In short
Analysis of Andy Burnham’s campaign messaging and whether it’s more than “vibes,” focusing on “Manchesterism” (devolution + business-friendly socialism) and the power struggle between Westminster and a mayor-led power base. The episode also discusses Labour’s internal leadership contest polling and the upcoming Makerfield by-election as Burnham’s key test.
Guests
Neil Lawson, on the Council of Mainstream Labour (described as pro-Burnham from within/outside Labour). He says he helped shape the concept of Burnham’s Makerfield video and has worked with/seen Burnham’s street-level reactions in Manchester.
Key claims
Burnham’s authenticity and “comfortable in his own skin” presentation are central to his appeal. His theory of power is that Westminster hoards power, leaving northern communities behind for 40 years. “Manchesterism” links democratic reform with economic reform via devolution and long-term investment consensus. Labour MPs view Starmer as the instability driver, not Burnham.
Notable examples
Burnham’s Makerfield video (Oasis soundtrack; school, miners/Hillsborough/Covid fights; “Westminster doesn’t work”); polling figures for Labour members (Burnham 47%, Starmer 31%); Lawson’s welfare critique of technocratic “levers” politics; mention of Greater Manchester successes and periphery areas like Makerfield/Wigan.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOAnalyzing Burnham's Campaign Video
0:04 to 0:20
Exploring the effectiveness of Andy Burnham's campaign communication.
“Their unified platform includes payroll, talent management, compliance software, and a lot more, connecting you to the people, data, and expertise you need to drive long-term business results.”
Analyzing Burnham's Campaign Video
2:17 to 2:49
Exploring the effectiveness of Andy Burnham's campaign communication.
“And that video, the kicking off Andy Burnham's campaign in Makerfield, again, not officially the Makerfield candidate yet, so we'll wait and see if he's adopted.”
Burnham's Political Identity
2:49 to 6:06
Discussion on Andy Burnham's position as an outsider versus insider in politics.
“I was born in Liverpool but my journey began in this area.”
The Concept of Manchesterism
6:06 to 11:12
Examining the implications of Manchesterism in relation to Burnham's policies.
“That's very common in American politics.”
Challenges of Devolution and Inequality
11:12 to 14:01
Exploring the complexities of devolution and its impact on inequality in politics.
“I think that as well, I mean, the thing about this idea of of of Manchesterism or and you can boil that down, right, basically to, you know, more devolution.”
Burnham's Record and Manchester's Inequality
14:01 to 16:44
Discussion on Andy Burnham's political record and the inequality in Greater Manchester.
“Central Manchester is a great success story.”
Polling Insights and Leadership Contest
16:44 to 18:08
Analysis of current polling data and its implications for leadership contests.
“Well, yeah, I mean, they say they're going to throw everything at it.”
Political Instability and Economic Challenges
18:08 to 21:03
Exploration of the cycle of political instability and economic issues in the UK.
“So, you know, we're in this remarkable position where, you know, Keir Starmer is still the prime minister.”
Starmer's Leadership and Burnham's Appeal
21:03 to 24:48
Comparison of Keir Starmer's leadership style and Andy Burnham's communication skills.
“I mean, I'll just contrast what we saw with Burnham.”
Communication Styles in Modern Politics
24:48 to 28:00
Discussion on the importance of communication skills in contemporary political success.
“But I think there's still a lot of caution about whether that's going to be the right thing to do and a brave thing that works as opposed to something that is trying to reflect who he is.”
Show all 18 chapters
Exploring Burnham's Charisma and Political Presence
28:00 to 31:54
Discuss the charisma of Andy Burnham compared to other political figures and recount a recent encounter.
“Maybe charisma is the wrong word you're right, presence, they're very online.”
Exploring Burnham's Charisma and Political Presence
31:59 to 32:09
Discuss the charisma of Andy Burnham compared to other political figures and recount a recent encounter.
Neil Lawson on Burnham's Political Strategy
32:09 to 42:00
Neil Lawson discusses Andy Burnham's appeal, political strategy, and the concept of business-friendly socialism.
“Now, Neil is on the Council of Mainstream Labour, which is widely seen.”
Andy Burnham's Vision for Change
42:00 to 46:00
Discuss the potential immediate and long-term changes Andy Burnham could advocate for in the UK.
“He's got a unique, it's kind of, it's electoral gold dust, the fact that he can appeal to, you know, five, six, seven percent of reform voters, big chunks of Tories and huge percentages of Liberal Democrats and Greens.”
The Importance of the Upcoming By-Election
46:00 to 47:00
Examine the significance of the by-election and Burnham's role in it for the Labour Party's future.
The Importance of the Upcoming By-Election
47:20 to 47:31
Examine the significance of the by-election and Burnham's role in it for the Labour Party's future.
“role, talent management, compliance software, and a lot more, connecting you to the people, data, and expertise you need to drive long-term business results.”
The Importance of the Upcoming By-Election
47:36 to 47:46
Examine the significance of the by-election and Burnham's role in it for the Labour Party's future.
Critique of Modern Political Performance
47:46 to 50:28
Analyze the characteristics and challenges of modern politicians, focusing on their public personas.
“Well, the honourable member says, why did I...”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Andy Burnham:Do you ever feel like you're drinking from a firehouse? PayCore's intelligent HR solution empowers leaders to turn down the pressure. Their unified platform includes payroll, talent management, compliance software, and a lot more, connecting you to the people, data, and expertise you need to drive long-term business results. Visit paycore.com slash leaders and go from workflow to workflow. That's paycore.com slash leaders.
0:31This is a Global Player original podcast. I was born in Liverpool, but my journey began in this area.
