Is Russia's ban from world sport over? - The Sports Agents

0:01This is a Global Player Original Podcast. The Winter Olympics are just coming to a close and before the Winter Paralympics start, there is already controversy. Yeah, Russian and Belarusian athletes are going to be allowed to represent their countries competing under their own flags. For the first time since 2014, since Russia's state-sponsored doping program and the war in Ukraine, we're going to see and potentially hear the Russian anthem and flag. Ukraine officials are boycotting FIFA president, though, Gianni Infantino, has recently said that he wants to lift football's ban on Russia. So is this the beginning of something?

0:41Could we see Russia compete at the LA Summer Olympics in 2028 or even the World Cup? Welcome to the Sports Agents.

0:57The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Well, we're joined now by The Athletic's Matt Slater, who is out in Italy for the Games. Matt, there are two questions, really, to start with here. Very simply, what has happened and why now? OK, right, so a little bit of history. 2014 Sochi was the last time Russia competed as Russia at either an Olympics or Paralympics. because what happened immediately after that of course is well they they initially annexed Crimea which you know probably broke the Olympic truce on that one but anyway the big issue was in about a year or so later we learned about their state sponsor doping and then more recently because of the invasion of Ukraine so almost like they serve their doping ban right and then immediately we get into the full-scale invasion of Ukraine so you know they've broken olympic and paralympic rules so they are here at these olympics as individual neutral athletes as they were in paris there are about 20 russians and belarusians here now what's changed is the paralympics have almost got a bit more russian friendly than the than the olympics having initially been much more hardline on them no you're not coming to rio at all in september last year they had a general assembly where they basically said that's it let's let them back in they put it to a vote and the national paralympic committees a majority of them said yeah okay they've served their time let's let's let's bring them back now at the time the international federations that run all the sports still had russia band and belarus band so whilst you had the IPC, the overriding body that runs the Paralympics, saying, yeah, yeah, by all means, send a team, send a delegation.

2:55There was no way for Russian para-athletes or Belarusian para-athletes to kind of qualify, to kind of make it, because they weren't allowed to compete in World Cup events. So the last thing that changed, so the September was the big decision. In December, the International Skiing Federation, which runs half the events at the Olympics, half the events at the Paralympics, runs snowboarding as well, cross-country skiing, lost its ban at Cass. So in December, Russian athletes were able to start competing again. At that moment, it became completely inevitable that we were going to have this moment, which we had two days ago, where the IPC confirmed to everyone, yep, like we said in September, they can compete.

3:41They won that case in December, so they've been competing on the world stage. They've started to accrue qualification points. And yeah, they've applied. And we've just said six Russians have made it, four Belarusians have made it. And yes, they will be competing in their colours and under their flag. This obviously has brought a lot of reaction from Ukraine. President Zelensky himself has spoken out saying this is awful. And they are now threatening or have said they will boycott the Paralympic Winter Games? As far as I can tell, as far as anyone can tell, what we're talking about is kind of a boycott by the officials.

4:23Now, does that matter? Is it sort of diplomatic stuff? You know, if the sports minister and the foreign minister don't come, will anyone at home notice? Yeah, it's embarrassing and it's something. I think what's interesting is if other countries do that, because then that is embarrassing, right? if there's a lot of countries not represented officially at the opening or closing ceremony. So I imagine the Baltic states who feel very strongly about this, so Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, the Italians. Now, that could be really interesting because the sports minister and the foreign minister have both immediately gone, well, this is outrageous.

5:03We know what Zelensky said. He called it dirty, unfair. But then I'm wondering who actually voted because their reasoning is that there was a vote allowing them. If all these countries are threatening diplomatic boycotts, who's voted for Russia? How did they get enough numbers? Well, I think this is where we get into, I know this is a, we talk about sport here on this podcast, but how the world feels about this conflict. And this has come up a few times. It's a big issue in Europe. So the European Commissioner for Sport has spoken out about it. Lisa Nandy, our Secretary of State for Sport. People in Europe feel really strongly about this.

5:38Do people in Asia feel that strongly about it? Africa? South America? I think we've seen the direction of travel in the North America. Other parts of the world have viewed this war for the last few years as a European issue. You know, India, China, big places, Africa, have continued to trade with Russia. You know, Russia's an energy partner, certainly in the sport. If we just stick to sports. Well, do you know what, Matt? and I don't mean this in a crass way or to even, you know, ignore what's going on in Ukraine. But actually from a sporting point of view, bearing in mind why they were kicked out 12 years ago to do with the state-sponsored doping.

