Crowdfunding your way to a World Cup final - The Sports Agents

0:02Gabby Logan:This is a Global Player Original Podcast. It takes some athlete to win World Player of the Year when your team loses the World Cup final and you've just come back from an ACL injury. But that's exactly what Canada's Sophie De Goede did last year. The one prize the England women's rugby team didn't win. It's even more impressive considering Canada crowdfunded their way to the World Cup final, even bringing in players' partners to train with when numbers were dwindling due to injury. After that World Cup record crowd at Twickenham, has the Saracens' number eight seen the sport push on? And is she building a career to lead on from her family dynasty?

0:39Welcome to The Sports Agents.

0:48Gabby Logan:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Sophie, thanks so much for coming into The Sports Agents. Thanks for having me. It feels to me just like two minutes since we were on that pitch, you know, post-match celebrating with England. And of course, you know, I hate to say it, but sometimes you forget about the losers. And obviously Canada went into that game flawless and looking like they were going to be, you know, tough, tough opposition for England that day. how long does it take you to get over a defeat in a world cup final like that well I mean I think as a sportswoman you don't really I don't think we will necessarily get over it in that way but I think you move forward and you try to take the learnings and the lessons from it and for quite a few of us it took a while before we watched the game back because there was a real sense of devastation because we've been playing so well and then credit to England but I also felt like we beat ourselves a bit in that final match and we didn't play to our ability we didn't convert when we got into the 22.

1:53We didn't exit well or play on momentum. There was a little sense of stage fright almost. Yeah, I think we hadn't been in that before. I mean, I think the most crowd we'd played in front of was the semifinal the week prior. So then to go in front of 82 ,000, probably 80 ,000 of which are not cheering for you, was... And to arrive at the stadium with the crowds as they were lining your entrance as well. That must have been some feeling to walk into a stadium like that. Yeah. And I think for me personally, what I tried to do was just narrow the focus and think about I've walked into a stadium a million times before.

2:32I've walked out on a pitch a million times before. But in retrospect, maybe what I or we should have done is really tried to absorb that energy and play the role of the villain and kind of lean into that a bit more. But I think to come back to your first question, how do you get over that? I think it's those lessons that you take moving forward so that in four years time, we come at it with a different approach that hopefully enables us to play to our right level.

2:57Gabby Logan:I love that comment of maybe you should have played into the role of the villain a bit more, because even if you do that, you still have to be authentic, don't you? I suppose. Would it have been a comfortable role for a lot of you to step into? Yeah, I mean, I really do believe that because we feel as a Canadian team, like we're the underdog in every situation. We're the underfunded team. That was such a huge part of your story, wasn't it? We're being called the dark horses when we've been ranked second in the world for two years on the bounce. So you kind of, you start to develop a bit of an anger.

3:31And I think also as a sports person, you want to take things a little bit personally. Sometimes you want to create fights and personal attacks where maybe there weren't even meant to be. So I think there were things along that road that we really took personally. And I feel that if we had maybe leaned a bit more into that villain, it's us against the world, that maybe that could have been helpful in the final.

3:54Gabby Logan:Do you think as a group, and look, players will come and go, won't they, over the coming years. But do you think as a group, which will then pass down to future generations, that you will only see the benefit of that World Cup final four years time? that by the time you get to the next big tournament for you, you now as a group have that experience to draw on. And even if some people have moved on, you can pass that experience on to those coming through. Yeah, for sure. I think we can't just assume that that's going to happen, though. We have to go into our next tournament in Pacific 4 in April during the same window as the Women's Six Nations.

4:33And we have to talk about what happened and really kind of cement that those lessons and that ethos of who we are as a group and try to build that into our culture moving forward we've always had a really strong culture passed down from generation but now we have to kind of add this learning this scar into that culture and I think work through what it means for us as a team so that it does cement itself moving forward rather than just assuming that the few of us in the team that remain in four years are just going to be able to to carry that on we should say as well for for you personally there was a great moment of joy to be be told 30 seconds after the final whistle I believe that that you were world player of the year which says something because as we both know you know in the sports that we we also work in in football and they generally tend to choose those people kind of from the winning team you know um and so you know for you that must have been a moment a bittersweet moment but a moment of incredible joy.