0:39Andy Burnham:This is a man now trying very hard to fight as an insurgent, as a Mancunian taking on Westminster and saying, they don't understand you, I do. Let's remember what's happening to the Labour Party. It's an existential crisis. It's Burnham or Bust. And where are we? Where are we less than two years later? You're in a different party. We're here. We're here. Where are we? We're here. You used to be there. One of the things that made me most proud recently is someone saying on a doorstep, Andy's all right. He's for us. I am for us. All of us.
1:24Andy Burnham:Oasis playing out Andy Burnham there on his own campaign video. A campaign video that is trying simultaneously to talk to the people of Makerfield, where he's fighting a by-election, to the people of the Labour Party, who might elect him as their next leader, and to the country as a whole, ending on that shot of Westminster. That video was one of the most effective bits of political communication we've seen from the Labour Party, from anyone in the Labour Party for a long time. It was authentic. It was him. But is there anything much more to Andy Burnham than being a good salesman? And can what he's done in Manchester really translate to number 10?
2:07Welcome to The News Agents.
2:16It's Lewis. It's Meatless. And that video, the kicking off Andy Burnham's campaign in Makerfield, again, not officially the Makerfield candidate yet, so we'll wait and see if he's adopted. But that was put onto X and across his socials last night. It lit up a part of the Labour Party, which you got the impression had not felt it had anything to be happy about or hopeful or optimistic about for quite some time. I think it's just worth, because I think it is very revealing of the sort of politician that Andy Burnham is and what he might believe. I think it might just be worth playing you a bit more of that video in full.
2:59I was born in Liverpool but my journey began in this area. I went to a school about two miles over there and I remember coming here 1984 and getting battered on these pitches on the rugby league field but I didn't hold it against them. I sent my three kids here because Eddie's is a great school. It was growing up in and around these streets that I saw what Thatcher's government did to places like this, the de-industrialisation, the draining away of economic, social and political power. It left places like Makerfield behind and Britain has been on that path for the last 40 years and it was the sense of injustice I got about the way this country is run that took me towards politics.
3:47You OK? Yeah, well I'm a United supporter. Oh are you? Right, yeah, yeah. You are more than welcome in Ashton. You should know that. Thanks very much. So I went into politics to fight for ordinary people. I fought for the miners here and the compensation we got from the last Labour government, for justice for the Hillsborough families. And also when Boris Johnson's government tried to treat people here like second class citizens during Covid, I fought back. What all of these experiences have taught me is that Westminster doesn't work for people in this part of the world and communities like this across the UK.
4:28Andy Burnham:it's really interesting that it's not a particularly slick video it's slightly overexposed when you see it but somehow what he has managed to convey is a sense of being totally comfortable in his own skin of being totally comfortable in his own patch with his own people who recognize him who come up to him who he can greet in a kind of normal sounding human way. And yes, to some extent, we are learning Andy Burnham's backstory, his school, his loves, his fights for justice over Hillsborough. He doesn't like Margaret Thatcher. He does not like Margaret Thatcher. And I guess the key bit there, if you were to sort of extrapolate from the content of that video, is he's saying that fundamentally, none of the economics of Britain has worked for that part of the world for 40 years.
5:21Andy Burnham:And I guess guess that takes us on to a really interesting question, which is the part that Andy Burnham is trying to present as an outsider, rather than an insider. He was inside the Blair government in the 90s, 2000s. He was inside the Brown government. He stood as part of the Labour Party in three leadership elections. So I guess that is where some of those questions will take us on to. This is a man now trying very hard to fight as an insurgent, as a Mancunian, taking on Westminster and saying, they don't understand you. I do. And that really seems to me the big sort of, you know, the big irreconcilable thing around this campaign right now.
6:04Andy Burnham:Is he inside? Is he outside? Yeah, I think we can talk a little bit about his presentation skills in a minute, which I think are important. But I do think that there is something a little bit more than just presentation, if nothing else, in the sense of the style of politics that he's affecting, which is something very familiar to American politics, but very unfamiliar to British politics, which is basically the idea of the kind of sheriff coming into town to clean it up. That's very common in American politics. In American politics, you do have, you know, classically different senses of power within the United States.
6:37You know, you've got the states, you've got the governors. It is a well trodden path in US politics for a governor of a state. Think Bill Clinton or George W. Bush, even Donald Trump, you know, to some extent, not a governor, but on the outside of Washington to come in and say, I'm coming in and I'm going to drain the swamp. I'm going to clean this up on the outside. Now, that historically hasn't been very possible in British politics, because the only centre of national politics or politics really, certainly in most of the 20th century, was Westminster. It was impossible to reach the top of Westminster unless you had been part of Westminster for often decades.
7:09With the mayoralties that we've got now, that has changed. There are, and we saw it with Boris Johnson to some extent with London, and we're now seeing it with Andy Burnham, you now have someone able to build a power base that is external to London and to Westminster and run against London and Westminster. and insofar as Burnhamism or as it's called Manchesterism is a thing it is in terms of the politics at least it's basically that right it's running against Westminster and it is clear I think from that that I think what you can potentially say about Burnham is that he does have something beyond communication skills that Starmer has not had which is it might be right it might be wrong but it is a theory of power and an analysis of power and his theory and analysis of power is basically to say that Westminster has hoarded it for too long that has led to economic social and political power being hoarded by a group of people in Westminster and in London which is letting down the sort of places that he's talking about in that video as I say it might
8:09Andy Burnham:be right it may be wrong but that's basically his theory yeah and I think it's quite um clear that what he is doing is trying to play reform at their own game and he's basically saying I can play the insurgent. I can be the one that comes in and tells Westminster that it's not working. And if you look at the timing that he set out, I think it's quite interesting because he makes the same point in a speech. The speech that we played you a little bit of yesterday, he accidentally says the last 50 years, and then he corrects himself and says the last 40 years. My core argument is this.
8:51Britain, if you look at the last 50 years, Britain has been on the wrong path. 40 years, 40 years on the wrong path. A path that has damaged communities across the north.
