In short
The UK press/media reaction to Prince Harry and Meghan’s reported plan to return to the UK (a “reverse Megxit”), focusing on why the tabloids are likely to intensify coverage again, and on unresolved security arrangements.
Guest backgrounds
John Lewis (podcast host/commentator, former BBC Newsnight contributor; discusses royal policy and media culture). No other named guests appear in the transcript.
Key claims
Harry’s Daily Mail court loss was a “slam dunk” for the paper, with Harry facing major costs, undermining the idea that returning is straightforward. The UK state reportedly won’t decide on political-security provision for months due to committee backlog, leaving Harry’s security “perplexing” given his public profile and threats. The press coverage is portrayed as unusually nasty and hypocritical, escalating from criticism to mockery within hours.
Notable examples
Meghan’s 2019 quote warning tabloids would “destroy your life”; Sun/Telegraph headlines mocking the return; mention of Meghan’s alleged Netflix role in The Gentleman (uncertain); RAVEC security committee delays; suggestion Charles could fund security if the state won’t.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOBackground on Harry and Meghan's Return
2:40 to 4:50
A discussion on the reasons behind Harry and Meghan's unexpected return to the UK.
“the news agents it's john it's lewis and this story about harry and megan which i think even four royal reporters took them by surprise that there would be a reverse Megxit, as it was called at the time.”
The Impact of Media on Their Lives
4:50 to 7:00
Analyzing the role of media in shaping the public perception of Harry and Meghan.
“of the Daily Mail's legal expenses that will run potentially into millions of pounds because the insurance policy that the claimants took out doesn't cover all of the mail's legal costs.”
Security Concerns for the Sussexes
7:00 to 9:10
The hosts discuss the implications of Harry's lack of security from the state.
“The whole tone, so sneering, so unpleasant, basically like, oh, now you're coming back, are you?”
Critique of Media Coverage
9:10 to 11:40
Exploring the harsh media reactions to Harry and Meghan's return and their implications.
“I'm sure Camilla's an absolute walk in the park by comparison.”
Reflections on Public Sentiment
11:40 to 14:00
Concluding thoughts on the public and media sentiment surrounding Harry and Meghan.
“Well, let's just, like, look at the press they received since the announcement that they're reversing that, right?”
Harry and Meghan's Media Struggles
14:00 to 14:40
Exploration of Harry and Meghan's challenges in media ventures.
“Look, doubtless, they did go to California hoping to do well in all of these sort of media businesses.”
The Value of Personal Narratives
14:40 to 15:40
Discussion about the diminishing returns of Harry's personal stories.
“I think of all the time because it was about himself, right?”
The Royal Connection: A Double-Edged Sword
15:40 to 17:40
Analyzing the complex relationship between Harry, Meghan, and their royal ties.
“He's got two grandkids, the king, right?”
Security Concerns for Harry
17:40 to 19:40
A deep dive into Harry's security issues and the British state's response.
“He's been part of the British state all his life, literally since he was born.”
Funding Royal Security: A Proposition
19:40 to 22:48
Discussion on the financial responsibilities for Harry's security.
“Oh, believe me, it'll be a very short meeting.”
Show all 13 chapters
Canada-U.S. Trade Relations and Tensions
24:04 to 28:04
Exploring the dynamics of trade relations between Canada and the U.S.
“Your vehicle doesn't just get you from here to there.”
The Dynamics of US-Canada Trade Relations
28:04 to 36:18
Explore the complexities and implications of tariff negotiations between the US and Canada.
“the viewers and listeners will remember different moments when you know trump slapped tariffs on and and taking them away and putting them back on again.”
Political Attire and Public Perception
39:48 to 40:34
Discuss the importance of attire in political contexts and the public's reaction.
“The views expressed should not be used for medical diagnosis or treatment as a substitute for professional medical advice.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Jon Sopel:Bite into a stacked sandwich made with Hero Bread. And the only thing you'll think is delicious. You won't think it has up to 19 grams protein, 11 to 32 grams of fiber, or just 0 to 5 grams net carbs. But it does. Hero Bread. No compromises. Just loaves, buns, tortillas, bagels, and noodles packed with flavor. Right now, get 10 % off at Hero.co with code IHEART. That's H-E-R-O dot C-O code IHEART.
0:27Lewis Goodall:All figures per serving of Hero Bread. See Nutrition Facts on Hero.co.
0:33Jon Sopel:This is a global production. I have great reservations about the Daily Mail, but you cannot look at that court judgment and think that it was anything other than a slam dunk for the Daily Mail and a humiliation, and a very expensive humiliation, for Prince Harry, in which case it doesn't quite add up
0:51Lewis Goodall:about why they're coming back. This is a guy who did fight for his country. He clearly likes Britain. He loves Britain. He's been part of the British firmament, the British state all his life, literally since he was born.
