Exclusive: Did the Met “cover up” a paedophile ring?

19:47Lewis:Exclusively Tony Berman. Well, all right, fine. Well, we'll see how far the comparisons run in the end. Look, we're talking about the ECHR today because the Prime Minister is. And it does seem as if, from the kind of mood music and the communique that's coming out of the Council of Europe, it does seem like you might be making some progress. But let's talk about it. Keir Starmer and Mette Fredericks and the Danish Prime Minister have written today. The best way of fighting against the forces of hate and division is to show that mainstream progressive politics can fix the problem. Is that your message to Europe?

20:14Lewis:Is that how grave you think the situation is? And you really root the ECHR at the cause of that?

20:18Jake Richards:Absolutely. Look, what's coming out of Strasbourg today is really, really important on both the legal technicalities and the ECHR and modernising how we interpret and implement the ECHR. But there's a bigger point here, which is about European countries and partners coming together to tackle the big problems we face in the 21st century. And one of those is mass, irregular or illegal migration and working together to confront that, because that is the only way we're going to solve these problems, by working with our international partners. And that's the big dividing line in British politics at the moment.

20:49Jake Richards:You know, today you have the Prime Minister working with colleagues abroad, the Deputy Prime Minister in Strasbourg, making the case on the continent for the need to work together, making progress, and you have the Conservatives in reform who simply want to rip up the whole thing and start again. And look, we've got to deliver... We need unanimity, don't you? We need what, sir? Unanimity. No. From all of the signatories. Well, there's a process which is going to take place going into the new year by which we're going to be seeking a political declaration on various aspects of the ECHR and trying to modernise how that's interpreted in domestic law.

21:20Jake Richards:That process will be ongoing. 27 countries. That's a big chunk of those that are members of the Council of Europe. That's 45. Well, yeah, it's a good start. There's a way to go. But remember, back in May, only nine countries signed a letter on this issue. The UK wasn't one of them. The UK have now begun to lead and shape this process.

21:37Lewis:So you're 100 % confident you can convert the 27 to 45 and get substantial, not just sort of token reform, but actually change in substance the nature and legal application of the ECHR, which will make a material difference to your efforts to stop irregular migration?

21:53Jake Richards:Yes. I'll tell you why, because a lot of this reform agenda, this modernising agenda is in our own hands, by the way. so the operation of article 8 which is a big part of this agenda is all about really reforming our domestic law and shabana mcmood the home secretary has already set out uh really quite important reforms that she will be setting out in legislation in the house over the next few months which will begin to change how article 8 operates in domestic law on an international scale things do take more time because you've got to bring countries with us but i'm very confident that we're going to be making progress look i was in strasbourg just a few weeks ago meeting with uh representatives from countries from across Europe.

22:31Jake Richards:Everyone has a different perspective of this, of course, but there's a general acceptance that if the European community is going to remain together, remain united and see off the dark forces of populism on the right and the left, then we're going to have to make progress on this.

22:46Lewis:When might we expect that unanimity? When might we expect? Because as you say, it's urgent. So when would you expect?

22:51Jake Richards:There's a moment in May next year where we're hoping that we'll be able to deliver a political declaration, which will be a big moment about the operation of Article 3 and Article 8. again there are technical issues that we want to deal with as part of that political declaration but this is actually more about ensuring that europe together as a community is working on

23:10Lewis:dealing with irregular just explain to people why would that be significant just getting a

23:14Jake Richards:political declaration on article 3 and article 8 why would that well so there's a technical reason why so the european court takes into account what they call the european consensus and that's really important that they they look at what the democratically elected governments are saying as to these big issues which sometimes come before the court, whether that's Article 3 on issues of deporting foreign national offenders or Article 8, which deals with private life and a family life, often in the context of migration. Which has been one of the articles that has caused different governments, previous government and your government, difficulty when you're trying to deport people.

23:44Jake Richards:Yeah, and on Article 8, as I touched upon before, and without getting too technical for your listeners... They're a clever bunch, Joe. I know they're very... You're not on the Today programme now, don't you? But look, Article 8 is primarily a domestic issue And that's why Shabana Mood, the Home Secretary, is setting forward pretty rapid and important reforms to how we implement Article 8 in our law. There is an issue as to Article 3 on an international scale. I can talk about that in more detail if you wish. And I think we're going to see progress on that in the coming months.

