Is ICE acting like America's 'Gestapo'?

0:01Jon Sopel:This is a Global Player original podcast. We started yesterday's podcast with the terrifying sound of gunfire and anger on the streets of Tehran. This is the sound last night of Minneapolis. Get the fuck on the car. We're just fucking arrested. I'm not on the car. Get the fuck on the car. Now that's fucking assault. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Please, man! Get off my police door after Zabel so I can go to the locker up there! That's why I didn't move! Oh no! This guy right here, they let him out of the vehicle. They tortured him. This guy right here, yeah. You okay, man? No, I'm not okay. Bro, what's that?

0:59Jon Sopel:Shit's crazy. My man's bleeding. Bleeding. They slammed me on the f***ing ground. I just can't believe it. Scared. It's frightening. It's terrorizing. We were just standing here. We were just standing here talking. I mean, we were just standing here peacefully protesting. Why are you so mad at immigrants? What did they do to you? America has a long history of brutal police violence, but for many Americans, this is something darker, almost a personal militia for the president, acting without restraint, without law. What will, what can ICE do next? Welcome to The News Agents.

1:49Jon Sopel:The News Agents. It's John. It's Lewis. and obviously it's now a week or so on from the killing of Rennie Goode in Minnesota, which was the ignition really, I suppose, for this latest kind of bout of both protests, but also police violence, particularly in Minneapolis. But what has been going on with ICE has a longer pedigree, as we discussed last week. In particular, even over the last week, social media has been flooded, flooded with unbelievable, appalling videos of violence being apparently reportedly perpetrated by ICE against migrants and even US citizens alike. In terms of some of the allegations that have been made, there is a combination of tactics.

2:35Jon Sopel:In Minneapolis alone, which peculiarly has become the kind of centre of this, ICE has been accused of warrantless detentions, agents operating in unmarked vehicles, concealing their identity, using force against people later confirmed to be US citizens, with secrecy, without any visible legal protest, targeting minorities, but as I say, not just minorities as well. Secretive force, minority targeting, with very little apparent legal restraint. Indeed, so little legal restraint that the federal government itself from the White House down has been telling ICE, which is increasingly to many Americans feeling almost like the president or the federal government's almost personal militia force.

3:23Jon Sopel:They've basically said in one form or another, they can do what they want. See, Donald Trump promised in the presidential election that he was going to get rid of the gang leaders and the drug cartels and the people who were operating illegally in the country. And I think there was widespread support for that. But what has happened in between is that it's just got widespread. People are being stopped on the street, not because they are under suspicion of being illegal immigrants. they're being held under suspicion of being brown or black because let's face it if you're brown or black you might be an illegal immigrant and so people who have lived their whole lives in America who may be third generation Hispanic or third generation Somali are being stopped and told you've got to prove to me that you are an American citizen and it is random.

4:20Jon Sopel:It is brutal. It is visceral. Some of the stories that you're reading, you cannot believe that this is happening on American streets. I mean, there was the whole argument over whether Rene Good, who you talked about there, Lewis, as having been killed when an ice officer fired three bullets into her head, whether she was using her car as a weapon. We're hearing ice officers forcing hard stops, crashing into vehicles. Because there might be someone Hispanic or Somali behind the wheel of the other car. And as you say, social media is just awash with this seeming war being perpetrated and led from Washington on the people of Minneapolis.

4:59Jon Sopel:But also it's happening in New Orleans. It's happening in Illinois. This is spreading. And Donald Trump wants ICE officers to be fanning out across the country. There is an extraordinary, I mean, even in the last 24 hours, is an extraordinary video of a disabled woman being dragged from her car in Minneapolis. I am autistic and I have a brain injury. Put me down. I was just trying to get to the doctor and I was autistic. It takes me a second to understand. Step back! Step back! Brown woman dragged from her car by ICE officers, multiple masked agents wearing sunglasses, flat jackets, arguing with the woman as she tries to drive away from this encounter two of the men then reaching through the driver's side window before one of them managed to force it open drag the woman to the floor bystanders yelling at them to stop with one asking where is your humanity this is a disabled woman right i mean this is happening sort of again and again and again on each and any occasion law enforcement of course can and indeed sometimes they will be right to say perhaps they've identified someone entirely credibly and entirely rightly maybe sometimes of course people do resist law enforcement and there are split seconds decisions that have to be made and it's not easy but what we are seeing here is a pattern of behavior apparently potentially as i say even lawless behavior acting without restraint and with violence apparently or the use of aggression at the very least as a first resort and as i say what is particularly unusual about this situation and i think what is making this situation so feral almost on the streets of Minneapolis but also elsewhere is that typically in modern American history although there is a long history of police violence and brutality in America and they do policing in a very different way than we do thank goodness but nonetheless authorities state and federal would at least to some level want to be seen to be observing due process proper law and order and indeed urging restraint on all sides where they can now the state government of doing that although they are totally against ICE even being there in the first place.