1:01Jon Sopel:He's a great loss to the royal family, not being part of it.
1:04Lewis Goodall:100%. And I think, you know, we shouldn't lose sight of that. I mean, the fact is, for all of the joy and schadenfreude that the press have about these two being estranged, I don't think anyone can doubt that their estrangement was a catastrophic loss for them as an institution that was seeking to renew itself. And we're told, I mean, there's reporting I saw today basically saying that the relevant committee that's responsible for deciding whether political figures get security is backed up.
1:34Jon Sopel:If that reporting is correct would be the British state at its very worst. I mean you know I'm sorry we can't make a decision on this until nine months because the committee won't meet before then. I mean that is just nonsense.
1:44Lewis Goodall:When I first met my now husband my friends were really happy because I was so happy but my British friend said to me, I'm sure he's great, but you shouldn't do it because the British tabloids will destroy your life.
2:00Jon Sopel:That was Meghan Markle back in 2019, justifying, explaining why she and the Duke of Sussex and her, the Duchess of Sussex, had moved to the United States of America. They're now coming back, but it comes as Prince Harry has lost a major court case against the Daily Mail, so the tabloids will be as red in tooth and claw as ever and he's not going to get a security detail provided by the state so what has changed and what will be different if they do come back welcome to the news agents
2:40Lewis Goodall:the news agents it's john it's lewis and this story about harry and megan which i think even four royal reporters took them by surprise that there would be a reverse Megxit, as it was called at the time. After, of course, back in 2020, Harry and Meghan decided to step back from royal duties. And they wanted a sort of half in, half out situation. That was something that was not apparently available from the royal household and the late queen. Ever since then, of course, they've been living in a rather luxurious retreat in a$15 million home in Montecito in California. and at the end of last week we learned that both of them actually wished to return to the UK apparently for just in time for the new school year to begin and this has taken everyone by surprise because of course there has been such a let's put it this way, I think it's fair to say a freeze in relations in the subarctic kind of territory between certainly William and Harry and then we learned 24 hours later or at least it was rumoured that one of the reasons that Harry might be returning to the UK or be in a position to be able to do so is that Meghan may be returning to her former life, the Duchess of Sussex, as an actress with a potential role in the Netflix series The Gentleman, which is subsequently, there's been some confusion about whether that is actually going to happen or not.
4:01Lewis Goodall:Nonetheless, it is something that for the royal world, and actually for reasons we'll get into, the British political world, has come as a bit of a bombshell.
4:09Jon Sopel:look when they left there were two things that kind of were the barriers it seemed to their return one of them and these have been publicly ventilated was their resentment at the tabloid press and we played that clip of meg and markle at the top of the podcast back in 2019 talking about how ghastly they are on friday the day after they announced they're coming back harry goes down in flames against the Daily Mail. The most excoriating judgment he lost on all counts damages are being awarded to the mail with Harry is going to have to cough up to pay an awful lot of the Daily Mail's legal expenses that will run potentially into millions of pounds because the insurance policy that the claimants took out doesn't cover all of the mail's legal costs.
5:02Jon Sopel:So that's one area where you think, well, that doesn't make sense. And that doesn't add up as a reason for coming back. And the other is that Harry said that he wanted to have security provided by the state because he is a public figure and the pair of them have faced threats. And therefore he would need the British state to provide security. And Andy Burnham was asked about this and skirted round it quite elegantly, but essentially said, Harry, mate, you're on your own. Is the government going to establish their security and pay for it? Well, this is a private matter. It's a matter for Harry and for Meghan.
5:43Jon Sopel:And we wish them well in the move that they're making.
5:45Lewis Goodall:Yeah, I think we should talk about the security element. Because I have to say, I don't know about you, John, I find the security angle and the fact that security hasn't been provided to them and to Harry as really quite perplexing. But before we get on to that, I just wanted to say something. and I think this is in a way why this is worth talking about, this story, about the press reaction to the fact of their return. And I have to say, I mean, as you know, listeners and viewers know, I don't take a huge interest in what is going on in the royal family and with the Windsors, God bless them. And in many ways, there is very little about them or about their life that I have a great deal of sympathy for.
6:26Lewis Goodall:nonetheless I think the reaction to this story has shown the British press and our media culture at its most ungenerous most unforgiving most unpleasant ironically enough everything actually in so many ways the actual spirit of the average British person is not and I would bet anything that the reaction to the idea of these two people coming back to Britain is at least to some extent quite significantly at variance to that. What do I mean by that? The whole tone, so sneering, so unpleasant, basically like, oh, now you're coming back, are you? Oh, now you wanted to come back. As opposed to what should just basically be a story about, which on paper, right, should be quite a pleasant thing.
