David Blunkett on how Keir Starmer can save his premiership

0:02David Blunkett:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:06Jon:Oh, I'm an optimist. I wouldn't have been a member of the Labour Party, God help me, for what now, 63 years? You're giving stuff away here. 63 years if I wasn't an optimist. I've been through hell and back. I've been on the heights of success and the lows, the valleys of despair. But I still remain absolutely an optimist, both about my party, about the government and about our country. And in the end, it is all of us, the country that needs to change and not just government.

0:44David Blunkett:That is David Blunkett, Lord Blunkett, former Home Secretary, former Work and Pensions Secretary, former Education Secretary, truly one of the giants of the Labour movement. a minister throughout the Blair years who suffered resignations but came back and actually earned the respect of people across the aisle. When Blunkett was a backbencher and David Cameron was the prime minister, Blunkett asked Cameron a question. And Cameron started by replying, he is a remarkable politician, a remarkable man. He is battle hardened. But even though he is 78 years old now and sitting in the House of Lords, politics still burns inside him with a bright intensity.

1:32David Blunkett:And his displeasure at the Starmer government is not so much that they're not doing it right, but he feels they're not getting on top of the civil service and getting the machinery to work for the people. He is candid. He is forthright. He is a critical friend. And Cameron was right. He is a remarkable man. Welcome to the News Agents.

2:04David Blunkett:The News Agents. Well, we're joined in the studio now by Lord Blunkett, David Blunkett, and by Barley, who is resting peacefully at his feet.

2:15Jon:Barley is the guide dog. I ought to explain that. Otherwise, people might have thought I'd brought somebody in. Total stranger. Lay them out, yeah.

2:24David Blunkett:Exactly. OK, well, I should have done... Thank you for doing my job, which is that you should paint a proper picture, and I hadn't done that. But Barley is a very beautiful dog and sitting there very quietly. David, it's good to see you. Thank you, John. And thanks very much indeed for coming into the studio. Can you make head or tail of what is going on right now at Number 10 and in the government?

2:44Jon:Now, I think the world is crazy and then it gets crazier. And you just wonder, please, please, let's get some stability, which is what we promised and what we need. We'd had enough turmoil and instability to last us a lifetime with Boris and then this trust, etc. etc and here we are fighting amongst ourselves the government lighting its own fires rather than waiting for somebody else to do it and yet things are going on underneath that are being missed so it's a double whammy really you give the impression of of things being out of hand and at the same time you you knock out the good things that you're doing you knock out the announcement you you avoid people getting a hearing of it.

3:31David Blunkett:But can you make sense? Look, you know how government works. You've been at the top of government. You had a succession of ministerial posts. You were close to the centre of power. What is going on in 10 Downing Street today? Because for all the problems that there were, you know, during your time, during the Blair years, it feels sort of just so different now.

3:52Jon:well to be fair i mean i've got to be fair not just trying to be fair we didn't come in on the back of brexit we didn't come in on the back of covid and maybe we'll talk about that the kind of legacy that that's left us not least in terms of the hundreds of billions of borrowing that it took to put people on furlough and give the loans and what have you so we were in a different position the main other thing that we had was preparation we had actually done a lot of policy work and preparation before 97 which stood us in very good stead and i think people around kia starmer thought they'd done it but they actually hadn't they thought that a vague idea of what you wanted to do was actually policy and it isn't and so i think over the last 17 months they've been fighting to assert themselves over the civil service who after 14 years have got their own ideas i mean you know the the typical thing of going in and uh being told the minister being told but this isn't departmental policy minister and there's a lot of that yes minister stuff about so learning to do it getting control being very clear what you want to do and then shifting it and again back to brexit there's a total inertia in the system well okay i mean

5:21David Blunkett:there those are big structural reasons i mean was it i want to come back to what's happening now but i just just on that point you've just made about lack of preparation i i remember all the work that was going on with jonathan powell who you know in government became blair's chief of staff and you know meetings with the departments meeting with the think tanks devising the policies that you would implement you know pretty soon after coming into power was it negligence that that work

5:47Jon:wasn't put in no i think partly that there was a an expectation that we couldn't pull it off in 2024 so all the attention was on crawling back from the disaster of the election in 2019 and that meant that the thinking was all about winning and winning in the end with a very small proportion of the total electorate because only 60 % voted and we got 34 % of them so we were aiming at a target audience in circumstances where the Conservatives were going to lose I mean it is now clear isn't it to us with the benefit of hindsight that what people said in july 2024 was we've had enough of you from land's end to john at groats so right across the country in places we'd never have expected to win people said we've had enough and i don't think people before the election had fully clocked that was the case in fact they were still arguing after the election as though people hadn't got the message they were still telling that the awful truth about the economy and the misery and we had the statement at the end of july sure three weeks in and all of that indicated that people hadn't understood what the electorate were thinking and feeling and what they needed was uplift they wanted hope they wanted trajectory they wanted urgency in the system and we weren't adjusting the government weren't adjusting fast enough to that And Keir Starmer's admitted it, that, you know, the early part of the misery that we were purveying was the wrong message.