7:02Jon Sopel:That's a bit weird. But what's even weirder and I think much darker is the federal government, i.e. the Trump administration's response to all of this, where they're basically saying ICE, lads, do what you want. Just listen to this. This is Stephen Miller, the Donald Trump's deputy White House chief of staff. To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to obstruct you is committing a felony. You have immunity to perform your duties and no one, no city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations and duties.

7:45Jon Sopel:And the Department of Justice has made clear that if officials cross that line into obstruction, into criminal conspiracy against the United States or against ICE officers, then they will face justice. so that was Stephen Miller you heard in that montage at the end there a kid in tears about the way he'd been treated and someone saying he's bleeding he's bleeding so he was arrested inside a shop by a number of ice officers and when that video emerged Department of Homeland Security said uh he was arrested for assaulting an ice officer you think oh well that must be pretty serious then you know maybe he kind of but what happened was he was taken outside given a bit of a kicking no charges were ever brought so okay if you've assaulted an ice officer face due process be prosecuted go to court defend yourself or plead guilty plead not guilty whatever but no that didn't happen he was just taken outside given a bit of a kicking on the floor emerges battered and bleeding and no charges are ever brought this is not the way you conduct a federal agency of law and order in the 21st century no it's not and i think again i do think this feels dark and again you know we've talked before that i've sort of tried to use restraint when sort of making talking about you know far-right fascistic all of this sort of stuff but i'm not surprised i am not surprised that many americans i don't think it is too frenzied to start talking about this as a sort of far-right militia, right?

9:20Jon Sopel:Because ultimately, when you have an arm of law enforcement, which increasingly is being treated and certainly talked about by the national government almost as their personal militia, their personal police force, as Miller was saying there, basically without, they're completely protected. They have complete federal immunity. Now, for a start, that is illegal nonsense. How can you give guarantee that for a start if they do something? They may well be prosecuted under state law. I mean, maybe, you know, federally, you can completely imagine that Trump would just pardon them just like he did with the January 6th.

9:53Jon Sopel:But anyway, it's a sort of legal nonsense or part legal nonsense. But in any case, in what sort of well-functioning polity, well-functioning democracy does the executive give carte blanche, carte blanche to its own police force or part of the police force to use whatever tactics they want to do whatever they want, all in the name of fulfilling what the executive, what the government wants them to do. And then it's not just that, because, of course, it is coupled with a rising and rising and rising invective from the top of the government, trumped down against particular communities, in this case, in Minneapolis.

10:36Jon Sopel:They have been setting up Minneapolis as the hell on earth dystopia. We saw that Vance was tweeting that this is what happened. If the Democrats had won the election, every city in America or everywhere in America would be like Minneapolis. They are setting up Minneapolis as the antithesis of what it is to be American and exactly what you don't want in America. And they are doing that in particular because they are targeting, again, with the most grotesque invective and the most grotesque language, targeting a particular community, i.e. Somalians. When Trump talks about Somalians as being garbage and at the same time basically sends his personal militia in without any legal restraint and telling them they can do what they want.

11:17Jon Sopel:What do you think is going to happen? Trump knows exactly what is going to happen. And if I were a Somali in America, a US citizen in Minneapolis right now, I would be terrified. And I am sure that they are. Well, that is exactly what Donald Trump wants you to be. He wants you to be terrified. I said at the very, very top of the podcast, you know, we played out the sounds of the streets of Tehran. This is the sound of Minneapolis. There were also two tweets yesterday or two truths on Truth Social from Donald Trump. One about Iran, where he said, don't worry, help is coming. Keep protesting. And the other one for Minneapolis was saying the day of reckoning is coming.