7:17Lewis Goodall:I mean, this is a guy who presumably, I mean, pleasant thing out, an unpleasant thing. This is a guy presumably wants to spend time with his father, who apparently we're told, although we're not told very much about it, continues to be quite ill, potentially quite gravely ill. These are two people who are coming back to the UK to a reaction which, among other things, I mean, The Sun, for example, published a piece. No sooner has the news dropped virtually framed around Harry and Meghan's seven biggest hypocrisies, contrasting his return with Harry's previous security concerns. Meghan's reservations about raising children here and their description of royal life.
7:52Lewis Goodall:Telegraph readers were treated to articles including God help us all. God help us all. I mean, this is someone who at one point was what, second, third, whatever it was in lines of the throne, simply coming back to the country of his homeland. It is bizarre and a sort of part of our media and political life that I just do not and cannot get my head around.
8:12Jon Sopel:I suppose, look, OK, we know where you come from on the royal family. I suppose that if you are in the royal family and you are meant to keep the dignity of life in the royal family upheld, and then you do a book like Spare and you do TV interviews with Oprah where you hang out the dirty laundry, it's not surprising that people might be askance at, hang on, what's changed? and the other thing about it is okay if it is about the king and his failing health it certainly seems to have blindsided him that he was coming back I mean given the sensitivities involved given the amount of Colin Minches it is going to generate given the manner in which they left and the manner in which they've lived their lives in California and the illness that has kind of beset the royal family since then you'd have thought there would have been a bit more planning uh unrolling of the statement and it just seemed to have catch every caught everybody by surprise as if it was the latest kind of harry and megan maneuver and i i i'm sorry to be cynical about it but you have seen a lot of that and i know people who worked for them before they moved back to California and they're not the easiest and you can just see the number of comms directors they've got through and all the rest of it.
9:42Lewis Goodall:I'm sure Camilla's an absolute walk in the park by comparison.
9:44Jon Sopel:Well I've no idea but you don't hear the same number of resignations from the royal household as you do from those that are working for Meghan Markle and Prince Harry. The fact that they hadn't discussed it with the king it seems and that nothing had been sorted out and then you get the sort of idea, not denied, that it's all about because she's got some acting role, which it seems she hasn't because this show that she was going to be in, The Gentleman, hadn't been commissioned. But this is what I mean, Joe. I mean, I saw pieces criticising that,
10:16Lewis Goodall:saying that she, you know, even if she's a non-working member of the royal family, that, you know, she shouldn't be going back into acting. Good for her. No, I agree with that. If she wants to go back into acting, they can't win these people. And what I'm sort of trying to get at is this. He's right. is that this is absolutely, you can look at it a different way. And I'm sure, I'm sure they're not easy people. I'm sure none of them are easy people to deal with. They are brought up in this institution, which is deeply weird. It encourages them to have a kind of weird dependency. Well, it just encourages them, forces them to have a dependency on the British state and all the flunkies.
10:48Lewis Goodall:And of course, I get all of that. I'm sure it's not easy. They're not easy to deal with. And anyone who's read Spare can clearly see a pretty complicated man, an emotionally complicated man, you know, not least for some very understandable and obvious reasons. But it's like the whole reaction precisely encapsulates the reason they left the bloody country in the first place. I mean, you know, the British president, I remember when they first left, I remember doing a piece about it on Newsnight in 2020, just before COVID. It was my first week back at Newsnight and I was told, Lewis, I want you to do a piece on this.
11:19Lewis Goodall:I said, well, I'm not really the royal editor. They said, yeah, but you are the policy editor, right? So, I mean, this is royal policy, right? I came to see just how much that yarn could be expanded over the course of the next year. But anyway, like, and I remember, like, explicitly so much of the press at the time being like, they've had a brilliant press. How dare they complain about the press they've received here? How could they possibly say that? Well, let's just, like, look at the press they received since the announcement that they're reversing that, right? As I say, like, the nastiness itself is part of the story.
11:50Lewis Goodall:They left complaining about the extraordinary hostility of the press. And within hours of announcing they were coming back, sections of that same ecosystem responded by going, you failure, you hypocrite, you failed in California, you didn't do Netflix well, your podcast was shit, you're opportunists, God help us all. I mean, you know, the press couldn't have made the Sussex's point better for them, in my view, whatever their personal demerits and personal failings, which about which we hear much and about which is basically consistent. Of course, we rarely see the press turn that lens upon themselves and maybe think about how they've their part in the whole affair.
