Is this Labour’s first woman leader?

0:02This is a global production. Politics is a brutal old business. Perfectly possible. The plot was brilliant. The plot to bring down, the get Andy to run and make a field, Josh Simon standing aside. It was absolutely one of the most brutally efficient and executed coups that there has been in modern British politics. You know, for better or worse, you were a part of it. I, again, wouldn't characterise it in those terms. My view, that he wasn't the right guy to lead the sort of change I think we need in the country.

0:30Miatta Fahnbulleh:You're in the energy department. You work for Ed Miliband now. You're heading up the energy department. Do you disagree with him about anything on energy policy? If you could design the energy system in the market, who wouldn't design it like the one that we have here? No, I think that's fair. I think the legacy of privatisation was botched, and I think successive governments have tried to patch it up. Your predecessor in Harriet Harman suggested that the next time there's a leadership election, men just shouldn't be allowed to stand. What do you think about that idea? And of course, you wouldn't necessarily have a vested interest in that, of course.

0:56Miatta Fahnbulleh:But, you know, what would you think of that idea? So, look, I wouldn't, you know, I do want a female leader of the Labour Party. It is embarrassing, right? A little bit. That is Miata Fambula, the MP for Peckham and the newest cabinet minister, replacing Ed Miliband as energy secretary. She's had a remarkable life story. The daughter of Liberian refugees into parliament and in less than two years is sat around the cabinet table and those in Westminster are already speculating that she might rise further still. The Conservative Party have already had three women prime ministers. Labour is yet to have a woman leader.

1:37Is she about to change all of that? Welcome to the News Agents.

1:46The News Agents. It's John. It's Lewis. And as we're saying, the Energy Secretary, Miata Fambula, is now sat around the cabinet table. She is someone that is already exciting quite a bit of speculation in Westminster about her future. Obviously, we've only just had a new prime minister, but such is the yearning, I think, for the Labour Party to have its first female leader. Admittedly, a yearning they never really act upon, but nonetheless, it is there. And she has had, as we were saying, a remarkable political journey and life story. brought up an intensely political family in West Africa. Her father was a prominent Liberian politician, foreign minister, eventually became a refugee.

2:28And Dici said that one of her earliest memories is being hid behind a bed while gunfire sounded outside. When she was six or seven, she fled Liberia because of the Liberian civil war. She ended up coming to the UK, settling eventually in London, went to Oxford, studied PPE, She was in and around Labour politics, but also was a civil servant working for the coalition government. And since she became an MP replacing the former deputy leader Harriet Harman in Peckham in 2024 in the Labour safe seat there, she did a very unusual thing, which she was put immediately into a ministerial position by the then prime minister, Keir Starmer.

3:08And as of the accession of the Burnham government, she was put into the cabinet replacing Ed Miliband, a longstanding ally. Yeah, it is absolutely remarkable to come in as a backbencher and be around the cabinet table within two years. I mean, if you were a retread and you had previously been in government, maybe not so surprising. But for someone who'd never been held ministerial office, it really is remarkable the speed with which kind of she was spotted as someone of exceptional talent and then to be given the job. but of course there are questions because she was appointed by Keir Starmer straight out of the blocks as a new backbencher which would have aroused a certain amount of jealousy I would think from some of her colleagues who are thinking geez I haven't even got a bloody select committee not in politics yeah no I think it probably everyone's always just pleased for each other in politics they always are it's like journalists as well always delighted when we see the success of one of our rivals I love my colleague's success exactly but then what does she do she gets this plumb appointment local council elections happen this year and she is the first to resign and it's an interesting kind of kind of question that arises from it was was she acting solely by herself or was she acting on behalf of others because she had always been exceptionally close to ed miliband now ed miliband and kia starmer had been you know very firm friends and if you get kia Starmer alone his greatest sense of betrayal is the fact about the way Ed Miliband behaved turned his back on him and was kind of you know I think is held partly responsible largely responsible for his downfall by the maneuverings that took place on the soft left of the Labour Party of which she was a part.

