In short
The episode argues that the US may be running a covert “hybrid warfare” style influence operation in Greenland to enable an American takeover, by sowing discontent against Denmark and recruiting support for a Greenlandic separatist movement. It claims Denmark has taken the report seriously enough to summon the US Chargé d’Affaires in Copenhagen, and that Danish intelligence is monitoring at least three US citizens linked to the Trump/White House circle who allegedly travel between the US and Greenland to build a liberation movement. Reported tactics include compiling lists of Greenlanders sympathetic to Trump, identifying opponents, and spreading narratives to divide Greenland from Denmark. A key example cited is a prior Wall Street Journal report about covert US influence tied to minerals and national security. The episode then pivots to UK politics: a discussion with Nick Thomas-Simmons on small boats, EU relations, and ECHR “interpretation” vs “disapplication.”
Guests
Niels Fosterup (investigative journalist at DR, Danish broadcaster; broke the Greenland story) and Nick Thomas-Simmons (Cabinet Office minister for EU-UK relations).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOCovert US Operations in Greenland
0:45 to 2:15
Discussion about allegations of US covert operatives in Greenland.
“among the native population with their Danish rulers.”
Danish Government's Response
2:15 to 4:42
Exploration of Denmark's serious response to US actions and the implications.
“citizens with close ties to President Trump and the White House who are thought to have been canvassing local support for an American takeover of Greenland.”
Investigative Insights from Niels Fosterup
4:42 to 6:35
Interview with journalist Niels Fosterup about the investigation into US activities.
“This seems an extraordinary thing for the United States to do to an allied country, albeit one that it's had obviously a difficult relationship with of late.”
Clandestine Activities Described
6:35 to 8:04
Details on the alleged clandestine activities aimed at influencing Greenland.
“is a pattern of travel activity where you would have these U.S.”
Denmark's Concerns and US Interests
8:04 to 9:16
Discussion on the Danish belief in US intentions regarding Greenland.
“Yes, this is, of course, an analysis or a speculation.”
Hybrid Warfare and Covert Operations
9:16 to 12:14
Exploration of hybrid warfare methods and their implications for US actions.
“least put intolerable pressure on Denmark to hand Greenland over.”
Historical Context of US Covert Actions
12:14 to 14:00
Contextual discussion about historical US covert operations and their evolution.
“We don't usually expect it to come from the Americans, at least in the West itself.”
The Covert U.S. Interests in Greenland
14:00 to 19:22
Exploring the U.S. strategies and motivations behind its covert actions in Greenland.
“So that's kind of pretty much a non-denial denial from Tulsi Gabbard.”
The Small Boats Debate in British Politics
19:22 to 27:20
Discussing the political implications and responses to the small boats crisis in Britain.
“We'll be back in a moment with some problems closer to home, small boats.”
Addressing Civil Disorder Predictions
27:20 to 28:00
Analyzing the potential consequences of political rhetoric on public sentiment and civil unrest.
“And of course there is a very serious issue here.”
Show all 20 chapters
Addressing Illegal Migration Challenges
28:00 to 28:43
Learn about the strategies being implemented to tackle illegal migration and people smuggling.
“Because that approach of tackling the vile people smugglers, people are being arrested.”
Debate on Human Rights and ECHR
28:43 to 30:28
Explore the discussions around the European Convention on Human Rights and its implications for UK's immigration policy.
“whether that is the one in one out deal where we can send people back who've come across the channel but also in terms of changing French maritime law so that boats can be intercepted close to the coast.”
The Political Landscape and Immigration
30:28 to 33:21
Understand the political discourse surrounding immigration and the upcoming challenges from opposition figures.
“Could you imagine a world where you did choose to disapply certain sections?”
The Role of Rhetoric in Immigration Policy
33:21 to 35:45
Discuss how language and rhetoric affect public perception and policy regarding immigration.
“Whether or not we are judged on this policy in a positive way will be for the electorate to do at the next general election.”
ID Cards and Enforcement in the Labour Market
35:45 to 37:51
Examine the conversation around ID cards and their potential impact on the labour market and illegal immigration.
“think that you should introduce ID cards.”
UK's Debt Crisis and Economic Management
37:51 to 40:52
Delve into the current state of UK's borrowing costs, potential debt crisis issues, and government's economic strategies.
“So broadly speaking, yes or no, are you in favour of ID cards?”
UK-EU Relations and Trade Deals
40:52 to 42:01
Learn about recent trade deals secured by the UK and the ongoing relationship with the EU amidst political challenges.
“Are you, I mean, Labour basically shied away from this for years, from even talking about EU-UK relations.”
Debating the Future of EU Relations
42:01 to 43:39
Learn about the current challenges and debates surrounding the UK's relationship with the EU post-Brexit.
“Would you be willing to go after him on Brexit and what Brexit has done to the economy and to the country more generally?”
Political Strategies of Starmer's Government
43:40 to 46:09
Explore the political dynamics and challenges faced by Starmer's government in addressing public concerns.
“Nick Thomas-Simmons, thank you very much indeed.”
The Unwillingness to Address Brexit Failures
46:10 to 47:46
Discuss the reluctance of leaders to challenge Brexit narratives and the implications for political strategy.
“And I just don't think that kind of, you know, with Farage on the rampage at the moment, I just don't think that that passes muster.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02Lewis Goodall:This is a Global Player original podcast. We need Greenland, very importantly, for international security. We have to have Greenland. It's not a question of do you think we can do without it. We can't. If you look at Greenland right now, if you look at the waterways, you have Chinese and Russian ships all over the place. And we're not going to be able to do that. We're not relying on Denmark or anybody else to take care of that situation. We know Donald Trump wants to plant a US flag on Greenland to make it sort of the 51st state. What we didn't think would happen would be that covert operatives apparently linked to the White House would be in Greenland trying to run a clandestine operation to sow discontent among the native population with their Danish rulers.