12:25Jon Sopel:No, I don't disagree with you on that. I think that, you know, some of the press coverage of Meghan Markle compared to, you know, Kate Middleton. It was, you know.
12:37Lewis Goodall:They've had a worse press than Andrew at times, John, I would say. I mean, see, I'm not even joking. I've seen some people defend Andrew who've attacked Meghan.
12:43Jon Sopel:Yes, look, there is an absolute nastiness, I think, to a lot of the coverage. But I still think then that raises the question. So why are they coming back? particularly given the scale of the defeat that Prince Harry had at the hands of the Daily Mail, where Judge Nicklin couldn't have been more explicit about the vexatious nature and the kind of jumped up nature of the complaints that were made and the fact that there was precious little evidence of anything that was alleged against the Daily Mail. I mean, you know, I have grave reservations about the Daily Mail, But you cannot look at that court judgment and think that it was anything other than a slam dunk for the Daily Mail and a humiliation and a very expensive humiliation for Prince Harry.
13:28Jon Sopel:In which case, it doesn't quite add up about why they're coming back. And I think that to raise the question and to speculate about it or to just try and find a rational explanation, which I think we're trying to do here on the podcast, is not an unreasonable thing to do.
13:43Lewis Goodall:No, I agree, of course. But I suppose the truth is, I mean, as ever with this press coverage, it's so binary. I mean, the truth is, there's probably all sorts of stuff going on, right? Some of which none of us, neither of us know, and they won't know. And I'm sure some of it, I mean, look, some of it, doubtless, will be about the facts. And this is, again, I think, like, encapsulates for me the sort of sadness of his position and their position in so many ways. Look, doubtless, they did go to California hoping to do well in all of these sort of media businesses. And it hasn't really worked. When it worked, because they try and come up with podcast series that don't really work, or interview series that don't really work because it's not really them, right?
14:14Lewis Goodall:I mean, like Harry, by all accounts, you know, at one point was, you know, brainstorming with various podcasting companies and one of the better ideas he could come up with is he would travel around the United States sort of testing hot chocolate in different places and then reviewing it. That's according to New York Times. You know, we're not dealing with a media genius here. I think we can all agree with that. The sad thing is, is where they're most marketable and where they're most vital is when they're talking about themselves. Harry's book, what became the best non-selling fiction book, I think of all the time because it was about himself, right?
14:43Lewis Goodall:It was about his...
14:44Jon Sopel:But there's a law of diminishing returns on that because once you've done it, once you've said what life is like inside the royal tent, the second, third, fourth, fifth time you say it, it diminishes.
14:56Lewis Goodall:Sure, indeed. But I suppose what I'm saying is that this is the sad thing about the story for me in a way, if that is part of it, which I'm sure it is, which is like, here is two people or Harry, you know, to some extent he was forced out, to some extent he tried to make his own way. As ever with the royals, they can't even when they've left the gilded cage they're still part of another gilded cage right they're still at their most lucrative their most vital they're still in the column inches they're still at their most relevant basically when they're royal and it seems to me that this return potentially is about that more than anything else it's about the the inescapable reality dawning on him that basically being royal is what he is and even if he wanted to escape it the tragedy is he
15:35Jon Sopel:cannot do you think that i mean i just think that if they wanted i mean there's there was the story of megan barkle ringing up a couple of republican and democrat senators to lobby them she's an american citizen and she rings up as the and leaves a message as the duchess of sussex and you think hang on so you're ringing up a u.s senator which is a republic because i think they got rid of the british royal family if memory serves me correctly they love a title more than we do exactly but what but what is she doing then as a u.s citizen saying oh could i have a conversation with you i'm the duchess of sussex so there are things that they have done that i mean there's another theory about why they're coming back now which is uh which sounds outlandish but i'll run it past you anyway go on which is that once you have been out of the country for five years you can then you're non-domiciled for tax purposes which means that if you've got money in a business account which has been growing you know i don't know i'm just guessing if you've got 10 million quid in this account and you a business account and you wanted to take it out well if you're a uk taxpayer you would pay tax on all of that if they go off just before they come back from america and i don't know go to the bahamas for a couple of weeks then they could take it all out and none of it would be subject to tax and so there's someone who they're saying there is a very neat tax explanation for why and why now well who knows perhaps i mean you know as i say all of these
17:02Lewis Goodall:kings could have a confluence couldn't they is also i mean we're never told about the king's health which i as we've discussed before i find pretty extraordinary that we've got a head of state about whom we don't know the true condition of his health we don't even know what type of he's got right but apparently that's okay that's that's just rude to ask so fine but we are we do know he's ill i mean presumably it is not inconceivable that he wants to be near his father in what are almost certainly one way or the other the twilight years. He's got two grandkids, the king, right? As far as I know, he has seldom seen.
