Dictators, Invaders and Trump's motley crew on the Board of Peace

0:02Jon Sopel:This is a Global Player original podcast. Today we're announcing more details regarding the Board of Peace, so important. This board has the chance to be one of the most consequential bodies ever created. And it's my enormous honour to serve as its chairman. I was very honoured when they asked me to do it. We had an idea to do it and then they came and they said, you be the chairman. When they asked me to do it, there was no they. There was no election. Donald Trump, let's be candid about this, appointed himself to be the chairman of the Board of Peace. And when he decides to stand down, he will choose the successor.

0:45We want names, Donald. We want to know who elected you to be the chairman of the Board of Peace And what on earth is it? He's not right to say that every country wants to join. There is a huge amount of unease about being part of this Board of Peace because it will include Russia and Belarus and other states that we might once have called an axis of evil. Is he trying to set up a competitor to the UN? Welcome to the newsagents.

1:22Jon Sopel:the news agents it's john it's emily and honestly the board of peace which has obviously been launched with some fanfare in davos where donald trump is price of admission if you want to join the board of peace is one billion dollars not entirely clear where the one billion dollars goes to. I'm sure accounts will be published. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. It's much more than my season ticket for Tottenham Hotspur. And at least I get to watch football. Not very good football, but I get to watch football. I don't know quite what anyone's getting for this billion dollars that everyone is paying.

1:59Jon Sopel:And the New York Times just has this delicious line in it where it talks about the Board of Peace and how it's going to work. And it says, one man has the power to veto decisions, approve the agenda, invite members, dissolve the board entirely and designate his own successor. There are no prizes for guessing who that person is. So it's a board of peace that is more like a pyramid, I think. Yeah. With one emperor at the top. Look, there are two ways of seeing the board of peace. One is as a continuation of the whole Gaza process. You know, Trump did. He legitimately got the hostages out of Gaza.

2:42He got those that were still held released. He managed to get, I think, nearly all of the bodies of the deceased back. And this was meant to be the next stage, the rebuilding of Gaza. So it came from a place which actually was sort of cemented in reality. And if you look at what his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is trying to do, he's saying, this is our plan for rebuilding Gaza. And we want to start in the south. It will be rebuilt in phases. He kind of presented slides. He sort of talked to the audience. We have got to plan his term is for catastrophic success. And that is why you'll see people like Netanyahu come on board because he basically thinks that this is a process that will favour Israel.

3:25I don't think there is a Palestinian representative on this. And when you're talking about the entrance fee, that's probably why it's been placed so high, because it is a bar to those who would be part of this process, who want to be at the table and won't be able to afford it. And so then you actually have to look at the breakdown of who said yes and who has said no. And so far we have Erdogan's Turkey, tick. We have Saudi Arabia, tick. I think Putin has agreed. I think Lukashenko, Belarus. The Americans have reported that Putin has agreed. Exactly. Who knows? And Britain has said no. and Maloney, who is in a very sort of clever, safe situation in Italy, the Italian constitution won't actually let them sign up to international bodies, I think, without constitutional sign off from the parliament.

4:13She said she'd like to sit on it as an observer. So there are all these sort of hideous elephant traps for particularly Western leaders, for EU leaders, who just think, sorry, we've just spent five years getting Putin out of these bodies. why are we going towards a table that would have the world's biggest tyrant at it?

4:35Jon Sopel:Look, there were 20 or so nations who stood with Donald Trump today for whom the word motley was designed because it was a motley bunch of people. And for whom the word peace was not. Yeah, and nations that have not got maybe the most impeccable record when it comes to human rights, when it comes to democracy, when it comes to freedom of speech, when it comes to due process, all those things that liberal democratic nations are supposed to like. And that is why, from Europe, the only two nations that have signed up to it are Viktor Orban's Hungary and Bulgaria. No one else from Europe is anywhere near this.

5:17Jon Sopel:And you can see, again, this is Trump the disruptor. And so today we heard from our Foreign Secretary, Yvette Cooper, about why Britain is not standing with all those others. We won't be one of the signatories today because this is about a legal treaty that raises much broader issues. And we do also have concerns about President Putin being part of something which is talking about peace when we have still not seen any signs from Putin that there will be a commitment to peace in Ukraine. And to be honest, that is also what we should be talking about. So we will continue to support very practical issues around Gaza and making sure that we can get the Palestinian committee set up.

6:00What I love is the incredibly sort of downplayed, practical, sort of shopping list reason that Yvette Cooper just gave for why it might not be an entirely good idea for us to enter into this board of peace with some of our biggest security threats and, dare we say, enemies. It is an extraordinary thing to do. Let's stand back for one minute and see what Donald Trump is trying to do. He went to Davos yesterday. He slagged off the UN. I don't know why they didn't help. I don't know why they don't like me. He slagged off all his European and NATO allies. Oh, they've got to get themselves sorted out.