4:54Indeed and so there's I mean I think that the sort of revenge of the Starmerites if they can coalesce around each other will be an interesting sort of subplot for the politics of the autumn. But more importantly for the rest of the country, there are huge questions for her new brief. I mean, she was in the department before, but now she's Secretary of State leading it. There are immediate policy questions around new North Sea oil and gas licences. There is the question of what happens with Rosebank and Jackdaw, oil and gas fields respectively, in the North Sea, which have been sat in a kind of legal quagmire for quite a long time.

5:29She's going to have to decide about that. There is also the question as to whether, and it is intriguing, we've heard sort of different kind of points of emphasis from this new number 10 on this, as to whether the existing energy policies that were committed to as part of the Labour manifesto, particularly with regards to net zero, with regards to getting to 95 % clean power by 2030. These were big Starmer promises, big pledges that were made during the election and before. Whether those hold with the new Burnham government, because there is this emphasis that Burnham himself has made about the question of affordability and whether there is a trade off between those net zero commitments and simply reducing people's bills more quickly.

6:08So it is a really real lightning rod of an agenda that she has with huge press interests. So we are going to talk to her about some of those issues and more. I'm delighted to say we're joined in the studio by Miata Fambula, the Energy Secretary, newcomer to Andy Burnham's government and to the Cabinet table. Miata, you have gone from 0 to 100 miles an hour in record time, going in as a backbencher two years ago and now around the Cabinet table. It's a pretty remarkable story. Yeah, it's been quite a journey. It's a huge privilege. It was a privilege being made a minister to begin with as a new MP.

6:49That's quite a rare thing to happen. And I certainly didn't expect that in two years I'd be sitting here. But, you know, the way I think about things is you only get the chance to do these sort of jobs however often. And you've just got to run it. I don't know how long I'll be doing this job, but for as long as I'm here, there's a chance to drive change. And that's what I came into politics for. So let me put this gently. As you say, you were plucked from being a backbencher immediately by Keir Starmer. And you repaid that loyalty by resigning and calling for him to go after the local council elections and being the first minister out of the blocs.

7:27Well, when you put it like that, it sounds quite harsh. But look, I have a lot of time for Keir. I got to actually work with him quite closely when I was doing the social cohesion brief. And I saw his passion. I saw his commitment. And, you know, and I've consistently said this. I've never said a bad word about him because ultimately he was trying. My view, and it's a really personal decision, it's not an easy thing to resign because you're resigning from the team and you're stepping away from a team that you've been a part of. But my view, and that sort of was borne out in all the conversations I had with my constituents during the local elections, was that he wasn't the right guy to lead the sort of change I think we need in the country.

8:02You say it was a personal decision. I tell you what the people inside Starmer's circle think was that it was anything but a personal decision. This was an orchestrated move. You were very close to Ed Miliband. Ed Miliband had decided that Keir Starmer was no longer fit to be prime minister. And you were the outrider for what became a coup, brilliantly executed, against him and leads to Andy Burnham becoming the prime minister. Well, that wasn't my experience of it. You know, I, A, there were no calls. Well, A, that assumes I have no agency and I'm part of a sort of plot and just a piece in the jigsaw.

8:37And two, it's just not true. and yes there were many colleagues that were frustrated by where our government got to and many colleagues that saw what I saw which is we weren't we weren't projecting a vision for where we wanted to take the country and we weren't delivering the scale and pace of change that people wanted and different colleagues responded differently to that but I was very clear in my own head that I could not have had those conversations I had with so many constituents and heard what I heard on the doorstep and not act on it and for me it was a simple question of you know I was thinking can I sit in front of the prime minister of the day then look him in the eye and pretend I don't think that he's not the right guy to lead us forward and I can't and some people can make their peace with that I couldn't and it was the right thing for me to do to step down.

9:23I'm not suggesting that you acted can you know that there was a part of a plot and you were just being told what to do it is perfectly possible and I don't know I mean look politics is a brutal old business Perfectly possible. The plot was brilliant. The plot to bring down, to get Andy to run in, make a field, Josh Simon standing aside. It was absolutely one of the most brutally efficient and executed coups that there has been in modern British politics. And, you know, for better or worse, you were a part of it. Well, I, again, wouldn't characterise it in those terms. I don't think there was a sort of planned plot against Keir.