5:29I mean, I think I was quite numb still from the final whistle and probably with about five, ten minutes to go in that game, we started to feel it slipping away. So you're still processing. But what I really appreciated was once I got off the stage from accepting the award, the whole team got around me and made it into a moment and almost forced me into appreciating what was happening. I mean, that's the mark of a good team. They literally lifted me up when I was in a kind of a low point or maybe not appreciating the moment as much as I should have. So I think now in retrospect, I've really appreciated that award and what it meant for the year of rehab that I had leading into it.

6:08But at the time I needed my teammates to lift me up.

6:11Gabby Logan:It's a very bizarre and quite uncomfortable position to put you in, actually, isn't it? When you think about it, yeah. I mean, actually, on the day I even felt that. it's you know because how can you when your teammates are all devastated be actually kind of going yes i am i am the greatest i don't think you can just you guys let me down yeah no no no i mean to be honest i'm i'm a little bit i can't really contribute sophie to this discussion because gabby tends to win all the awards and and i have to kind of support her for for that but but it but it is it is a bit it's difficult for you i would imagine in that situation well ultimately we play a team sport so would I trade in a world player of the year trophy to have won the world cup yeah like there's no doubt about it so you're mourning kind of the greater loss I guess the team loss in that moment and then you're supposed to be thrilled at the individual award you can't really have those two emotions at the same time so like I said kind of just a numb feeling and then in retrospect is when I've tried to appreciate it because in that moment it was a bit too awkward And even as someone who was hoping the Roses would get over the line, because I knew kind of how much it was actually bigger than just rugby in this country, wasn't it?

7:23Because they'd invested so much money, the RFU, in their women's team and their resources were incredible compared to you. And that was why it was a David and Goliath thing that if they hadn't got over the line, there was a worry and a fear, I think, in rugby that other nations would say, see, you invest this money and they still can't win a World Cup. And so it was almost validating the investment. So on the one hand, there was a kind of political kind of will for it to succeed. But I think like a lot of people, Canada became people's second team because, you know, you were playing such attractive rugby.

7:52And you personally, obviously, were just, you know, leading with these incredible individual performances. On top of being a flanker that kicks, which we very rarely see in world rugby. Zinzan Brook, the great all black men's player, used to kick as well. Johnny Eals. Yeah, a few of the all blacks used to do that. But you obviously were kind of a name that was emerging in this World Cup as well. And did you feel a responsibility for Canada because of the intention that had been kind of put on you as a team that was underfunded? Yeah. Almost. Oh, for sure. Firstly, if we had succeeded, it would have been in spite of a lack of funding.

8:25And it would have been because of the group that we have. But not because we weren't funded. That logic just doesn't make sense, I feel. But yeah, I think we had a real responsibility and we feel a real responsibility as a national women's team because our national men's team is not at the level that the other great rugby nations are. And so we are in this unique position where our women's team is the flagship team. Our women's team is the team that's trying to bring in revenue, that's trying to keep us relevant on a global stage and on a stage back home. Our women's team is currently the team that keeps rugby relevant in Canada and keeps Canada relevant in world rugby.

9:02So I think that's a really big responsibility and pressure. And we certainly felt that on our shoulders throughout the course of the tournament.