24:09Lewis:So you think that by May, you're confident that you will have the necessary political will from the 45 countries to issue that political declaration? You're confident that will happen?

24:18Jake Richards:I'm confident that there'll be movement on that. There's a lot of work to do. Movement or the actual declaration? I'm confident we can get a political declaration next May. That's what we're aiming for. That's what the Deputy Prime Minister is interested to begin that process.

24:30Lewis:And substantial, an actual legal reform of the ECHR by when?

24:33Jake Richards:Well, a political declaration affects the operation of the ECHR.

24:37Lewis:So is that the summit of the ambition, or is it just a political declaration, or would you actually want to reform the substance of it itself?

24:42Jake Richards:Well, I don't think we need to reform the protocol itself. The words in the European Convention are words that I hope every single member of Parliament and politician on the left and the right agree with.

24:52Lewis:So the summit of your political, the summit of your ambition is a political declaration?

24:57Jake Richards:No, we need to make sure that the ECHR and all our international agreements are fit for the challenges we face today. And one of those big challenges is mass migration. And there are changes that can be made into how that document is implemented, how it's interpreted, which will help governments of all different colours across Europe grapple this problem.

25:16Lewis:If you're unable to secure that political declaration and therefore affect the changes that you're looking for, would you be happy to see us stay in the ECHR on the basis of the status quo?

25:26Jake Richards:Look, I think remaining signatories to the ECHR is absolutely paramount to our ability to deal with these problems. Even if you can't get any reform? Well, frankly, I think we will. So I don't think that will come to fruition. Even if you can't? Because no one else has managed to do it before. Well, no, that's not quite right either. I mean, 2012, we had a political declaration on it. there has been uh it's a living instrument quote unquote that's in the convention itself it's purposefully developing organically all the time well i suppose the point i'm driving at is is that

25:55Lewis:i'm just trying to sort of understand what the hierarchy of your preferences because clearly the conservatives and reform and i know you'll say that it's flawed and so i'm fair enough but their preference clearly is to leave they think it's impossible to reform and it would just be better if we left with all of the externalities all the negative consequences therein you obviously want reform but I'm just wondering if you're unable to secure reform your position remains that it's better to stay in it as flawed as it is

26:20Jake Richards:than leave it. Well look I think we're going to get some changes into how it's interpreted because partly that's in our own hands I mean this is the point and I think this is often lost but clearly you think it needs to be changed it's not the same as the relationship with the European Union and Brexit and it's completely different a lot of this is in our own hands we're passing domestic legislation which will go through the House of Commons which will affect this so I don't accept the premise of the question but except Jake There is a really important point about the negatives, because we don't speak about the negatives.

26:46Jake Richards:These underpin agreements on trade, on security. And the Good Friday Agreement. We talk about that on the show a lot.

26:51Lewis:We're the first ones to say that. But it is the Prime Minister today who is pushing for reform. And it's the Prime Minister with Mr Fredericks and others saying that if you don't get reform, that it will basically be the handmaiden to the populace and the far right and so on. So he's the one positing that tension. So I'm just wondering that given those stakes are that high, given that he clearly believes that our membership in the current ECHR and the way that it is now helps fuel those forces, whether if we can't get reform, it would be best to just leave. No, that's not the position.

27:23Jake Richards:That's what he's saying. No, it's not what he's saying, Lewis. It really isn't. What he is saying is a rallying cry for the European community, in any forum, by the way, but this is our main multilateral political institution that we engage with.

27:36Lewis:The best way of fighting against the forces of hate and division is to show that mainstream progressive politics can fix this problem. So what I'm saying is, is that if you can't fix it, would it be better to leave?

27:45Jake Richards:But I think the ECHR is only one component of tackling illegal migration. But clearly an important one, because the Prime Minister is highlighting it. But the Council of Europe, which is the institution intrinsically linked to the ECHR, also has, as part of its four-point plan on this issue, deals around return agreements and hubs. These are practical arrangements which is going to help countries across Europe deal with migration issues. So ideally reform, but if not reform, let's stay in. Well, it's not quite stay in. I mean, I think you're trying to use language.

