Did the Pope just call Trump a tyrant?

0:00Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Splash into Savings event from Apple Vacations is here. Now through June 25th, save up to$150 on vacation packages, plus instant savings at select resorts in Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, and top U.S. destinations. Use promo code JUNE26 for these limited-time offers. Start planning today at AppleVacations.com or contact your travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

0:32This is a Global Player original podcast. It looks like there is only one winner in this battle and it ain't Donald Trump. There was only one random dude screaming there, wasn't there? They have tried to recruit God as a representative of MAGA. Trump doesn't realise he has just done a head-on collision with about 1 ,500 years of a theological tradition. They're making themselves look like idiots. If I have to take sides, God damn it, I will. The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants. It is held together by a multitude of supportive brothers and sisters. The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants.

1:16Pope Leo doesn't mention Donald Trump there. But given the week of sulfurous exchanges between the Vatican and the White House, it's hard to believe he's not in the crosshairs. Have we found the man to take on President Trump, no less than the Pope himself? Welcome to The News Agents.

1:45The News Agents. It's John. It's Maitlis. And it has been an extraordinary set of exchanges that have unfolded over the past week between Donald Trump and the Pope, with Donald Trump kind of essentially going after Pope Leo, an American-born citizen, for not being MAGA enough, for being very weak on foreign policy and, you know, not understanding what was happening in the world. And if only he could be enlightened like Donald Trump, then the world would be a much better place. And rather than kind of shy away, Pope Leo, in a very papal kind of way, quietly spoken, has given it straight back to Donald Trump.

2:27And of course, in America, there are something like 70 million Catholics, about 20 % of the population. And so far, it looks like there is only one winner in this battle, and it ain't Donald Trump. Yeah, the Pope is in Cameroon at the moment. And last night, he made clear that he didn't want to get dragged into sort of political fights, personal fights, that the pontiff clearly should rise above that sort of thing. But it is important, I think, that the leader of the Catholic Church has said in the past few days, I have no fear of the Trump administration. And there is this extraordinary realisation, I think, that the world's coming to, which is that the person that they thought may have been elected, you know, a year ago, actually this month, to sort of help ease the ways.

3:22This was Trump's idea, wasn't it? That they picked an American pope to try and sort of ease the pathway for many Catholics, for many world leaders to Trump is standing out as being the person that is prepared to take on Donald Trump. And there is something about the sort of liturgical lilt to his voice and his words. It's all done very gently. It's done in the spirit of benediction. He's talking to crowds. He says it in the spirit of a mass. But he is talking about tyrants. And you don't have to look that far to work out not only Trump. Sure, he's probably talking about the Ayatollah in Iran. He's probably talking about Putin.

4:03He's probably, I don't know, maybe he's talking about Xi Jinping. But why is he saying it right now? Because the people who are waging a war that does not need to happen come from his own country. And I think we are not taking a leap to say that is directly aimed at Trump and at his administration. And I do want to bring in the most extraordinary moment of an interview at the Turning Point USA conference. The Pope wasn't there, was he? He wasn't there. But none other than the hapless JD was there. As it turns out, they'd booked this extraordinarily large arena. And to put it mildly, it was not full.

4:48J.D. Vance had to sit on stage and pontificate to an audience that wasn't really as packed as he wanted it to be. But just listen to what he says here, because it sounds like he's actually telling the Pope to stay off God. Number one, when the Pope says that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword, there is a thousand year, more than a thousand year tradition of just war theory, okay? Now, we can, of course, have disagreements about whether this or that conflict is just, but I think that it's important, in the same way that it's important for the Vice President of the United States to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy, I think it's very, very important for the Pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology.

5:38And I think that one of these issues here is that there has been, again, hey, random dude screaming, I told you I'd respond to your point. I just want to respond to this question first. But I think one of the issues here is that if you're going to opine on matters of theology, you've got to be careful. You've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth. And that's one of the things that I try to do. And it's certainly something I would expect from the clergy, whether they're Catholic So that is J.D. Vance, who converted to Catholicism in 2019, telling the Pope that he ought to be careful in matters of theology.