0:57Lewis Goodall:This story has rocked Danish politics today, with Denmark summoning a senior United States diplomat in Copenhagen to demand an explanation after it being reported that these individuals are trying to recruit Greenlanders for a US-sponsored separatist movement. This is something that we've come to expect from Russia. But is this really the new way that the United States is going to behave in the second era of Donald Trump? Welcome to the News Agents.
1:34Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. It's John. It's Lewis. And we have grown used to the idea that the foreign secretary at times will call in the leaders of nations where we have fraught relations, the ambassador of Iran, the ambassador of Russia. And so it goes on where we know they're up to no good in our country and they need to be put in their box. What you don't expect is for the Danish foreign ministry to have to call in the most senior American diplomat in that country. There is no ambassador at the moment. So it's the number two, the charge d 'affaires to explain what the hell is going on and who these three individuals are.
2:15Lewis Goodall:U.S. citizens with close ties to President Trump and the White House who are thought to have been canvassing local support for an American takeover of Greenland. Yeah, I mean, this is an extraordinary story. And it's one of those. I mean, some of the details are still emerging. I'm going to speak to the journalist who's broken the story in a moment. You know, we can't be sure whether or not this is something the White House has actively authorised yet. But what is absolutely clear we know is that Denmark has summoned, as you say, John, the most senior U.S. diplomat in the country for an explanation, is being treated extremely seriously by the Danish government.
2:51Lewis Goodall:And the Danish security services are now monitoring at least three U.S. citizens with close ties, they say, with President Trump and the White House, who are thought to have been trying to create this movement for an American takeover in Greenland. And this is just not the way or not the sort of thing that the United States would ever have been considered likely to do to an ally. Back in the Cold War and others, there have been times when the CIA have got involved in covert operations in different parts of the world. But to do this against one of its own closest allies, whether it's formal or informal or authorised by the White House or not or happening on a bit of a nudge in a wig is still extraordinary.
3:32Lewis Goodall:We contacted the Danish government this afternoon and they gave the newsagents this statement. The Minister for Foreign Affairs of Denmark, Lars Loko Rasmussen, states we are aware that foreign actors continue to show an interest in Greenland and its position in the Kingdom of Denmark. It is therefore not surprising if we experience outside attempts to influence the future of the kingdom in the time ahead. Any attempt to interfere in the internal affairs of the kingdom will, of course, be unacceptable. In that light, I have asked the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to summon the US Chargé d 'Affaires for a meeting at the ministry.
4:09Lewis Goodall:And, you know, just the idea that it's the US Chargé d 'Affaires that has been called in for a kind of slapping down at the Danish Foreign Ministry is unbelievable. Lovely Danish pronunciation, by the way. Sorry, how bad was it? No, it was very good. I think very, very, very good. Very Borgen. For Hay, for John. That's what comes if you watch Scandi drama so much and you start to feel you're part of Danish politics. Tell me about it. We're joined now by Niels Fosterup, who is the investigative journalist at DR, which is a Danish broadcasting company, which has broken the story. Niels, thanks so much for joining us.
4:43Lewis Goodall:Tell us more about it. This seems an extraordinary thing for the United States to do to an allied country, albeit one that it's had obviously a difficult relationship with of late. Tell us about how you came by the story. So we received information in early spring that certain US individuals, people with links to Donald Trump and the White House, that they were active in Greenland and that they were trying to infiltrate Greenlandic society in what you could describe as a, at least this was how it was described to us by our sources, in a clandestine or covert way. And so we started investigating.
5:23And for several months now, me and my colleague have been talking to sources, including Danish intelligence sources, Danish government sources, sources within Greenlandic society and sources in the US. And based on all this, we were able today to break the story.
5:41Lewis Goodall:And is it clear whether they were doing this at the White House's behest or the US state's behest, or they're doing it off their own back, as it were? No, and thanks for bringing it up. This is an important caveat because we cannot establish at the moment whether these individuals are working on their own behalf or if they are receiving tasking from, say, the White House or even maybe US intelligence agencies. This we cannot confirm or establish at the moment. But what I can say is that this has been taken very seriously by the Danish government and by the Danish intelligence agencies. So you said they were engaged in clandestine activities.
6:21Lewis Goodall:Can you just describe what your sources said was happening? Yes, so we have a lot of details that for source protection reasons we are not able to release at the moment. But what I can say now is that what our sources describe to us is a pattern of travel activity where you would have these U.S. individuals going hin and forth between the U.S. and Greenland, and when in Greenland they would work in a clandestine fashion to try and set up what you could describe as a Greenlandic liberation movement, which has the aim of trying to break Greenland free from the Kingdom of Denmark in order to enable a U.S.
7:05takeover. The task being done, according to our sources, involves things like working out lists of Greenlanders, positive or sympathetic towards Donald Trump's plans of taking over Greenland. It also includes the opposite, trying to identify people against this or people that present an obstacle to this. And it also includes an attempt to identify certain, what you would call, stories that could be used to create division between Denmark and Greenland, basically.