6:26Now, if I am an athlete, wherever I am in the world, and I am competing against them, what guarantees would I have going into these Paralympics that things have changed and it will be a level playing field? Well, I think that's a really good question. And I wonder why it's not being asked more openly, more loudly. I mean, you certainly hear American voices say it, but then, you know, again, there's always agendas, right? At the moment, America's having a massive row with the World Antisope Agency about their own stuff. Donald Trump led America doesn't really like global institutions. So he doesn't like global institutions that tell America what to do.

7:05So there's a kind of underlying politics to that dispute. But you're right. The Russian anti-doping agency has not been fully compliant for a long time. It's been very hard to sort of get in and out. It's very hard to sort of trust them, particularly when they lied to us so egregiously a decade ago. Sport moves on, though. Sport moves on really quickly. and I guess what we've seen is we have seen now however many games it is the winter summers Paralympics of Russian athletes coming under whatever umbrella it is and there's been three or four they have all been tested they have been tested by their international federation and they've been targeted so they've probably been tested more than anybody else so look I you know would I put my hand in the fire for these guys would I put my hand in the fire for many guys we have doping cases too there's been one in the in-competition period for the winter olympics and it involves an italian and and she's actually been allowed to compete because she got her ban lifted by the national anti-doping agency in italy and she says it's a cross-contamination case involving a nutella gel that she shares with her mum and that's why she has some of her mum's breast cancer medicine in her system brindsey johnson had three um three missed uh whereabouts So I totally took your point, Mark.

8:21You know, what guarantees? But there are no guarantees. I agree with you. There are no guarantees. Widing this out beyond this winter's Paralympics, you know, we're already hearing noises, aren't we, about Russia then re-entering the world sporting stage for other events. The IOC and the Paralympics, the IPC, are very different organisations, and they're not telling you at the moment what their thoughts are. If you were to kind of look two years down the line, do you see Russians competing under their flag at the LA Olympics? Yes. I don't even have to look two years. At the end of this year in autumn, there's the Youth Olympics in Senegal.

9:03I think it's in October. I very strongly believe Russian athletes and Belarusian athletes will be competing there under the Russian Olympic Committee flag, the uniforms, the lot. So I think it happens within six months. now the direction of travel is clear kirstie coventry is the new is the new president she has made it very very evident that she wants to keep sport and politics as separate as possible this age-old debate right oh you know whenever i write about you know sports politics story i always get a few comments in the in the you know down below saying oh you know why are you doing this you know well because sport and politics have been inextricably linked forever you know we're at the olympics if you truly don't want politics here why are any of them in national uniforms at all let's turn it into a school sports day actually even school sports days can be a little bit political you know let's just let's just cheer for breezy johnson let's just cheer for bruce moat let's not cheer for gb why do we have a medal table and that's before i even get into how you host these things who runs these things the sponsors what messaging this the The politics is everywhere.

10:13So that would make it a lot more likely then that Gianni Impantino would get his wish to lift the ban on Russia. Yes. But would he not far off be last in this cycle, bearing in mind they're not going to be in the next World Cup, are they? Because everything is signed, sealed, and delivered for that. And every sporting organisation will probably want to be as far down the line as possible so that others have gone first, I would guess. Yeah. So there's a few things, right? So if we just stick to Olympics and Paralympics, there is this sort of view, and it's a longstanding Olympic view, Paralympic view, that, you know, come on, let's put the athlete first.

10:55It's not their fault where they're from. Everyone deserves their moment. You know, nice, wonderful stuff that I don't think we can disagree with. As ever, there's competing freedoms. So if a Russian is here wearing Russian gear, how does a Ukrainian feel? So we've got to balance that. So there's sensitivities. But broadly speaking, when you're at an Olympic or Paralympic global international event, right, I think there's a clear path to have them here, particularly if you've got the president of the organization saying, I really don't want to do politics unless I really, really have to, unless I really, really, I'm going to bend, I'm going to go as far as I can to keep politics out.

11:30That was in her opening speech at the session in Milan, her first big speech to the Olympic movement two weeks ago. and as we've seen and we haven't mentioned it yet the whole Vladimir Hereskiewicz helmet debacle right where yes you can express yourself but just not on the field of play just not on the field of play we're having no expression there whatsoever so I think you can see a kind of you might not agree with it but there's a consistency with this view now to go to the football point there's always been a little bit of misunderstanding I think as to why Russia's out in the cold and it's really simple because they've got to play European teams that's how you that's how you make a World Cup It's how you go to European Championships.