9:09Gabby Logan:You talk about them sort of keeping rugby relevant back home. How many of your international teammates are playing domestic rugby either over here or in Europe? There's 30 plus. We just had an overseas players camp last week. and yeah there's about 30 or so um that are playing probably around 25 in the PWR and a few more a handful more in France. Is that a problem do you think for in terms of the future of Canadian women's rugby or do you think actually if that's the way we have to get our you know our domestic game then we have to we have to travel? Yeah I think it's a reality right now we need to play top quality rugby and we also need to we can't be contracted we don't have the funds yet to be contract by our national union so if we want to make money and be professional rugby players we have to do it well where we get paid which is over here I think for back home we have to develop kind of a stepping stone league our university league is really strong but then I have friends when I was going through university that were 2021 going okay I'm retiring from sport well you have got another seven or eight years before you even reach your athletic peak so we need kind of a bridge domestic league that we're starting to build out over there and as that gets stronger and if we can put it in pockets of time where maybe a few of us can come home from the PWR or wherever and play in a couple of those games just to show the level and raise the level.

10:28I think there's a way to have both. Have you seen the impact of this World Cup on the PWR so far? Yeah, definitely. There's certainly been more people in the stands, but I think what it's really done is kind of bring in more sponsorship and eyeballs, not just at the grounds every weekend, but just in terms of creating personalities on social media, in terms of bringing more relevance to women's rugby in the greater sporting context um like i said more partnerships wanting to come in more excitement around the league hopefully maybe we can get a title sponsor soon or something like that and i think the world cup having such a big um event in england uh has really we've seen the knock-on effect so far but i think we'll see even more down the road hopefully

11:13Gabby Logan:it strikes me from the outside just when i look at results and and and see the old match on tt it strikes me as more competitive this season as in a greater competitive balance across the league would you agree with that it's way more competitive the only team unfortunately that's struggling right now is lesser but literally every other weekend there are teams that are winning and losing and back and forth I mean I think at least as of a week or two ago Bristol was the second worst ranking team in the league and we're the second best and they ran us right to the wire and they have some incredible you know former world player of the year Ray DeMont from New Zealand and really top quality star player factor there so yeah I think it's really competitive and the only issue I find with the PWR is we have these big breaks we had a big break over Christmas and a big break over the women's Six Nations so it makes it a bit harder to follow as a fan it does yeah but when we are going and rolling the competition is incredible it's tough isn't it competing with not just the fact that your league kind of has to, the PWR takes a break, that the football league is reaching its conclusion.

12:15So there's competition all over the place in terms of eyeballs on sport, isn't there? And that is the problem and the challenge, I guess, for rugby generally, isn't it? We talk about it a lot with regard to the men's game. The women's game obviously has had this amazing kind of growth and as you point to, really clever use of social media, kind of way ahead of the game with the men's. personalities wise yeah and what's your kind of take on that there was a bit of controversy last year the england wales game when some of the you know the wales players were doing dances and stuff when they'd had a massive defeat and welsh fans felt that was disrespectful but then you know the argument back was they love their sport they just want to promote it where do you sit on all that yeah i mean i think i can only say what my my personal opinion is on it and to me i think you have to decide what your number one job is and my number one job is to be a rugby player And so that's first and foremost for me is to be a competitor.

13:08And then I developed my social personality, et cetera, on top of that. And I think for some people, like for Alona, her social personality, that is her number one job. It has to be her number one job. She's incredible at it. And being a rugby player sometimes will come first, but sometimes might have to be prioritized second to that. I think it's incredible how she's able to balance both of those. but I think for all of us right now sometimes the social stuff is actually more lucrative so you kind of have to decide what your priority is for me that priority will always be rugby but I think each player because we don't always get paid the best for the rugby stuff has to decide where they want to put their priorities So interesting Chappers isn't it?

13:47But it's a real consideration isn't it? If you're not being paid anywhere near what you could possibly be paid if you're a man playing in club rugby in this country and rugby is a very dangerous sport you don't know how long your career is going to be you know and so you're really having to sit down and have a good thing can't you yeah what your priorities are i think the thought was always there around how do you pursue maybe a secondary career while you're playing rugby how do you get an education so that you can go into potentially the working world post rugby but now the option is well actually how do i develop a social media platform so that I can use that after rugby or even during rugby to make some extra cash.

