Exclusive: The whistleblower silenced by Facebook hits back

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0:33This is a global production. I'm going to ask you to leave. I'm going to ask you to leave the studio because you cannot be present for the conversation that we now need to have. Okay.

1:00I've never had to ask anyone to leave the studio before. So we are now in this bizarre situation where we have an empty chair speaking for Sarah because she is not allowed to talk about the book. She is not allowed to do interviews about the book. She is not allowed to hold the book. She is not allowed to be in an airport where the book is on sale. She is not allowed to be anywhere near the bookstore on her street where there happens to be her book for sale. How could that make sense to say to somebody you can't go to an airport where your book might be sold? Absurd is one way of putting it. You know, it's shameful.

1:39So what is this? This is an attempt to punish someone who spoke the truth. The idea is to erode your life. Meta, the owner of Facebook, is one of the most powerful organizations in the world. They have more money than many nation states, more influence than entire governments. So why have they gone after a woman who wrote a book? I've lived in the complexity for many, many years. And I think, but there are moments that I try and capture throughout these stories where like, it's not close. You know, like if a 13 year old girl is feeling worthless, like don't target her with a beauty ad. Like, if there's a riot going on, like, make sure you have a way to take down the stuff that is creating the riot that's killing people.

2:29Like, I don't think these are things where it's like, hmm, kind of a hard, hard decision to do. That's Sarah Wynne-Williams. Let's call her a whistleblower. She's actually a former Facebook employee and author of Careless People, the inside story of the company she knows. Shortly after she gave me that interview, Facebook called those comments defamatory. It slapped her with a lawsuit. From that moment on, she's been unable to promote, discuss, or even appear alongside her own book. She's also been unable to talk about the lawsuit itself. Last week, she hit back, suing Meta over its attempt to silence her.

3:09It's the only way she can tell the world what happened. And today, she's here. She's back with us in the studio. Welcome to the News Agents.

3:23The News Agents. It is not easy to do an interview with somebody who has been sued into silence. Today will sound a bit unusual, but bear with us because we think this is an important story to tell and we'll find a way to tell it carefully and without causing Sarah more harm than she already has. Sarah Wynne-Williams is joined in the studio here by Amy Wallace, who co-authored Virginia Dufresne's memoir, Nobody's Girl. Now, these stories have more in common than you might at first realise. It is the same story of women being silenced by powerful elites, by money, by intimidation, by lawyers, by the suggestion they are liars.

4:07Virginia was young, poor, troubled when she was abused by Jeffrey Epstein. Sarah Wynne-Williams was successful, grown up, financially secure, when she was shut down. Silencing has been used as a weapon against each, a way of exerting maximum damage. But last month, the authors were joint recipients of the Freedom to Publish prize at the British Book Awards. It is the only time that Sarah has spoken in public since she appeared here on that interview over a year ago. So let's listen to a bit of her speech from that night. The people Virginia told us about had grown rich and powerful in the certainty that they would never be held to account.

4:52So they deployed every weapon that money can buy against a woman whose only weapon was her voice. They tried to exhaust her, to make the cost of speaking so high, so relentless, so total, that eventually the spirit gives out before the truth does. But here's the strange thing. When you try that hard to silence a woman who is telling the truth, you announce to the whole world that the truth must be very dangerous indeed. Now let me say something about what it costs to witness and to write. It can cost everything. It is a speech, Sarah, about silencing women. It's also a speech about power. And it's a speech about what the powerful do when there is a counter-narrative to their power, which Virginia in her book definitely provided.

5:55and it's also a speech about bearing witness about when you live in times where which are dominated by these powerful networks these powerful elites it can often feel like there isn't much you can do you can often feel powerless um and at those times i think there is there is power and bearing witness and in speaking the things that are not normally spoken and Virginia did that. And a responsibility. Yes, a hard responsibility, yes. You also make the case for the book, the humble book itself and there's an amazing bit in your speech where you say you can't delete, you can't remove it from a social media algorithm, you can't take it out of public circulation.

6:47Books have to carry on existing. They are sort of an analog testament to the truth. Yeah. I mean, I say there's an analog tenacity to books because we live in a time where everything is digital. It can be disappeared. You know, a story you go to look up is gone. But with a book, you know, there's a reason banned books matter. You can't disappear a book. And I think we see examples of that. Virginia's book, obviously, but Giselle Pelico. I mean, there are women who understand the only way to tell their story is through a book. Is the work to publish those who are facing threats, facing intimidation, facing silence getting harder?