17:32Lewis Goodall:Also part of that. And also, like, I'm sure some of these cynical reasons, they're there. It's also true, I suppose, that, you know, this is a guy who did fight for his country. He clearly likes Britain. He loves Britain. He's been part of the British state all his life, literally since he was born.
17:46Jon Sopel:He's a great loss to the royal family,
17:48Lewis Goodall:not being part of it. 100%. And I think, you know, we shouldn't lose sight of that. I mean, the fact is, for all of the joy and schadenfreude that the press have about these two being estranged, I don't think anyone can doubt that their estrangement was a catastrophic loss for them as an institution that was seeking to renew itself, right? However difficult they were and are, and I'm sure all of that is true, just like many other members of the family, but nonetheless, however difficult they were and are, they did look different for obvious reasons. She was unbelievably glamorous, unbelievably...
18:22Jon Sopel:And that was initially the tone of all the coverage.
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18:26Lewis Goodall:Yeah. Yes. But as you know, they build it up and they knock it down. Right. And look, all I'm saying is whatever the rights and wrong of the coverage and whatever, you know, the message that went out to some people, particularly younger people who naturally would have gravitated to them and to her in particular. And the potential for renewal of that, it was a failing on the part of them as an institution not to find a way through that. Surely there could have been a way to keep them in the tent, right, pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in. And then I just think that, you know, in terms of kind of not least because I mean, like the message this stuff sends out by having them estranged in this weird status.
19:04Lewis Goodall:I mean, now there is genuine political discussion going on about whether he should have security. Right. It should be paid. Now, it seems to me, I mean, I'm no, again, I believe in a slimmed down royal family, but he is insofar as I believe in it at all. But he's still a pretty senior member of the royal family. I do find it quite extraordinary that if he were to return to the country, I find it pretty extraordinary the British state doesn't pay for his security already. I mean, you know, I'm no fan of the registry principle, but if you've got it, the guy cannot help but be indelibly attached to the British state.
19:34Lewis Goodall:He rather stupidly talked about the number of Taliban that he'd killed in Afghanistan. That made him a bigger target. And we're told, I mean, there's reporting I see, I saw today, basically saying that the relevant committee that's responsible for deciding whether political figures get security is backed up and won't be able to review the case for some time, despite the fact that Harry has apparently been ringing up the Home Secretary in a state of some despair, trying to get an answer. I mean, what a shocking indictment of the British state, right, that if this fusty old committee just can't meet a few more times to kind of get through the backlog a little bit, that someone who is the king's son, who clearly would potentially be a security threat, as Lord Bungalunkit has talked about today, is not able to be conferred security for him and his family.
20:21Lewis Goodall:It seems pretty extraordinary to me.
20:23Jon Sopel:that would be if if that reporting is correct would be the british state at its very worst i mean you know i'm sorry we can't make a decision on this until nine months because the committee won't meet before then i mean that is just nonsense and so of course yeah i think the security should be the least of it and i think that you know if the metropolitan police or whoever are the people that do this make a judgment i mean i do feel sorry it's called ravek the royal
20:49Lewis Goodall:and VIP executive committee, Ravek. Yeah.
20:52Jon Sopel:Are you sitting on that committee?
20:53Lewis Goodall:Oh, believe me, it'll be a very short meeting. So I think that, you know, I do think that the protection,
21:01Jon Sopel:the role of the police offering protection to significant people in this country, they are probably massively overstretched right now, given the threats that there are to MPs, given that you're widening the number of cabinet ministers who have security, given the fact that we have 10 former prime ministers who all, you know, need protection 24-7. You know, the diplomatic protection squad needs expanding seriously. But the idea that Harry wouldn't get any security at all does seem nonsensical when, you know, if he was to walk kind of into Leicester Square now, he's going to be mobbed. There's going to be a crowd around him.
21:39Jon Sopel:And just to navigate some of that doesn't seem unreasonable.
21:42Lewis Goodall:I mean, I have got a potential solution, John. I'm willing to offer it to the public. Let's hear it. Well, in terms of paying for it. Now, I'll say preface this by saying I think the British state should pay because it's not his fault he was born where he was and I think he and his family clearly deserve it. But if, for whatever reason, Ravek isn't going to meet until October 2029 or whatever, then, of course, there is an interim solution, which is his extremely loaded dad, the king, could put his hand in his pocket, just the thought, to provide security for his second son and his two grandchildren and his daughter-in-law, Not least, as we learned last month, that King Charles is for the third year in a row due to receive a bumper settlement from the British taxpayer as a result of a boom of one billion in profits for the Crown estate via the offshore wind sector.