12:09And it's really simple. European teams don't want to play them. It's a fait accompli. What group do you put Russia in at the moment? Yeah. So on that, and you're saying, you know, and Mark made the point, it's the furthest event down the line. In the middle of that, we have a European Championships, right? Yeah. And UEFA then will have its own take on that. It will. And Alexander Seferin, a couple years ago, tried to sort of do a kind of Paralympic style move, right? Come on, you know, let's not punish Russian individuals. And he tried to get Russian youth teams. So I think he was talking about under-16s back into European competition.

12:50And he failed, you know? He tried to sort of sneak it past everyone while no one was looking. And all the big countries, Germany, England, et cetera, all the people that feel incredibly strongly about it, Poland, Baltic states, the ones who were threatened, actually threatened by Russia, no. So that didn't work. He said to drop it. And I don't think it's really moved on. We had a UEFA Congress about a week or so ago. I was only following it vaguely because I had to sort of concentrate on curling and skeleton and et cetera, et cetera. I think Seferin has sort of basically admitted that Russia cannot play international football, not, you know, through Europe, through UEFA, into FIFA, until the war's over.

13:30So would they, and I wouldn't rule anything out in sport politics, would they look to move Russia into a different confederation if they wanted them to qualify for a World Cup? Because look, we have seen countries move confederations for differing reasons, you know. Australia are in Asia, aren't they, I think? Israel is the obvious one. plays in Europe. Yeah, so would that be on the table? Well, it's funny, Mark, because that was a story that was doing the rounds about 18 months ago. I think it was the FIFA Congress in Rwanda. I'm always first with the big stories, Matt. Always there. You've got to read my stuff, Mark.

14:19And there was, God knows where it came from. I think it came from Russia. Oh, you know, we've always been a little bit Asian, haven't we? You know, the largest country in the world. Could we compete in the AFC? the Asian Football Confederation. And I think it was really sort of floated just to sort of tell you, AFA, we've got options. Now, actually, as it happens, nothing happened. Nothing happened. And again, we get into kind of, this is what I quite like about football politics. If you were AFC, would you want another potentially good team joining your confederation? So suddenly, let's just say you're the eighth, typically the eighth or ninth best team in Asia.

14:58Are you having another one that's taken your world cup spot so this is so so yes yes in theory and russia has definitely floated that one it didn't it didn't nothing nothing happened do you know it's going back to the paralympics there will be injured ukrainian soldiers competing under the ukraine flag there and to see them lining up next to people from the country that have committed those transgressions I know you're saying we look at it through European eyes, but you can't help, whether you're from Brazil, South Africa or Italy, not feel that there's something wrong with that. I'm glad. Look, I've been treating some of this a little bit lightly.

15:41I think next month, when it starts, I think it starts on March 5th or March 6th, I can't remember. There's going to be some moments. There's going to be some Heroskiewicz moments. Some of the athletes that Heroskiewicz had on his helmet were Paralympic athletes. He talks about them. I mean, you know, I did an interview with him. He was naming some of them. This guy was from the Invictus Games. This guy, you know, these are Ukrainian soldiers. These were the victims of the war. And we've already seen some of the names being suggested by the Russian authorities as to who will take their slots, their qualified slots.

16:10And some of them are ex-soldiers. Some of them have, you know, publicly supported the war. so yeah we are going to have heartfelt moments tense moments where ukrainians and russians are going to be very close to each other saying competing non-sporting things or wanting to anyway we're going to have a lot of these hereskavich type moments at the paralympics it's inevitable you go back to the last time the summer olympics was in la and russia didn't compete there either right and so you know you can't as you say at the very beginning Matt you know you can't take politics out of sport it has been forever thus this this situation that that sport whether you see sport as the porn or you see sport as the playground for you know these political issues to play out and and for the world kind of to decide what is good and what is bad that's kind of what it comes down to isn't it which side is is good and which side is evil and and it's those judgment calls you know that that i think exercise people so intently when they just want to enjoy great sport well i can completely agree look so 80 and 84 with the last big boycotts we we haven't really had boycotts since but i think because there is this there is a view that we can we can we keep these things separate and they are supposed to be celebrations of humanity and you do get these moments where it was quite a nice story yes i don't know if you saw it a day or so ago where it turns out that the volunteer who led the Ukrainian delegation out during the Milan opening ceremony here, unbeknownst to anyone, she's lived in Milan for 14 years, she doesn't agree with the war at all, she basically asked to lead the Ukrainians out.