7:31I worry it is. I think there are, you know, increasing. I think the legal system is being weaponized. You could see that with Virginia, the legal system was definitely weaponised. And my worry is that it means that there are stories, important stories, that will never find the page. And if the legal system is being weaponised, that suggests there isn't enough pushback from states, from governments on what is going on. I mean, do governments have a responsibility to take on those who are doing the silencing? Absolutely. And I think there's a lot more that can be done. I mean, in the UK, Louise Hay had some important legislation on NDAs last year, but slaps in this country.

8:20I mean, there are a lot of stories that are not being told. And when we wonder how we get to a moment where there is so much power concentrated in a few individuals, we have to look at some of these legal measures, government measures that could unlock these stories. A lot of us, a lot of journalists, a lot of reporters in the States are finding themselves facing legal lawsuits from the Trump administration as a way of sort of shutting down the work that we might do. Just explain to us the effect that that has if you are a broadcaster or a writer or a reporter and you're facing somebody of enormous power, enormous significance trying to shut you down.

9:09What does that do to your life, your work, your ability to tell your story? Well, Emily, I think you're being very brave even having this conversation. I think we miss out on so much when people don't have the courage to push back and try and have the conversations. And I think it's beyond books, it's beyond writing, it's sort of the political moment, that the moment that we are living in is being defined by how power is centralising. and the weapons, you know, the best weapons against it are simple. There are people having a voice. There are media reporting on that. There are the investigations.

9:53There are the sort of things that are being hollowed out in all these different ways. And I think people feel powerless, but there are ways to push back by consuming media, by funding media, and by having journalists who are brave enough to tell the stories that are hard to tell. Sarah there's a lot of stuff that we are not speaking about we are having a very odd discussion right now and there is no other way of saying that except by reading out a statement from your lawyer which I'm going to do now so that our listeners our audience understands what is going on in this room. As a result of a lawsuit and Metta's aggressive enforcement, this is Metta Facebook, this is the lawyer writing to us now, I must ask that you refrain from engaging in any conversation about Metta or Ms.

10:57Wynne Williams' book during her appearance on the podcast. I appreciate the absurdity of applying an order directed at Miss Wynne Williams to constrain the ability of members of the press to engage in speech at the time and place of their choosing. I wish to emphasise that this absurdity is part of the argument we're currently advancing in the courts in the United States to try and get the order lifted. But until we can do that, this request is necessary. So I actually can't believe I'm saying this, but in order for us to have the conversation now, I'm going to ask you to leave. I'm going to ask you to leave the studio because you cannot be present for the conversation that we now need to have.

11:52Okay.

12:16I've never had to ask anyone to leave the studio before. and I've certainly never had to ask anyone, to remove themselves because they were facing legal action from an immensely powerful company that has managed to dictate what they can listen to or what they can say. They can write what they can talk about. Amy Wallace is here. You were the joint winner with Sarah Wynne-Williams. And clearly you have been at the heart of Virginia's story, Virginia's memoir, Nobody's Girl, and Virginia's silence. We're going to come on to that, Amy, but just help us piece together now. What the fuck is going on, frankly, because this doesn't feel normal.

13:08Yes. The facts of the matter are that Sarah Wynne Williams, a former Facebook executive, wrote an amazing book that is, in my view, an indictment of what some of the policies that Facebook, which started off as a very idealistic company has turned into as they have amassed money and power. She wrote that book, Careless People, and yes, it won the Freedom to Publish Award alongside Virginia Robert Souffre's book, Nobody's Girl, at the British Book Awards. And Facebook's response to her writing this incredible book, both well-written and full of insight from the inside of this powerful company, is that they have said in press releases that she defamed them, but notably, they have never filed a defamation claim.

14:07And what does that tell us? That tells us that they don't want to argue a defamation claim because they do not have the goods to prove that she has gotten anything wrong. So instead, they have put out press releases that say she is in the wrong, but they have not brought legal action saying that she has actually made any mistakes in her book, that she has a single untruth in her book. If they had won, they would file a defamation claim and they would go after her. Instead, what they've sought to do is to silence her. So we are now in this bizarre situation where we have an empty chair speaking for Sarah because she is not allowed to talk about the book.

14:50She is not allowed to do interviews about the book. She is not allowed to hold the book. She is not allowed to be in an airport where the book is on sale. She is not allowed to be anywhere near the bookstore on her street where there happens to be her book for sale. So what is this? This is an attempt to punish someone who spoke the truth, in my view. And obviously, I come to that with the baggage of having worked with Virginia Roberts-Jouffre, who faced over many years exactly the same kind of intimidation, relentless treatment that some might even call harassment, where your life is turned upside down.