9:10Andy Burnham:Now, OK, just a slip of the tongue, but I kind of noticed it because if you go back to 50 years, you include the first EU referendum, 1975. Technically, that could suggest that the whole time that we spent within some kind of common market was very bad for Britain. And he corrects himself and says 40 years. In other words, he starts with Thatcher. He talks about the miners strike. He talks about deindustrialisation. He talks about austerity. He talks about Covid. Obviously, he sets himself apart from Westminster as the man who felt that Manchester was getting an unfair deal from then Boris Johnson, Prime Minister over Covid.
9:49Andy Burnham:And so he allows you, he allows himself to paint this picture of all the terrible things that have happened to the north. And frankly, you know, I grew up in Sheffield at the time of the miners strike. I remember that sense that the people who grew up in Manchester and Leeds, Nottingham and Sheffield had a totally different concept of Thatcherism to people who were starting to make money in the south, starting to work in the city, starting to find they could buy their own houses. It was just a totally different perception, you know, that if you meet people now who didn't sort of come anywhere near the sort of the mining towns, the mining cities of the north of England in the 80s, they don't understand where that hatred comes from.
10:32Andy Burnham:And it was really instilled very deeply in the parts of the world where I grew up and where he was talking about. But I think what he's done by not saying 50 years, forgive me if this is an overinterpretation, is still allowing at some point for this sense that Europe plays a part in the bigger picture of what he could do if he ever made it to Downing Street to fight another election. And I do think that is pretty critical because you can't say simultaneously, I hope it happens in my lifetime that we rejoin the EU and I'm not going to touch it if I'm prime minister. You sort of have to reconcile both those things.
11:09Andy Burnham:So I think it allows a door to remain open there, at least. I think that as well, I mean, the thing about this idea of of of Manchesterism or and you can boil that down, right, basically to, you know, more devolution. Some people have called it kind of business friendly social democracy or socialism, you know, sort of working with business to try and sort of regenerate particularly urban areas. And so on more devolution to give local areas more control over their own lives. And look, one of the ways in which that's potentially helpful to him is precisely as you said, Emily, it is going to be essential to him to maintain this sense of insurgency, even if he does become prime minister.
11:48And in order to do that, he has got to find a way. It's already very well talking about Manchesterism. One bit of scepticism you could say about Burnham is to say, well, look, it's it's it's quite easy in Britain being a sectional politician. And what I mean by that is that you are representing a section of the country. It is easy if you're the SNP First Minister or the Welsh First Minister or the Mayor of Greater Manchester. You're just fighting for Scotland. You can always, you're fighting for, who you're fighting for is very clearly defined and you have an enemy, you know, to fight against.
12:17Andy Burnham:And you eyeball them every day. Yeah, exactly. Everything that goes wrong, you can just go, bloody hell, those down in Westminster, they just don't understand us, they don't get it. Now, you can't do that by definition if you're Prime Minister. I think, though, that there is an agenda that he's clearly alighting upon, which could help in that regard, which is this sense. We know we've got economically straightened circumstances. We know as well that he's now signed up to the fiscal rules. It means that, you know, it is going to fiscally put him into a bit of a straitjacket. Fiscally, what a Burnham government is going to do is not going to be so different to what a Starmer government has done or is planning to do.
12:48But if you start talking about the redistribution of power, not just the redistribution of wealth and income, then that is something that you can do for free. And it seems radical, and it is talking about freedom and things the right often talks about, freedom for people to control their own lives. Because back in the Brexit campaign, that word control was so potent, and it was completely the right message. Because in this country for decades now, Burnham's right, people have not felt control over their own destinies. Now, the one caveat I'd say to that for the Labour Party is this. the Labour Party historically has not felt that comfortable with devolution.
13:21I mean, that's a slightly odd thing to say because, of course, it was Blair who did it for Scotland and Wales. But that was as a result of the feeling that they had to have more control over their own destiny because they weren't voting for Conservative MPs, which England kept doing time after time. But you know what the thing about devolution is? If you devolve, you've got to accept something that the Labour Party doesn't much like. Inequality. You've got to accept that some places... Post-colorseries, yeah. Exactly right. You've got to accept that some places go in their own directions and some places are going to go in different directions and some places will be run better and some places will get richer and some will get poorer.
13:55Now, the Tories are quite comfortable with that. Historically speaking, the Labour Party has not been comfortable with that. And even in Greater Manchester, you have criticism of Burnham and his record, which is to say, well, yeah, great. Central Manchester is a great success story. You know, you've got great new developments gleaming, glistening glass towers going up everywhere. You've got massive investment going into central Manchester and Salford. But if you go to the places, of course, where he was standing there, Makerfield or Wigan or the outer boroughs, it's very often that that wealth and income does not necessarily trickle down or transfer through.
14:29So there is a sort of, I think, psychological change. The Labour Party or parts of the Labour Party would have to get used to with Manchesterism, which is, yeah, devolve all you like, but you've got to accept that inequality is inherent in that devolution.
14:41Andy Burnham:Well, I also think that once you are, I mean, we are getting ahead of ourselves, clearly, because there is a make-a-feel by-election for him to win first. And then there is the question of, you know, whether there's a coronation, whether there's some kind of leadership context or the rest of it before he gets to a place of prime minister, if he does get to a place of prime minister. But then once you're prime minister, you don't have them and us. You have all of us. So you decide who you're going to put taxes on. You decide whose welfare bill you're going to cut. And somebody is going to hate you at the end of that.