7:38Lewis Goodall:And you said in your first answer, you thought they were acting at Donald Trump's behest. I mean, obviously, this is what Donald Trump wants. Have you got any kind of links in the chain which can identify a relationship between these individuals and the White House? Just to correct you, actually, I was saying that we are not at present able to establish whether they are working on their own or on the behalf of Donald Trump directly. But what I can say is that, as I said before, that this is something that is being taken very serious by Danish intelligence agencies and by the Danish government, and also that all of these individuals clearly have links to the US administration.
8:25Lewis Goodall:OK, and presumably if the foreign ministry thought that these were just freelance individuals who were American acting on their own volition, he wouldn't be calling in the American charge d 'affaires, the most senior diplomat in Denmark for an explanation. Yes, this is, of course, an analysis or a speculation. But I agree in the basic thrust of what you're saying. is. Nils, this has obviously been a story which has created a great deal of discontent between the Danish government and the United States government. You say that it's being treated extremely seriously by Denmark. Is it still the belief among the Danish government and in Denmark that the United States and the Trump administration do wish at some point to seize or at the very least put intolerable pressure on Denmark to hand Greenland over.
9:21Absolutely.
9:22Lewis Goodall:Even now, because obviously, from our point of view, this story was quite a big story at the start of the second Trump administration has gone off the boil slightly. But that is still very much the belief, despite all of the other distractions around the world that Trump is engaged in, that that is the aim of the Trump administration. Absolutely. This is something, as I said before, this has been taken very serious by the Danish government. And I think the belief is that, yes, there has been a period of silence now for a few months, but this is mainly due to the fact that we have had the summer holidays.
9:50There is a clear expectation within the Danish government that this will again move to the top of the agenda, either openly or out in the open or in the shadow, so to speak. This is maybe the case at the moment for the Danish government to handle internationally.
10:09Lewis Goodall:And what evidence do you have of how successful this covert clandestine operation has been in getting people to support this kind of, I don't know, secessionist movement that Greenland should become part of the United States of America? Well, what I can say is that it's quite clear to us that the Greenlanders are against a U.S. takeover of Greenland. I mean, obviously, there is a very, very small minority in Greenland that supports Donald Trump and his plans. but the vast majority of the Greenlanders wants to be, for the moment, part of the Danish kingdom, and then later on to become an independent nation.
10:56It's pretty clear that these U.S. individuals acting to infiltrate Greenlandic society are up against the odds that it's not like a very easy project. And so if you ask for my assessment, I would say that probably they are not going to be extremely successful in what they're trying to do. Okay.
11:14Lewis Goodall:And how well organized and how well funded do you think they seem? Well, at the moment, I'm not able to say very much about that. What I can say is that this is... Because you've got an ongoing investigation, is that right? Yes, because we've got an ongoing investigation and also for source protection reasons. I mean, every time I put out this or that detail, it has a flag on it for certain individuals, enabling them to figure out perhaps who we're talking about and who we're talking with. So that is something I'd like to protect at the moment. So that's why we are only putting out certain details.
11:53But definitely, I mean, based on the many conversations I have had with our sources, I would say, again, this is serious business. This is being described as an attempt to infiltrate using clandestine methods, Greenlandic society. And this is something that has been taken very serious by the Danish intelligence agencies and by the Danish government.
12:14Lewis Goodall:In recent years, Niels, we've become accustomed to hearing about so-called hybrid warfare from the Russians, the use of covert operations, the use of propaganda, of online tools to try and sow discontent or whatever it happens to be Western states. We don't usually expect it to come from the Americans, at least in the West itself. No, and this is, I think, an important topic that you're bringing up, that these methods that we are seeing now being deployed by these American individuals, that they are hybrid warfare methods, that they are what you would normally in spy circles, you would normally refer to as active measures, something that we know that the Russians are very trained at using.
12:58We also know that the CIA years ago, especially maybe in the 1950s and during the Cold War, that they would use these methods in Central America or in the Middle East. This is the methods being used. They come from a toolbox with a long history. But this is not to say because I cannot confirm that. I cannot prove that this is something that is the CIA or other intelligence agencies is behind. but the toolbox surely looks like what intelligence agencies would use.
13:29Lewis Goodall:Niels, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed. It was a pleasure.
13:40Yeah, an extraordinary story is earlier this year in May,
13:44Lewis Goodall:there was a report in the Wall Street Journal, which also talked about kind of what was going on in Greenland and whether there was covert influence operations, with the view that America was after Greenland's minerals as well as the national security aspect of it. And at the time, the US Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, didn't deny the report, but instead said, accused the Journal of breaking the law and undermining our nation's security and democracy for daring to report it. So that's kind of pretty much a non-denial denial from Tulsi Gabbard. So, you know, whether it be minerals, whether it's national security, whether it is something else, It does look like America is still working covertly, clandestinely under the radar to try and prize Greenlanders away from the mainland so that it becomes part of the United States of America.
14:39What's sad about this is we've spoken on the show before about how Trump is trying to make America almost like any other great power, that he attaches far more importance to the idea of strength and
14:54Lewis Goodall:sort of geopolitical heft rather than what America, I mean, America's always had that, of course it has, but it's always also had this idea of, you know, it has had a very strong sense of its own soft power. and people and countries wanting to be part of the American club, not just because it was the most powerful and the most mighty and the richest, but because of its cachet, because it represented something. What's sad about this, if it's true, is that it shows that America really is starting to behave exactly like the sort of most autocratic, sad, great powers, like Russia, for example. How has Russia tried to exert its influence and bring Ukraine into its orbit over the last 15 years?