15:40I know in Sarah's case, for example, they serve her with a subpoena at her home in front of her children, not on the street corner not at work the idea is certainly in Virginia's case and that's why I resonate so much with what Sarah is going through the idea is to erode your life not just with your with legal fees that cost a huge amount which now you know Sarah has now countersued last week to try to get her story out there and my understanding of what that countersuit will do for her is it will allow her to describe in a formal setting what her life has been like since Facebook has started to do this to her, has tried to silence her.

16:31So she's going to be allowed to talk about in this courtroom setting, not in an interview with you, what it's been like to be targeted, to be followed on the street, which meta Facebook acknowledges in their filings that they are watching her, that they follow her, that they take pictures of her in every setting to make sure she's not anywhere near a book is the allegation. Sorry, how can that be legal? I mean, how can that make sense to say to somebody, you can't go to an airport where your book might be sold? I mean, they haven't put that in words, but that is the implication that she feels scared to go to a bookshop on her road.

17:12She feels scared to be in the presence of her own book. I mean, what happens if you sit down on a train next to somebody who's reading the book? Is that normal? I mean, there's a reason why her lawyer statement includes the word absurdity. It's absurd. I mean, a book exists in the world. She wrote it. She stands behind it. You know that they were very careful before they printed it. I know how careful the publisher of Virginia's book was. You know, you make sure that you're not left open by a careless mistake or that you've somehow by accident or on purpose, you know, included an untruth. And she published the book.

17:53She was ready to stand behind it and defend it. And instead of allowing her to defend it, they have tried to silence her altogether. And absurd is one way of putting it. You know, it's shameful. It's shameful. So an arbitrator in the U.S. ruling said Metta would suffer immediate and irreparable loss. They have said it's false and defamatory. It should never have been published. and but the my understanding is that the arbitrator said didn't that wasn't the final ruling on the matter isn't it true you know it's it's basically look facebook has made the case that they could be damaged by this we need to send it on and consider it further so in the meantime sarah you can you cannot speak of it you cannot promote it that i think that's where we are and so So I think the importance of Sarah's countersuit is to say, I'm standing up for my right to do it.

18:55And I also would like to tell you what's been done to me in the interim period. And that's really important that the only way she can actually explain publicly what has happened is through the courts. No, she's not allowed to talk about them at all. She's not allowed to talk about her book. She's not allowed to talk about. So there's a silencing of what she knows, both of her experience at Facebook when she worked there for years, which is in the book. And then there's also a sort of silencing of her voice about what this past year or so has been like. And the bringing of the lawsuit by Sarah Wynne Williams is her chance to say, just to say this is not me.

19:40That's my understanding. And of course, we should say, you can still buy the book. You can still read the book, Careless People, because as she said, this is an analogue thing in existence and for sale in the bookshops. We'll be back in a moment talking to Amy about how Virginia used the courts to get Ghislaine Maxwell.

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21:14Amy, you will recognize the power of suing just to be able to get your voice back, because that was exactly what Virginia did. And it was the same question of defamation, right? Well, specifically, I mean, she filed many, she was involved in many, many cases. But the one that is sort of a clear echo here is that Gillen Maxwell, when Virginia went public with her account of how Gillen Maxwell had been involved in the sex trafficking scheme, called her a liar, called Virginia a liar. And Virginia then brought a defamation suit. Facebook hasn't done that. But she said, you are calling me a liar, and I'm not.

22:09I'm not a liar. I told the truth. And the case, you know, there were huge numbers of depositions taken, which allowed Virginia to speak about what had happened to her, the horrible sexual abuse that had happened to her as a way of proving that she was telling the truth. And ultimately, that case settles. Ghislaine Maxwell pays her some undisclosed amount, but to make the case go away. Because they did not want that case to go to court because there would be so much discovery about what actually happened. So how instrumental was that in putting Ghislaine Maxwell behind bars? It was key, particularly because Ghislaine was deposed several times as part of that case.

22:58And I believe that prosecutors poured over what she had said in those depositions. And it was because of those depositions and what she said under oath that they were able to bring the prosecution that ultimately put her in jail. I mean, a defamation case is a civil case, right? It's a civil suit. I mean, I guess the point is Virginia went to the place that she could go to because she wasn't getting help from the legal system, from the criminal system. And part of that is about statutes of limitations, which are complex, particularly for victims of child sexual abuse. You know, they're different in every locality.

23:45They're different in different states, different countries. But typically, I think the average is that the average person who is abused sexually as a child, if they come forward at all, which most people do not, it takes them until they're about 40 years old. And a lot of the statutes of limitations are much shorter than that, that you have to file within 10 years, you have to file within 12 years. You're only maybe 20 years old at that point, if you've been abused at eight years old. So most people don't get to the point of financial independence, of emotional maturity, of having had enough therapy that they can muster the courage to take on whoever has hurt them in the past.