22:29Lewis Goodall:Because for some bizarre reason, the Crown literally owns the seabed around this country. There is an offshore boom in wind going on for which the Crown receives a fee, obviously. And then quite a bit of that goes back to the taxpayer, but quite a bit goes back to his majesty. So just a thought, Chuck, you could put your hand in your pocket. Did you just call him Chuck? His Majesty Chuck. HMC.
22:52Jon Sopel:But I suppose, look, but that would still be taxpayers' money. I mean, I suppose there is kind of an element in this in which we are saying that the royal family is more accountable in all of this about who receives security and not, and that there is more transparency about some of these issues. I mean, I know it's still an absurdly opaque institution. and I kind of, I think it's either got to be totally secret or completely open because I think a halfway house in our media age is just, you know, the figures that you've just given just beg too many questions about, you know, why?
23:27Lewis Goodall:If Princess Anne gets it. Of course, I was thinking that earlier, but then I remembered that she did get, someone did try and kidnap her in the 70s, didn't they? They did, yeah. I was reading about that today. I didn't know much about it. And it turns out I didn't realise that she was saved by a boxer who just happened to be walking past Buckingham Palace. Yeah. Punched the assailant, who now claims that he was put up to it in a self-published memoir. I wonder why he couldn't get a publisher. We'll be back in just a moment.
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24:40Last spring, I warned that America is trying to break us so they can own us.
24:48Jon Sopel:And I promise that that will never, ever happen. We are keeping that promise. Canada is becoming stronger and less dependent on America. We are already giving ourselves more than they can take away. And we are just getting started. That is Mark Carney in an address to the nation following the breakdown of trade talks between Canada and the US. And the war of words at the moment between those two nations has really intensified. And if you think that they are the closest of neighbours, that Canadians have always fought alongside Americans in endless wars over the past century, that they have been the most loyal, dependable of allies.
25:31Jon Sopel:And Trump is absolutely seething and thinks that Canada is ripping America off. Indeed, posted in the last half hour, Canada will be treated like a state no longer on trade and in other ways. Also, they are among the worst nations in the world to deal with. They feel entitled and yet... Among the worst. Yeah, among the worst. Yeah, and they feel entitled and yet, block capitals now. We don't need Canada. They need us. They do 95 % of their business with the US, with us the exact opposite. Thank you for your attention to this matter, President Donald J. Trump. So that is his riposte to the fact that I think, you know, there are differing accounts of why the talks broke down.
26:15Jon Sopel:Are you going to believe Donald Trump or are you going to believe the Canadians? I'll just put that out there. But apparently the Americans completely moved the goalposts at the last minute and the canadians said enough i'm just just loving the idea that
26:28Lewis Goodall:canada a nation of ned flanders could possibly be considered among the most difficult countries in the world to deal with famously the most polite lovely nice gentle not north korea china russia no no no no the canadians they're bastards honestly they're impossible but the
26:46Jon Sopel:interesting thing about it is that trump has made this calculation that look we don't need canadian oil. We don't need Canadian lumber to build all our houses. And the fact of the matter is that Americans do. I mean, it's absolutely true that America is a net exporter of oil, but American oil refineries need the sort of type of heavy crude that comes from Canada. There are no pipelines going from Texas up to the upper Midwest of America. So if the Midwest, which is the industrial heartland of America is to continue to function it needs Canadian oil and yeah it's true that there is American lumber as well it's just that Canadian wood is better for building houses so it's going to affect everything in America too and the Wall Street Journal which is not normally the most sympathetic of voices to kind of the liberal views of America has gone on the absolute war path about how stupid uh this is on the part of america and said you know this is one of the dumbest things ever it can't be justified politically or economically so you know but
27:53Lewis Goodall:donald trump is absolutely doubling down as he always does indeed and i think actually uh obviously this is part of the ongoing um long-term saga about you know us canadian relations and you know the viewers and listeners will remember different moments when you know trump slapped tariffs on and and taking them away and putting them back on again. But I think this is a particularly kind of meaningful moment precisely because of where and about what the talks seem to break down or at least a sort of big component of it, which is this wasn't just about, you know, particular tariff rates on particular products in either direction, which I think, you know, the Canadians could live with.
28:33Lewis Goodall:You know, they were willing to give more on that. Now, people close to Carney, sort of briefing the Canadian press and others, basically say that, you know, what this was about and the reason they had to walk away, which is very revealing of Trump's mindset, is that what Trump really wanted to do was place a permanent limit on Canada's ability to conduct trade deals. In this, you might argue there's some sort of glimmers of some of the Brexit negotiations. And we're talking about we'll be part of the custom union. And people said, no, we couldn't do that because, you know, we couldn't do our own trade deals.