11:57Jon Sopel:And you kind of thought there was a sort of almost a symmetry of the messaging between the two. this is having a political effect as well and i don't think the white house will like what they're seeing in the 2024 presidential election donald trump did astoundingly well with the hispanic vote the highest ever i think something like 45 percent of hispanic voters supporting donald trump in the election and normally trump assembled so just not trump assembled not just with hispanic Trump assembled the multi-ethnic working class coalition that the Democrats have been dreaming of and thought that was theirs by right for years and decades.

12:38Jon Sopel:And Trump was the one who put it together. Well, here we are in the year of the midterms and Hispanic support for the Republican Party is not only cratering. It has cratered. I wonder why. Exactly. And so you are putting in jeopardy the coalition that you have built up by this heavy handed, idiotic mob in their kind of unmarked cars and their quasi militaristic uniform, looking to the world like a private militia that have been hired and put together that you have got no control over. I think that this is costing Trump and will cost Trump a lot. I'm sure the base, I'm sure it's red meat in certain states in the deep south or wherever where Donald Trump supporters will be loving it.

13:25Jon Sopel:But I'm sure a lot of independent Americans will be just thinking what on earth is going on. Traditional Republican votes. Yeah, as well. I mean, look, and I think a really good sort of crystallization of that shifting politics on that and the idea that, you know, America is noticing. actually came last night when Joe Rogan, fellow podcaster, of course. As influential as us? I wouldn't have thought so. Nonetheless, influential in certain circles in America. You know, big, big moment. You know, everyone talks about 24 rightly as being a sort of podcast presidential election. You know, very big influential figures.

13:55Jon Sopel:Joe Rogan was perhaps the most influential of those. Back Trump, had previously been a Democrat, of course. He had something very interesting to say about this on his show last night. Just listen to what his impression is of what he is seeing in Minneapolis and other cities in America. You don't want militarized people in the streets just roaming around, snatching people up, many of which turn out to actually be U.S. citizens that just don't have their papers on them. Are we really going to be the Gestapo? Where's your papers? Is that what we've come to? And this is what I mean. I mean, you know, the Gestapo.

14:29Jon Sopel:The Gestapo. And this is what, because again, sort of reluctance to sort of resort to this in a way because it almost feels lazy or glib. But it's not. It's not. Because when you have a militarised police force operating in that fashion, in that way, targeting people who the government itself, through its rhetoric and through its invective, is targeting in the most appalling possible terms, that is far right. That is reminiscence of a Gestapo, right? Particularly, and I think you're right, John, in terms of, you know, America, although it has got a profoundly authoritarian streak in some ways, particularly with the way that it does policing, and it feels very comfortable, much more comfortable with that heavy handedness than we do.

15:07Jon Sopel:At the same time, because all countries are, you know, masses of contradictions, it has a profoundly, it is profoundly libertarian at the same time. And the idea, exactly as Rogan is articulating there, the idea of a federal police force, effectively, because that's what it is, acting in that way, you know, turning up on American streets, asking people for their identity papers, that does not sit at all with American political culture or American political history. That is not how Americans operate or that political culture operates. So I am not surprised at all that you're already generating a backlash to it.

15:39Jon Sopel:But as ever, with so much, I feel we talk about this all the time in different guises of Trump. You know, they are an administration, I think, that continues to be punch drunk on their own success. And I think they are at that point and they've been going through a long period of self-radicalisation. And they are egged on by their worst excesses and others who exist in their orbit who embody their worst excesses. And I think increasingly they are failing to see how they are being perceived, not by the left, not by the radical left, not by the Democrats, but actually by your everyday ordinary American who might have liked lots of the things that Trump stood on and stood for.

16:12Jon Sopel:But he didn't stand on this. And, you know, he stood for a strong border, which he has, as we've discussed, given him some credit for. he's had some success but this ain't strong border this is attacking and victimizing your own citizens in their own homes that's a different thing and joe rogan you know is a hugely influential i mean we were facetious about it when we introduced him he's hugely impressive and massively important to the mago crowd who love joe rogan he is the kind of embodiment in so many ways of trump's grip on the media and the sort of narratives that he is expressing that people flood to Joe Rogan.

