HackGPT: How AI escaped the lab and went rogue

16:45Will Guyatt:It's really tricky. I think there are many, many terrifying elements of artificial intelligence. And the lack of control is one of the things that concerns me the most. But my partner recently had a really rare kind of breast cancer. And since she had it two years ago, they've started using AI modelling in detection of this particular rare breast cancer. Detection rates have improved. Treatment rates have improved. So there are some goods amongst the bads, but it's when nobody is overseeing this, you've got multiple countries, states, governments, etc., all rushing to try and get supremacy in this.

17:19Will Guyatt:And when it becomes a fully military base, a tool that the military are using, Lord knows where we find ourselves then. So, yeah, there is a great deal of danger. I still remain partly optimistic or partially optimistic about what is next. But the scariest thing about this is the next big accident will happen and we will only find out about it afterwards.

17:42Emily Carver:You know, well, before we wrap up, I just wanted to pick you up on one thing you said. I can't believe that you said you used to be a video game journalist. No way. Surely not. What's your favourite? For the people who are listening rather than watching, what's your favourite of those beauties behind you?

17:56Will Guyatt:My favourite machine behind me has got to be Galaxian from the early 1980s Space Invaders.

18:03Emily Carver:You a fan of Galaxian, John? Yeah, huge. Yeah, it was from your era. I know, exactly. Will, thanks so much for marking our card on this. And, well, we look forward to seeing the future Will avatar generated at some point for the next interview. So thanks a lot. You're just listening to Will there, John. It really reminded me something he said quite early on there when he talked about the sort of essence of this story, really, which is it's a kind of halfway house. It feels to me between, as you put it, our worst nightmares and what a lot of people, particularly online, whenever you talk about AI, say is, oh, it's all overhyped.

18:34Emily Carver:You know, you're just buying into these companies kind of view of themselves. They've all got a commercial interest, which, of course, is true. And they're all, you know, competitors and looking for investment, which is, you know, ended up at about the trillion dollar mark. and i think the the sort of halfway house we're in which is that as he said um in a sense the ai was doing what it was told to do as we've said but the sort of scary thing is is that you know we can have a sort of philosophical debate about what sentience is and what conscious consciousness is but if sort of finding your way and deciding in effect to do something like that in a completely unexpected uncontrolled manner and hacking into another company when it wasn't expected to isn't a variant at least a variance of that sentience or that consciousness then i'm not entirely sure what is and it reminded me a lot when we did that special report last year on the future of ai sort of politically speaking from america and we went to ai4 you know america's biggest um ai conference in in las vegas jeffrey hinton was there who's one of the sort of godfathers of ai you know great intellectual kind of progenesis of it and um he said in the sort of keynote something which stayed with me ever since and really reminded me of what will was saying which was we our best hope in his view is that we can in these early stages of the creation of ai basically make it love us in in the way that a baby and a child loves its mother and and basically program its confines and its parameters to look after us in a way that a child might eventually look after its parent.

20:13Emily Carver:Not because it has to, in the sense that it could take lots of other courses, it could kill the parent, you know, in all sorts of ways. But we basically program our children. Some of it is biological, but we basically sort of program our children to want to be benign towards us. Now, I think in a way that's its own slightly disturbing vision that we've become sort of deeply dependent on this machine that we have basically forced to love us. and that's the sort of best outcome. But it sort of reminded me a bit of what Will was saying, which is that kind of it will do things for us. And in this case, it was doing sort of what we asked it to do.

20:46Emily Carver:But the unpredictability of it and the fact that it can get from A to B via unexpected routes remind us just how unpredictable this technology is.