28:17Lewis:Sure, let's be more precise. Try and reform, but if we can't reform, remain a signatory in the current form.

28:23Jake Richards:I essentially don't accept the argument that leaving will have any benefit on our ability to tackle the migration crisis in our country. if someone can persuade me of that I'll consider it but trust me I've read pretty much every legal analysis there is on this and no one has yet to do that and I think that's because there isn't a case for that

28:38Lewis:you all know today that a series of public figures celebrities and others including Michael Palin Stephen Fry Joanna Lumley have written urging you to sort of stop this they've said the European Convention on Human Rights ECHR and the UN Convention Against Torture at the heart of Britain's legacy they have saved lives delivered justice and shown the world that Britain leads not by fear but principle any attempt at undermining their universal protections is an affront to us all and a threat to security of each. What's your message to those people?

29:05Jake Richards:Well, I agree with a large part of what they say. And that is why the first line of, I think, the article that the Prime Minister has written and the statement that's come out, which is signed by the UK government, is that we are reaffirming our commitment to human rights and the ECHR. But if we are going to protect this document, if we're going to make it, make sure that it continues being in existence for the next 75 years, then it has to adapt to the challenges we face today. and we are not talking about ripping up different articles or taking away that right from this group or this right from that.

29:35Jake Richards:We're talking about pretty modest modifications to fit the challenges we face today and it's just one part of this migration challenge. It needs to reform to survive. Well, look, it needs to show and the institutions in Europe need to show and the UK government needs to show that we are able to match the challenge we face on migration. And that's not just us, by the way. As I say, every single country in Europe to differing degrees and from different variations are facing this problem.

30:00Lewis:But you say, I mean, you agree with them, but they clearly disagree with you, the Palins, the Stephen Fry's, the Joanna Lomley's, because they're cautioning you against your own plans. They say that your plans are a threat to the values that they hold to.

30:10Jake Richards:I think they're cautioning against plans that we don't have because we're not trying to leave the ETHR. We're not trying to rip up the human rights out. That's the other party, by the way. That's the Conservative Party. That's reform.

30:19Lewis:Your message to them, therefore, Minister, is Jake, sorry, is that they misunderstand what your plans are.

30:26Jake Richards:Yeah, look, I haven't had a conversation with them. I've seen some media articles that they've set out. And I respect and admire anyone who stands up for human rights and principles of the rule of law and democracy, of course. But when you're in government, when you're dealing with a migration crisis, which is affecting the whole of Western Europe, you have to face up to that challenge without compromising those principles. But you have to face up to that challenge. If you don't, the other side will get in. And by the way, they do want to rip it up. It's clear, I mean, there's been all this commentary.

30:52Lewis:I just wonder if you could sort of talk about this a little bit. There's been all this commentary that Shabana Mahmood and the government overall are fixated by and interested in the Danish Social Democrats and their approach to questions of migration, but politics generally. Is that true? Are you very interested in how they've approached things?

31:11Jake Richards:I don't think we're fixated. I mean, I went to Copenhagen earlier this year to meet with SDP colleagues. It's obviously a sister party that's in government at the moment. One thing you can say is that their policy has worked. Now, we can talk about the politics in Denmark if you want. I'm not an expert. You might be, Lewis. I'm not an expert. But their policy has worked when it comes to migration. Not worked for them politically, though, has it?

31:28Lewis:I mean, they've just got hammered in all the local elections.

31:30Jake Richards:Well, they had a difficult set of elections in Copenhagen. They've got elections next year. But I would say, you know, we're in government. We're trying to find policies that work for the British people and for our country's interests. I'm less bothered about the polling in Denmark and what happened in Copenhagen. Municipal elections, frankly. I'm more bothered about can we get a grip of our borders? Can we get a grip of this problem? And if we can learn from Danish colleagues, if we can learn from anyone, then we will. I mean, it's worked in a sense. I've spoken to American colleagues as well, you know, and the lessons, good and bad, from the Biden administration.

31:58Jake Richards:I've spoken to colleagues in France, in Germany. This is a worldwide... The Trump administration? I've yet to speak to the Trump administration, but I'm very open to conversations. Do you think that their approach has worked on migration? Well, I think, yeah, we're taking a different approach to migration than President Trump.