6:36They've got terrible economies, too many windmills, blah, blah, blah. And then he's essentially trying to set up his alternative UN. He wants to be, I think, head of his own Trump nations. I mean, the Board of Peace is Trump's vision of the United Nations run by him. The fact that he sees himself as a unifier is hilarious. The fact he sees himself as a peacemaker is hilarious. I mean, I genuinely don't know whether in his mind he thinks he is those things and cannot see the chaos and the dissent and the unease that he sows amongst people who have been America's closest allies, basically, for the last hundred years.

7:19but right now to hear Yvette Cooper trying to explain to the rest of our country why it does sound attractive but I think we're going to pause here we don't necessarily want to be you know having cups of tea with Putin is an extraordinary place to be because your own formerly closest ally has dumped you in it.

7:38Jon Sopel:Yeah I mean look the idea of Putin sitting on a board of peace when for the past four years he's been bombing the shit out of Ukraine and still is bombing the shit out of Ukraine and trying to freeze them to death by knocking out all the energies, you know, the power stations so that they cannot have electricity and they cannot heat their homes. And yeah, I'm going to I'm going to pronounce on peace for the Middle East. Come off it. I think there's an element with Trump, which we've often discussed before, of vengeance. And I was at the United Nations on the East River when Donald Trump was there for the General Assembly during his first term and his first address and the people in the audience were laughing laughing at him not laughing with him laughing at some of the preposterous things that he was saying and now he's thinking well screw you i'm going to undermine the united nations because he's fundamentally antipathetical to a broad-based multilateral institution like the un i mean just to go back to your question of vengeance do you Remember who really unseated him at the UN last year?

8:39The escalator and the autocue. He was so angry that the escalator stopped working when he was on it. He was so angry that he couldn't read the autocue. It's not impossible that all this is part of the retribution. Of course. Damn that escalator. Damn that autocue. I'm going to start my own UN. And that's kind of where you end up. So, I mean, one of the questions, when we first started to talk about the 20-point Gaza peace plan, which came from sort of nominally from Trump, probably closer to Jared Kushner and Blair, was whether Blair would have a position on it. Because Blair wants to be in the middle of the reconstruction of the Middle East.

9:18I mean, ironies aside, he will go down in history in two ways, I think. One, as the only Labour leader of this century, of this country, to win three terms in a row. And as the kind of co-architect of the Iraq war. And so much that Blair has been doing since he left office has been, you know, if you want to get sort of pop psychotherapist about it, has been trying to sort of, yeah, work out how he can he can sort of make amends or sort of stay invested in this region. So I think it's really important to him that he sees himself as part of the rebuilding of Gaza or the resettling of Israel and Palestine, reshaping of the Middle East.

9:59and yet what does he say now? Is he going to sit alongside Lukashenko and Putin and Millay and Erdogan? Does that, I mean, maybe he will. Maybe he'll just go, well, you've got to be in the room to, you know, that's how I've always played it. You've got to be in the room to win it.

10:13Jon Sopel:I think that would be entirely his outlook, but I do think it is uncomfortable that, you know, you rightly say that getting the hostages out from Gaza was a huge achievement. There has been a ceasefire of sorts since then. Of course, there have been breaches, you know and there are reports of atrocities on both sides that are still continued so yet the peace plan and that 20 point peace plan had blair's fingerprints all over it it was quite thought through it was about the palestinian rights as well it was not about moving palestinians and so there was an awful lot that you could see where blair's input had been vital and therefore not surprising that donald trump would want to have tony blair on the board of peace but exactly as you say, sitting next to Viktor Orban, standing next to, you know, Vladimir Putin if he joins, or Lukashenko or Javier Millet.

11:07Jon Sopel:But then, to be fair, Blair spends a lot of time with Middle East dictators, leaders, whatever. OK, but there are those who are kind of, you know, trying to make progress and actively engaged. And it's just whether this is purely about Gaza or whether Trump has ambitions for his Board of Peace to be something much, much bigger and much more of a threat to the united nations and i have every belief that he isn't just satisfied with this being about gaza donald trump wants to be the you know the man who delivers peace to the world he doesn't care on whose terms he's a bored man i know we think maybe differently on this but i just see a man who's like just kind of flicking over you know the monopoly pieces now just sort of throwing the money in the air he's kind of done with america he's kind of created chaos in europe He's told NATO that he doesn't really believe they'd ever come and help him.

11:59It's just more of the same as it's kind of boredom.

12:02Jon Sopel:I don't. Yeah, I disagree with that. I think there is an I think that there is some strategy in what Donald Trump does. I think there is, you know, I don't think you could ever say there is Trumpism. It's, you know, in terms of foreign policy, he's not following whatever kind of policy. It's not the Monroe Doctrine. It's not the Donrow Doctrine. Trump will do what he wants to do. He does believe that he is an architect of peace. He wants to be seen as this person who heals the divisions of the world. The problem is he's absolutely transactional. He can change his mind in a moment on what he thinks is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do.