15:33Lewis Goodall:Well, obviously, there's the war itself. the ultimate expression of hard power, but also by engaging in on a much bigger level, admittedly, but nonetheless, engaging in exactly these sort of tricks, that hybrid warfare, those covert operations, trying to influence Ukrainian politics, trying to pump money and propaganda into Ukrainian politics. We've reported from Georgia last year, not the state of Georgia, the country of Georgia, where they've been engaging in exactly that sort of trickery, funding political parties, spreading propaganda, spreading lies, putting stuff on digitally and everything like that.
16:04Lewis Goodall:Now, clearly, again, that's on a much greater level and a much more amplified level than what we're potentially seeing in Greenland. And of course, well, it ought not to be too starry-eyed to say that America is certainly engaged in these sorts of things in the past in hostile states. But to see it potentially happen to a country that is an ally like Denmark or Greenland is pathetic. But also, Donald Trump, President Trump, if Greenland wants to be part of America, it could be. if there were genuinely a secessionist movement and a groundswell of a port among Greenlanders to think, you know what, yeah, we should join the United States.
16:38Lewis Goodall:We are close to the US. We'll be richer, blah, blah, blah. That could happen. If there were a referendum, Denmark would let it happen. That is how America would have worked, at least in our lifetimes. And it isn't. And you go back to the inauguration of Donald Trump in January of this year and him talking about Greenland, him talking about Canada, him talking about Panama as these places that he wanted to take over. And you kind of thought, oh, well, it's just this kind of Trump rhetoric. I thought it had gone away, to be honest. Sorry? I thought it had gone away. Yeah, I thought it had gone away.
17:12Lewis Goodall:If you're in Canada now and you're in Panama now and you're reading that there are these covert operatives in Greenland trying to sow discontent, you surely must worry about, is Donald Trump trying to do something similar in Ottawa? Is he trying to do something in Panama City? to try and affect the same results that you try and cause this chaos. I thought it was a rhetorical flourish. I didn't think it would be real policy. Also, there are, I mean, obviously, Niels is being pretty guarded about what he says for understandable reasons with his sources and about whether it's connected to the American administration directly.
17:49Lewis Goodall:The thing about the MAGA movement and Trump's movement, of course, is it's quite possible to imagine a kind of the sort of people who might be involved in this, who there's enough plausible deniability that there are any formal links with the administration itself that it's not actual cia operatives right or kind of actual kind of people working directly for the american state but such is the kind of many-headed hydra that is the maga movement you can completely imagine that there would be certain sorts of people who exactly as the sort of copy on this story suggests there are quite direct links in one way or the other with the kind of you know formal MAGA hierarchy, but that there's just enough deniability and enough space.
18:27Lewis Goodall:You can imagine some of these people doing it off their own back. I could genuinely imagine some of these people sort of hearing what Trump has got to say and hearing his vehemence on this issue and then sort of saying, well, should we go and do this? Let's go and do this ourselves. I can completely imagine in the kind of digital alt-right world that there is, I can completely imagine this happening organically as much as it would be from any kind of MAGA central direction or Trump central direction. But you saw that with the Proud Boys and the Earth Keepers on January the 6th. These are people who are probably ex-military, slightly disaffected with the state of the world.
18:59Lewis Goodall:They want to do the king's bidding. Exactly. And thinking that they will be in his good graces if they do that sort of thing. And that is what is going on. I mean, the other idea that Trump is about American isolationism and cutting itself off from the rest of the world and doesn't want to be a part of any of the world's other issues. It's got ambitions in Canada. It's got ambitions in Greenland. So it goes on. It's the imperial Trump presidency. It really is. We'll be back in a moment with some problems closer to home, small boats.
19:43Lewis Goodall:So Nigel Farage made his speech on Tuesday about small boats, which has dominated the political discussion in Westminster for the last 24 hours. The government, having been quite quiet on this issue over the course of the summer, now trying to get on the front foot and overnight trying to rebut some of the ideas that Farage has come out with, trying to neutralise some of his arguments to a greater or lesser success. yesterday as we said as well Downing Street were actually quite reluctant to actually contradict anything or very much about what Farage has said but nonetheless I think there's an awareness in government that they need to try and start to take Farage on some of these issues and Nick Thomas Simmons who is the minister responsible for EU-UK relations has been making an interesting speech today about UK-EU and the future of that relationship which we can talk about but also has been doing a series of interviews many series of interviews specifically about the small boat issue and just to throw one more thing into the mix jack straw the former labour home secretary has written in the financial times today about disapplying certain sections of the echr the european convention on human rights now farage has called for the you know scrapping in britain to be no longer any part of it.
21:06Lewis Goodall:Jack Straw hasn't done that. But we're going to be hearing a lot more of this ugly word, disapply, because that is something that I suspect Labour government people are now looking at to work out what they can do that would give them more freedom and judges more freedom to act in a way that is more in line with Britain's interests.
21:33Lewis Goodall:well we're joined in the studio by nick thomas simmons the cabinet office minister responsible for eu relations fresh from just the 10 interviews that he's done uh this morning so this is an exclusive exclusive interview with the news agents would be a bit of a push well it is this hour it is exactly welcome thank you very much to join you um throughout august we haven't barely heard a word from the government farage does an interview and speech yesterday and a big unveiling of his plans and labor is suddenly running to catch up is that a fair characterization of what is going on no no it isn't and you know the kind of speech that i gave today is not the kind of thing that you you put together at that speed frankly uh john and what i have wanted to do in this phase of the negotiation with the EU is to come out and explain to people what the practical tangible benefits are going to be.