20:53Jack Blanchard:And I think the other thing about it to say is that, look, we're probably in the foothills of what we can anticipate that there will be in the next five, ten years. And in those foothills, we saw what Grok started to do on Elon Musk's platform with a very selective view of history and giving you certain things which you are when you asked it for information, that it would give you a very, very biased view. and you think actually the people that are setting this stuff up you know you knew you do need to make the machines kind of love its creators like a baby would have a parent but you can also get it to do other things as well as we saw with grog and these are in the hands of incredibly powerful and wealthy people right now and are we right to be concerned absolutely bloody right maybe not right to panic but we are right to ask pretty difficult questions and then you look at the regulatory environment of you know who in the trump administration do we trust to be the people who will say actually hang on what we need to do is a b c d e f and g about this when i would imagine an awful lot of them haven't got the faintest clue what it's about exactly right and

22:05Emily Carver:as one of when we did that special report that was exactly one of the themes that we sort of talked about again and again and people can go back and listen to it was um from august last year or watch it but but that's one of the things that i mean of all of this and i won't pretend for a second to understand the science or understand the kind of technological impetus around it but i do think what you can see is lots of political and historical comparisons and analogues and one of which is i mean when we spoke to someone from anthropic for that report you know they said this is like the industrial revolution which if you know basically sort of unfolded over between 100 and 150 years from the sort of middle part of the 18th or latter part of the 18th century onwards.

22:41Emily Carver:It's like that happening in 10, 20 years. And if you think about how long it took, what we might now call rather anachronistically then, but the regulatory environment of the 19th century, how long it took and all the damage that was done environmentally, socially, politically, along with the enormous advances and the enormous wealth that was created and the society that we basically now inhabit, but created in that time. If you think about the lag time between how say the 19th century state actually managed to catch up with everything that was going on then and you think about how much more accelerated these developments are by comparison to that and the thing that worries me about it more than anything else and i think there are tremendous opportunities certainly no luddite and a lot of it is exciting but the thing that worries me is that exactly the point that you've just pointed to john which is the asymmetry between the knowledge which exists at the heart of governments and what is actually happening in Silicon Valley, what is happening in San Francisco.

23:40Emily Carver:In those labs. In those labs. And frankly, I mean, I got a bit of flat this week when it was sort of being trailed that the incoming Burnham government was abolishing the science department. I sort of said, well, I'm sure science and technology in Britain will survive somehow. And a lot of people sort of said, oh, this is such a Luddite, outrageous position. What I meant by that was is to say that, of course, it's all very well having a science department. And maybe there are good reasons to have a bespoke and innovative, you know, its own bespoke department sat around the cabinet table. But any department, no matter where you put those functions, is only as good as the people in it.

24:12Emily Carver:And what I worry about, for me, it doesn't really matter where the people who are regulating AI sit within the government, what department they're in. It doesn't matter if they even have their own minister around the cabinet table as such, only representing them. What matters is, is that the people at the heart of government are of such quality and of such knowledge and of such and have a clear statement of intent for how the government sees AI, that they are able to try and at least match the power that we're seeing from some of these companies. And frankly, let's be honest, when you've got and you see these ads go up sometimes like head of cybersecurity for the Treasury, 70k a year or 80k a year.

24:49Emily Carver:I know a lot of people listening to this will be like, that's a lot of money. But it's not in this industry when they are literally some of these companies are offering literally tens of millions of dollars in salary and stock options to get the best people. And then you've got Whitehall basically having to not hoover up not even the crumbs, but the sort of micro crumbs of the crumbs.

25:07Jack Blanchard:I mean, look, thank God we have got people who are public service orientated, who do want to go into the civil service and do really important work. But that asymmetry that you talk about is real. Because, you know, if you are having to just put this in basic terms, if you're having to get a place to live in central London and you're being offered 70 ,000 to be head of cybersecurity at a government department, or you could go and work for, you know, OpenAI or one of these other places. Or a British AI company. Or a British AI company where your software engineering brilliance is going to be worth so much to them.

25:44Jack Blanchard:What are you going to do? And that is the, you know, there are bits of it that are just, we are right to be concerned about whilst embracing the advantages that AI is going to bring.

25:53Emily Carver:Right, well, we are in the second full day of the Burnham government and he hasn't been talking about AI. You guessed it. He's been talking about buses. Stay with us.

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26:49Emily Carver:So, as I said, this is the second full day of the Burnham Premiership, and you may be unsurprised to hear two things. The first is, as we were saying yesterday, that he is continuing his cost-of-living drive. He is very keen that the message being sent out from this government, from his ministers, cost of living is their number one priority. And as part of that, the second thing, about which you may not be surprised, is that Andy Burnham has decided to address some of those cost of living pressures by talking about buses. Here he is in Bath. But it is going to mean tax rises come the budget, isn't it?