12:37Jon Sopel:We've seen that over Gaza. We've seen that over Ukraine, where he just flips and flops about whose side he thinks he's on and who he thinks should prevail. There was never any question of whose side Trump was on in the Ukraine war. We saw how he treated, how he talked to Zelensky, and we saw how little he did to ever stop Putin. And if you listen to his speech in the hall this morning, he is making very clear who his friends are. Remember who is on stage with him, Malay of Argentina, Orban, the Indonesian prime minister. Just listen to how he talks about those fellows. They're really great. They're friends of mine.

13:17Jon Sopel:Let me see. Yeah, every one of them is a friend of mine. A couple, let's see, a couple I like, a couple I don't like. No, I like, actually, this group, I like every single one of them. Can you believe it? Usually I have about two or three that I can't stand. We can. Honestly, I can believe that he likes every one of them when they've each paid a billion pounds. And when he's invited them onto the stage. so he's got his own team team trump yeah and team united nations i will go back to the use of the word i used earlier motley a right motley bunch of people who've got no great interests in democracy or human rights or any of those things the one thing i would say is you don't have to look very far to say i mean escalator jokes aside autocue jokes aside the un does bugger all right I mean, there is the most extraordinary humanitarian catastrophe.

14:15There is the most extraordinary act of tyrannical aggression. And 10 days later, you know, the head of the UN says, we condemn this act of aggression. Oh, my God, I'm trembling now. I'm absolutely freaking out in my seat. And I think if there's, as ever, it's not what Trump does. He's terrible at solutions, but he's very good at diagnosis. And if really what he's telling us is that the UN isn't fit for purpose anymore, Yeah, I think we know that. I think we do know that, you know. And if that then rebounds, reverberates on people saying we did actually like the world order, we did like a sense of security.

14:51But yeah, we can't we can't change the world with a six month long PowerPoint.

14:56Jon Sopel:Yeah, exactly. Look, what Donald Trump does brilliantly is disrupt. He has disrupted NATO. And as a result, NATO is now spending far more on its defence. The member states are spending far more pledging to. Well, and in a lot of cases are spending much more than they were. Germany's changed its borrowing rules. Britain is going to spend 2.5 percent of its GDP on defence. You know, these are firm pledges that have been made as a result of Donald Trump's bullying, his big stick, his aggression, his disruption. And maybe, maybe he's doing the same to an organisation that is equally ripe for reform, the United Nations.

15:34Jon Sopel:And if anyone's had any dealings with the UN or try to do anything alongside the UN, the bureaucracy, the form filling is absolutely mind boggling. And the goals of the UN are noble and worthwhile. And they have played a role in keeping peace in the world. I mean, you know, not perfect by any means. Not recently, but not recently. And so Donald Trump is throwing down a gauntlet. And I wonder whether the UN will respond in the same way that NATO is now having to respond. We'll be back in a moment talking to the historian and NATO insider Peter Frankopan about what Trump actually achieved in Greenland.

16:26And around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff.

16:33Jon Sopel:Discover how today's story affects your life. Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation. What up, y 'all? It's your girl, Jess Hilarious. Have you ever had an energy drink that makes you feel like your head is about to explode? Liquid Death now makes a better-for-you energy drink. Liquid Death sparkling energy feels like a coffee. not an electric chair. It has zero sugar and just five calories. No sucralose, aspartame, and artificial flavors and dyes. Plus, it has essential vitamins. You can find it in four delicious flavors that has a clean taste.

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17:47Jon Sopel:The News Agents. this time yesterday when we recorded the podcast we had just listened to donald trump say he had to have greenland he had to have right title and ownership anything short of that would be unacceptable last night on truth social tariffs were being abandoned a deal had nearly been done but it seems that greenland is still greenland as part of the kingdom of denmark so has trump done a taco trump always chickens out well with us is historian friend of the podcast all-round brilliant person peter frankopan hello hi there hello what do you make of it i think nobody knows i mean there's a framework that trump says is the best deal he's ever done it's all fantastic the white house press spokeswoman caroline levitt has said this is going to be a permanent deal that's going to last forever and come at no cost the united states so that doesn't sound to me particularly plausible.

18:45I think Trump has got spooked by the fact that I don't think he's realised how many feathers he's ruffled in Europe. So this is slightly different to him using coercion, getting something that he wants and then settling back down. I think he's set the cat amongst the pigeons so severely now that he's got to now backpedal. And if he has chickened out, you know, the problem with Trump is he can re-escalate at any moment in time. You know, he keeps reopening agreements and deals. So it's whether he's ready to let this one drop. But I don't think there's anything achievable that looks like a big win to me.