14:27I suppose Mark asked you the question about how the benefits or the future that you will have learned from this World Cup. I think one of the things that maybe would be a marker of success would be having 15-15 training sessions without having to bring people's boyfriends in. I thought that was a rather innovative way of making up the numbers. Just tell the story. Yeah, well, we have what we call them training partners. They are. They are literally partners that are training with us. Injuries come up during World Cup, and there's a lot of regulations around who you can and can't bring in. But we have people's, you know, boyfriends that are here, girlfriends that are traveling with the team to play, to watch games every weekend.

15:11And sometimes we were short numbers in training and started with, you know, them just coming to bring water on because we're a bit short-staffed compared to other nations sometimes. And so we're asking our athletic therapists, for example, to do five different jobs. So if someone's, you know, boyfriend's hanging out down the street anyways, they might as well come in and carry the waters. So and then, you know, we had a couple injuries crop up and things like that. And so we had training partners come in. And I honestly think it added to the atmosphere of the team and that we're all in this together.

15:44And, you know, we have support from all different angles.

15:47Gabby Logan:There are positives. I mean, there are positives there, aren't there? We're all in this together and, you know, one huge family that's all kind of pulling in the same direction. But elite sport level, there comes a point where you don't want to be doing that at every major tournament. maybe I think if you ask Alex Osterberry came in and was doing some training with us and he got involved in a mall he's our Saracens women's head coach and he was an assistant coach for Canada at the World Cup and we got some of our coaches to train with us a little bit he got involved in a mall and someone just like whacked him right in the ribs so I'm sure he would also advocate for not having coaches train it's been kind of written the stars that this would be your career both your parents captained Canada didn't they so you know at rugby yeah so you you've grown up with it since you were a very very small child yes and you've been thrown around and tackled for a long time yeah no I've always loved it um I grew up on a rugby pitch my parents coaching or playing on the weekend and going down every Saturday was a rugby day and I think that's unique in Canada so I feel really fortunate to have had the opportunity to do that and so many leadership and life and sport lessons passed down to me from them along the way.

17:00And I think it also gives me great perspective. I mean, my mom was our first woman's captain in 1987, played in our first Canadian game against the US. And her stories of that time and how grateful they were to just, you know, get some kit, even though it was men's sizing and things like that versus, you know, how grateful we should be for what we receive now, while we continue to push forward so that in 30 years from And now it's, you know, we've made strides, I don't know, 20 fold, 30 fold from where she was. Can we do that? Can I do that for the next generation, for my own kids that come through?

17:34So, yeah, I think it gives me great perspective to have heard about their careers. I imagine, Mark, I thought my house was quite competitive. I imagine a Diggity household is, yeah, it's fun on board games. Your house is competitive.

17:50We're competing now over whose house is more competitive. Yeah, no, exactly. Let's have an arm wrestle. Maybe not. So whereabouts in Canada did you grow up? West coast of Canada, yeah. Victoria is... Is the stronghold, isn't it? Stronghold, just basically because of weather. It's more similar in weather to what you guys experience here in the UK, so we can play all year round. Do you know Gareth Rees? So he was at Wasps with Kenny Chappers, a great Canadian rugby player, who was brought up, of course, playing NFL as well. So had this unbelievable throw. He was kind of like the modern throw-ins that have kind of like re-emerged in football.

18:25He just could like, he could pass the ball kind of like, you know, the length of the pitch almost. So yeah, he was a great guy. And I think he's also been working a little bit around the women's game. Gareth was one of like the first kind of Canadian rugby personalities that really made it big. And I think Gareth came in his era was a really positive era for men's rugby in Canada. We were competing really well. It was kind of right at the bridge of professionalism. And then unfortunately, since then, we've struggled to stay competitive on the men's side. What's happened with the men's game then?