29:05Lewis Goodall:Basically, cut a long story short, one of the big demands which apparently came out of relatively nowhere is that the US government wanted to basically reduce or take away entirely a key lever of economic policy decision making for Canada. in terms of, as I say, making other trade deals with other countries, which would further pull it in to the American economic orbit, which is, of course, all part of the wider design about which Canadians now are deeply, deeply sceptical of America, which has been under this second Trump administration, basically making Canada, not just into the closest of American allies, not just close within the American economic orbit, which it's always been, but actually a 51st state.
29:50Lewis Goodall:And clearly, in terms of that degradation of sovereignty, Carney wasn't willing to wear it.
29:54Jon Sopel:The thing about a trade war is that you've got to be able to withstand suffering on both. You know, if America is to win the trade war, and it's absolutely true that, you know, America as an economy is probably seven or eight times the size of Canada's. Canada is still a G7 economy in the world. So it's one of the biggest economies in the world, but has nothing compared to the US. So the US should be able to withstand much more pain. what you've got at the moment is that approval ratings for carney are mid-60s disapproval mid-30s and for trump it's the other way around you know trump's approval ratings are low 30s so if it comes to a trade war who is going to be most motivated to win and see this through i think it's going to be the canadians they feel that this is an absolute affront and i don't know how much support Trump enjoys with declaring war on Canada and painting them ludicrously, as you say, Lewis, as these terrible, difficult, appalling people, you know, when the North Koreans, the Russians and the Chinese are just such pussycats.
30:55Lewis Goodall:Well, David Frum, the former Bush era administration official, but himself Canadian, wrote a very good piece in The Atlantic today, John, exploring exactly some of those points, which he makes a point which is exactly right, which is that Trump always comes at these things thinking that we're the biggest, we've got the biggest economy by far, we can call the shots, we have complete leverage, you have no leverage. It's that language to which we've become very familiar, you know, think most famously exemplified with Vladimir Zelensky, of course, you know, you've got no cards, with us you've got cards, you've got no cards.
31:24Lewis Goodall:That's how he thinks, it's zero-sum game in every direction, military policymaking, economic policymaking, doesn't really matter, that's how he thinks. But of course, as ever, the world, although it might have a kernel of truth, the world's way more complicated, right? So if we look at already what's happened with tariffs at the moment. Yes, the Canadian economy has suffered as a result of the tariffs already there. But actually, why has the Canadian economy kept growing when a lot of people thought that it would slow down or maybe even fall into recession as a result of Trump's tariffs? Well, actually, it's because of Trump's war.
31:56Lewis Goodall:The Iran war, which has led to a booming demand for Canadian oil, for Canadian gas, for Canadian minerals, for Canadian food products. Canadian economies kept on growing precisely because Trump's policy in one direction is going in that in one place and in another direction is going to another. And the president has no real conception of the fact that these variables move in different directions. And then you think about like just generally speaking, we're coming up to the midterms, for example, at the moment. What's one effect of all of this? America is a massive exporter of alcohol to Canada.
32:32Lewis Goodall:Alcohol sales have collapsed. and yet if you look at some of the big swing states for for different races in these midterms whether it might be even ohio michigan even minnesota all places you know bordering the canadian border or close to they're currently what are big midterm issues these tariffs which are now going to become even more intense and the republican party is going to put more pressure on trump to unwind and this just happens again and again and again so the true picture of american versus Canadian political power and who can withstand this for the longest is more complicated than it might otherwise appear.
33:05Jon Sopel:No remember you know I was out in Canada for the for the elections last year and the fact of the matter was that the reason that Mark Carney is the Prime Minister now is because Donald Trump is the President of the United States of America. They couldn't stomach the Canadians having a Conservative who was going to be closely allied to Donald Trump. They want someone who's going to fight their corner and you'd go into a kind of an off-licence of wine merchants in you know any state in canada and any any province in canada and you're going to find that the shelves where once they were stocked with californian or oregon pinot noirs or cabernet sauvignons there's nothing there because canadians do not want to buy american goods the number of tourists going from canada to america has fallen off a cliff no one wants to go there you know so the Canadians are the ones who are digging in and saying, fuck you, Donald.
33:58Jon Sopel:We don't want a part of any of this.
34:01Lewis Goodall:Meanwhile, as you said, John, you know, Carney and his government's policy is enjoying 60 % approval rating, which is pretty unusual in a multi-party democracy, right? Like 60%. Meanwhile, Trump's is at 33 % and falling. And I know that you keep a close eye on these things, John, particularly kind of international metals prices and so on. Do you happen to know if we in Europe, if you and I were to put in an order tonight, I'm not sure exactly how you do that, but if we and I were to put in an order tonight for a ton of aluminium, how much would it cost us?