32:16Lewis:You know what he says about our approach?

32:18Jake Richards:He says it's leading to the decay of European civilisation. Yes. Look, we've seen his comments overnight. I think what we're seeing today and what we've just been discussing actually shows that President Trump is wrong about this, that actually Europe is coming together, it's meeting the challenges we face, whether that's the war in Ukraine or the threat of irregular migration.

32:36Lewis:Prime Minister's spokesperson refused to disagree with him yesterday, but you do.

32:38Jake Richards:Well, look, I don't accept that Europe is some kind of decaying continent that can't meet the challenges of the future. I don't accept that, no.

32:46Lewis:Well, he's talked about civilisational erasure. Are we on the verge of civilisational erasure? It's not a phrase that I would sign up to, Lewis. Let's talk a little bit about some of the other things going on in your department. Obviously, one of the things that's been controversial over the last week or two has been the Justice Secretary's plans on jury trials. And indeed, you might have seen your senior backbencher, Carl Turner, has written about this. He's very much against it, as you know. He said, if this ever comes to the House of Commons, I will rebel and vote against this. I think the government should, would be defeated on this issue.

33:14Lewis:The House and the public will not stand for the erosion of a fundamental right, particularly given there are more effective ways to reduce the backlog. Are these plans definitely going ahead? Are you going to U-turn in it just like you did Winterfuel?

33:26Jake Richards:Look, the policy statement set out last week, these are absolutely critical plans to ensuring that our justice system is fit for purpose for victims across the country. Every single MP, their inbox is inundated with concerns, frustrations about delays in the justice system. Now, we have to look at a package of reforms, which includes investment, which includes changes to the way in which we operate the court system, But these pretty modest reforms to criminal trials is just part of that, but an important part of that. And if at the next election we go to that election and I'm determined to play my part in ensuring that we can show that we have dealt with a backlog and a problem in our criminal justice system that we've inherited, we have to make fair, difficult, but right decisions.

34:16Lewis:If it's just about the backlog, why not insert a sunset clause into the measures so that they would just be for a time-limited period? And MPs could be assured that, yes, this is a sort of emergency measure.

34:24Jake Richards:I'm not attempting to put sunset clauses into every piece of legislation, but on this, there's two things. One, it's about dealing with the immediate problem of the backlog, 80 ,000 cases, by the way, so that means that for many criminal trials, people are waiting four, five, six years even. But secondly, it's about making sure the system is then sustainable going into the 2030s, 2040s. We can't be in a situation where we deal with this crisis and then we let it develop again. And towards the end of the next decade, we have to have another review, get Sir Brian out again, and we come back to dealing with these fundamentals.

34:52Jake Richards:Well, you know, it's a serious point here, though, because this is about saving the criminal justice system and then making it fit for the future.

34:58Lewis:But if it's so urgent, then why are the proposals most likely to be tabled in the second half of next year? If it's so urgent, surely you'd want to do this now.

35:06Jake Richards:Well, I'm not sure those timings are right, to be honest. Well, that's what Carl Turner's saying. Well, Carl Turner, as we found out, is not in government. And so, you know, we'll see when they're brought forward. I've got an enormous amount of time for Carl. He's a senior member of Parliament. He's been in Parliament longer than me. I've read his article. I'll continue to listen to him. But we disagree on this point.

35:25Lewis:He says that Labour MPs deserve better from the Prime Minister to have us marched up to the proverbial hill to be marched back down again and then pretend that we were never asked to do the unthinkable in the first place. Do you have the votes for this? Are you absolutely confident that this will go through the House of Commons?

35:41Jake Richards:I'll tell you why. Because when I speak to colleagues, as I've said before, they receive a wave of correspondence from victims who are not getting justice. and by the way it's not just victims defendants as well who are waiting years and years for for their day in court to either prove their innocence or if not serve their sentence and and get on with their lives this is a problem which is affecting hundreds of thousands of people we've got to deal with it we've got to modernize the criminal justice system and i think that this no changes

36:08Lewis:you won't make any changes to it well there's a look we haven't even set out the legislation yet

36:13Jake Richards:so um we've set out our policy intent uh legislation will be coming forward uh after Christmas and I'm very confident that we'll make the changes that we need to save the criminal justice system.