19:17So can we just look at what he thinks he's won, which is an extended lease on the bases or on a base in Greenland with which he could do more kind of military security operations. Is that something that he didn't have before? I mean, has anything actually changed? Has Denmark, has Greenland given anything up? No, I mean, it's not impossible that the Danes have been promising to spend more on defence. But already Greenland is an operational US base, it's very important for its radar detection and missile detection systems. The United States globally, when it wants to have bases, enters something called status forces agreements.

19:57And that is with the host country. It doesn't give sovereignty, but it is a set of protocols where you talk through things like laws, what's the rights of US military personnel, what happens with customs, with taxes and things like that. and that's normally with host agreements with another country. Like we have in Cyprus, for example. Well, Cyprus is a slightly unusual one. In fact, in Cyprus we have a different kind of agreement. It's a base that the British kept a sovereign territory after Cyprus got independence in 1960. So it's a different story. There it's British sovereign territory. The armed forces don't need any permissions from the government of Cyprus and it can't be revoked.

20:34In theory, SOFAs, as they're called, status of forces agreements, or an equivalent type of agreement the Americans have of defence cooperation agreements are usually mutually negotiated and they can be often terminated. I mean, the closest case, I guess, is Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, a country where the US has had a long and complicated history, which was given to the United States, negotiated in a treaty of 1903. Because the Cubans can't push the Americans out, the Americans occupy it by force, but it's still Cuban sovereign territory. And every single year, the Americans send a cheque for$4 ,800 to the Cuban government, which the Cuban government, if I'm not mistaken, has only cashed once, as a way of saying we recognise that we're a tenant here.

21:15So Trump, I guess, as a real estate or as a property developer, I guess someone who enjoys gaming monopoly, thinks that leaseholds are bad things. And so logically, if he wants to build new bases, the agreement in 1951 that's still in place allows the Americans to negotiate with Denmark to build as many bases as they like and to do what they want on those bases. So with that analogy, has Trump won the game of Monopoly or is he like the slightly seedy old uncle that people just let win, even though they know he sort of nicks money from the bank? He's got the old Kent Road, hasn't he? He hasn't got Mayfair and Park Lake.

21:46I think seedy old uncles tend to be lone operators. It's not an area of great specialism of mine, but he has around him. You know, we've heard Howard Lutnick, we've heard Scott Besson, we've heard J.D. Vance last year saying the president wants Greenland. you can't stand in the way the president's desires. And I think for those of us sitting here in Europe who perhaps look at the world in a slightly different way, that kind of language about not wanting to have leaseholds, of needing to have sovereign territory given to you, is basically what Putin has done in Ukraine. You know, Putin has talked about Crimea.

22:18It's not acceptable to be Ukraine. It needs to have warm water bases. It's strategically very sensitive and therefore needs to be occupied. And I think that the challenge for people like Mark Rutter and NATO and all of us here in Europe is to think, how is it possible the leader of the free world is talking about taking away freedoms from other people and not doing things through negotiation? So he might be able to boost up... So you're putting him on a par in a way, in terms of his actions with what Putin is doing? Well, the difference, of course, is that Trump hasn't used force. You know, he's de-escalated.

22:49You can now sit around the negotiating table, but those optics around the world are terrible. You know, the US, the view that's, I think, gone through not just the Republican Party and the MAGA movement, but now across large swathes of the United States, you know, you were there last week, is that Europe is a decrepit, failing place that doesn't pay its bills, is not ready for the 20th century, too many windmills, and everybody worried about woke. And I think part of that is that we in Europe, unfortunately, there's some truth in some of those things. There's touch points around how we've hollowed out our defensive capabilities.

23:18The real problem, I think, in Europe is our process of making decisions is unbelievably slow. So Trump acts impulsively. I mean, on his way into Davos, he put on Truth Social, you know, to Vondelet and Starmer and Macron. You had your chance and frankly, you blew it. And now he says it's all, everything's calming down and doesn't put two and two together that he's the person who started the problem and now has calmed it. It's not the same as Putin. But, you know, I think that turbulence that he's created has really unsettled many of the big states in Europe, as well as a lot of the small ones.

23:49Jon Sopel:Yeah, exactly as you say. I was really struck by the language of Besant, the Treasury Secretary, and Lutnik, the Commerce Secretary, saying how dare the europeans have created this they've overreacted they've gone hysterical and lutnik of course was booed at his speech and at his dinner and why can't why can't we just have whatever we want and you think is that really the american mindset now that europe have somehow behaved badly for saying that denmark you know has sovereignty here and it's not for the americans to decide which bits of real estate they want i wonder whether you think this is crisis over for the West and NATO, or just frankly, delayed the breach, the fracture, you know, what Mark Carney described has already happened.