Is Tony Blair really the right person to sort out the Middle East?

0:02Emily Maitlis:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:30Emily Maitlis:the idea for the Board of Peace. But I'd said yes. And I guess because of that, every leader, everybody wants to be on the Board of Peace. And we're going to watch over that very volatile part of the world and keep it non-volatile. That is Donald Trump and his plan for Gaza. And what he says will bring eternal peace to the Middle East for the first time in 3 ,000 years. But so far, we haven't heard from Hamas and whether they're going to buy into this. And if not, what then? The Board of Peace will comprise Trump, Tony Blair and Netanyahu. Are those the right men to sort out the Middle East? Welcome to the News Agents.

1:19Emily Maitlis:The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. And as things stand, we're waiting for Hamas to pronounce on whether they're going to accept this 20 point plan that was unveiled at the White House that involved Tony Blair and Steve Wyckoff and Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, in drafting this proposal, which has got the support of the Gulf Arab nations and has got the support of the Turks. and there is considerable pressure being applied to Hamas to accept this peace deal, which will see an immediate cessation of the war, the return of all the remaining living hostages and the bodies of those that Hamas still have to Israel.

2:00Emily Maitlis:And then the dismantling, essentially, of Hamas to an organisation that will take over the running of the Gaza Strip, totally devoid of Hamas. it is in essence demanding Hamas's surrender. Yeah, and I guess this goes back about a month or so ago when there was that big meeting, Jared Kushner and Tony Blair in the White House. Do you remember there were all these sort of questions about what had come of it and why was Tony Blair there and was he part of it, was he central to it, did he have a role in all that? And just on Monday we finally got the beginning of the answer to that when Trump unveiled that the White House had convinced the Israeli Prime Minister to accept a plan to end this offensive in Gaza, the appalling offensive that's been going on way too long in Gaza.

2:48Emily Maitlis:And this comes at the end of a week, the UN General Assembly, which saw Netanyahu try and address delegates in the UN and see that most of the people in the audience turned their backs on him. They walked out as he was speaking. and I don't know whether this has sort of brought things to a head that Trump has decided he just needs to get on with it. So essentially he's got Wyckoff who is the real estate mogul that now works as the peace envoy. He sort of flits between Russia and Ukraine not really doing anything and then sort of Israel and Palestine not really doing anything but they've got to a point now where they think there is some kind of framework and Wyckoff has been trying to nail down the details and Jared Kushner has been going out and meeting with Arab leaders.

3:40Emily Maitlis:They've understood that what they really need to do is bring in Arab states in the wider region along with Israel. But as you say, we don't know what Hamas is going to do. What they've indicated so far is that they are likely to reject the peace plan because they say it serves Israel's interests. The sticking point for them is this demand that they give up all the hostages in one go, which they think then gives them no more bargaining chips. And the point is that Hamas has been completely kept out of this. So it's like, you know, the obvious parallel is to draw a parallel with what happened in Northern Ireland and say, right, we're going to have a peace deal and bring peace to Northern Ireland.

4:19Emily Maitlis:But we're not going to talk to the Republicans about it. And some are saying, well, that's what you've done here in the Middle East context by not talking to Hamas, which do control the levers of power that are left in Gaza. And they have been ruling over Gaza. It's interesting that the Palestinian Authority have signed up to it because, of course, that would put them back into Gaza from where they were kicked out when Hamas took control. I think the interesting thing is you talk about the sort of relationship between Trump and Netanyahu and Wyckoff and going off to talk to Putin as well. I think there's a real parallel between the way that Putin plays Trump and the way that Netanyahu plays Trump.

4:59Emily Maitlis:Very well. Very, very well. So Putin looks like he's agreeing. He's nodding his head. He's saying all the right things. And then he goes out and bombs the hell out of Ukraine. that night, as soon as he's out. And what Netanyahu has arguably achieved with this plan is to make it a plan that is entirely in Israel's favour, that doesn't compel IDF forces to leave immediately, but when Israel sees fit. So there's enormous wiggle room there. And the key point is, Trump has said, Hamas, you accept this, or I give Netanyahu carte blanche to do what the hell he likes in Gaza. I bet you Netanyahu knew all along there was no way Hamas was going to accept this.