15:14Andy Burnham:That doesn't go for free. Whilst I'm talking about that, let's just give you these numbers, because YouGov overnight came out with pretty clear signs of where the polling lies if there's a leadership contest. And one of the reasons that Andy Burnham can afford to look pretty chipper in that video is that he is on a whopping 47 percent from Labour members. Starmer comes in second place on 31 percent. Rayner then 8 percent. West Streeting 4 percent. Miliband and Cooper both on 3 percent. Yvette Cooper. Jabana Mahmood on 1 percent. And poor Al Karnes doesn't yet make a digit. Keep bench pressing now.
15:55Keep going. Yeah.
15:56Andy Burnham:And I guess if you look at these head to heads, Burnham beat Starmer, as I think we said yesterday, by more than 20 percentage points. And Burnham would beat Wes Streeting by about 70 percentage points. So, I mean, this is why if it sounds to you as if we are kind of talking as if the race has already kind of been done and dusted. It hasn't. Of course it hasn't. And we are probably five weeks away from that by-election still. but this is I think where people's heads are going now to your point about you know have we sort of already has there been this mental coronation of Burnham as the next prime minister why are we talking about his policies why are we talking about his messaging why are we talking about this because the polling seems to be sending us in that direction and we know that polling can be wrong and we know that there can be upsets and we know that a host of things can happen in five weeks but I'm guessing that reform looking at this is not going to play somebody very high profile against Burnham just in case this is absolutely right.
16:59Well, yeah, I mean, they say they're going to throw everything at it. So we'll see. I mean, it might, you know, at the moment, and I think the Makerfield thing is clearly the big problem, obviously, for Burnham. I think, you know, once he's in Parliament with numbers like that, I think Starmer would have no choice but to give in. I don't really see. Streeting says he's going to contest it with numbers like that. I just don't see it. So Makerfield is obviously the big obstacle he has to overcome. But it kind of feels to me, Emily, we're almost in this, it almost feels like, again, to use an American counter example, it almost feels like that period you have after an American election when you have transition.
17:30You know, when you have an incoming president and you have an outgoing president. From November to January. Yeah, and everyone is sort of, you know, you've got the president-elect almost. Now, of course, that is putting the cart before the horse because he's got to get elected in Makerfield. But that's sort of how it feels. It's this extraordinary, extraordinary sort of constitutional period that we wouldn't normally have. I mean, a reflection of that yesterday was that Burnham is already, to some extent, not just by journalists, but being treated as a sort of incoming prime minister, being treated by the markets as such.
17:55I mean, you know, he is now things that he is saying are now having market reactions and market effects. You know, when he committed to the fiscal rules or recommitted properly to the fiscal rules yesterday, UK government costs went down. So, you know, we're in this remarkable position where, you know, Keir Starmer is still the prime minister. He's still saying, I ain't going anywhere. He's still insisting he will fight a contest. And yet we have Andy Burnham basically being treated by everybody as an incoming prime minister, even though he has to win the election. I'm just going to posit something that I'm picking up.
18:27Andy Burnham:And I think I'm picking it up amongst some of our listeners and our audiences as well, which is a slight queasiness to all this, to the sort of speed at which things are happening. And the sense that something has almost been created from nowhere that is leaping ahead. And I was with, you know, a group of people last night, I guess you'd call them sort of, you know, opinion formers, leaders, whatever, who were saying, look, this is this is a sort of a leaping so far ahead. we are in a place where we are about to create political instability all over again. And if we want to know why we have economic problems, it's because we have political instability followed by economic problems, followed by then another round of political instability kicked off by the economic problems, followed by more economic problems.
19:20In other words, you know, I was speaking to a sort of a very renowned economist this morning, and he said, look, can you see what's happening? We just got through the financial crash, austerity.
19:35Andy Burnham:The Cameron years were just starting to turn the table. People were just starting to fight their way out of those horrible years of cuts and pain and austerity and, you know, a real squeeze. And what did we do? We leapt into Brexit. And so the whole thing started again. And then we had 10 years of Brexit and we thought we were just sort of starting to. And then we went into the pandemic. And I think there is amongst some people this sense. And we were talking about this morning. Yeah, the the economic figures for the country aren't great. But before the Iran conflict, they were starting to go in the right direction.
20:13Andy Burnham:There was a sense that after two years, this government was actually starting to turn around the oil tanker. They were getting better figures. Certainly the first quarter figures were looking better. they were starting to prove what was actually happening and now we're sort of leaping into the dark again and going oh i know what we can do now more political instability more economic depression more political instability more economic depression so we're on this sort of slightly hungry voracious cycle where we just keep on breaking things in the middle now i know the answer to that is if if you're an mp in makerfield or if you're an mp virtually anywhere in the country right now you think that reform is coming at you because and also your voters think it's already broke unless the voters are basically kicking starmer kicking labor in a local election but they're not actually saying kick him out they're just saying let him do better i don't know i mean i just think that from everything we know look if the voters wanted starmer to continue in office they would vote for his party and they're not if voters wanted starmer to continue in office they would give him higher approval ratings they don't yeah but we know from all the focus groups as we know you know you know i both talk to someone like luke trill a lot he'll tell you he's and we've talked about this unfairly fairly yeah he's reviled he's reviled and i think one of the reasons that he has become reviled is because people genuinely believe and again i can understand why lots of people will think this is unfair they believe he believes in nothing and one of the reasons that they think he believes in nothing i mean to some extent he doesn't have as we've talked about before he doesn't have great you know ideological kind of vision or anything like that but also because what he does believe, he's unable to communicate.
21:47I mean, I'll just contrast what we saw with Burnham. And there's more to politics and communications, obviously, although in the 21st century, I think it's clearly more important than ever. Just contrast the Burnham video and how sort of easily he communicated himself, his authenticity, what he was about. And compare it to something I noticed on Keir Starmer's Instagram today, where he was talking about something I'm sure that's, well, I know it's really, really important, something that's really valuable his government's doing. but the way he's talking about it I think for most people will be an instant switch off.