27:23Jack Blanchard:No, we'll take decisions on tax at the budget. This is about reprioritising in this phase. As I say, going to the public's priorities, the cost of living crisis, the housing crisis. How much longer are we going to talk about these things without actually doing something to help people? And already in the space of a few days, I've made a number of moves that will deal with some of these challenges, although I appreciate there's a lot more to do.

27:51Emily Carver:You also said on Monday that the complaint you heard most often on the doorstep was about the freezing of the personal tax allowance. So are you going to do something about that or not?

28:00Jack Blanchard:Well, it's funny these days. You can't answer a question honestly without them people reading everything else into it. You are Prime Minister. Yes, but I want to answer questions honestly in this job, as I said before. I think that's all about trusting politics and doing politics differently. And I'm determined to keep working in that way. It was raised a lot. But I then went on to say, But we'll have to look at it at the budget alongside everything else. So no commitment, no unfunded promise. You know, it's just perhaps the way politics is these days and the way people report things. But that was an honest answer.

28:42Jack Blanchard:There is no commitment at this point to change. But we will look at that at the budget. I don't know where he is in Bath, but it sounds like there's a seagull convention. There seems like there's a seagull convention going on beside him with that racket. What's a seagull convention? Where seagulls come together for their annual general conference.

28:59Emily Carver:Oh, I see. Right. The trade union, the general trade union of seagulls and other gulls and other birds and other raptors. Affiliated workers. Affiliated workers. Yes. Very good.

29:11Jack Blanchard:Yeah. So, I mean, look, we talked yesterday that this is the absolute focus of Andy Burnham. um questions arise from it which is really you know two quid okay it's important but is any of this do people think oh well i really feel that they're on my side and they're doing a lot when these are quite sort of you know relatively speaking small measures you know 45 pounds that you'll save on your electricity bills you know the maximum bus fare of two quid and i'm sure it will make a difference to a lot of people but is there a gap between what they're promising and what they're delivering in terms of maybe raising expectation that there's going to be massive help for the cost of living.

29:54Jack Blanchard:And this might not seem that massive.

29:56Emily Carver:Well, I suppose what they're trying to do is it's clear, isn't it? They've got a sort of twin track strategy with this. In fact, in a way, it's sort of a triple track strategy, which is that, you know, they've got this very long term idea of bringing forward a 10 year plan, which we're told is going to come later in the year. There's also, as you heard from Burnham there the prime minister there talked about um the budget where clearly it's going to be quite a substantial fiscal event um and then obviously in the interim we've got this summer because of the kind of timing of this change of government it's basically happening as the summer holiday starts parliament is not sitting and so all i mean they're in a very powerful position in terms of controlling the media agenda because i'm doing it very well and doing it so far very well i think they're probably rightly have got sort of opening salvos of the starmer government mind which had a few days of sort of, you know, real announcements.

30:45Emily Carver:And then there seemed again, it happened over the summer. And then there was a bit of a void, not least because everyone was sort of knackered, I think, after the general election. But the cost of that, the cost of that was, of course, everyone will remember it was filled with all of those nonsense kind of freebie gate stories and all of that, which was, you know, 95 % nonsense anyway, you know, sort of talking about glasses and all those sorts of things. There was a void that was filled. So I think I suspect in media terms whether we think or not um it's going to make that much difference to people's lives i suspect that their assumption or their objective is is twofold which is one these are might not be the most significant things in the world in terms of cost to the government or you know too much help in people's pockets but they are realizable you know people understand what they mean you know when you're talking about that coming off your bills and that's 50 quid a 50 quid a year two quid bus fare cap and so on they're either they are proper retail politics right it's proper sort of uh bread and butter politics that people understand and secondly at the very least it fills the newspaper collins and gives the media something to talk about so as not to focus as we've seen a little bit in the last 24 hours on kind of split stories and disaffected starmer stories and now all that psychodrama sort of starting all over again which it is well placed at some point to do.