6:15Just for the record, J.D., Pope Leo became a friar in the Order of St. Augustine in 1977, ordained a priest in 1982, doctor of canonical law in 1987, became a seminary teacher, a missionary worker, a bishop, prefect of the disaster of bishops, a cardinal and elected pope in 2025. So against your five and a half years of being a Catholic, J.D. Vance, you have got a pope who has dedicated 50 years to being in service of God. Maybe you want to pick your fights a little bit better than taking on a pope and telling him he needs to be careful about matters of theology. I think there was only one random dude screaming there, wasn't there?

7:00But I do think that it's a really, I mean, there is a world in which this is quite an important doctrinal argument that J.D. Vance is trying to have. And weirdly, it takes us right back to, you know, the medieval days where there was this sense of the importance of the Catholic Church and the emperor. You know, do you do what the church says or do you do what you and your empire think is right for fighting? I mean, he spelled it out, fighting a just war. Now, you have to believe that J.D. Vance and possibly Trump and maybe Hegseth believe that they are on the side of right, that they are fighting a just war.

7:41And that when Pope Leo says this stuff, he is getting in their way. And that's why he's framing it as a sort of theological fight. I mean, it is an extraordinary thing. J.D. Vance thinks he has God on his side. You know, if you want to go back a sort of millennia, this is the argument they're having. We think we have God on our side. We are fighting a just war to sort of free people or free a world or, you know, free the Middle East from terrorism. And the Pope's calling them tyrants. And I do think it's interesting that the Pope arguably didn't really want to get dragged into this a week ago.

8:22You know, he has said we are not politicians. We don't deal with foreign policy with the same perspective as he might understand it. But hasn't he been dragged into it? Because what you have seen from the Republican Party and MAGA land is that they have tried to recruit God as a representative of MAGA. And there have been so many occasions where, you know, you go back to the kind of attempted assassination in Butler, Pennsylvania. And afterwards, everyone is saying that was God's work. That was Jesus saving. And, you know, and Donald Trump is a latter day Jesus because he is being sent onto earth to do God's work.

9:02There is so much of that quasi religious sort of symbolism that MAGA wants to use to say it is the party of God. That it's not surprising that you get someone who is representing God, the Pope, as it is seen in Catholic teaching, to say, no, no, no, it's not politicians who are there. We're not politicians. We are here representing the teachings of Christ. But don't think that you politicians are doing that. And I think it's quite important the intervention that the Pope has made to say, right, look, you're politicians. You want to get elected. You've got a platform to stand on. But don't pretend that what you're doing is God's work.

9:45Look, I think why it's so interesting is, and I'm sure this isn't what the Pope intended, but the Pope has an electorate. Right. So Trump thinks he's speaking to MAGA. The Pope is speaking to Catholics, as you've said. that immediately becomes a potential massive dividing line in whatever happens in the midterms. And so I do believe that the Pope feels it is his moral right, you know, it is his calling to stop wars, to call for peace, to call out tyrants. I mean, here's, let us play you a little bit longer and I'll find you on the other side. Jesus told us, blessed are the peacemakers. But woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic, or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth.

10:47Yes, my dear sisters and brothers, you who hunger and thirst for justice, who are poor, merciful, meek, and pure of heart. I mean, again, that liturgical lilt. Trump doesn't realise he has just done a head-on collision with about 1 ,500 years of a theological tradition, right? A set of teachings about war, about violence, about when it is right to go in and when it is right to call for peace. And yeah, he has just picked a fight with the Pope completely of his own making, which could have real electoral ramifications for him in six months time. Yeah. And look, there is a kind of more trivial part to all of this, which is the AI generated picture that Donald Trump posted of himself as Jesus Christ.

11:47Although he then did try to say later, no, no, no. It was me posing as a doctor. Well, really, you're not in scrubs. You're dressed as God and there's no doubt about it. but the reaction on Truth Social which is where Trump loyalists go to kind of get their daily fill of Donald Trump they were outraged the fury, the thousands of messages that have come back saying this is blasphemous, how dare you don't try and protect, you know and I just think that they have so overplayed their hand in the White House and you know, they're doubling down but they're dumbing down I mean, they're making themselves look like idiots in all of this.