34:31Jon Sopel:Three and sixpence.
34:33Lewis Goodall:A couple of farthings. All right. No, it's$3 ,000 a ton for aluminium, but Americans are currently paying more than$5 ,000 a ton, precisely because of the tariffs that Trump has imposed. And that affects absolutely so many because aluminium is such a key commodity is affecting construction, food, everything you can imagine in America. that's driving up inflation. And that is just one commodity. And it's actually been estimated that the average American family is now facing$1 ,100 a year of extra cost just as a result of the Canadian tariffs. Because, precisely because, for all intents and purposes, for many years, the United States and Canada, to a lesser extent, Mexico, have been becoming part of one economic bloc.
35:21Lewis Goodall:And their economies, as ours was with the EU, increasingly interwoven. And you are an idiot, a fool, if you think that you can unpick that and unwind that without some of it affecting you.
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36:18Lewis Goodall:So you may have seen or heard the Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, is making his first foreign visits today and perhaps unsurprisingly is to Kiev. He took the train overnight, turning up in Kiev this morning. He's with the so-called Coalition of the Willing, other leaders and making or unveiling a series of announcement on sharing of defence technology with Ukrainians, UK French technology. but inevitably the outrage machine this morning wound up. It's always wound up, the outrage machine. That is its permanent state of being. But no sooner had he got off the train, Andy Burnham, but he was pictured not wearing a suit, not wearing, fortunately enough, military fatigues, but wearing sort of a T-shirt, sort of looked like a sort of M &S kind of like style, you know, stylish stuff, but it was a sort of T-shirt, sort of thing we've expected to see from Burnham with a little zip and trousers.
37:08Lewis Goodall:And he was accused online almost instantly of letting the country down by not wearing appropriate attire for going to see a foreign leader.
37:16Jon Sopel:I just marvel at the inconsequential nonsense that people could get vexed about, because for God's sake, you know, once he had got off the train and was doing partaking in official functions and, you know, the 35th anniversary of Ukrainian independence and all the rest of it, he's in a suit and tie. Do you reckon they're bothered in Kyiv? What do you reckon they're more bothered about? Exactly. They're more bothered about getting access to the materials that you need to make storm shadow missiles to defend themselves against Russian attacks and be able to strike deep into Russia to make Russia think again about the costs of this war.
37:57Jon Sopel:I do not think they give a flying fuck about Andy Burnham and whether he's got a suit and tie on. As it happens... What do they not give, John? I don't know. As it happens, he does get changed into a suit and tie. He was on, I think it's an 11-hour train journey, is it? That takes you to Kiev? Yes. I mean, bloody hell. I mean, who cares what he's wearing on the frigging train and being photographed getting off it?
38:20Lewis Goodall:Well, look, I am generally of the view, as you know. I worry about the decline in assuratorial standards, generally in politics. I do think... I hated it. I did hate it when, I mean, you know, Boris used to look an absolute scruff. I hated the way he looked. And he only got away with it because he was a conservative. If a Labour prime minister dressed like that, they would have been slapped. Exactly so. But Johnson wore a suit and still looked a scruff. I would say, in fairness to Burnham, that actually he always, yeah, he doesn't wear a shirt and tie all the time. But he always looks smart. He always looks well turned out.
38:53Lewis Goodall:And it is possible and actually desirable to have, and you did in the past, to have more variety in male clothing in politics than we have in recent years. So I think as long as you're looking smart, why not? It's absolutely fine.
39:06Jon Sopel:Honestly, there are things I will lose sleep over tonight. What Andy Burnham wore on the train going to Kiev will not be one thing.
39:14Lewis Goodall:Can you imagine if Zelensky pulled it up? You've let me down.
39:17Jon Sopel:You've been disrespectful.
39:19Lewis Goodall:You've got no cards to play. You've got no cards, Andy. You've got no cards. You look scruff.
39:25Jon Sopel:We'll see you tomorrow. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
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40:00Jon Sopel:This has been a global production.
40:30Jon Sopel:Thank you. lifestyle libre.us
From the publisher
It’s happening again. Six years after Harry and Meghan fled Britain for California, citing the relentlessness of the British press, the reaction to their homecoming has been fevered. Why can’t we leave them alone? And do they really want to be? What does it mean for the House of Windsor? And why is Harry the only senior figure in public life seemingly without state backed security these days? Jon and Lewis dissect.
AND the US and Canada are at war - sort of. Why have the latest tariff talks collapsed and what does it tell us about how Donald Trump sees the world?
Oh - and why Andy Burnham doesn’t need to wear a tie to visit Kyiv.
The News Agents is a Global Production.
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/