31:57Jack Blanchard:I think it was interesting as well that there was also kind of an attempt to, oh my God, there's a U-turn already. They're not going to raise the threshold at which you start paying tax. And Andy Burnham in that clip there was saying, hang on, no, no, no, we're going to have a budget and that's when we're going to decide these things, which is absolutely right. I think that, you know, let the criticism start when they genuinely make a mistake or they've, you know, there's been a misstep. I think that what you're seeing is very much the sense of direction in which they want to travel. And what we're not getting yet, understandably, is the fine detail on that, because that will have to be done in a budget and that will have to be costed and that will have to be scored by the Office for Budget Responsibility and the like.

32:41Jack Blanchard:And so I think that people will come on. You've got to tell us now. Well, no, they don't have to tell you now. They've that what they've done is a couple of limited measures and probably they've got two or three other announcements up their sleeves, I would guess that they will drip out on a daily basis um where they're trying to set their agenda and

32:58Emily Carver:their priorities yeah i think that we've seen in the last yeah 48 hours or so um you know quite a lot of the typical it's actually one of my least favorite kind of i'm don't get me wrong i'll have done it myself but one of my least favorite kind of like journalistic kind of methods is the kind of you know where's the money coming from where's the money coming from and i think it's a perfectly legitimate question particularly when large sums of money are involved clearly you know i mean if If Andy Burnham were to turn around and say, right, we're doing social care, 18 billion a year. Fair enough.

33:25Emily Carver:Like, where the hell is that coming from? You know, getting defence spending up to three and a half percent of GDP by 2035, you know, probably an extra 20 billion or so of extra spending. Fair enough. Like, where's that going to come from? I mean, in this, we are talking in the grand scheme of things about, you know, pretty trifling amounts of money in government terms. And usually they're basically saying which is true, which is that the government can kind of shuffle money from one pot to another. I do think, of course, what I just talked about not repeating one of the dangers of the of what happened to the Starmer government in its earliest days.

33:57Emily Carver:I do think that there is a danger of not repeating that. I'm sure they've got a very worked out media grid for the summer and they're supposed to be doing this big tour over the summer as well with the prime minister going to all different parts of the country. Burnham Law is also very good at the media stuff. And so I'm sure he will fill out very ably. I think there is a danger that already we're seeing. It's very clear that the Burnham government wants to have a pretty, as I said, pretty big budget and fiscal event. That's all the mood music anyway that's coming out. You can't really do the sort of things that he's talking about without doing that.

34:25Emily Carver:One of the, I think, problems of the Starmer Reeves government was that they put off that first budget for a long time. And it meant they didn't have an emergency budget. they didn't do it quickly as many incoming governments do and it just allowed speculation to just rise and to rise and to rise and i think the problem potentially is with burnham that could be even worse because burnham is you know flying quite a lot of kites you know he's talking about things i mean he's saying there look i'm just being asked questions and i do want to deal with these things but a good example the other day was he did the prime minister a little huddle with political editors um after he became prime minister i think he only took four questions but he committed to sort of force quite serious acts of news, all potentially would have serious fiscal implications, right?

35:10Emily Carver:He said he wanted to look at the freezing of tax thresholds currently frozen at 12 ,500. He talked about making flexibility of Rachel Reeves' fiscal rules, which the markets reacted a bit sort of wobbly to. He talked about rent freezes, and he talked about potentially reintroducing a 50p top rate of tax. Now, he was just sort of saying, I think in the way that, frankly, he'd probably become a bit accustomed to as Manchester mayor, where you can be a bit looser yeah with your words and you can sort of say well i'm quite interested in this or that's something i'm thinking about but obviously when you're pm and he knows this but obviously when you're p.m it's a bit of an adjustment you everyone hangs on to your every word and suddenly you know he committed four serious acts of news yeah he was just being straightforward about it but it all has big implications and i think the danger is if that keeps going we saw this with starmer government that speculation just rises and rises and rises in this kind of space that we're going to have now between the summer and whenever the budget comes yeah and look i think

36:03Jack Blanchard:that if you are going to you know seriously entertain the idea of raising the top rate of tax to 50 percent or you're going to change the you know fiscal rules then you are breaking with the 24 manifesto and then you are you know you're looking at a general election and i think that they also need to be conscious of how they manage that the expectation that an election is coming or not coming because if people start thinking oh right well we're definitely going to get an election in autumn this year if an election doesn't happen then the danger is for the you know burnham government that it looks like they've chickened out when they've never said anything about it in the first place so you know you've got you've got to be careful about when you set hairs running like that about 50 pence or changing the fiscal rules because people are going to say well hang on you must have a general election if you're going to do that you can't you know you can't simultaneously say we're going to stick to the 24 manifesto and then do things like this and And so I think that they, you know, they just got to, I think so far they're doing really well.