7:31David Blunkett:So the number 10 operation strikes me that it was all about winning, reversing what happened in 2019, winning in 2024, fighting a lot of internal battles within the Labour Party, marginalising the Corbynistas and all that sort of thing. but that still seems to be going on that there still seems to be you know why are you briefing about west streeting the health secretary when he's about to make announcements on the latest

7:58Jon:progress he's made i think it's an excellent question i mean when i've heard people speak senior people have remained in downing street because there's been an enormous amount of churn they are still talking as though we were running up to july last year and somehow we've got to get out of that you mentioned Jonathan Powell a minute ago John I mean the great thing about Jonathan Powell in his current role with his international hat on helping Keir with international security and everything that goes around it that is the bit that has worked Keir Starmer's reputation and the reputation of the UK has been lifted since the general election on the international scene whether it's defence and security whether it's on trade the the job's being done and people are recognising it if only if only we could translate that to the domestic agenda and because you mentioned Jonathan Powell who I didn't always get on with but is a superb professional what we need and I don't think he'd want to do it in fact I know he said he doesn't but we need a Jonathan Powell in Downing Street for the domestic policy.

9:10David Blunkett:Right. So you talk about that. The person that does that now is Morgan McSweeney, who's the chief of staff to Keir Starmer. While we're on Jonathan Powell, when I was a lobby correspondent at Westminster during the Blair years, I knew Jonathan. He never spoke to journalists. Ever? Yeah, just absolutely not. If you wanted to find out what was happening in Downing Street, you spoke to Alistair Campbell. exactly why is Morgan McSweeney the current chief of staff apparently briefing journalists dripping poison when this is something that Keir Starmer doesn't want well if I could answer that

9:44Jon:question I'd be firstly I'd be much closer to the operation than I am so let let me not pretend and secondly I'd have been able to persuade Keir Starmer to do something about it I'm not in a So I'm not ducking your question. You floated it as a rhetorical question. So I'm floating it back. Who on earth could have made this up? So I think Keir is incredibly loyal to people who have worked with him over years. Finding the right niche for them. I'm not talking necessarily about ditching them because he doesn't want to do that. But finding the right niche for people is about building a team. and we've still got time to do it.

10:29Jon:But I think if Keir were sat with us now, I would say you can do it. You're doing it internationally. Let's replicate that on the domestic front and let's win people over. Because the only way that Keir Starmer can stop a challenge in the future to his premiership is by getting the act together. It's about delivering, being competent, being seen to be generating not only the activity that's going on, but the narrative that explains to people what's going on under the surface. I mean, I could list you and I won't because it would drive your podcast audience completely mad. But the enormous amount of things that have either started or have already been put in place that nobody knows about and they don't know about it because all the froth that goes on and the lack of a clear message that comes out.

11:26Jon:And to get a hearing these days, but particularly with social media, you need that very focused, laser-like, you know, programme.

11:36David Blunkett:So let me ask you two specifics. Should Morgan McSweeney go as Chief of Staff?

11:42Jon:Well, if I were Keir Starmer, I would say to Morgan, look, you've got great skills. you helped enormously with me in building a winning team before the election now's the time for me to find you another role that you're good at and I will bring someone in with the overall experience that we need to be the chief of staff it's a particular role it's about knowing about government and managing it's about having been in a senior position where you've had to not only run the show but manage people well and that isn't rocket science but it's a particular skill and we're all we all have different skills I mean my my skill was very different say to Tony Blair's which is why when he built a team, he was looking for people who complemented what he could do.

12:42Jon:Sure.

12:43David Blunkett:And given the current trajectory, another specific question, do you think Keir Starmer is in serious trouble and will be replaced?

12:52Jon:I think he'd be in serious trouble if we don't get our act together, because the opinion polls are awful. The feeling of bewilderment by the electorate, I put it no stronger than that, is palpable. we have a very focused alternative to the traditional two-party system with not only reform but obviously with the greens and the liberal democrats so if people have a choice that they feel comfortable with then you've got a real challenge to win them back it's not impossible I mean goodness me if we if we don't and this is a challenge for those who would vote Lib Dem or Green or even the old, you know, traditional Macmillan, Israeli type conservatives.

13:41Jon:If we don't get our act together in the next three years, who is it? I just posed this question. Who is it that is actually really going to benefit? It's going to be Nigel Farage. So we shouldn't fear him, but we should take him on. And by doing that, win people back. And I come back to it. It's about putting the good policies together. It's about overcoming this lethargy and inertia in the system. The civil service are working, God bless them, at a fraction of the rate that they were in 97 when we came in with the energy and drive that went with it. They have this awful phrase that has started to inculcate speeches.