22:15So I'm in this wonderful cafe in North London talking to local businesses about the small business protection bill which we're introducing tomorrow. I've got lots of provisions which will help small businesses. The one I think that most people are talking about is the late payments because for small businesses that is a real problem. Often the people who are late in their payments are clients, they're customers and therefore it's very difficult to take action And so we're taking that action, putting enforcement around for them. It's part of the change that we bring about for the country, making sure that small businesses have that chance to thrive.
22:48Everybody running a small business puts their whole heart into it. And it's good to have a government that's introducing a bill that gives them better protections and helps them do that. I 100 percent hear where you're coming from.
23:01Andy Burnham:You know, the difference in style of communication between Burnham and Starmer is huge. But I think it takes me back to what I was just saying, which is fundamentally Starmer is starting to get things done. What he's talking about is, you know, helping small businesses. Don't we always talk about growth? Don't we always talk about the importance of actually doing stuff? And I think there is a feeling that Burnham represents something that is right now new and exciting. But actually, we don't really know what his direction of travel is. I mean, he hates the whole chameleon jokes, you know, that have followed him around, you know, the Corbynite, you know, that whole, the gag.
Read the full transcript
23:44A new Labour person, a soft left person, a Corbynite walks into a bar and says, what do you like, Mr. Burns? Exactly.
23:49Andy Burnham:And he knows that. And I think that his fight back has always been, look, do you know what? I adapt to the leader that I'm working for. I play like a football player. Changing circumstances. Well, yes, and I'm loyal. And so actually, I'm not going to I'm not going to sort of stand on the sidelines carping. I'm going to be part of the team and I'm going to make happen whatever that leader wants. So I think he's alert to all that. But I think there are still people who say, yeah, I mean, we understand the bus, the B bus thing. We understand that he's now talking about public ownership. But if you break that down, what does it mean?
24:22Andy Burnham:We have plenty of sort of, you know, kind of public ownership regulation in lots of different spheres. And it doesn't always translate to, you know, off what working or off gem working or any of the other industries working. I think there is a lot of unknowns about him still, which are making people say, do we really want he's he's bound to come in, do something big, do something brave to show that he's got a message. But I think there's still a lot of caution about whether that's going to be the right thing to do and a brave thing that works as opposed to something that is trying to reflect who he is.
24:57There are a lot of unknowns, but there are also a lot of knowns about the current situation. And the knowns about the current situation, as far as most Labour MPs are concerned, I have to say I agree with them, is that, you know, you talk about instability. Starmer is the instability. He is the instability because he cannot command the parliamentary Labour Party. To be honest, he hasn't been able to do so since that welfare vote. and the rot set in from then. He is the one, he's going around saying, look, we can't have yet another change of prime minister and so on. If his political project had been more successful, we wouldn't have had the instability.
25:29Burnham is not the cause of the instability. He's a symptom of the instability. And as long as this situation goes on and you have Starmer who is now a prime minister in office but not in power, that is just going to get worse and worse and worse. And the other thing to say is this, I mean, you know, comms skills in modern politics, you know people sort of talk about as if it's an added extra and you and i you just said it yourself it is at least half of the job of contemporary politics whether we like it or not giving the impression and the vibes of being in this era that is highly fragmented when you need to get out your base is so so important i was talking to someone who knows makerfield very well the other day and they were saying there's something that i think there's been missed and a lot of the kind of commentary around the local elections it wasn't just a case in places like Makerfield, that the Labour vote collapsed and the Green vote sort of took some of that and then reform kind of came through the middle.
26:20In a lot of places, including lots of wards in Makerfield, turnout was substantially up and it was substantially up for reform. People there were excited to vote reform. They weren't just voting against Starm or Labour. They were voting for reform. So you need someone on your side of politics, which let's be honest, the Labour Party has not had for some time who can elicit and can evince that similar kind of excitement and get your people out. And in order to do that, you need communications and salesmanship like we saw with that video from Burnham yesterday.
26:51Andy Burnham:Yeah, that's right. I mean, just to go beneath the ways a little bit on those votes, very little of the Labour vote is actually going to reform. Where reform is upping the vote is by getting people out who didn't vote before, which I think, you're right, is a big deal. and obviously sort of attracting conservative voters who wouldn't really have anywhere to go in those sort of places. I mean, clearly Labour in those places, in many places, is losing more to the Greens and the Liberal, the Lib Dems right now. And I think that's quite important. And that's something presumably that whoever comes in will have to be super aware of, that we have this image in our head that it's Labour voters going to reform.
27:34Andy Burnham:I think the churn is much more complicated than that. And I think it is about getting the vote out, definitely. Should I say just one thing very quickly? I thought watching that video. Watching the Burnham one. Which one? The Burnham one, yeah. It kind of made me think and reminded me how rare it's been in recent politics to just have a politician, a leader of a political party, who both communicates fluently and casually, maybe a bit bloquishly, but not intensely. Like when I was sort of thinking like how, one thing I think Burnham has is he's both charismatic but he's not intense, politically intense in a way that, you know, Farage charismatic but a very intense person you know, Kemi Badenow, quite charismatic but my god she's so online you know, she basically talks as if she's tweeting at people the entire time, that kind of slightly rude kind of attacking as if she's quote tweeting everything everybody says, Zach Palancey again, charismatic, but again these are all very sort of online, when I think about I guess that's not really charismatic is it?
28:31Maybe charisma is the wrong word
28:33Andy Burnham:you're right, presence, they're very online. Yes, exactly, yes, I think that's absolutely right, I think that's absolutely right I think they talk as if they are about to be re-quoted Yes, exactly. I think Burnham definitely has a sense of where his home is, what he likes who he knows. It is just being you know, gian d 'un sapog at home, not a phrase he probably is in the middle of the make-up violation But it is a sense of being at home in his skin. Just before we end, I ran into West Streeting last night. I was at the Chelsea Flower Show, which tends to be where you sort of have the most intense political chats.