22:33So the common understanding that we signed with the European Union that I've led the negotiations for was signed back on the 19th of May. Very important moment but we are now in that implementation phase and what I was doing today was setting out first of all what the advantages are going to be for jobs, for renewable jobs, tens of thousands of jobs in the North Sea for additional tools that are going to be available to us to control our borders around things like sharing criminal records to a far greater extent, around things like biometric data that we can share, but crucially as well, talking about the food and drink agreement that is going to tear down trade barriers that currently exist and to put the challenge out there, frankly, to the opposition to reform and the Conservatives who opposed this before they even saw it if you are going to undo this at the next general election front up with the british people about making britain less safe about making about putting jobs at risk and finally
23:29Lewis Goodall:about putting risk to people's bills and what do you think i've kind of mentioned jokerly that you've done 10 interviews this morning what would be the headlines from those 10 interviews this or the subject of small boats and the failure to get a grip on that well the the headlines of course are what with the greatest respect to john and to lewis it's what journalists of course choose and so it is for them to choose but the message that i have been putting out today about jobs bills and borders and what this deal actually means and what its tangible benefits are has certainly i think been in the media coverage all day and we should talk about the eu because i do think it is interesting this this new tone that you're striking but but given small boats does continue to dominate and we saw Farage's speech yesterday.
Read the full transcript
24:13Lewis Goodall:Farage said something that I think has become commonplace but maybe shouldn't which is he's basically predicting that unless you do what he wants or he comes into government and does this plan that there'll be civil disorder in Britain. Do you think the country's on the verge of civil disorder over this issue? No I don't I think that rhetoric however Nigel Farage wants to phrase things is not going to solve what is a very real issue here about small boats in the English Channel. And what you have here is a very serious issue that doesn't have a single solution. It doesn't have a single silver bullet solution.
24:55What it requires is hard work, hard yards of diplomatic work, and solutions that are both domestic but international as well.
25:04Lewis Goodall:But just on this question of civil disorder, because it is quite a thing for such a senior politician to say and to predict, Do you think that it's responsible politics for someone in Farage's position to predict civil disorder if you don't do what he thinks ought to be done? Well, I'm afraid whether it's that, whether it's the point that he was making yesterday about seeking to renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement, there is, I think, an irresponsibility, yes, to certain things that Nigel Farage says. but it is of a pattern in that it tends to be grievance politics to start off with and explain the grievance and then to try to put forward very unworkable empty solutions and we saw yesterday for example a combination of saying that people are going to be detained he won't tell you where asked about women and children has no answer to that but also talks about seeking to negotiate returns agreements with hostile regimes.
26:01Nigel Farage has struggled to negotiate the politics of a parliamentary party who would fit in the back of a taxi.
26:07Lewis Goodall:Is it possible that the predictions of civil disobedience of civil disorder actually make that civil disorder more likely, that it ferments something in this country? Well I don't think it's easy to draw that kind of conclusion Lewis but I certainly do think that we all have to be responsible with our rhetoric and use again the example of the Good Friday agreement. Would you urge him to stop making those predictions about civil disorder? Each of us in politics, leading politicians, has to take responsibility for what we ourselves say. My job, as I have been out doing today, is making the case for a very different kind of approach to politics, making the case today for a politics that is about delivery and change in people's lives, change that is difficult to bring about.
27:00It always is in politics, but it's putting in the hard yards. That is what the Prime Minister has been doing. It's what the Home Secretary has been doing in respect of the Channel Crossings and the case that IU is making today, delivering on jobs, bills and borders. Instead, promoting a debate about rhetoric and particular phrases isn't going to solve these issues for anyone. You talk about grievance politics. Aren't people right to feel aggrieved? Of course they are. And of course there is a very serious issue here.
27:29Lewis Goodall:And do you think that the phrase smash the gangs, leading to a belief that there will be a problem that will be solved, has led to that sense of cynicism and grievance among people who think, you just haven't delivered. The gangs are more emboldened than ever. More people are coming over on small boats. Well, I don't agree with that interpretation at all. What's wrong about it? Well, what is wrong, first of all, is the fact that you can see, and you can look on the government website, see the information about the gangs that are being arrested week by week. There was one only in the last month.
28:01But the numbers are going up. Let me just come to that. Because that approach of tackling the vile people smugglers, people are being arrested. There was a gang that was being launched from Botswana that was facilitating illegal migration into the United Kingdom only in recent weeks that was taken down. So that approach of smashing the vile people smugglers is one of the solutions to this issue. But with regard to, let me just come to the point about numbers. Now, first of all, it is also the case, in addition to those who've come across the channel, lives at risk in those small boats, that we have prevented probably around about 12 ,000 people from crossing the channel.
28:42but the work that we are doing with the French is hugely important whether that is the one in one out deal where we can send people back who've come across the channel but also in terms of changing French maritime law so that boats can be intercepted close to the coast.
28:59Lewis Goodall:Jack Straw, the former Home Secretary, Labour Home Secretary has been calling the government to disapply elements of the ECHR the European Convention on Human Rights. Growing number of Labour figures are saying the same. do you support that? So the approach that we're taking here and I support is first of all we are looking at both article we take a slightly different approach is article three and article eight the home secretary is looking at how they are being applied and interpreted by the courts to ensure that that is reflecting what the original intention of the European Convention on Human Rights was but secondly to the point more broadly about the European Convention on human rights.
29:39The solutions to this issue in the channel are both domestic in terms of we've got a piece of legislation now in the House of Commons that has been opposed by reform and the Conservatives to give our law enforcement the same powers to tackle people smugglers as tackle terrorists. But internationally the people smugglers operate over thousands of miles to do that work across the European continent, because legal migration is a continent-wide challenge, leaving the ECHR and joining Belarus. I'm not saying this. I'm not suggesting legal.