18:56Well I think professionalism has, you might argue that it hasn't quite taken off with some issues with the club system over here but compared to what it's like back home it's really taken off abroad in what you would call like traditional rugby playing nations and we haven't been able to sustain that back home because there just hasn't been the money been able to put into it because it's not a premier sport. So the next World Cup is Australia and the Rugby World Cup after that for the men is Canada and the US. So it seems like an opportunity, doesn't it? It does. And thankfully for our men, we made this next World Cup, which is really big.

19:32Well, I think there's a concern for us on the women's side that the men kind of started to fall off as professionalism became greater. And then as professionalism is now growing on the women's side, we don't want our women to fall off and follow that same arc. It is definitely a warning sign, which is, I think, again, why we felt so much pressure going into that World Cup to make sure that we perform well to keep the relevancy in our country. Just a final thing because obviously you play at Saracens with some of the best players in the England team in the England set up. It's a very, very professional set up.

20:05If things in training kind of, you know, are getting up, do you just go, I'm World Player of the Year guys so did you pull rank with them? No, I wouldn't be very Canadian if you would. When you were busy at the beginning actually describing kind of perhaps needing to play more of the villain i was thinking but canadians are so nice yeah i think we're nice until we get on the pitch and then but at series those are my teammates so i i try to learn from them i think that's what's really neat about playing in the pwr there's so many different internationals and that's the reason why i first came over here five years ago was because i wanted to to um selfishly steal from poppy cleel and marley packer and as a back row player and try to understand more what they were doing to bring them at the highest level and um so that's what i try to do at series still.

20:50I say you've done that fairly successfully. So congratulations on your personal success. And hopefully Canada will be right there in the next World Cup final. Thanks very much. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

21:01Gabby Logan:The Sports Agents.

21:06Gabby Logan:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. On Thursday's episode, we look back at what has been something of a disastrous week for goalkeepers in the Champions League. One in particular, Antonin Kinski, of course, the Spurs goalkeeper was subbed after a disastrous 17 minutes. And of course, he's had much sympathy about that. And in particular, Igor Tudor's behaviour around that has been questioned. So we brought on Brad Friedel to the podcast, former Spurs, Liverpool, Aston Villa and USA goalkeeper to talk a bit more about it. When you get to Premier League level, every goalkeeper can shot stop.

21:41Gabby Logan:Every goalkeeper can can collect crosses. every goalkeeper you know some are better than others but you have a you have a good technical ability to be a number one two or three goalkeeper at Premier League level that's a fact what separates the the real top ones are two things consistency and then how you recover from mistake or how you recover from criticism from your teammates from the fans etc and it takes a mental strength to do that do I think Kinski can come out of this yes I do do I think it's at Tottenham no I think this is a big hit, one that's really difficult to recover from. I think him going on loan or going to another club, I think he can resurrect his career for sure.

22:25Gabby Logan:But the confidence levels for a goalkeeper's life are hugely important. Another varied week on the Sports Agents. On Tuesday, we spoke to the former Wales rugby captain, Sam Warburton, on the state of Welsh rugby. With Wales, I look at the analogy of Fiji. So, Fiji don't have the infrastructure to have a domestic league. Their economy obviously wouldn't be able to sustain it for obvious reasons. Where they are in the world geographically, they've got a lot against them. But they don't use that as an excuse. They can still find a squad of 12 killer players to be arguably the best team in the world at sevens.

23:06Gabby Logan:now i think of that same analogy with wales we we don't have the economy of scale and economy of england and the player base of england france south africa and all these teams but i refuse to accept that with the right pathway system with enough provision with enough feet on the ground that we can't find 15 to 23 players who can fill a national side and be competitive at the world stage that's it for another week on the sports agents if you've been listening to this on the news Agents feed. You can just search for The Sports Agents to listen to those episodes in full on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts.

23:41And remember, please hit subscribe or follow. Keep getting in touch on email thesportsagentsatglobal.com, on social media, or via the link in the show notes. We've got new episodes for you every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Thanks for listening. The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.