36:24Lewis:Can I just draw your attention to one other story I'm not sure if you'll have seen it but this actually refers to a story from one of my colleagues on LBC Andy Hughes today he's reporting on claims that a Met police officer had child rape claims brushed under the carpet by the force and that he was involved in a paedophile ring they're now urging people to come forward if they have any more information just wonder what's your response to this concern about?

36:46Jake Richards:I've just read the news piece is obviously an important story very serious, I've been assured that the relevant authority are looking at it closely, I can't really comment much further than that because I've just read the news piece, so it wouldn't be right Absolutely, of course I mean, I read these stories like everyone else and it is deeply concerning and I'm sure that we'll do everything we can to find out what's happened

37:06Lewis:The Met Police, there's a suggestion I think from a report this week saying that the Met Police should be removed from oversight from the Mayor of London, is that something that you'd support? Well, you'd have to speak to Home Office colleagues about that You must have a view as a Justice Minister.

37:19Jake Richards:I think there's challenges in our police and on this issue of sexual offences, particularly grooming. I mean, I'm an MP in Rotherham. Before being elected, I was a child protection barrister. I know about these issues. There are real fundamental changes we need in our country. Some of those are being brought forward by the government at pace. And where there are gaps, we need to fill them. Just finally, Jake, who are you backing for leader? Keir Starmer.

37:46Lewis:You think he's going to be leader of the Labour Party in a year's time?

37:49Jake Richards:Absolutely. Look, today is another example where you're seeing leadership in Europe taking forward a really important agenda. We've got a lot of work to do in government, whether that's on immigration that we've been discussing for the majority of this conversation, whether it's on NHS, where we've made huge progress in terms of waiting lists. What do you think of all the plotting? I don't see any plotting.

38:10Lewis:You must be the only MP to have been left out.

38:12Jake Richards:Well, maybe it may be being left out, But I suspect what's actually happening is that we have a very febrile and free media, which is a good thing. And they get very excited about these stories. But look, I think that this government is absolutely determined to deliver on those priorities. I think the Prime Minister has, in the first sort of 18 months of this government, set out a framework by which we can deliver. We're starting to see that delivery, whether it's on waiting lists, whether it's on the big changes we're bringing to the immigration system, the budget towards the end of last month there's a lot of work to do I'm not for a minute suggesting that we're job done but I think what would your message be to colleagues

38:53Lewis:who are plotting and briefing to the media about it?

38:55Jake Richards:I don't think they are but look we've got to get on with the job of delivering you don't think they are at all? we've got to get on with delivering for the British people and the last thing the last thing that for me and you Lewis we follow politics on a daily basis I'm sure your listeners do as well the vast majority of people they don't follow the minutiae of politics and what they worry about is the cost of living the NHS appointments the economy in the local community but the idea that we should engage in what the Conservative Party did towards the end of their time in power is in my view fanciful and not in the country's best interest or not in my party's best interest

39:31Lewis:Jake Richards, thanks so much for joining us

39:33Jake Richards:It's been a pleasure, enjoyed it

39:43Keir Starmer:The News Agents. No, I'm not a racist. I am the least racist person you have ever interviewed. That I can tell you.

39:52Lewis:That was Donald Trump speaking in 2018. After, you might remember, he was alleged to have described lots of countries which were sending immigrants to the United States as shitholes. Well, at the time, it was really, really controversial. As you heard, he had to deny it and said that he wasn't racist. We've been talking all this week about how far politics has shifted. The Overton window has moved. And that really hammered. And that was really hammered home to us last night when Donald Trump was speaking in Pennsylvania. And he said this.

40:26Keir Starmer:And I say, why is it we only take people from shithole countries? Right. Why can't we have some people from Norway, Sweden? Just a few. let us have a few from Denmark do you mind sending us a few people

40:42Lewis:send us some nice people do you mind so controversial in 2018 he had to deny it in 2025 he's loving it right we'll be back tomorrow I assume John and Emily will have had their flu jabs by then we'll see you then bye bye this has been a Global Player original production