17:55She's Russian. She said, I want to do it. I want to show as an expression of my solidarity, humanity, I'm going to lead these guys out so she does it she has glasses on she's wearing a hood no one could really see it only came out but she told her instagram followers i think and then word got out and she did an interview on monday but the ukrainians knew and they spoke to her in russian and she said look it was nice it was a nice moment i it was the it was the least i could do just to say you know i i've i've asked to carry your sign out i don't agree with the war good luck so we might get some moments like that at the Paralympics.

18:31I suspect we won't. I'll be honest. And again, something that was said to me a few times at the height of the Heroskiewicz rail last week. We have a lot of sympathy. Again, go back to that European point. Of course, we have a lot of sympathy for this guy. 24 athletes on his helmet. He's talking about 400 or 500 athletes. You look at his ex profile, his pinned tweet is him standing next to a bomb crater in a stadium. This is a guy who's personally delivered generators and food. He's a hero back in Ukraine, frankly. And in fact, he's just been made officially a hero, but even prior to what he did last week with his helmet.

19:06So it's everything to him. It's everything. And you have enormous sympathy. But this is where I have a tie. I do have sympathy for the Olympic position as well. We, us three, I think, agree with Heroskavits' message. But how about if it was, choose your own conflict yeah maybe a conflict that we're involved in maybe something that we us brits have done in the past how do we feel about it then and how do we feel about it if it's if it's every other medal ceremony if it's every if it's every other event where there's something kicking off so i i i'm sorry to sit on the fence here i am i'm sitting on a fence i i saw that one both ways and it is really hard matt thank you very much for that this afternoon you you have an absolutely fascinating job but i do fear that if i try to do your job i'd end up just smashing my head against a brick wall every night mark sometimes i do get to just go to the biathlon and just like hang around in the beer tent yeah and i'm going to watch the curling and that's quite funny, not fun and funny.

20:18So it's not all, you know, politics. But I think, you know, I think it is really interesting and, you know, it is a part of sport that I think we should understand and embrace more and not, you know, anybody who tells me, you know, stick to sport, it's, you know, keep the politics out. I just think it's a naivety. And, you know, you can do both, can't you? You know, you can enjoy the sport. I mean, look, the Football World Cup, I think, this summer is going to be a case in point where we won't be able to avoid politics. We won't. The Sports Agents.

20:56The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Plenty of variety then on The Sports Agents this week. Let's start though with our double winter Olympic gold medalist, Matt Weston, who gave us all sorts of insight into the technique required to win gold but then also uh talked about uh penis injections and condoms egged on by gabby sorry i need to compose myself a little bit now i think the i think the reason why is a lot of the if you look at the winter sports especially compared to the summer olympics we do some pretty extreme stuff like most of the sports you have to wear a helmet for We go ridiculous miles an hour on snow and ice and it's like, it's pretty crazy.

21:44So, and that can be quite like, it gets your adrenaline up. It gets like you nervous. It like, you have to have that relief. So I think having, having it afterwards, having after like a, an event or something like that, you have to go out and enjoy yourself and have some fun. Beautifully answered. Yeah. Yeah. I had to dodge that one, I think. Yeah. That was scarier than going head first down the track, to be honest.

22:13And we spoke to former England striker Emil Heskey on what turned out to be the day that the Vinnie Jr. story erupted in the evening. And actually talking to him about abuse in football, but not specifically about racial abuse. This was a general abuse of players towards officials, maybe parents on the sidelines as well. Having football matches up and down the country, grassroots football matches, 9s, 10s being cancelled because of what parents are doing, which is crazy. I can vividly remember being at my son's game of football at least a decade ago. And the parents on both sides and coaches giving the referee a whole load of stick.

22:55And the referee would have been 16, maybe 15, 16, doing his best and stuff. And loads of people having a go at him. And at the end of the game, unbeknownst to a lot of the parents, but I'd clocked this earlier, the referee's dad had been watching him in the same way that you would watch your own kid play football he'd come to watch his son referee and it was absolutely honestly it was heartbreaking at that moment it was heartbreaking so that's it for another week on the Sports Agents if you've been listening to this on the News Agents feed just search for the Sports Agents to listen to those episodes in full on YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your pods and remember to hit subscribe or follow Yeah, keep getting in touch as well.

23:40The Sports Agents at Global.com on social media or via the link in the show notes. We've got new episodes for you every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. Thanks for listening.