12:32And you can't help but feel that the ramifications in the midterm elections where you have got a lot of people. You know, America is a very different society to the UK. You know, religion plays a much, much more important role in the politics of the nation than it does in the UK, where everyone says we don't do God. In America, people do a lot of God. And I think that this is going to cost him. Do you think when Mike Johnson became the Speaker, I think he's Catholic, do you think he ever thought he would be crushed in a row between the Pope and the White House? Because he has been out siding with the White House against the Vatican, telling reporters, you know, on Capitol Hill that while the Pope is welcome to share his opinions, he should expect some political response.

13:20Now, he doesn't want to get dragged in to criticising clerics. He doesn't want to get dragged into religious leaders. But they are so trapped, those around Trump, that, yes, some people have gone out and said what's on their mind. But Mike Johnson, always the rabbit in the headlights when it comes to Donald Trump, looks like he's once again sided with the guy in the House. Listen. I'm not one to criticise clerics and religious leaders. We defend free speech, and we certainly defend the right to the free exercise of religion. And, you know, a pontiff or any religious leader can say anything they want.

13:57But obviously, if you wade into political waters, I think you should expect some political response. And I think the popes received some of that. You know, I was taken a little bit back, just honestly, frankly, by something that was said. I think he said several days back that something about those who engage in war, you know, that Jesus doesn't hear their prayers or something. You know, it is a very well-settled matter of Christian theology. There's something called the Just War Doctrine. There's a time to every purpose under heaven. I think what the president's comments, what the vice president's comments reflect is their understanding deep in the, you know, the SCIF and the classified briefings of the stakes that are so high and the situation that we're facing and the fact that you had the nation that was the largest sponsor of terrorism now having had that ability taken away from them.

14:45And that means potentially millions of innocent people will be able to keep their lives and not be killed by terrorists. That's a good thing. That's what's come out of this. So that was Mike Johnson, not actually a Catholic, but a Southern Baptist. But as you can hear from that speech, religion plays a really important part in his life. And then finding yourself taking on the Pope. and there are elements in look look there the pope has been and there are many people who've argued this that has been one-sided in his criticism of america and where was the criticism of what was happening in iran when you know 30 40 000 protesters were moaned down by the security police in iran and some of the things that you know iran has added his role in kind of october the 7th so there is a legitimate criticism of the pope that he's been maybe kind of colorblind to some of what has gone on.

15:40But his general criticism that, you know, surprise, surprise, Roman Catholic Pope says, blessed are the peacemakers. That's just straight biblical Christian teaching. Yeah. And at a time when Trump, as we've been reporting, has lost one friend in Europe in the shape of Viktor Orban, who was ousted in a landslide on Sunday night in Hungary, he also looks on the cusp of losing another ally in the shape of Italy's Prime Minister, Georgia Maloney. She is Catholic. I think I've got that one right, at least. And she called his attack on Pope Leo unacceptable. And I think what you're hearing now is a sort of door being opened in which it is becoming much easier to criticise Trump now.

16:27And for Maloney, it's on these questions of faith. For the Pope, it's on questions of war. As it turns out, For Rachel Reeves, it's on questions of economics. But something is definitely sort of changing here. You know, the sycophancy of the whole of last year is starting to edge away. And I mean, I don't think we've ever sort of run a poll like this before. But if you compare the Pope's popularity to Trump's popularity, I'm sorry, but he wins hands down. This is an NBC News poll last month that gave the Pope a 34 point net favourability rating and it is minus 12 for the president. They're never going to be up against each other in any real terms.

17:11I don't think the Pope will run for office. But in a way, he is. Whether Trump wants to concede that or not, because there are Catholics that will follow the Pope to wherever he takes them, that are starting to say, I'm not sure this guy is for me anymore. The guy in the White House, I'm not sure he's doing us any favours. Yeah. And so you've got a situation now where people that Trump thought were his friends. And you mentioned Giorgio Maloney. I mean, Giorgio Maloney was populist, right wing, Italian leader who seemed much more MAGA aligned and much more aligned to that way of thinking than, say, being a typical European Union social democrat.

