Did Farage incite violence with his call for 'pure cold rage'?

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0:32Jon Sopel:This is a Global Player original podcast. It took them less than 24 hours to turn this into an absolute shitshow. But it is what Nigel Farage does. I mean, yesterday it was Southampton, but not that long ago it was Southport. But I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure, cold rage. This is a verbal tick that Farage has perfected, where he can always deny what happens next. Living family have asked us not to respond in the way that the leader of reform has responded. They've asked us not to. They have lost their son in the most appalling circumstance. They make a simple plea of us as human beings to please not exploit that.

1:22Jon Sopel:That is their plea to us. We all need to reflect on those words of Henry's father. My response, and the response of others to be fair, has been focused on the lessons to be learned so we can deliver justice. His response has been to appeal for rage. Rage. That's his response to a father who's lost his son and asked for that not to happen. exploiting this tragedy to create grievance and division would be wrong in any circumstances, but to do it when the family are expressly saying, please don't, is unforgivable. It shows exactly who he is. That was Keir Starmer, and the who he is is Nigel Farage because of his response to the murder of Henry Novak and seeking to make political capital out of it.

2:25Jon Sopel:It was Starmer at his withering, lacerating best. Yeah, he was accusing the reform leader of hijacking the death of Henry Novak. And the question is, was Farage deliberately going against the wishes of the dead boy's father out of desperation? Welcome to The News Agents.

2:52Jon Sopel:The News Agents. It's John. It's Maitlis. They're throwing bins! I can't breathe! I can't breathe! I can't breathe! I can't breathe! I don't like medium bobber here. I'm mental! Those were the scenes in Southampton last night where Tommy Robinson had called his supporters to protest about the police treatment of Henry Novak. And sure enough, they turned up initially to a protest outside the Southampton Central Police Station. And then from there, they went on to an area called St. Denis, which is very close to where Henry Novak was killed himself. of. It's worth just stating that the area where Henry Novak was killed is 226 miles to Makerfield and you might think the two are completely unrelated but in a lot of the politicians' response Makerfield is sort of uppermost in their mind particularly on the right where an auction seems to be going on about rage and counter-rage and this was Nigel Farage yesterday talking about his response to Henry Novak's death.

4:12Think of this, the biggest fear a police officer now has going about his or her duty on the street is the fear of being reported for having acted in a way that was racially biased. That fear now greater than dealing with a dying man living on the ground. Henry's family have responded to this in just the most extraordinarily dignified way. But I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure, cold rage.

4:47Jon Sopel:So don't respect the wishes of the family. Let us politicise it. Let us show our rage. Bring people out onto the streets and attack police officers. Yeah, I think it's worth analysing what he does without a sort of lesson in semantics. Nigel Farage has once again gone as close as he can to what feels like incitement before stepping back and saying, oh, no, I'm just saying you might feel quite angry. You might feel angry with the system. You might feel angry with the tragedy. You might feel angry with the outcome. I'm not suggesting you do anything. I'm just saying it would be normal to feel pure cold rage.

5:36This is a verbal tick that Farage has perfected where he can always deny what happens next. It wasn't him that sent people to Southampton. It wasn't him that went on the train like Tommy Robinson to go and start chanting words that were almost certainly horrifying to Henry Novak's family and friends. You know, he can say it wasn't him that injured 11 officers, according to the Hampshire police and a police dog, in the protests that took place around Southampton last night. He was just saying, you might feel that. And what we so often see with Farage is what the journalist Adam Bienkow calls a ramping up of racialised rhetoric.

6:25Rick. And I do think the question that you posed a second ago, what on earth has Southampton got to do with Makerfield, is everything right now. Because there are people who are looking at Farage, who frankly hasn't been that present for the last few weeks. He's been chased by these allegations of the£5 million donation, the house that he might have bought before it or after it. He's been chased by people who just frankly like to have a bit more accountability of the money that's been coming into his party. He's been chased by people who want to try and understand the reform candidate they've put up, the disgraceful, really grimy comments that he's made about women, about his position on Brexit, about Covid, about conspiracy theories.

7:16There are a lot of things that Farage probably doesn't want to answer right now. And so he's leaning in to the place that he feels most comfortable, which is this very, very careful dog whistle, which means go and do your thing and remember who we are. Look. And I guess one of the questions we're asking is, is this because they're feeling politically squeezed right now in a seat that they thought they would have won quite easily?