30:10Lewis Goodall:I'm suggesting disapplying certain sections of it. That's what Jack Straw is calling for. He said he signed the original thing into law and he is saying it's being abused. And our answer to that is on Article 3 and Article 8, now the Home Secretary is reviewing their application in cases. Could you imagine a world where you did choose to disapply certain sections? It's possible. It's on the table. If the Home Secretary comes back and finds that actually Jack Straw, in her view, is right, that our judges are paying too much attention to the role of the ECHR and the European Court in Strasbourg, could you imagine a world where we disapplied certain sections?
30:49No, it's a matter, in my view, of interpretation rather than disapplication. And that's precisely what this view is looking at.
30:56Lewis Goodall:But Straw is telling you to pass an Act of Parliament to basically instruct judges to no longer pay attention to what the ECHR is saying in these cases. Could you imagine a world where the government did that? No, I think we, what I imagine is the, not actually imagining, but actually the reality of where we are at the moment, which is about interpretation. And that is precisely what we're doing moving forward. And just to be clear about this, we are doing that on both Article 3 and Article 8, looking at the kind of issues that Jack Straw and others are raising about how the ECHR is being applied.
31:28Do you think he's right?
31:28Lewis Goodall:do you think we have paid too much attention or the British judges have given too much weight to the ECHR in its judgments on these matters? Well look we are concerned about as I've said about interpretation that's why we've ordered the review but there is a broader point here about the ECHR again Farage trying to say that if you left the ECHR this is going to somehow solve the problem it will make it worse because we will not have that authority to get the international deals and agreements we need and the cooperation we need across Europe to solve this issue. Is it a problem, do you think? I mean, just thinking about that battle with Farage, which is obviously going to be joined in the next months and years.
32:07Lewis Goodall:On an issue like this, it reminds me a lot of what happened with the Brexit campaign. I mean, Nick, what you're saying is, is all right. I mean, these are national and international issues that have to be resolved. And actually leaving the ECHR, it's a simple thing to say. In many of these things, it will make it worse. But it's a hard thing to explain, isn't it? It's a hard thing for government ministers to come into studios like this and explain exactly why. Whereas Farage can just sit there and go, it's very simple, it's very straightforward, we leave, it makes the problem go away. How do you take that argument on in a way that's simple and easy to understand?
32:39Delivery, Lewis, is the answer to that question, because what is happening with Nigel Farage is the luxury of opposition. It's the luxury of now having to take responsibility for anything. But to that point of course it's difficult and we're not pretending with the public that there is an easy answer to this question. You did when you said smash the gangs. But yes and we will continue to do that as one of the absolutely critical things to find a solution to this issue. But whether it is the one in one out deal with France legislation that is currently going through the House of Commons give law enforcement additional powers, we'll continue to do those hard yards.
33:15Lewis Goodall:Nick can you understand look we've asked you a kind of number of questions about what Jack Straw said and could you imagine in disapplying certain sections and do you think he's right and you haven't really given us now i mean you've talked around the issues in a very skilled politician way but i think an awful lot of people listening to this will think i want answers i want to hear something that's concrete that is going to happen that is going to make a difference to the large numbers of people who are coming over on small boats and the problems of you know immigration hostels and hotels and what's going to happen and it seems that you don't have an answer well there are two answers with respect john the first is in relation to the hotels we've said that they will all be closed by the end of the parliament and the electorate can judge us on that not what we've said but what we've done at that stage and secondly in terms of making a difference to this issue of boats in the english channel we will be judged in the end not what i have said uh in your studio here today not what politicians have said we will be judged on what we've done okay and that one year in one year in what verdict would you give it uh progress but no how would you measure progress in the terms of the numbers having increased well i'll give you a few examples you look for example at asylum decision making we've had a 99 increase in asylum decision making the cost of people in hotels which was at around about nine million pounds a day under this policy do you think you're winning on this policy.
34:43Whether or not we are judged on this policy in a positive way will be for the electorate to do at the next general election. They will judge us rightly, not on words, they will judge us on action.
34:55Lewis Goodall:Farage said yesterday that this is an invasion, an invasion on small boats. Do you think it's an invasion? No, and I don't, and again, let's go back to the earlier discussion we had, Lewis, around rhetoric. Rhetoric and using particular language for headlines is not going to solve this issue. Number 10 refused to condemn that yesterday. They refused to demur from the idea that it's an invasion. Well look, the point here is this. You can use that word, you can use other words to describe it. My point is this, and I was saying that in the speech today, is that it isn't about particular rhetoric, it isn't about particular descriptions, it is about action.
35:32It is about making a real difference. And I'm not suggesting to go back to John's line of questioning. There isn't a silver bullet, there isn't an easy answer. that it will take this hard yards of work over time to do it.
35:42Lewis Goodall:Could you consider something that a lot of, again, we've talked about Jack Straw, a lot of Labour figures from that vintage, that period, think that you should introduce ID cards. Do you think that would be a good idea? Well, already, digital ID already exists in terms of so many things. The French say that our loose Labour market is one of the pull factors that brings people over, and they say that perhaps having an ID card system might improve things. A lot of Labour figures, of course, Tony Blair, who has basically said the same thing about it for 30 years, you know, continues to think it would be a good idea.