17:52Listen to Giorgio Maloney now.

17:57What I said is what I think, that the declarations in particular on the pontifices were unacceptable. I express my solidarity to Papa Leone. I'll tell you more. What she's saying here is what he said was unacceptable and I'd like to express my solidarity for Pope Leo. In other words, if I have to take sides, God damn it, I will, right? And as the leader of Italy, she'd be mad to do anything else. he's on a doorstep he's on a doorstep you know you don't want the bishop of rome upset so again it's the clumsiness with which you are losing friends and picking fights you don't need to pick where there is no political upside i just do not see any of the political upside of what donald trump has done in the past week whether it be posting himself as jesus christ whether it be the battle with the catholic church whether it be slagging off georgia maloney as weak you know what good is coming of any of it yeah and that picture of jd vance trying to tell the pope off for entering into theological discussions i think will probably last the ages we haven't finished with them we will be back right at the end talking about pete hegseth's bible quotations oh i can't wait for that

19:18from a range of trusted voices and award-winning journalists good morning i'm nick ferrari it's time to get to your calls find out the latest news and hear every side of the story our focus in the last few weeks has been on getting the straight of hall moves open because all the time it's not open for free navigation that is impacting our economy and our energy bills if you're donald trump and you have failed to convince an enemy to unblock a straight the The best thing you can do is announce that you're, it says here, blocking the strait. The fallout of the Iran war. Follow it live on LBC. Listen on our free global player app or the LBC app.

19:57Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Splash into Savings event from Apple Vacations is here. Now through June 25th, save up to$150 on vacation packages, plus instant savings at select resorts in Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America and top U.S. destinations. Use promo code JUNE26 for these limited time offers. Start planning today at AppleVacations.com or contact your travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

20:31The News Agents. Three weeks today, many of us will be going to the polls for a whole group of elections. Some of them are local in Scotland, they're for the Scottish Parliament, in Wales they're in the Welsh Assembly. And there is quite a lot at stake here on a local individual level. But it's also, as ever, quite an interesting barometer. two years on from that Labour landslide, some have called Loveless landslide, to work out where we are, who's up and who's down. We are joined, as ever, I'm going to say, by Luke Trill, more in common, who has just been hot footy around South Wales. Is that fair, Luke?

21:15And just give us a sense of your sort of picture over the last few days. Yeah, so we spent the weekend, as you said, doing various stops in South Wales. We're in Cardiff, Merthyr, Port Talbot, Narbeth, Pembroke Dock, Swansea. So right across the South, chatting to voters about the upcoming Senate elections. Because I actually think that of all of the elections, I think the Welsh elections could well be the most interesting because you've got that possibility and, dare I say it, likelihood, that for the first time since devolution, Welsh Labour is not the largest party and doesn't send the First Minister.

21:57So we really wanted to get under the skin of that. And a couple of things jumped out. One is that whilst it's fair to say views of the Prime Minister were fairly negative, you know, that lots of the U-turns had cut through, there was just this sense that it wasn't the anger we sometimes hear in some focus groups, there was a sort of sense of just disappointment. He hadn't delivered what people thought they were going to get. But if there was a bright spot, and it was seven focus groups over those three days, I think in every single one, unprompted, someone raised Iran and Trump and said, do you know what, I don't think he's doing particularly well, you know, I wish he was a bit stronger.

22:41But actually, on this, keeping us out of the war and standing up to Trump, he's done a good job. And I admire him for that. And then others in the group would generally generally agree so that idea of some sort of love actually moment for the prime minister whilst it might not be totally changing impressions of him i think people do credit him with that is it perfectly is it possible luke that what you're seeing is you know on the one hand yeah well done on that but we're still not going to vote for you because we still feel pissed off that the you know you haven't delivered on this and there have been too many u-turns and the government has just not been good enough or do you think that he gets any oh i think that's very definitely.