9:58I think a set of things happened organically. But, yeah, I came to the view. You know, I'd worked with Andy a long time to the context of devolution. I was really disappointed, actually, that he wasn't allowed to stand in Gorton and Denton. I thought that was a mistake. I came out publicly and said that was a mistake. And when he had the chance to run in Makerfield, I was really supportive of that. And, you know, candidly, I'm hugely supportive of him now. But I think there is a sort of rewriting of history that makes it seem as both well-conceived and constructed, as you're suggesting. And I just, that's not the reality of what I experienced.

10:37Miatta Fahnbulleh:Well, let's talk a little bit about the present and the future. Because as you say, you know, you're in the energy department. You work for Ed Miliband now. You're heading up the energy department. Obviously, there's been a huge level of scrutiny on that department and on energy prices, both for consumers and businesses, not least because Ed Miliband was in charge and he's a bit of a lightning rod for certain parts of the press. I think it's fair to say. do you disagree with him about anything on energy policy? Well look I think my job is to sort of look at where I'd start to say that you know I've worked with Ed for a really long time I worked with him in the department a lot of our agenda we shared but I've sort of come in halfway through our term in government and my job is to sort of look at the challenges that we face now and think about how I take us from where we are today to where we move forward I'm really clear that the number one issue that we are facing is affordability.

11:29And I felt that when I was doing the job when I was Minister for Consumers and affordability. I feel that doubly so now. Now, part of our answer to that is our drive to clean power, because we are overly exposed to global fossil fuel markets. And if we think about, if you like, the pinch points that consumers have felt, the Ukraine war, and now the Iran war, and we've got to decouple with that. And I believe that fundamentally. but I think that is necessary but not sufficient. And so if the main priority is affordability, you've got to do other things. And that is about reforming the markets to ensure it works for consumers.

12:06And that's ultimately making sure that we have a system that is far fairer than it is at the moment. And I'm as exercised about that as I am our drive to clean power. So my number one priority is how do we get bills down and how do we make energy affordable?

12:18Miatta Fahnbulleh:And is there, sometimes, I know over the long term, you know, ministers, Ed Miliband would say, you know, over the long term, those two things are compatible but in the short to medium term is there a trade-off sometimes between clean power and cheap power so not in my mind because if i look at the drivers of affordability i think there are three drivers one is that exposure to gas and unless we can break that exposure we're always going to be in a position where we are behold on our markets we can't control and prices that we can't control and that is ultimately driving up prices i think The second thing is, look, if you could design the energy system in the market, you wouldn't design it like the one that we have here.

12:58I think the legacy of privatisation was botched. And I think successive governments have tried to patch it up without fundamentally getting to a market. There is a trade off, isn't there, Energy Secretary, in a sense that if we want to get to clean power and net zero more quickly, then that requires a lot of investment to be front loaded, which is expensive. Someone has to bear the cost of that. And ultimately, very often it's the taxpayer and the consumer. And that is one of the reasons why we have got, and this is, as you say, a failure over many governments over many years, basically the most expensive industrial power in Europe or in the West.

13:32Well, so that's not wholly the case. Let me just try and unpack it a little bit. So there are two things that are going on. There is a piece around just our infrastructure. So for the network to be operating, for our energy system to be operating, we've got to invest in it. We would have to do that even if we weren't moving to net zero. but you choose the pace well let me come back to that in a second my frustration is that we had a government for a decade and a half that did not build out our infrastructure and upgrade our infrastructure we do need to pay for it if we want the system to operate and at the moment yes a lot of that is being carried through the build and we need to think about how we recover those costs in a fair way there is a second element which is about clean power and how we diversify our energy system well let me put it a different way

14:16Miatta Fahnbulleh:are you still committed asked you if you disagree with anything with Ed Miliband. Are you still committed to delivering Clean Power 2030 as Ed Miliband was? Well, so I am committed to driving towards clean power. But ultimately, my job is to make sure that we do that in a way that is affordable for people. So it sounds like actually there is some movement there to me. It sounds like that the manifesto commitment to reach, what was it, 95 % clean power by 2030. Is that in the name of affordability potentially moving slightly? Well, so listen, I think it's always good to have stretched targets and candidly if we hadn't had that mission and that manifesto commitment we would not have delivered the scale of renewables that we're seeing in the system so 100 billion pounds of investment in clean power has now been consented that's enough to power 23 million homes but it does sound like some flexibility there secretary of state but what i'd say is that we came in and we were really clear and i was part of that team and we were really clear that the job was to create momentum towards something after a decade and a half where we'd gone all over the place and we'd lagged.