29:16Andy Burnham:Over the rhododendrons. Do you know, I think I've seen about three plants over the last 10 years. But I do tend to sort of catch up with interesting people. And it's very interesting. I did ask Wes how he felt the whole kind of Brexit thing, you know, had landed. The sort of rejoin the EU thing had landed. Did you regret that? Did you think you wish you hadn't said that? And he said, no, you know, I'm really pleased it's caught on. I've got more to say. He's going to make an intervention tomorrow, Wednesday, where he will be talking about... He'll be opening his mouth, Wes Freeing. That sounds unlike him.
29:54Andy Burnham:Yeah, he's going to talk about defence and the next generation. and so I think that there is I mean I did sort of say how how are you feeling about all this and he said you know it is a curious moment when you open your door and you're used to seeing a ministerial car take you to work and instead you see a snapper when you're on the way to the gym you know so this is this is the sort of the new life I guess of somebody who has gone from a very very highly public place to somebody who is now sort of re-examining their own sort of space and place on the back benches but thinks I mean what he said is he will still enter a race I don't know if that is now becoming a vanishingly small potential reality but yeah he's got more to say I'd stick to the Buddleia Bushes if I were you Wes we'll be back just after this
30:52Andy Burnham:From a range of trusted voices and award winning journalists Good morning, I'm Nick Ferrari. It's time to get to your calls. Find out the latest news and hear every side of the story. So just as I take responsibility for the results, I also take responsibility for delivering the change that we promised for a stronger and fairer Britain that we must build. Now he's still toast. He's just wasting our time now. The words of two in a growing list of Labour MPs whose patience with the Prime Minister has run dry. Is there anything he said or can say to make you want him to stay? Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app.
31:28LBC, leading Britain's conversation.
31:54Andy Burnham:Visit paycor.com slash leaders and go from work flood to workflow. That's paycor.com slash leaders.
32:09Well, we're joined now by Neil Lawson. Now, Neil is on the Council of Mainstream Labour, which is widely seen. It's quite a new organisation, but it's seen as a pro-Burnham organisation from within outside the Labour Party. Neil, thanks so much for coming in. My pleasure. You were just saying before we started recording that you had a hand in the video that we saw last night. Just on the kind of concept basis of it. I was trying to think about how to obviously show him in the best light. And I've been in Manchester a few times with Andy. You just see what the great reaction he gets on the streets.
32:39Genuine from people to him and him to people. So let's just do a kind of walkthrough of Manchester and just see what happens really. What do you put that down to? he is I think you've been discussing he is just really comfortable in his own skin like culturally you know and maybe because he's like you know mid to late 50s he's kind of eased into himself I'm not saying he wasn't before but when you see him pictured you know with a can of Guinness outside you know Everton's football ground that's really him you know that is not put on you know
33:11Andy Burnham:and the woman who greets him saying you're always welcome here yeah does she have to run through her lines a couple of times no no no no no pull her out of a no i mean i mean obviously at the end the editors used the ones that were best but it was it was all it was all authentic people in makerfield in manchester you know and and in the end they did get that kind of local national you know uh uh you know edge of city small smaller town you know and cosmopolitan you know you know and that's that's his appeal and that's got to be the appeal of anyone going forward i mean one of the chris is i i i agree we were talking you heard us talking that it's a very it's a feel-good video right which fundamentally is probably what you want to do i guess there is a a conflict between a feel-good video that shows a great place thriving and and then trying to say this has been abandoned it's terrible you know it's it's sort of we've never had the love that westminster has yeah and i think what andy's trying to do is make sure that that growth that comes through you know we can talk more about is you know how that happens you know is is spread everywhere you know and i think he's you know if he'd stayed up in manchester he would try and make sure that even more areas would fill that growth you know spreading out to other places so clearly it's a you've got to have growth you've got business investing you know but how do you go about making sure that that is spread equally everywhere which gets into that whole beautiful phrase business friendly socialism you know and i think that's what's been in practice has it gone far That's how you describe Manchesterism, is it?
34:42Well, I think it's a nice term to sort of sum up, you know, with all the tensions and the contradictions that inherit in that. And clearly, Makerfield and other places more on the periphery of Greater Manchester have had nowhere near, you know, enough business or socialism, I don't think. And what does it mean, Neil, business-friendly socialism? Well, I think it's the bit, the reason, I mean, I've been really standoffish with Labour leaders having been burnt in the past, you know, and I've been, you know, not, you know, impossible to please, But, you know, I didn't go anywhere near Corbyn. I didn't go anywhere near Starmer.
35:13And then Andy kind of hosed into view with this. I mean, I think it's pretty simple, but I think really important that you've got to link democratic and political reform with economic reform. You can't just tweak the Treasury and the engine and think that you've got to change politics. You've got to go long term. you've got to get the power out of London, you know Westminster and the Treasury you've got to give it all out to other places and other people, you've got to build this long term consensus and coalition so that you can make long term decisions about investment because they know that there's much greater political certainty which is going to lead them to much greater investment certainty and governments can then take long term investment decisions as well, that's what he's done in Manchester and that's what he learned from being in Manchester is that you've got to build the political consensus to make big change happen.
36:08Slight active kind of enabling states, transformation of kind of urban spaces, devolution of power, pro-business agenda. How different is that to New Labour? It sounds quite New Labour to me. Well, I think where it differs, I think is, you know, the times differ clearly. New Labour could be a singular governmental project with one party. I think we've gone past that point now and I think everyone recognises that, that we live in a multi-party reality. So you're going to have to do some kind of negotiation with other people, which is what he's done in Manchester. Despite the fact that he's won every ward in the GM elections, he brings Liberal Democrats and Greens and others in.