5:43Emily Maitlis:So Netanyahu carries on with his destruction of Hamas, but also the destruction of the Gaza Strip. There is no way that Trump will ever cross Netanyahu. There is no way he will ever upset Netanyahu because Trump's base, and I mean by that his the religious base that shouldn't even really be big MAGA fans, are so committed to the ideal, not just the idea, but the ideal of Israel, that they are backing Trump with their support, that he simply cannot anger those people by going against any incarnation of Israel that the rest of the world may be feeling. The one thing, though, that, of course, that Trump did do was force Netanyahu to get on the phone to the Qataris and apologise and say, I'm really sorry, I'm really sorry we sent those missiles to try and take out the handouts.

6:36Emily Maitlis:He's got that£400 million jet coming his way. And the White House releases a photo of Netanyahu on the phone. I'm really sorry, I've been very naughty. I will not do it. I'll write a hundred times, I must not bomb Qatar again. Yeah, which I guess brings us on to the question of Tony Blair, which I think for many of our listeners will be the most curious part of this whole project, jigsaw, whatever. Blair has been working on his own vision for a post-war Gaza for many months, maybe a year. And the reporting is that he tried to get this through Biden. Biden wasn't particularly interested, but he gets on better with Trump.

7:14Emily Maitlis:He gets on well with Jared Kushner. And so suddenly he was sort of back at the White House, maybe once again sort of being seen as a player. and the idea is that Gaza would be run by an international trusteeship. So in other words, they would kind of use business contacts with the Gulf leaders. The whole point of the Abraham Accords was trying to find an economic way of bringing Israel and Arab states close together through trade, you know, and saying that's the way we get peace. And similarly, this is, you know, the Peace to Prosperity Plan, which is now hopefully, or he says, being applied to the Palestinians.

7:53Emily Maitlis:And I guess that is where it becomes a little bit harder to swallow, because if you had to pick one man in the world who does not have a great reputation for bringing peace to the Middle East, it would have to be Tony Blair. Now, I think of all the things that you can say Blair did well in his time as prime minister. You know, he gets a tick for Sure Start. He gets a tick for education. He gets a tick for the economy. He gets a tick for trying to bring Britain into the 21st century. But Iraq, the biggest stain on his entire legacy. And I don't think you have to be a psychotherapist to work out this is as much as anything about Blair's legacy, that the stain of Iraq on his legacy is somewhere in his perhaps deep subconscious or maybe much closer to the surface what is spurring him on to say, please let me be remembered for bringing peace to Palestine and Israel rather than everything that happened in Iraq.

8:58Emily Maitlis:I mean, you can hear it from Susie Orbach rather than me on the psychiatrist's couch, but it seems to be pretty darn obvious that in a normal world, it would not be Tony Blair that was at the centre of a Middle Eastern peace process. Look, Tony Blair is a phenomenal politician, one of the most gifted politicians of our age. But you're absolutely right that, you know, if you buy into the theory that a politician is only remembered for one thing, you know, Thatcher, maybe it would be the miners' strike or the Falklands War. Bill Clinton, maybe it's Monica Lewinsky, even though he was two terms president.

9:34Emily Maitlis:What would Tony Blair be remembered for? Possibly the Iraq war. And ever since he stopped being prime minister, he has maintained this interest in the Middle East. And he, you know, for years he toiled. I went and did a film with him in 2010 or 2011. I saw the BBC using the footage a couple of nights ago. I went and did a film with him in the West Bank and Gaza of him trying to kind of bring everyone together and trying to get the stars to align so that you could get a peace deal. So this was when Blair was the chair of the Quartet Group, which was this funny body, which was the UN, the EU, Russia and the US.

10:11Emily Maitlis:And he was the representative living in Jerusalem, living in the American colony hotel, more or less in East Jerusalem and going out and trying to meet Arab leaders. And that was also about economic regeneration. And Blair has also maintained close relationships with the Gulf nations for a long time and sees this as the way they apply pressure. and that will bring peace to the Middle East. So it's not just 2003 and the invasion of Iraq and it's appalling aftermath. I think he has had a long-term commitment to this. And the amazing thing is his durability and maybe his messianic sense of self, that he thinks he can do this.