15:16Miatta Fahnbulleh:It was more than a manifesto commitment, wasn't it? No, no, absolutely. And it was about driving that forward. Now, the job that I have now at this point is to look at the progress that we've made, which we have to continue driving forward. I want that scale of investment to not just continue, but critically to then translate into things that people feel. But are you still committed to it or not? I mean, yes or no? Well, yeah, we are committed to moving towards it. I think the question that I have to grapple with is how do we do that in the fairest possible way, given the constraints that we face, given the world that we're operating.

15:45Miatta Fahnbulleh:Moving towards something is a bit different to being committed to, isn't it? Well, look, you're not going to see me resolve from driving forward because I think if we can unlock £100 billion of investment, that is a good thing. That is about jobs in every community. Just one other thing on energy. And ultimately, why does it matter? Why does it matter? When people are looking at the price today, you know, we had really difficult news that the price cap was going up. That is because of our reliance on gas. So we have to bring more clean power onto the system in order to break that. Now, I think that that is good for bills and I think that is good for consumers and good for our communities.

16:18But you've always got to balance those tradeoffs. And in the end, that is the job.

16:22Miatta Fahnbulleh:And one other thing on energy. I mean, the decision is coming up on on Rose Bank and Jackdaw. Will the policy on new North Sea oil and gas licenses stay the same? Well, look, we've been really clear about our policy. So the manifesto is clear on new licenses. That remains our position. And, you know, the second thing I found coming into the job, actually the whole debate around the North Sea quite astounding because we've always been quite pragmatic we've always been clear that oil and gas are part of our energy mix as we make the transition and I often say to people it's not just the government the committee for climate change our climate watchdog is also clear that oil and gas are part of the mix as we make that transition that policy says the same no new licenses that is our manifesto commitment no new licenses and we will hold to that manifesto commitment the issue just on Rosebank and Jack Dorr which you No, I can't comment on, but go and ask the question.

17:11I'm going to ask you if you made up your mind. Well, so we have just finished off the consultation. Jack's door is sooner than Rosebank, just in terms of the closing days of the consultation. The team are now doing all the analysis, and that will be put to me, and I will make a view based on the evidence that I'm given and based on the analysis that I'm given. The Labour government has been in power for over two years now, and we're still waiting, waiting and waiting and waiting for this decision. In my defence, I've been energy-shaking tree for six weeks. Yes, but you speak for the government.

17:42You speak for the government. Look, we will make a decision. And what I would say, so the two things that have become really clear to me about the North Sea is there are two issues that have been conflated. There is one which is the genuine issue around the decline of Aberdeen, the denuding of that community, what's a proud, vibrant economy, and North Sea workers. And, you know, I get a little bit triggered when I get this criticism from our opposite number from the Conservative Party, because candidly, half of the jobs in the North Sea were lost between 2013 and 2023. That area has been abandoned.

18:27And look, that is the history of how Tories do industrial transition, where you just leave communities and you hollow them out. That is not what a Labour government can and it will ever do. And so there is a job for us to make sure there is a proper plan for Aberdeen, which is both about preserving jobs, but also creating new jobs. There is a second issue, if I may, which is around affordability. Now that is my number one priority. And if you care about affordability, North Sea does not solve that problem for you because ultimately, particularly oil, is all exported on these global markets that are then driving high prices for us.

19:00So it's an outsized debate that candidly doesn't always deal with the issue of what's our plan for Aberdeen, which we absolutely must have. And how do we solve the problem of affordability, which is my number one priority? OK, but look, then the counter argument to that is that Britain accounts for, I think, less than 1 % of global emissions. So the idea that we are leading the world and the world is watching. I mean, they may be watching and they may be reaching the conclusion that look at what Britain has done about clean energy and they have got the most inexpensive energy in Europe as a consequence of some of the changes that are being driven.