14:28Jon:It's called, we are working at pace. What a load of rubbish. I mean, they've got another one, which is we stand ready, which means we got up this morning. You know, we get new words coming in like agency that nobody out there knows what the hell we're talking about. So it's not, I said a minute or two ago, it's not rocket science but it will take a material shift to actually move gears, that's what we need to do I'm answering all your questions as honestly and robustly as I can

15:04David Blunkett:David, this is the joy of a podcast where you can have a proper conversation about politics and ideas and what is going on and it's a joy to have you here doing that right now you can hear a little rattle that's Barley having a scratch

15:17Jon:That's Barley having a scratch. He says he's heard it all before.

15:20David Blunkett:I think Barley's worried you're being too honest in your replies. Well, I may be.

15:25Jon:For my own good, that is.

15:27David Blunkett:OK, well, let me ask you another question then, which is you've said what needs to happen to turn this around. Do you think that Keir Starmer has got the political skills to do that? You know, you look at what Blair did and the way he operated and you compare it to the way... Take the welfare reform thing, which gets voted down, no preparation Labour backbenchers are angry there's no attempt to kind of mollify them there's no good narrative about why these welfare changes are being made and despite a huge majority Labour has to back down I I so narrow question has Keir Starmer got what it takes yes but it doesn't take

16:05Jon:one individual the the great strength of Tony Blair was that he put a team together and allowed them to get on with things and to be able to think through collectively how to do it so whilst I mean I've remained a friend of Tony's when he was being slagged off I was one of the people who continued to defend him because I think he was a brilliant prime minister and history will accord him that status but one of his great strengths apart from intuition knowing how people felt and reacted and being able to reach out to people who Labour had not touched for a very long time was building a team and I mentioned Keir's performance internationally he has demonstrated with that that he can do it but he's got to he's got to avoid this terrible where is Keir he's not here stuff by really focusing now because he's had to focus on international affairs for the last 12 16 months now i think is the moment to say i'm not i'm not going to anything unless i really have to i'm going to send other colleagues and concentrate on building a team around him in downing street but more importantly from my point of view building the political team and allowing them to get on with it instead of kids in downing street ringing them up and telling them what they should be doing.

17:37Jon:That is the wrong way round. When anybody rang me up from Downing Street or if the private secretary came in and said, Downing Street doesn't like this, my answer was, who? There isn't a Downing Street. There are individuals. Do they know more than I knew? Were they clever than me? Did they have more political nous than I had? Well, actually, I was arrogant to believe that they didn't. so i used to ring tony and say is this your will or has somebody misinterpreted it and i'd normally get the answer get on with it what's so interesting of what i hear about the current

18:13David Blunkett:operation and the way it works is that kirsten has contracted out policy and politics to morgan mcsweeney he's contracted out economy to rachel reeves he's contracted out communications to tim Allen, who you'll know who's come back in from the Blair years. And that he doesn't, he's not involved in any of it. It all passes him by. And that's why you end up with Morgan McSweeney apparently briefing press that, you know, West Streeting's got to wind his neck in.

18:42Jon:Well, I don't know whether that's true, but in a perverse way, I'll just turn this on its head. I hope for the immediate past, you are right. because if you're right, then Keir getting engaged on a minute-by-minute basis, actually taking control and working with political colleagues will be the answer out of this because if you're wrong, then there's a real implication there that would worry me greatly.

19:13David Blunkett:And we'll hear more from David Blunkett after the break.

19:23David Blunkett:With award-winning journalists at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff. Discover how today's story affects your life.

19:37Jon:Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app.

19:41David Blunkett:LBC. Leading Britain's conversation.

19:49David Blunkett:The News Agents. so we've got the budget coming up in two weeks time and it looks like rachel reeves is going to clearly break the manifesto pledge of no rise in income tax it's a hell of a calculation to make because on the one hand it's the simplest and most obvious thing to do and look to use the vogue phrase there's been a lot of pitch rolling on that right now what would you say i'd say

20:20Jon:firstly take a long view i think we've got ourselves in a real pickle with the office for budget responsibility and their impact on the markets i don't ever remember a government and i've challenged economists on this believing that they could forecast so-called i mean so-called because it was never invented until recently, headroom in four years' time. Chancellors didn't put themselves under such restriction. Even Osborne, George Osborne, who brought this Office of Budget Responsibility in in 2013 as a monetarist restrictive measure because he believed in monetarism. I don't. so firstly we've got to be much more long-term ambitious about how we can balance the books I agree we've got to balance the books and therefore the fiscal rules are self-imposed secondly what do the OBR this this three-man team with a secretariat behind them it is three men by the way what what do they know that the rest of us don't know that economists can't make judgments on given the uncertainties of the impact of artificial intelligence of that improvement in productivity in re-skilling the nation what would they know that we don't know and then thirdly if you really do believe that you've got to take drastic measures that will affect the attitude of the bond markets and the algorithms that go with it.