7:45Jon Sopel:Yeah, but it is what Nigel Farage does. I mean, yesterday it was Southampton, but not that long ago it was Southport when he issued a video after those three girls had been brutally murdered and said, I wonder whether the truth is being held from us. I don't know. Just a dog whistle that it was probably a terrorist and that it was an Islamic extremist who had committed the murders. No, it was a very, very deeply disturbed young man who had, you know, there should have been greater action against him much earlier on. It was an absolute failure by the authorities. But that is what Nigel Farage did.

8:22Jon Sopel:And that brought the accusation, if you remember, that, you know, Nigel Farage is Tommy Robinson in a suit. Exactly what you were just saying about he doesn't go as far as Tommy Robinson. There is always that just that enough distance between him and what is said. and yet you have to put this in the political context of the maker field by election where reform think they have a great shot of beating Andy Burnham the Labour candidate who would then be probably crowned the Prime Minister except that Nigel Farage is being outflanked on the right by Rupert Lowe's party restore and as suddenly seen in the opinion polls restore at something like 7 % or whatever, which could stop a reform victory.

9:07And this is where it gets complicated, because last night I spotted, I think, three iterations of what we would call populist right parties, all trying to work out who they were throwing shade at and who they were now siding with over this exact issue. Rupert Lowe's Restore Party has come down, I think, on the side of Kemi Badenoch against Nigel Farage. You've got the tweet there.

9:33Jon Sopel:Yeah, I mean, it is extraordinary because you would think that Rupert Lowe's party, Restore, positions itself normally to the right of Nigel Farage and the more kind of aggressive, we've got to deport illegal immigrants. But Rupert Lowe came out last night and attacked what Nigel Farage and an ad that Reform had put out, kind of misrepresenting what Kemi Badenoch has said. And he goes, to weaponise his death, this is Rupert Lowe, to weaponise Novak's death so vindictively in order to make a viciously deceitful graphic, attacking a political opponent is low. I am not in the same party as Kemi Badenock.

10:09Jon Sopel:In fact, we are competing for votes in Makerfield. I disagree with her on a great many number of policies. I would never manipulate the death of an innocent young man to score petty party political points, especially using such blatant lies. Yeah, I mean, Kemi Badenok has played, we should say, a very straight bat on this. She has effectively supported the prime minister's position. The tragedy is unacceptable. The policing was unacceptable. It needs to be thoroughly investigated. And I think they're waiting for the police inquiry to take place. But what she said was, I don't care about black lives.

10:48I don't care about white lives. You know, I want to get to the bottom of this. and reform essentially just took out the...

10:56Jon Sopel:The only clip was, I don't want to hear about white lives and like she doesn't care about white lives. I mean, just ridiculous and so easily demonstrably false. But it is interesting to see, I guess, the, you know, is it, Sunze, the age old adage, my enemy's enemy becomes my friend. So now Rupert Lowe is backing Kemmy Baden-Ock because he feels that his enemy here is Farage. The Prime Minister actually thanked Kemi Badenok in the Commons today for her response and her handling of this. And we are into what feels like quite new territory, which is the two main parties, what were formerly the main parties, are feeling like the grown-ups in the room now.

11:38and this horrible swirl of misinformation and racialised ramping up is all happening in the sort of hard right periphery of who can say the most shocking thing because they think that's where the British public is. And actually, my sense is the British public is not there at all. The British public is frankly with the family of Henry Novak and all you have to do is go back to that poor boy's father who must have anticipated this, who could have seen, as we all could, this coming and said, I don't want any more hatred, any more division, any more tension to come of this. And it took them less than 24 hours to turn this into an absolute shit show.

12:25Jon Sopel:Look, it boils down to, we played Nigel Farage's statement earlier. It was like, you know, Henry Novak's dad might want this, but I've got a by-election to fight. So I've got to win the by-election and I'll do it by whatever means possible. And if that means stirring up the pot over this issue and make capital out of the tragic, appalling, horrendous death of a young man, then maybe I will do it because it will serve the political ends that I seek. And, you know, to your question, Emily, I hope you're right. I hope you're right that this is not where the British public opinion is. But, you know, Farage is a very, very clever and canny political operator.

13:06Jon Sopel:And presumably he thinks this will play well in Makerfield. And that is why he has done it. And that is, he hopes, will help his candidate win that by-election. Yeah, well, one thing that he will be talking about today and he will be concentrating on is, just to complicate the story even further, is a move overnight by police chiefs who have said they're reviewing, this is their words, anti-racism guidance that suggests officers should treat ethnic minorities differently in order to ensure equality of outcomes. Now, the Times bizarrely has sort of seized again half of this and said, oh, you see, that's a case of two-tier policing.