23:20I think what it does is I think it means that the floor hasn't come out as much as it had at the height of the Mandelson scandal, but he's still very unpopular and people are still going to vote on domestic issues. And there was actually someone in one focus group, someone who was reasonably engaged, but said, do you know what? I just think he'd be so much better at being a foreign secretary than he is as a prime minister, because he doesn't, he just seemed to do so well on the world stage and not so well everywhere else. So I think, yeah, I don't think it's going to dramatically change his fortunes.

23:54It might mean if they do do this reset post-locals, people are more willing to give him another look. But the other interesting thing from this road trip that jumped out was just how many people who were traditionally Labour voters saying they were thinking about going Plaid and why. And this was really interesting because when you do similar groups in Scotland and talk about support for the SNP, the constitutional question is at the heart of it. For Plaid voters, it wasn't that at all. They weren't expecting Wales to become independent any time soon. In fact, independence didn't go up. It was the sense that Plaid would stand up for Wales.

24:35Then obviously, you've got Labour in power in both the Senate and in Westminster and they felt they needed something different. It was a sense that Plaid were nice. That came up repeatedly. Everyone knows someone who's implied. And then thirdly, and I think this is actually a real risk for Labour, it was, oh, it does now look like Plaid are the best vehicle to stop reform. So this is the Carefilly, isn't it? It's the Carefilly by-election sort of blueprint, I guess. I mean, is it fair to say that for those who want to stop reform, in Wales, it looks like Plaid and in England, it feels like the Greens?

25:16Or is that too simple? well certainly i think that's the way some people are starting to uh look at it and i think having had kefili where plied uh beat reform and labor came third having had the gorton uh by election where the greens came for labor came to you know i i think more what it's done is it's undermined labor's ability to say a vote for anyone other than us is a path to letting in reform uh and Or, yeah, is a wasted vote. And I think that is a real risk for them. And we, to flip over to England, we actually did a focus group in Keir Starmer's seat in Hoban and St Pancras. And again, there it was really interesting.

26:03You know, people who had voted for the prime minister sort of saying, well, no, we think we will give the Greens a bit of a shot this time. Less, in their case, because they were worried about reform and more because they were saying, well, we want something different. We want something new. Can we talk a little bit about Scotland, Luke? Because the SNP have been in power there forever and actually might pull it off again, right? Is that what we're saying this time around? Yes. I mean, Scotland is so interesting because you've basically got the battle of two quite unpopular incumbent governments.

26:37The SNP government is not very popular in Holyrood. The Westminster government's not very popular. It just happens that the Westminster government is more unpopular. And so that means that what you're likely to see in Scotland, and we have a new poll, which I can reveal to you today, which has the SNP in the constituency vote on 32%. That's 15 points down on what they got at the last set of elections. But because the unionist vote is more fragmented, you've got the emergence of Reform UK in Scotland as well, and because Scottish Labour is doing a little bit worse as well, it means they could secure a majority on just 32 % of the vote.

27:24It would be the lowest vote share for a winning party since devolution. but you've just got that sense of you know yeah i don't like either government but enough people will stick with the smp you've got labor on 19 reform on 18 the tories way back on uh 12 you know they're the opposition um at the moment uh and the liberal democrats on 11 and greens at seven so you've got it's it's it's sort of like in focus groups in scotland you get this sort of sense of well, you know, we used to have this time in Scottish politics, you had Nicola Sturgeon there, you know, on the right, you had people like Ruth Davidson.

28:01Actually, across the spectrum, there's a bit of a sense of, oh. Okay, Luke, so let me just to wrap up, really unfairly ask for predictions. In terms of just, I mean, not numbers, not seats, but would you say Scotland, we'd be most likely to expect the SNP in first and reform in second? England, would you say reform in first place? Who in second? And Wales, Plaid? Where would you sit? So look, I mean, yeah, as you know, and I don't do predictions, but I would be surprised if the SNP weren't at or reasonably close to a majority in Scotland. I really do think it's a battle between Labour and reform for second.