10:50Emily Maitlis:And Donald Trump believes it. And Jared Kushner believes it. And he has got the Gulf nations on board. So you've got to this point where you've got nearly everyone agreeing to it. But if you're Hamas, what do you get out of it? I also want to know what our own government now made of this because... That's a fascinating one. Right? Because, I mean, up to this point, we also heard that there was a movement by the UK and France to try and initiate some kind of peace project. You've got the UK and France and others having just recognised Palestine, right? We can now, as a country, call it Palestine rather than, you know, the occupied territories or the Palestinian territories or the Palestinians living in Gaza or whatever.

11:33Emily Maitlis:We are now as a country recognising Palestine. And yet this whole initiative centred from and around Netanyahu and the White House will have come, I think, as quite a surprise to Macron, to, you know, Carney, to Starmer, to the people who've actually just gone out of their way to say, right, this is about sanctioning Israel. First and foremost, we do not like what we have seen. We do not like the behaviour that we have seen and lived through for the past 18 months. Look, I thought it was kind of interesting. And maybe this is a micro point and is not worthy of kind of raising. But yesterday in his speech, Starmer said, you know, we support the plan for peace in Gaza.

12:19Emily Maitlis:He didn't mention Tony Blair anywhere in this. And I remember speaking to a foreign office official when it first came out, as you were saying, Emily, a month or so ago, when Blair was sort of washes up in the White House and them saying we didn't know a bloody thing about it. So there you have Tony Blair sort of seemingly kind of, I don't know, freelancing is not the right word, but, you know, working with Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff and Trump over this. And the British National Security Advisor is Jonathan Powell, who was Tony Blair's chief of staff when he was prime minister. I tell you what I did know, though.

12:52Emily Maitlis:On Monday morning, when people were saying, oh is this just another meeting of Trump and Netanyahu with no significance to it I met someone from Downing Street for breakfast and they said no no no this is going to be big this is going to be a big announcement there is huge amount of weight behind it so I think that a lot of the nations that were kind of stakeholders or involved in this had been brought in they must have been brought in over the weekend to be told look this is big it's going to unfold today they're going to unveil this plan and we've got an awful lot of backing for it so you've got the position of Tony Blair but you've also got the position of the Gulf nations and Turkey about how much pressure they're applying on Hamas.

13:29Emily Maitlis:I just sense this incredible weariness with the ghastliness of Gaza that everyone recognises that there can be no future for Hamas and trying to convince Hamas to get the hell out of the way. But why would Hamas do it? OK, well, one of the most incisive bits of reporting actually comes from Bloomberg on this, where they report that a cabinet minister has warned that having Blair's involvement in the Palestine plan was risky for the government, comparing it to the politically charged appointment of fellow New Labour grandee Peter Mandelson as US ambassador. Similarly required overlooking ethical questions in the hope of steering Trump's foreign policy towards a position that was more favourable than Britain.

14:09Emily Maitlis:And it's not just what he did in Iraq. It's not just how little oversight that action had when it was taken back in 2003. It's also about questions of money and business interests and commercial interests, which we know is water off a duck's back for Trump, but actually isn't at the moment for our politicians. It's totally different though, isn't it? It's totally different because... Yeah, but you're sitting there in Cabinet going, why on earth are we about to wave this through? Why on earth? How do we get... But it's nothing to do with the British Cabinet. There is no British Cabinet involvement in Tony Blair playing a role in Gaza.

14:44Emily Maitlis:This is Tony Blair actually independent. Well, at some point, Starmer's got to work out all his responses, you know. So didn't mention Blair in his statement on Monday, talked about the peace plan, endorses that. I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe we've just got a place where it's like just somebody do something. Like, just do it. Just stop starving Palestinians and we can work backwards from there. Maybe that is the only thing that they care about. But I don't think it is uncomplicated for Starmer right now. Oh, I think it is. I think the thing with Peter Mandelson was that was Keir Starmer's appointment, his direct appointment of Peter Mandleton to be our ambassador in Washington.

15:20Emily Maitlis:And, you know, it happening too quickly, too soon on bad advice. And it's blown up with Tony Blair. Tony Blair has nothing to do with Keir Starmer anymore. He's not, you know, if there was a scandal that emerged over money and I don't know, whatever to, you know, hard to imagine. Well, Tony Blair has been out of office for is nothing to do with Keir Starmer now. It may reflect badly on Britain. And Keir Starmer has no political capital invested in Tony Blair. In a moment, we're going to be hearing from the Australian playwright Susie Miller. Her latest film, her latest play is called Interaglia.