19:35and therefore let's not follow Britain. Can I challenge that? Can I challenge that? Yeah, go on. So if you look at France and you look at the deployment of nuclear, so a time when, candidly, the North Sea was declining, so we saw it reached its peak in 1999 and we saw a decline over the periods. Norway, France, nuclear, Norway, hydroelectricity and wind power that are now absolutely powering the economy. Every smart economy...

20:03Miatta Fahnbulleh:Norway is not stopping exploring or giving new licenses in North China, is it? No, but my point is... They're using that revenue to power the transition, so why don't you? Quite, but my point is every economy that was smart saw the direction of travel and make sure they were diversifying their energy mix. We did not do that, leaving us exposed to global markets. And so whatever we do, whether you believe in net zero or not, which I fundamentally do, you have to diversify your energy mix. Let me put this critique to you, which is that what you have done is you have contrived an energy policy which wins huge approval among university educated guardian readers but which has resulted in the working class playing far more for energy than anyone else in Europe and that actually this is a policy that sounds great and makes liberals with their SUVs and their second homes feel great about themselves but has left a lot of ordinary working people a lot worse off.

21:01So can I ask you a question Did our energy start becoming affordable two years ago or have we had a long-term structural problem? There's been a long-term structural problem, but the policy of driving towards net zero. No, John, it's nothing to do with driving towards net zero. We have a structural problem. I absolutely can see that our energy is far too expensive. You know, you go around the country, it's one of the privileges of the jobs. I talk to people all the time. Energy is a massive issue. And look, my frustration with it is I'm of the belief that energy is an essential good. It's an everyday essential.

21:31So it has to be affordable. and it has not been. And candidly, it hasn't been since we privatised the energy market and since we stopped the energy market working for people. That's the thing that we have to turn around. But it's candidly quite disingenuous to say that it is a function of net zero or the transition to clean power. I agree with the analysis that our energy market isn't affordable. My job is to get us there. And that is about breaking our dependence on global fossil fuel markets. That's necessary, but it's not sufficient. that is also about making sure that we have an energy market that actually works for consumers and that's every part of the market and then thirdly that point about investment which we talk about how do we make sure that we are investing in the energy system but in a way that is fair that's the thing that's in the industry that's the thing that i absolutely must deal with but that i'm determined to deal with and we'll have more from the secretary of state in just a moment

22:38how do you think the summer's gone with the new government so i mean look we i think we started well in so far as if i think about some of my criticisms of the last version of our government i think the thing that i am seeing from andy and the team is firstly clarity of project you know journalists like you spend a lot of time criticising us for not being clear about what our vision for the country was, the story we were trying to tell the country, the journey we were taking the country on. I don't think anyone can criticise Andy of that. I don't think anyone can be under any illusion about where we're trying to go.

23:12So for me, as someone that is trying to deliver for the government, that's brilliant. I think the second thing I'd say is that I think we've come in with intent and, you know, for me, the first thing that I did, Andy did on this first day of the job, the first thing I was asked to kind of implement was that VAT cut to electricity bills. That was us recognising that we know that cost of living is a massive issue for the country and we know that we've got to run at it. And that was, you know, on my side, the bus fare, two pound cap, action that people can see what we're about and that we are intent on moving.

23:46And look, and the thing I found the most candidly inspiring is sometimes in government, it's easy to do the easy things. and you know Andy's mode is we've got to run at the hard things and whether that is social care, whether that is the problem with needs, that's quite inspiring to be part of a team so there's a huge amount that we have to do I hope the public will give us a hearing and candidly we all have to crack on and deliver.

24:11Miatta Fahnbulleh:One thing that obviously has happened this summer with the change of Labour leader is there's been another change in Labour leader and it happens to be another man and your predecessor in Peckham as the MP for Peckham, Harriet Harman former deputy and acting leader of the Labour Party suggested the next time there's a leadership election men just shouldn't be allowed to stand. What do you think about that idea? And of course you wouldn't necessarily have a vested interest in that of course but what would you think of that idea? So look I wouldn't, you know I do want a female leader of the Labour Party It is embarrassing right?

24:39A little bit. I do want a female leader of the Labour Party but we've got amazing women in the Labour Party and I think we will get a female leader of the Labour Party based on merit. I don't think we need to exclude the men from the process we will get a female leader of the Labour Party.