36:49So there is, you know, you're seeing every angle. But he won't have to do that in Parliament because he's going to have a majority of 160. Well, but we know what 160 majority means. You know, we've got that with Boris Johnson with 9T and Keir Starmer. These parliamentary majorities mean nothing if underneath all of that, there is political fragmentation and uncertainty in the country. So you've got to build a kind of consensus and coalition. So one of the big speeches he did up in Manchester on Manchester being the fastest growing economy in the country, he was introduced by the leader of the Liberal Democrats up there.
37:21And you think, what other politician would have someone from a rival party introducing you to make a speech? Who was praising a reformed mayor on Twitter. And the reformed mayor was, you know, praising him. So it doesn't mean to say there aren't big disagreements, but can you have a much more civilised, respectful and plural politics? So is it a consensual politics? Well, yeah, around a long-term agenda to invest, you know, both by the state and by business into places like Makerfield. And I think that's a big, big, big change in terms of the way in which you do politics so you can do economics differently.
37:54Andy Burnham:So, Neil, if I try to drill down and the reason I'm going to do this with you, and it sounds as if we're getting ahead of ourselves, but there's every chance that you might be part of a sort of, I don't know, an Andy Burnham-y sort of cabinet or you might be in with a job, right? Let's just spell it out. if it comes to something like welfare and we were talking about whether that was Starmer's big mistake in the first two years that he didn't really seem to know where he was going on welfare, he tried to get something through his backbenchers rebelled or his party rebelled, he didn't push it nobody was really disciplined and we're back where we started.
38:31Andy Burnham:Where do you think Burnham sits on the welfare issue? Does he think we spend way too much on welfare? Would he protect welfare? Would he take it inside his head? Yeah. Firstly, no one's given me a job in 25 years and they're not going to start now, I don't think. Secondly, I'm not a horse whisperer for Andy. I'm, you know, I talk to him and I know him and I like him and I'm supporting him. And I go back to the fundamentals on the welfare question. Here's a government that introduced a kind of bill with no big consensus again, you know, which obviously in Parliament it all backfired. it seemed to be kind of you know cut this for these people already struggling you know you know and and you know the sentiment of labor people you know and people across the country was you know don't hurt the people who are already hurting enormously but how do you you know how over time do you wrestle with that rising you know and and eventually impossible welfare bill well you know that there's a whole stream of things that have got to be put in place isn't there from you know from from education and training to housing to transport it's not just going to be done by cutting some people's benefits you know and and you know trying to you know incentivize them coerce them so the question was the wrong one i think it's a question wrong question entirely done in the wrong kind of way you know go out and you know the great thing about sectors like you know people who are you know more reliant on benefits and welfare is they're rich in understanding their lives what they need what would help if you had someone that went out and talked to those people in a meaningful sense and said look you know what you know what do you actually need what would actually help because you know the idea that these people are skiving around sitting on their sofas i'm not you know saying anyone in labour senate but it's like these people all want to play a productive part in the world and and and could be creative so how do you think that was messed up then i mean honestly take us to what you think well i think i think it's a very it was a you know and i felt this personally when they tried to throw me out of the party you know that it was a very small narrow project you know run by a few people who thought they were good technocrats who could you know you know pull some levers and make you know people's lives better and the world just doesn't work like that anymore as we've been talking already around the party system but across business and civil society it's fractured it's fragmented it's complicated and you've got to have a politics which can negotiate and navigate that kind of complex world and i think burnham's got the sentiment um you know to to to do that kind of practice that very different kind of politics he might have the sentiment but will he have the capacity and the ability in a sense that as you know he's recommitted to the fiscal rules he's also talked big about you know whole new program of council housing changes to the way public utilities are run and so on investment in the sort of areas like makerfield that he hopes to represent how does he do that if he to the fiscal rules well again i think i think if you can go over you know the long term there are things that can be done immediately you know i mean the big thing that if you go to greater manchester that people talk about is always the buses you know and cheap affairs now that isn't going to transform people's lives you know and more mayors are picking up on that but if that was to be done across the country then you know that people want to want to feel that someone is on their side that people don't want to have to pretend that there is going to be an immediate fix yes there are real fiscal rules and there are real spending that's what starman says yeah but starman never had of you know he never had a vision he didn't have he doesn't know how to govern and he doesn't really know who's governing for so i don't think andy's if he gets in is going to kind of be able to you know wave a magic wand and change things immediately for people um you know i think he should you know have a a recipe of things that would begin to change things whether that's something around food or something about rent controls or you know something around bus fares or whatever it is if Thames water does go under and you know the government could move in and you know and and take it back into proper public ownership and reduce bills and you know except so I think there are some things that can be done in the short term and then in the medium to longer term how do we you know build up whether it's council houses which I know he's very keen on you know technical education for apprenticeships you know bringing people in you know that way you know the re-industrialization agenda isn't the isn't the problem though we seem we tend to give our mayors time in a way that we don't really give our prime ministers and what you've set out an agenda which makes total sense if you imagine a sort of three blair term yeah right this is a this is a decade i don't know that you've got that sort of election anymore have you well i hope so and i've always in i think it's 10 out of the last 11 elections there has been an effect of progressive majority in this country that's always got to be active actively mobilized but because of our first path of the post system and because of the tribalism of the Labour Party we've never built on that progressive majority so if someone like Burnham can come in with his commitment to proportional representation his commitment to working with other progressive parties even you know one nation Tories I noticed that I think Sam Coates has put out something today saying 16 % his figure 16 % of Tory voters in Makerfield would go for Burnham?
43:40He's got a unique, it's kind of, it's electoral gold dust, the fact that he can appeal to, you know, five, six, seven percent of reform voters, big chunks of Tories and huge percentages of Liberal Democrats and Greens. And if you could, if he, you know, if he becomes prime minister and he, you know, leads Labour into the next election, but if he can do it in terms of mobilising that progressive majority, and you mobilise that progressive majority by having a progressive, you know, asking for a progressive mandate, And then you don't win like New Labour or Starmer did on a small target. Don't say anything very much.