16:50Jon Sopel:And when Joe Rogan is calling the ICE agents acting like the Gestapo and Donald Trump at the head of that, that is serious for the MAGA movement. Now, in Minnesota and in Illinois, legal action is apparently going to be taken to try and stop the deployment of the ICE officers. It's thought that when it gets to the federal courts, that's probably unlikely to get very far. But again, you know, and I don't know, it almost sounds kind of cute or quaint to talk about this and about the setup of America. You know, states are meant to have the power. A federal government is not meant to be strong jackbooting in and taking over cities and taking over states.

17:32Jon Sopel:That's the whole point of a federalised system in America, that the states elect their governors, they appoint the police forces, you know, everyone stands for election. and in Minnesota and in Chicago and Illinois and New Orleans and all these other places, Trump is saying, I am taking charge of all of this. It is a federal police state and I will do what I like. There's just two other longer term effects, I think, that this potentially has, which I think we should keep an eye on. Actually, there's three. There's one slightly shorter term, which is, look, it feels very likely that this is going to lead to more clashes.

18:05Jon Sopel:This is fire upon fire in every direction. And we have seen the extraordinary breakdown in not just communications and politics, but even just, you know, realities between state officials and national officials that we saw in the wake of the really good shooting with both sides basically accusing the other of something almost like akin to sort of treason in the way that, you know, they're dealing with these things. So that's appalling. The two longer term things I think that is really worrying about all of this. One is it's kind of that it's, you know, there is just such a danger of basically all policing and all legal enforcement in America becoming so politically contested that any sense of that kind of civil order really starts to break down.

18:47Jon Sopel:This is obviously not new. This has been building up for a long time. We saw it in the wake of George Floyd and so on. Policing in America is deeply politicised and has been for a long time. But this feels like it is taking it to another level still, not least because of, as I say, the complete breakdown between state and national. And the other thing is, of course, what ICE might yet be used for in the future. At the moment, it's being used for harassing people, rounding people up, putting people in detention when they shouldn't. All terrible for those individuals. We're in an election year in America.

19:19Jon Sopel:It's the midterms. And there are lots of people who are worried about the midterms and about the probity of the midterms. Not that they'll be cancelled. Trump can't cancel them. He hasn't got the constitutional power to cancel them. But can he make them so disorderly that their legitimacy is highly disputed? You bet he can. You know, because what can he do? He can say, look, we've got really concerned that illegal migrants are voting at the polling stations in the big cities, in Denver, in Los Angeles, in Minneapolis, in New York. You name it. We're very concerned. These people don't have ID. We don't know who they are.

19:50Jon Sopel:We're going to post some ICE officers in polling stations in a particular place, not everywhere. We don't need to do them in Republican places. No, no, of course not. We're going to put them in these democratic strongholds where they weigh the votes and which the Democrats need always to make sure that they're going to take these House districts. And suddenly when you've got a House set of races, which are razor sharp and the Dems only need to take a couple of races, then what do you do? Suddenly you've basically put off loads of people for turning up to vote on those days. They just do not want the hassler being frisked by an ICE officer or told to give your papers because you're black or you're brown or whatever you happen to be.

20:26Jon Sopel:So that is the bare minimum of the trouble and disorder they could create. And I think that is a really worrying portent and something that people I know are thinking about increasingly as we look towards November. I mean, maybe I'm getting, you know, just absolutely further to that. Look, some of what has gone on in the past year where the Trump family has been enriching itself with the presidency. You know, trade deals are being done at the same time as deals are being done for the Trump organisation to develop hotels and leisure complexes in the country where you're negotiating what the terms of trade should be with the US administration to the huge advantage of the Trump family.

21:05Jon Sopel:All of that would get investigated if the Democrats take control of the House. So in some ways, this is an election in the midterms that Donald Trump cannot afford to lose. And if he cannot afford to lose, what is he prepared to do to ensure that he doesn't lose? And that takes you to a pretty dark place in the history of US democracy. Right. When we come back, we're going to be talking actually about a policing matter a little bit closer. It's like the crime agency here today, isn't it? No, we've both got more hair than those two. We'll be talking about a story, as I say, about Westman's police and that match between Aston Villa and Maccabi Tel Aviv.

21:43Jon Sopel:Stay with us.