13:49It's an admission of two-tier policing, something that the Prime Minister said in PMQ today he does not believe happens. I think what the police chiefs are trying to explain is that they have tried to give guidance for officers who are attending a scene where there may be sensitivities involved, whether it is different religions, different races, whether it is people with disabilities, whether it's people with different mental conditions, the police have to arrive at the seen and know that there will be sensitivities. Now, if you're Farage, you say, oh, you see, that's basically two-tier policing.

14:29If you're the police chiefs, you say, give us a break. You know how complicated this job is. You know how bloody difficult it is to arrive in emergency on a 999 call in the dark and try and make sense of what happens. And we should just, to go back a step, remember that when the police got that call from the brother of Henry Novak attacker, murderer, they were told that there had been a racially aggravated crime. In other words, they had been explicitly told that they were arriving at the scene where they had been a racially aggravated attack. It was dark. I mean, the big question in my head is, for Christ's sake, bring a torch.

15:12You know, there should never have been that moment where they didn't understand that a poor boy was bleeding on the ground. There should never have been that moment. But you can understand the mindset of police who have just received a call. They think they're arriving at one thing and they don't understand what's going on. And they've heard this very clear sort of excuse, right, from a man who I think is now being investigated by police over what actually happened. And so the idea that police chiefs are saying, well, we're going to review this because we don't want to give anyone, anyone justification for saying that we have a two tier policing system is still going to lead some people to say, aha, you see, it was happening all along.

15:54Jon Sopel:I think it's an entirely legitimate question to ask about whether there was two tier policing in in this particular case, something absolutely bloody dreadful has happened where, you know, the police get a call racially aggravated attack. They take, they believe the attacker rather than the victim. And, you know, and instead of this kid being read his last rights as he lay there dying, he is being read his rights as someone who has just been arrested. And that is truly horrendous. So, yes, fair play. Look, nobody's denying something went absolutely tragically, horrifically wrong. Let that investigation take place.

16:39Jon Sopel:If there needs to be a course correction, because maybe the police having been accused of being institutionally racist, then have gone maybe too far in the other direction. Let that be examined. Let that be calmly looked at. And if there needs to be rewording of the advice that police officers get during their training, then fine. But don't whip it up immediately now when before that work has taken place and just try to sow further division in a society and make life for police officers who, you know, try and hold order by consent, don't make their jobs more difficult than they already have, you know, than the difficulties they already face.

17:19Yeah. I mean, if you were police in Southampton, you saw 300 people outside your police station. What you'd actually be thinking is how quickly can I leave this job? Right. And they wouldn't be the only people thinking that. police numbers have dropped drastically because no one, frankly, wants to go into policing in this climate, in this country, in this age.

17:37Jon Sopel:And, you know, having lived in the States for eight years, give me the policing of the UK by consent rather than policing at the barrel of a gun by force that you get in America. I think our police service, huge force. We've seen all sorts of incidents where we think, my God, the police have acted appallingly in the way that they have behaved. But overwhelmingly, I think they're trying to do a very difficult job and they try to do it very well indeed. Just to go back to the Commons for a moment, there was a curious moment of, I think what I'm going to call possible stage management. A Labour MP raised the question of Henry Novak after a prime minister's questions that frankly, fairly to Kemi Badenok, had been dominated by a discussion of welfare reform.

18:24and I think it actually made her point that if you don't want to politicise something then you choose something else to attack the Prime Minister on. She did. She went for welfare reform. But much later in that sort of half hour came a question from a Labour MP about the murder of Henry Novak and the Prime Minister gave a very considered, very thoughtful response to that about the importance of not politicising this tragedy. And as he finished speaking the next person to get to his feet was Nigel Farage. And again, I just want you to listen to the phrasing of this question, because you're always trying with Farage to hear the words and then read between the lines.

19:12Just take a listen. The horrendous circumstances of Henry Novak's death. Can I urge the Prime Minister to consider this? It is now clear to growing millions in this country that we're living under two-tier policing. The instructions that are given to police officers from police bosses are clear and written down in ink. It says you must treat different ethnic groups in different ways. that, apart from the upset and the anger at the circumstances of his death, the anger that you saw spilling out in Southampton last night, and which is in danger of getting considerably worse Because if the public lose trust in being treated fairly by the police, can he take some action, end this divisive practice of two -tier policing and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same?