36:11Lewis Goodall:Do you think it would be a good idea? Well, look, in terms of ID, I think you've just highlighted certainly one of the issues that is a poll factor, and that is the enforcement of the law in, frankly, what is the economy that is hidden from all of us. And go for it. You know what? Farage, in your position, would go for this. Irrespective of the... I'm just really interested in a nexus between the politics and the policy right, because Farage, in your position, Nick, would go for ID cards. Whether he thought it would work or not, You know why? Because it's politics that you can do, i.e. ID cards, and he can't.
36:43Lewis Goodall:So you should just go for it, because it puts him in a difficult position, because his libertarian background means he won't embrace it. You can say, there you go, you're soft on these criminal gangs. So why not do it? Well, just the point I wanted to make on that, because at the moment, when somebody is working here in the UK, employers should now be asking for identification. I think enforcement in the labour market, you're absolutely right, that is an issue and that is something that we are cracking down. I mean you're actually engaging on a more rarefied level in a sense than I am. I'm just talking about the politics here.
37:15Lewis Goodall:Okay maybe in policy terms maybe the outcome would be relatively marginal but it would be great politics. Don't you need to sharpen up your political operation if you're dealing with someone who is as politically sharp-toothed as Farage is? Well you've certainly got to take Nigel Farage on politically. That's precisely what I've been doing today. But the point I'm making about ID and digital ID is very important by the way. The point about ID is crucial to working in the United Kingdom and whatever political debate we had going forward, that is the case today that people should be producing ID to be able to work in the United Kingdom and we need to enforce that.
37:51Lewis Goodall:So broadly speaking, yes or no, are you in favour of ID cards? I'm certainly in favour of identification having to be produced to work here in the United Kingdom and by the way we're already developing digital ID. But the idea of ID cards, yes or no? Look, I don't have an ideological issue with having to produce identification. And I think that is something that we need to be and are enforcing today. Just a couple of other things. I don't know if you saw today, but long-term UK borrowing costs near their highest level this century today. Guilt prices for the UK, cost of government borrowing. Is that something we should be worried about?
38:26Well, this is something that one of the challenges we faced when we came into government. We had debt that was at a quite unprecedented level level when we entered government it is one of the challenges that rachel reeves as chancellor and we as the government face in terms of managing the economy the enormous debt level that we inherited but that is one of the reasons why we've been so firm about stabilizing the economy and yes taking difficult decisions in this the market responding to it well they don't they don't think you're
38:57Lewis Goodall:taking difficult decisions there's all the talk and worry about a potential debt crisis for the UK. Do you think that there is a possibility of a debt crisis for the UK? No, I don't. And I've seen some of the comparisons with the 1970s. It's a period I know well from my time as a historian. I don't see that comparison at all. But certainly there's been confidence in the government's economic management for several reductions in interest rates, which have been hugely important. But also the importance... That's not really a confidence in the economy, Nick. That's actually a sign of a lack of confidence in the economy, of growth slowing down.
39:28Lewis Goodall:That's not the Bank of England saying that they've got confidence in the economy. No, but it does mean there are benefits for people with mortgages up and down the country. And it also allows us, having made tough decisions to fix the foundations... You slammed Liz Truss for crashing the economy when UK borrowing climbed rapidly. And OK, the ascent has been slower, but UK borrowing costs are now higher than they were then. So if the markets were expressing a view in Liz Truss's ability to manage the economy aren't they doing exactly the same thing to you now you you can't compare the last 13 14 months to what happened in september 2022 uh september 20 i mean i remember september 22 very very well and watching it with horror from the opposition benches as it entirely unraveled in a very chaotic i'm just saying it's clear that the markets are expressing more and more concern about the uk's ability to pay for its long-term debt that is just by definition the case because the price of UK debt is going up and up and up.
40:27And the debt level we inherit is unquestionably a challenge. And people, though, should be reassured that is why this government will not take the risks that were taken. It was unfunded tax cuts in September 2022. It's why Rachel Reeves has the ironclad fiscal rules, making sure that on day-to-day spending, we are not borrowing to do it. And that's why she's taken some very difficult decisions to ensure that stability over the last 13, 14 months.
40:51Lewis Goodall:And just going back to the EU speech on the EU made today and UK-EU relations, because I think it is really interesting. Is the language that you're using now, is that representative of a kind of new confidence that this government has got about the EU and taking the fight to Farage on Brexit and on about the new model you're talking about? Are you, I mean, Labour basically shied away from this for years, from even talking about EU-UK relations. You're not. Why not? Because we have, in the last few months, secured three really important trade deals. One with India. I mean, Boris Johnson promised an India FDA by Diwali.
41:28He didn't say which Diwali, to be fair. But nonetheless, we have managed to secure that. The economic deal with the United States, but also this really important new trading arrangement with the European Union. This is evidence of delivery in action. And yes, I am contrasting it with reform and the Conservatives. I am challenging them when they go out and say, we oppose your deal before they even read it. But we can go after Farage.
41:53Lewis Goodall:Farage's great ability is that he can lob political grenades into the political establishment because you all have a record and he does. He does have a record. Brexit's his record. Would you be willing to go after him on Brexit and what Brexit has done to the economy and to the country more generally? But, Lewis, precisely what I've been doing in the speech today is pointing out that here in the mid-2020s, not going back to 2016, not going back to the debates at that time, which, by the way, you talked about previous silence on Brexit. I lived that Parliament very, very closely, I can tell you.
42:30No wish to go back to that period. But do I want a debate today about what our future relationship with the EU should be? To take this, I call it the ruthlessly pragmatic approach to our national interest, not rewinding, but actually making it work for the country. I absolutely relish having that argument.