44:14Don't scare the horses. Be afraid of Elon Musk or Rupert Murdoch. You can win on a mandate to actually start changing things. Now, that's not going to be revolution. It's going to be pragmatic. But you can actually start winning on pillars of changing the democracy more and changing our economy more. Ownership, you know, that isn't New Labour at all. You know, owning stuff is not new labour. And so you can start pragmatically building that up over time. And again, I think he's got some sense of building that kind of, you know, building on the progressive majority that resides in our country. Have you spoken to him over the last few days?
44:51I speak to him. How's his mood? I think it's, you know, when you get an instant... Upbeat is the word that everyone uses at this point. Good spirits. Yeah, yeah. Look, I think he knows he's got a challenge in the constituency. it would be stupid to say that it was anything other than that um but he look he's he's doing this he's moving from a pretty safe pretty secure job as mayor of greater manchester whereas we've seen in that video he's loved on the streets you know people really like him you know he doesn't have to throw all of this in you know and take the risk with the labor party with the seat etc he's doing it because i think he feels genuinely that his experiences of hillsborough his experiences of being the mayor in Greater Manchester, have equipped him with some insights, some thoughts, some ideas, and ways of governing and leading, which are going to be important for the country.
45:38And let's remember what's happening to the Labour Party. It's an existential crisis. If it continues as the way it is, there isn't going to be a Labour Party or one of any real importance in the country after the next election. So I think he thinks he has some capacity, some capability, and some leadership skills to do something about it.
45:57Andy Burnham:like you know fair play to him for for taking the punt does he think um that this by-election is essentially him stopping a reform government coming into power yeah and i think he you know i wasn't involved in the in the seats at all but i think he's he's very pleased that it's a reform facing you know seat because that's the big political test um for for the labour party and the country can can can we defeat you know national populism and nigel farage and i think if he can show that he can do it there then obviously that boosts him you know to do it in a general election so it's this is a real test it's burn them all bust i think yeah i think i think it is i think it is for the party and if it is for the labor party then i think it is you know for the country um and so this by-election you know could not be more important could not be more consequential And I don't think we could have a better candidate fighting for progressive policies in that place and in this time.
47:00Andy Burnham:Neil Lawson. Brilliant to have you in. Thanks for coming. Thanks, Neil.
47:21Andy Burnham:role, talent management, compliance software, and a lot more, connecting you to the people, data, and expertise you need to drive long-term business results. Visit paycor.com slash leaders and go from workflow to workflow. That's paycor.com slash leaders.
47:45And where are we? Where are we less than two years later? You're in a different party. We're here.
47:56We, we're here. Where are we? We're here. You used to be there. We're here. Well, the honourable member says, why did I...
48:06Andy Burnham:Max Wilkinson, Lib Dem MP, with hand gestures, showing Jenrick where he used to sit, as a frontbench member of the Conservative government, now trying to ask existential questions about the state of the country. And the thing about Robert Jenrick, which is so true of so many other reform MPs, but also often sort of populist politicians, they're just so good at laughing about themselves. They are. They're so good at taking a gag, you know, just getting more and more that ever sort of greater shade of puce as it goes on. And look, Max Wilkinson, this is a bit revenge for him, actually, because I was reading in May 2025, he was the victim of a misinformation campaign.
48:45a reform party social media account manipulated footage taken in the Commons to give the appearance Wilkinson had called Nigel Farage a stupid C word after Wilkinson raised a point of order in the Commons reform, deleted a post and had to issue apology to him in the House of Commons so a little bit of sweet revenge from Max Wilkinson there
49:02Andy Burnham:It is interesting isn't it though the sort of character that Jenrick's become because I mean he spoke for the Home Office at one point he spoke for immigration he spoke for reform He resigned over Rwanda. And now he is sort of seen as a laughingstock on the back benches of a party which may be on the rise, but actually has fallen back onto people like him to try and find its kind of parliamentary credibility. Well, very often, it's a bit like what we're going back to in that conversation we had at the start about that kind of like really the way that a lot of modern politicians are performing.
49:42And generic is a classic example of this. They're so online and their humor very much is directed with that kind of real kind of X sort of feel and character to it. That kind of like slightly snarky, aggressive, unpleasant. And it really works well on social media. But it's completely shown up in moments like that, because at moments like that, actually, the great house. of common politicians. You just laugh at yourself and you sort of have a little bit of a smile and maybe you have a little quip back a sort of knowing bit of self-knowledge. But he would just edit that out.
50:10Andy Burnham:I think in anything social all that stuff will be able to go. But he can't. He can't because the way politicians like that, the way they make jokes is sort of highly considered, highly crafted for digital content. And it's sort of, you're curated to within an inch of its life. And so you have moments like there which actually are quite revealing about those sorts of politicians who actually in terms of the spontaneity, the actual sort of human humor. Humor. Humor. Just don't have it. We'll be back tomorrow talking about lacking humor and humanity. We'll still be here. And self-knowledge. That's the news agency recipe.
50:44We'll see you then. Bye-bye. This has been a Global Player original
50:48Andy Burnham:production.
From the publisher
Andy Burnham has launched his campaign video for the Makerfield by-election. The first thing you notice is how comfortable he sounds in it. It’s a level of human communication almost unfamiliar in today’s politics - with a pitch not just to the constituency but to the nation. But is there more to him than the chips and gravy good vibes? And does he have an actual plan not just for Makerfield but for the country?
We speak to Neal Lawson - who is inside the Burnham camp - about how he thinks about politics, and what would be different if he ran the country.
The News Agents is a Global Production.
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