20:31Just look at what happened there. He talks about it being in danger of getting worse. He talked about it spilling out onto the streets. Violence doesn't just spill out onto the streets. It emerges onto the streets when people like him incite it. And as you saw, if you watch that video, that little clip, you will have seen Luke Taylor, Danny Chambers, two Lib Dems sitting behind him who are enraged by his words, who are saying, you incited that, you did that, you provoked that. and he is ignoring all the Commons cries, he's ignoring all the people saying shame on you to make his point that, ooh, we wouldn't want this to get worse, would we?

21:16Well, maybe he would. Maybe that's exactly what he's saying.

21:20Jon Sopel:We will be back in just a moment with Jeremy Hunt, the former Chancellor, and how Britain can get rich again.

21:35and award-winning journalists. Good morning, I'm Nick Ferrari. It's time to get to your calls. Find out the latest news and hear every side of the story. He was actually treated in a way that meant an accusation of a racial slur was treated more seriously than an act of murder. They wanted riots and they got riots, aided and abetted by people who really should know better. But the next dimension of this tragedy could be even more troubling. Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

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22:48Jon Sopel:well we are joined in the studio now by the former chancellor of the exchequer and numerous other cabinet posts uh jeremy hunt who has written a new book called can we be rich again and Jeremy Hunt is this a there used to be car manuals about how you fix your car the Haynes manuals is this kind of one of those books for the economy in a way yes but I suppose I put it differently if you can cast your mind back four years to that crazy moment in October when I became chancellor inflation 11 percent the economy heading into a big recession huge black hole in the public finances and I had no background in economics and had never done a job in government with any responsibility for the economy and this is the book I wish someone had given me you know and the truth is everyone says well you recommend all these things why didn't you do them well you learn on the job that is what happens in politics you don't know everything when you arrive in fact sadly there are some things you learn after you stop doing the job and you think back on your time in office and you reflect on it and so it was kind of therapeutic putting together these things but also the discipline which of course is the thing you you can't do when you're a busy minister we're saying all these so-called good ideas what's the actual impact on annual GDP growth and which are the ones that actually work and which are the ones are really not worth the effort we're going to come back to Tony Blair in a bit later but I mean I remember him saying that the problem is you come into government knowing nothing and the moment you leave government is when you know most and you're most useful and that seems to be a real kind of example of craziness in our politics that there you are you say you've become chancellor and you've got no background in economics or you know running the country's finances i mean that is true absolutely true and um of course in a democracy it is right that you know the defense secretary is a civilian in charge of the uniformed services.

24:58And as a non-doctor, I was elected and I was responsible for the NHS. And I think there is something right about that too. But the big difference between politics and nearly every other profession, let's say you become chief executive of British Airways. You can arrive, get your feet under the table, get your people in place, get to know the industry. And then maybe a couple of years later, so here's my plan to make BA the best airline. In politics, your political capital is draining away from the moment you arrive. And I think if there was one, if we get a new chance this year, which, you know, people are speculating, we might.

25:36If there was one thing I would say, irrespective of ideology or party, it is you have to do your big things in your first three months. You can't wait any longer because political capital is like an egg timer. The sand is dripping away. And if you wait a couple of years to do your big things, you won't have any capital left. And so for the economy where there's always going to be vested interests who are against this reform or that reform, whatever the big thing is you want to do, you just have to do it really fast. And that is the big challenge of the job. I think what you say in the book is choose one thing that you want to go for and make sure that everyone knows about it and then do it.

26:20which I guess talks a little bit to the problems of incrementalism. But I mean, to be fair, Jeremy, I know you want to kind of skip over the why didn't I do that when I had the chance, but some of the things that you talk about were within your grasp. You know, ending the triple lock, which you've now said is sort of, you know, screams in your face. Of course you want to end the triple lock. Of course you want to think about where that wealth disparity is and who you're going to help. you talk about the need to cut taxes. You talk about the need for welfare reform. I mean, it was all within your grasp.

27:00Yes. Look, first of all, it's a totally fair criticism. There were lots of big radical things in the book that I didn't do. And, you know, without getting into boring self-justification, I suppose what I would say is there were lots of big difficult things I did do, like increasing taxes for a Conservative Chancellor. It's very, very difficult. And you remember the heat that I got over freezing tax thresholds or cutting spending where, you know, also I got a lot of heat. And we did make a start on welfare reform. But maybe welfare reform is a good one to talk about because whereas I did the big tax rises and spending cuts which stabilised the markets and the public finances straight after that big increase in debt that we had after COVID.