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22:20Jon Sopel:And murder mystery, a blend of cherry cola and spices. I love a good energy drink, and when I wake up at 2.30 in the morning to get us on the air at 5 a.m., I need something that's going to keep me going. and now I have Liquid Death Sparkling Energy. I can't wait to keep drinking all these amazing flavors. They have an unextreme only 100 milligrams of caffeine, same as a cup of coffee. You can buy Liquid Death Sparkling Energy drink at fine retailers like 7-Eleven or learn more at liquiddeath.com. Breaking news, in-depth analysis and trusted voices all in one place. From award-winning journalists asking the questions that shape your world.

22:57Prime Minister, you talked about doing patriotic things. Welcoming the leader of the opposition, leader of the Conservative Party, Kerry Bates, not back to the studio. The leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Ed Davey. The news that matters from the UK and around the world, and why it matters to you.

23:10Jon Sopel:Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

23:22Jon Sopel:The News Agents. Well, we're going to return now to a story which was a bit of a core celeb in politics towards the end of last year. you'll remember the enormous row, which divided in pretty predictable ways politically, that took place after Maccabee, Tel Aviv fans, a club, I must say, of which I was not aware before this particular imbaronio broke out. Your knowledge of international football is extensive. I would say my knowledge of Israeli football is especially limited, but never mind. Obviously, they were banned by Westminster Police, or their fans were banned by Westminster Police for coming to a game with Aston Villa in Birmingham.

23:56Jon Sopel:They said because they had evidence to suggest that there would potentially be unrest and public disorder because there was a long history of fans of this particular team causing trouble when they travelled around Europe and so on. Indeed, there has been a history of that. nonetheless the chief of West Midlands Police this morning has had to apologise to MPs for giving them incorrect evidence about that decision to ban those fans saying among other things that some of the evidence had been produced by AI so this goes back to Craig Guilford who is the chief of West Midlands Police telling the Home Affairs Select Committee previously that the inclusion of a fictitious match between Maccabee fans and West Ham in police intelligence, quotes, arose as a result of the use of Microsoft co-pilots.

24:48Jon Sopel:The chief constable had previously told MPs that the force did not use AI for any of this and the mistake regarding the West Ham match, which had never taken place, was made by one individual during one Google search. This is just the latest, indeed, of a series of revelations that show that the evidence, the sort of dossier that they had put together to support the idea of the ban has in the particulars either been wrong or at the very least disputed. And what has made it worse for Craig Guilford, the chief constable, is that he has misled MPs. And in our constitution, you can be prosecuted for going before a select committee and not telling the truth.

25:30Jon Sopel:And it seems that he hasn't told the truth. Now, whether it's because he didn't know and people below him hadn't given him the full picture or whether he knew but still dissembled is unclear but certainly the chief constable is in a very vulnerable position now and frankly it's hard to see him survive unless he wishes to be extremely bloody minded because it does look like the evidence on which their judgment was based was largely a tissue of fiction and that they had created a case against why the Maccabee fans from Tel Aviv should not come and should not be allowed to go to Villa Park was just based on next to nothing.

26:14Jon Sopel:And so you've got a position now where the chief constable has repeatedly misled and you've got the home secretary. And by the time you've listened to this, I'm sure Shabana Mahmood will have spoken where she has to give her judgment. Does she have confidence or not in the chief constable? but she can't sack him. And so this could become a real arm wrestle between an obstinate and obdurate chief constable and a home secretary who probably is beginning to tear her hair out over this. I think of you as both obstinate and obdurate. Those are the two adjectives that come to mind when I think of you.

26:49Jon Sopel:Well, obstinate. Obstinate and obdurate. But they're nice words, don't you think? So you think I am a pussycat? When you want to be. Shall we take this outside? Because I think we're doing a podcast now. Oh, yeah, sorry. I was just impressed by your vocabulary. And your personal feelings towards me. I think we should leave to one side. We should say one other thing as well, just to add to the pressure that's on Craig Guilford. It looks like as well, on top of all of this, this is not just political pressure or political criticism. He and the force are going to be criticised in a report by His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, the policing inspectorate, the policing watchdog, where it is reported lay out in uncertain terms that the force made a serious cascade of errors in how it gathered and handled this intelligence, not least their claim that they were told by Dutch police that Maccabee fans were perpetrators of the violence in Amsterdam, which has been the centre of so many of the, basically the absolute core of the case that was put forward.