42:46Lewis Goodall:And just the final one. The French government could collapse. Your returns agreement could also collapse with it. How worried are you about that? Look, in the last 24 hours, take, for example, the arrangement on changing maritime law. The Home Office has been in contact with the French government. We've received reassurances that is going to go ahead. So I'm very confident that it will continue to go ahead. And not as you wouldn't expect me to, John, going to comment on the internal policy of another country. But the answer to your question is we've had reassurances going ahead. But you're trying to say, look at the progress.
43:18Lewis Goodall:And if the French government collapses, that could set it back. we've received specific reassurances about that today that operationally that is what is going to happen. Today's reassurances might not be valid in a week's time. And that is what I fully expect to happen both in terms of the boats in shallow waters but also in our returns pilot as well where I expect within weeks deportations to begin. Nick Thomas-Simmons, thank you very much indeed. Thanks Nick.
43:56Lewis Goodall:I think that interview was interesting. Not so much for what Nick Thomas Simmons said, although of course that was interesting, but how he said it. And for me, I think it really sums up the political problems that Starmer's government has got, which is that it is dominated by people who are, I think, well-meaning, I don't mean that in a patronising way, I mean, they're doing their best, they think they're doing their best, They engage with issues seriously. They're earnest, almost to the point of being technocratic. And yet for all of that, what to me feels like an almost incomprehensible lack of interest in the raw politics.
44:36Lewis Goodall:And time and time again there, you know, I was almost encouraging him to take a slightly more stupid answer. And I know that sounds sort of ridiculous in a way, but sometimes politics is about simplicity. and I can think of area after area where the government could be more politically aggressive, engaging in policies sometimes like ID cards that actually I think what Nick Thomas-Simmons says is right. I don't think it would make a huge difference in terms of the outcomes, but I think it could make quite a big difference in terms of the politics because you would be taking the fight to Farage on an issue where he is uncomfortable and one of the few issues where the public agree with you it would make a difference on immigration and where the government could actually outflank Farage on something.
45:17Lewis Goodall:And yet they seem so curiously unwilling to do it. I thought that. And I also thought the sort of slightly, the slight inadequacy of the messaging that they've got. This isn't passing muster. This isn't convincing anyone to say, well, look at the progress we've made. Really? Is this a sort of issue where you're really cracking it at the moment? I think that and on so many fronts, I think there is a real frustration among the British public. And whether the Labour government gets it and just doesn't want to admit that it doesn't know what to do or whether it hasn't quite got the sense of anger.
45:53Lewis Goodall:I don't know which it is. But at the moment, I would just say that, you know, we asked a lot of questions that some, what do you think this might work? Or would this should this be something that should be looked at? There was a kind of real nervousness about committing to anything or saying anything other than we're dealing with it. We're making progress. This is really complicated. And I just don't think that kind of, you know, with Farage on the rampage at the moment, I just don't think that that passes muster. When I think of Starmer's government at the moment, I think of someone engaged in a crouch position.
46:23Lewis Goodall:Yeah. Just worried and hoping it'll all go away. And that's a bit unfair because, like I said, they are actually doing a lot of the hard yards in terms of work. And I admire the belief in a way. And I wish I could subscribe to it that the hard work would realise something politically. that the hard work and actually just doing the kind of boring day-to-day bit of government will get you some political credit at the end of it. I'm just not sure in the political environment of 2025 whether that's true or not anymore. And what I think that they could do with it just generally is be more gutsy, more ballsy about the politics itself.
46:57Lewis Goodall:So, for example, that last bit there with Farrakh, they could go after him on Brexit. When you're at 20 points in the polls, you know, at this point, what have you got to lose, actually? I mean, like, you know, OK, you've got time, so whatever. But you've got time to actually experiment with stuff. And Farage does have a record to defend. It is Brexit. It is something that actually is generally really unpopular in the country at large, even in Red Wall constituencies. And you could easily imagine a narrative, or I could imagine threading a narrative, which is not to say we're going to go back and re-litigate Brexit.
47:24Lewis Goodall:Obviously, we're not going to unpick it or whatever. But you can pin its failures to him. and the sort of unwillingness to do that and for Nick Thomas to say no but we're not going to reopen that we're not going to talk about that but we are going to talk about the future UK EU relationship and again it's very optimistic it's very optimistic to be honest that that level of nuance gets you very far in today's media environment I wish it did, I wish it did but it doesn't Well, on the US edition of the News Agents we'll be looking at Donald Trump and how he is almost omnipotent in his ability to do whatever he wants taking over every institution and trampling on anyone who gets in his way.
48:02Lewis Goodall:That's on News Agents USA. We will be back tomorrow. We'll see you then. And that's before he's even got to Nook. Exactly. But he's on his way. He's on his way. Look out, Nook. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. This is a Global Player original podcast.
From the publisher
It's a story that reads like it's jumped out of a thriller novel. Denmark has today summoned America's top diplomat in the country, after reports emerged that figures connected to the Trump administration had infiltrated Greenland to conduct “covert influence operations”.
Denmark's national broadcaster has today come out with a jaw-dropping story alleging that three US citizens are suspected of recruiting Greenlanders for a US-sponsored “separatist” movement. Are they rogue operatives - or are they working on behalf of the US State? Jon and Lewis speak to the journalist who broke the story,
Later, Labour are on the attack over Nigel Farage's mass deportation plan. The minister in charge of UK-EU relations, Nick Thomas-Symonds, has today been slamming Reform and the Tories for their aversion to closer ties with Europe - as well as branding Farage's migration proposals unrealistic and unworkable. He came in to the News Agents studio.
Visit our new website for more analysis and interviews from the team: https://www.thenewsagents.co.uk/
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/