15:54Emily Maitlis:It stars Rosamund Pike as a judge whose son is accused of sexual assault. And it's how that conundrum, that ethical morality dilemma, is about to bring the whole family crashing to the ground.

16:12Emily Maitlis:News you can trust and the conversations that matter. With award-winning journalists at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff. Discover how today's story affects your life. Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app.

16:33Suzie Miller:LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

16:40Emily Maitlis:The News Agents What joining us now is Susie Miller. She's fabulous. She's a playwright who comes to writing from being a lawyer, from the legal profession. And you may have seen Interaglia, which has been at the National. If not, it's now on as a film. You can catch it in the theatres. And you may have seen prima facie, which is your first incarnation, each time we get the two words of Latin. And these really gritty subjects where the legal profession just rubs up, crashes into real life. Susie.

17:20Suzie Miller:That's the aim anyway. That is the aim.

17:22Emily Maitlis:And interaglia is the story of a judge, a female judge, an alpha. I mean, she's brilliant at everything, isn't she? She's great. She can judge, she can cook, she can have sex in her own kitchen with her husband. And then suddenly she has a domestic crisis in her life. And it sort of hits you in the face.

17:43Suzie Miller:You know, I loved writing that character because aside from her domestic crisis and aside from what she has to grapple with that comes up in the play, I realised as I was writing it that I'd never myself seen before a woman juggling everything on stage. Like often they're the girlfriend or the wife or if they've got a career, that's all they talk about. And I thought, actually, the way women really run their lives is their career, their domestic life, their home life, their relationship. Everything kind of, I guess, leans on the other. They don't sort of compartmentalize it because they can't.

18:18It's almost like there's so many urgent calls or things that need to be done in the gaps of their life while they're at work.

18:24Suzie Miller:I mean, how many women do you know that will have to dash out to Tesco's or to Waitrose while you're at work? in the sort of five-minute coffee break while everyone else is sitting around having coffee.

18:34Emily Maitlis:And just reading the Kamala Harris book where she describes getting the phone call from Joe Biden as she's in the middle of cooking pancakes for her nieces and the husband's like a million miles away. Exactly.

18:45Suzie Miller:But I feel like, you know, we all did it and we never thought of it as being unusual. We just thought that's what we have to get done. And then, you know, when I was writing this character, it suddenly occurred to me that her life was so different to, I guess, the life my husband led. And he's a judge, so I was comparing it to that. thinking, well, he didn't have to do all these things while he was being a judge. He would go to work and come home. But, you know, when I was working as a lawyer, I was the one that would get the calls during the day that there's been an accident or someone needs to come home because they're sick or even just the things of where's my shirt.

19:15Suzie Miller:And I think that what really struck me when I wrote the play and then when Rosamund portrayed Jessica Parks, that very first scene where she's running a trial as a judge and she sees eight missed calls on her phone underneath her sort of bench there. and, you know, she realised she's got eight missed calls from one of her children or her child. She's only got one child. And she thinks, oh, better with Jenna find out what that's about. And then she does that. And, you know, the crisis is he can't find his shirt.

19:42Emily Maitlis:He's going to a party and he needs the shirt ironed.

19:45Suzie Miller:But the amount of women that laugh at that line made me go, oh, this is really common. Like half the audience, or probably 62 % of the audience really, are all laughing because they've all had that call. And the Rosamund you mentioned is Rosamund Pike. Rosamund Pike, who is the star of the show.

20:00Emily Maitlis:Phenomenal. She is phenomenal. And it feels like essentially a one-woman show, but with two other players.

20:05Suzie Miller:Yeah, and the two other players are her family. And I think that the reason I did it that way compared to Prima Facey was that when she's at work, she can control the narrative. She can control her court. She can tell people when to stop talking, when to start talking. She can list the case as she needs be. But when she's at home, she can't control the narrative. She has to run with it because the narrative is lived out by her husband and her son as well as herself. and it's life, real life.

20:30Emily Maitlis:So the eight missed calls is a moment of, like, such a relatable levity. You know, I've just stopped my professional life, I've put my professional life on hold because my son's lost his shirt. But the next time that happens, it's for real. And we should, I mean, let the audience in a little bit. Sure. It is a moment when her son is accused of rape. Yeah. And she has to confront this as a mother first and as a judge second.