24:26They don't get there until after the statute of limitations has run out. And that was actually something that Virginia really felt strongly about wanting to, her next, after the book came out, her next focus was going to be on trying to remove statutes of limitations. It's called Virginia's Law. It is. It hasn't passed yet. It hasn't passed yet. So let me talk about where we are. You and I first spoke last year, last autumn, when your book came out. Within days, we saw Prince Andrew's title removed. We saw him essentially having to leave Windsor. we then saw all the pressure brought to bear on Donald Trump to release the Epstein files we saw the vote that he was in danger of losing until he changed his mind and then we had this huge drop of three million or so documents over December and January with the release of the Epstein files that people thought would somehow bring monumental change or closure or conviction and now here we are in July and I don't know if you can say genuinely that the world has changed or prosecutions have been brought or the law feels like it has teeth how do you feel about everything?

25:45Yeah it's such a complicated I mean I see some signs for hope but it is again the only word is shameful that first of all not all the Epstein files have been released only about half but separate and apart from that there are allegations by many survivors in the files of having been trafficked what does that mean that means it wasn't just Jeffrey Epstein who was abusing them it was that there was another person or people who had abused them and those allegations are in the files and those allegations should be followed up on with investigation and if possible, prosecution. Understanding that statutes of limitations kick in and understanding that you can't always prosecute and you don't have enough evidence.

26:32Understanding that people are innocent until proven guilty. But what the survivors are telling me, and that's been one of the great gifts to me of sadly having to step forward in Virginia's place to some degree, but I've gotten to know a lot of these other women who are so brave. And their sense is that those allegations are not being followed up on because they are not being asked, who are these men and what was your experience with them? When you say they're not being asked. By the Justice Department, Department of Justice or the FBI. They've given their initial statements to the FBI. Those statements in many cases are available in the public Epstein file that is now available for all of us to read, but nothing is moving forward.

27:24And beyond that, acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, who took over for Attorney General Pam Bondi, who lost her job, about to be confirmed one way or another in the coming weeks, I believe the 15th of July, he has made several public statements saying essentially nothing to see here. These Epstein files have taken up way too much of our public discourse. We are done. We are not releasing the rest of them, and we are done talking about them. And then he said, very disingenuous, I would even go so far as to say gaslighting things like, look, if any of the survivors want to come forward and make a credible allegation, I mean, well, absolutely.

28:08I never say never. We'll follow up on it. They've already done that. And what that statement does is it gives the public who hears that statement the impression that the women haven't said anything yet. They've said it. They've said it. They've said it. Maria Farmer made her first allegation in 1996. That's 30 years ago. And Virginia went public in 2011. That's 15 years ago. And there are, some people estimate, 1 ,400 women and girls who were hurt. And how many perpetrators in your estimation? Well, you know, who knows? Hundreds? All over the world. So what are they scared of, Amy? I mean, Todd Blanche, Pam Bondi, the Department of Justice.

29:00What are they actually scared of doing here? You know, obviously, I don't know the answer. I'm not inside their heads. I'm not privy to any inside discussion. But Congresswoman, now former Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican, has said that when she was really an advocate for releasing the Epstein files and that she had a conversation directly with President Trump about this has to be released. And he said something to her like, and I'm paraphrasing, you know, this will hurt friends of mine. And so if you can take that to the bank, and I don't have any independent verification that that conversation took place, but if you take that to the bank and go, okay, so it's protecting rich and powerful people, which is how it relates to the woman who's no longer sitting here in this chair, is that this is part of a broader truth in our broader culture, not just in the UK or the US, that elites, meaning people who either have a lot of power or a lot of money or both, are playing by a different set of rules than the rest of us.

30:18And I do think that that, separate and apart from sexual trafficking, separate and apart from Virginia's experience, I think that's why the three of us were sitting here together earlier, because that's the underlying thing I think we as citizens need to think about is do we want to live in a world where people with power get to skate and don't have to behave by the rules that the rest of us have to behave by? And for good reason, we need to behave by those rules. why do some people get to hurt other people whether that's in a sexual context or not because they are powerful i mean i think that's the overarching question emmy wallace so good to talk to you thanks for coming in thank you for having me um and we should say obviously sarah's voice hasn't been a big part of this conversation but you can listen to her full interview with me from last year on the News Agents episode inside the murky world of Facebook, where she talks about the book that she wrote, the allegations that she makes that she is no longer able to discuss publicly.