37:02Jack Blanchard:And I'm sure they're thrilled with the way it's going so far, but they need to be careful.

37:07Emily Carver:I think that there are ways in which there are, it's all a spectrum, isn't it? You know, are there things you could do, break with a 24 manifesto and not have an election? Sure. I mean, you know, that's not unprecedented. I mean, you know, the last Conservative government said they weren't going to change the top rates of tax. They then increased national insurance, introduced a social care levy. And they said, you know, there'd been a pandemic and therefore parts of the old manifesto, you know, reasonably could no longer apply. I think you could make an argument in some limited cases with the Iran war, you know, with some changes.

37:37Emily Carver:You could, if you wanted to, I think, probably go back on North Sea oil without too much difficulty because you could say, look, now in Iran war, we've had another energy crisis and so on. You might be able to make an argument with some of the changes on some limited tax changes that perhaps weren't in the manifest. And he would have some legitimacy to do that as a new prime minister, although there's obviously a manifesto legitimacy problem as well. But if you're starting to really move, if you're starting to do things beyond strategic kind of strikes within that manifesto, like, for example, you're really serious about doing social care and funding that and doing so by a big tax.

38:09Emily Carver:I think then clearly there's a there's a problem. Right. Although I'm sure the last Labour manifesto also said that they would sort it out. So I suppose he'd be able to say point to that. But, you know, yes, I think when she's sort of doing it wholesale, that becomes more difficult. And then you've got all these problems which we've been talking about, which is, you know, it's definitely getting worse over the last even last 24 hours. My phone's had a load of messages from more disaffected Stamorites who are more and more pissed off about what they perceive as a as an almost sort of bloodthirsty is too strong a word, but certainly a kind of disproportionate kind of element of cleansing.

38:43Emily Carver:you know they're pissed off because they feel they were constantly being lectured that the starmer faction were too factional and then you've got what they see someone put it to me is the most factional reshuffle that they've ever seen that burnham has just promoted and you you know since

38:56Jack Blanchard:we were last sitting here in the studio together we've had anasawa uh being promoted uh you know to a job in government um seat in the house of lords coming down from scotland you know it was anasawa who was the first out of the blocks yeah to say kirstarmer's got to go yeah and so another person rewarded for his disloyalty towards Keir Starmer and I think that sits ill you know that's

39:18Emily Carver:going to create bad blood it will but how do you feel about that I mean because I'm I don't know there's part of me that does say you know politics into to the victor the spoils you know I mean like and you could make an argument to say I mean I do get I mean I've had this on my phone a lot over the last I'd say 24 hours you've had people people saying look you know the message going out here is that in politics, if you're disloyal, then you win. Of course, the answer actually is, the real answer is in politics, if you win, you win. And if Starmer had won, then he would have punished all those people.

39:50Emily Carver:And you could make an argument to say, well, a lot of the people who rose to the top under the Starmer government, they weren't terribly loyal to Jeremy Corbyn when he was Labour leader. I mean, this happens within the Labour Party. There is an oscillation, a sort of carousel of different factions who are up at one moment and their people are in and then they're out. I mean, yes, I think it could be that Burnham has over egged it a bit and that there are people, you know, people like Bridget Phillips and I've heard a lot about, for example, but others as well who who who are felt not to have been just Starmorites.

40:19Emily Carver:They were just being loyal to the Labour Party leader and they've been punished for it. So it may well be that he's been over egged a bit. But I think the general thrust is is a little. Well, there we go. That is politics.

40:28Jack Blanchard:Yeah, of course. But look, it isn't Abraham Lincoln and the team of rivals that he brought together after the Civil War to try and bring everyone together and bind the wounds, etc.

40:37Emily Carver:Well, yeah, I mean, I suppose he had to stick with the people he had given he'd lost half his country. But there you go.

40:42Jack Blanchard:Yeah. But, you know, that example that was kind of often given of, you know, you work with all sorts of shades of opinion. And I think that that sense of a person, I suppose the risk of it is that it's going to provoke. Darren Jones didn't take long to be provoked to come out and say, well, you haven't funded this, so where's the money coming from? You know, and being arch like that. You don't want your government to be hit by noises off like that. And if you're feeling even more bruised and pissed off that the way that rivals and those who were disloyal are getting promoted and rewarded, then that is going to create more noise.

41:20Emily Carver:I tell you what, though, it does sort of belie, doesn't it? Or puncture the idea. there's so many sort of received wisdom sort of doing the rounds and cliches or was that we were hearing a few days ago all Andy Burnham likes to do is be liked you know he doesn't like making tough decisions ask Keir Starmer if the guy only likes to be liked or ask Darren Jones or Steve Reid or whatever you know he's got steel to him and maybe that eventually will come back and bite him it probably will but for now he's pretty much king of all he surveys and he probably feels he can do it we'll be back in just a moment

42:15Jack Blanchard:We'll see you next time.

42:23Jack Blanchard:Comp out of medications are not FDA approved. Eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

42:38Jack Blanchard:So we are providing joy and happiness. Unless the team loses, of course. And all this, of course, would not have been possible. And I say this because it is the truth.

42:55Will Guyatt:You don't need people to compliment you, Mr. President, but this World Cup would not have been such an incredible success without you. Please. Your administration, every single person in the White House, in the administration,

43:19Jack Blanchard:in the cities, in the states, everywhere contributed to create this safe and secure and joyful environment to live something that the world has never seen. This has not just been and it's not just the greatest World Cup of all times. It is the greatest human, social and cultural event that mankind has ever witnessed and seen. And we are all part of it. And for this, I thank you very much. Am I allowed to say that Gianni Infantino is so far up Donald Trump's backside that only his shoelaces are showing? Can I say that? I think he just did. Oh, God. Yeah. Uh-oh. Trouble coming. What's this letter from FIFA?

44:10Jack Blanchard:Yeah. Honestly, it comes then as maybe no surprise that now that Donald Trump's mind is turning to who should be the next Secretary General of the United Nations, who is he thinking about that could fill that role? Former world leader, perhaps? Kia Starler. Someone of unimpeachable integrity? Well, not Kia, then. I don't know. Who's he thinking about? Gianni Infantino. Donald Trump is touting that he could be a really good United Nations Secretary General. I mean, we saw how he dealt with the resolution of the crisis that took place between the United States of America and Belgium. That's true.

44:52Jack Blanchard:Over the red card delivered to Balogun.

44:56Emily Carver:I mean, world peace, but only after a successful bidding process. That's the Infantino UN. Great to see. hmm yeah well you know well i suppose to be fair he'd be the first un secretary general to have peacekeeping missions with commercial breaks so i suppose that's something and madonna and madonna yeah yeah yeah lots of refreshment breaks and sesame street as well yeah yeah you can't knock it don't can't know permanent seat on the security council for saudi arabia excellent 48 nations lovely to see do you see i'm doing so much football material this week you really have Come over me.

45:30Jack Blanchard:You've excelled yourself. I know.

45:32Emily Carver:Well, I know.

45:32Jack Blanchard:And that is saying something. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Summer is here. At Orderly Meds, we know this time is a reminder that life is full of new beginnings. Whether you're celebrating the nice weather, starting a new chapter, planning a vacation, or simply looking ahead to what's next, this season can be the perfect time to invest in yourself and your health. If you've struggled with weight loss and are curious about GLP-1 medications, Orderly Meds can help you learn about your options. Through a simple virtual process, you can connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine whether treatment may be appropriate for you.

46:07Jack Blanchard:Getting started is fast, convenient, and happens online from the comfort of home. This summer, consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit orderlymeds.com slash podcast to learn more. That's orderlymeds.com slash podcast. orderlymeds.com slash podcast. Because every new season is an opportunity to take the next step forward. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.

46:37Jack Blanchard:This has been a global production.