In short
The episode debates whether Donald Trump’s rhetoric and immigration/border policies are deterring international fans from traveling to the 2026 World Cup. It cites claims of declining US tourism: America down 5.5% in international visitors last year, about $8 billion less spending; Canada down 21%; Germany down 11.3%. It argues “chill effects” include higher fuel/air costs, “price gouging,” ICE patrols, and a visa program warning some travelers their last five years of social media could be reviewed at the border. Notable example: J.D. Vance’s “welcome… but when the time is up, they’ll have to go home” World Cup comments.
Guests
Nick Adams, newly appointed US tourism ambassador/special envoy (Australian-born). Background: he claims access to tourism/aviation data and says social media checks are not increased under Trump vs Biden/Obama.
Key claims
he denies America is unsafe/expensive/unwelcoming and says perceptions are wrong; he says the World Cup is rebounding. The episode also includes an interview excerpt with Sarah Wynne-Williams (former Facebook employee; memoir Careless People) about alleged Meta malpractice and Myanmar genocide-related harms.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOImpact of Trump's Image on Tourism
1:39 to 2:15
Exploring how Trump's rhetoric may deter international visitors.
“And it's lovely to be back from Australia.”
Statistics on Declining Visitor Numbers
2:15 to 3:22
Analysis of declining tourism and its potential causes.
“And it's partly the effect of rising fuel costs.”
Concerns Over Travel to the US
3:22 to 4:52
Discussion on the perceived unwelcomeness of the US for international visitors.
“Germany, also a big drop, decline of 11.3%.”
The Message of Welcome and Security
4:52 to 7:48
Debating whether the US's security measures discourage visitors.
“There is now an actual visa programme that the US brought in last December, which includes 42 countries where they have warned citizens that they may be asked about the last five years of their social media posts.”
Interview with the Tourism Ambassador
7:48 to 9:15
Interviewing Nick Adams about strategies to promote US tourism.
“Well, let us speak now to Nick Adams, the tourism ambassador, newly appointed special envoy to encourage tourism to America, who is himself actually Australian born.”
Response to Tourism Challenges
9:15 to 13:25
Nick Adams discusses challenges and perceptions affecting US tourism.
“And I suspect that some of that dip, at minimum, can be attributed to the fact that people around the world knew that 2026 was going to be America's year.”
Hotel Pricing and World Cup Attendance
14:00 to 16:40
Discussing the implications of hotel price cuts on World Cup attendance.
“You can go through every country if you like and that's no problem.”
Political Climate and Tourism
16:40 to 19:40
Examining how Trump's political messages may impact international tourism.
“You're talking to the number one fan of the President of the United States.”
Perceptions of Safety in America
19:40 to 22:40
Debating the perceived risks of visiting America under current political leadership.
“We were in Minnesota at the beginning of the year.”
Advocating for American Tourism
22:40 to 25:35
A strong defense of America's appeal as a tourist destination despite controversies.
“on them or a driver's license, they were being detained?”
Show all 15 chapters
Advocating for American Tourism
25:40 to 25:51
A strong defense of America's appeal as a tourist destination despite controversies.
“Because once you see the difference, you're not going back.”
Censorship and the Facebook Whistleblower
25:51 to 28:01
Discussing the implications of a gag order on a whistleblower's revelations about Facebook.
“And about a year ago, in fact, of March of last year, I interviewed Sarah in what was her first ever broadcast interview.”
Exploring Meta's Internal Culture and Consequences
28:01 to 35:35
Learn about the internal culture at Meta and its real-world implications, particularly in Myanmar.
“It doesn't sound like Mark Zuckerberg is careless, it starts to sound like you think he's dangerous.”
Exploring Meta's Internal Culture and Consequences
35:36 to 36:53
Learn about the internal culture at Meta and its real-world implications, particularly in Myanmar.
“Wynne-Williams gave us here on the News Agents last year.”
Upcoming Political Developments and Document Leaks
37:07 to 39:02
Get insights into upcoming political document releases regarding Peter Mandelson and potential implications.
“the latest slew of documents about Peter Mandelson, his appointment as ambassador, will have come out.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Thumbtack presents Uncertainty Strikes. I was surrounded. The aisle and the options were closing in. There were paint rollers, satin and matte finish, angle brushes and natural bristles. There were too many choices. What if I never got my living room painted? What if I couldn't figure out what type of paint to use? What if... I just used Thumbtack. I can hire a top-rated pro that knows everything about interior paint, easily compare prices and read reviews. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today.
0:32Jon Sopel:This is a Global Player original podcast. Donald Trump is not a great export for America and tourism. You're talking to the number one fan of the President of the United States. The number of instances where people's social media have been checked is absolutely no different whatsoever under Joe Biden, under Trump One or under President Obama. Of course, everybody is welcome to come and see this incredible event. I know we'll have visitors probably from close to 100 countries. We want them to come. We want them to celebrate. We want them to watch the game. But when the time is up, they'll have to go home.
1:08Otherwise, they'll have to talk to Secretary Nell.
1:10Jon Sopel:That is J.D. Vance a year ago, sort of welcoming people to America for the World Cup, which starts in just 10 days time. But has that message about just get the hell out when it's over had a chill effect? America has suffered an£8 billion decrease on tourism spending in the last year. Is this a referendum by the world on Donald Trump? Welcome to The News Agents.
1:45Jon Sopel:The News Agents. It's John. It's Maitlis. Welcome back. Thank you very much. And it's lovely to be back from Australia. But let us talk about America, the World Cup, tourism numbers in a moment. We're going to be speaking to Donald Trump's newly appointed ambassador for tourism, the special envoy who will be drumming up business for the US of A, which is quite a difficult job right now, given that the World Cup is just 10 days away and people seem to be staying away. And it's partly the effect of rising fuel costs. The price of air tickets have gone up. Why? Well, maybe the Iran war has something to do with it.
2:25Jon Sopel:You're also seeing incredible price gouging going on where people are being charged extortionate sums of money. That's also having an effect. So greed is playing a role in it as well. Also, you've got ice officers patrolling cities. If you're brown or black and you're from Latin America or from Africa, which Donald Trump once referred to as the shithole countries. do you really want to go to the US right now and face the possibility that you might have to produce your passport? So all of these factors are having a chill effect, which means that stadiums are not going to be full, but for a very few matches.
3:02That chill effect is not just a vibes thing. It's borne out by the numbers. America was the only major country to report a decline in international visitors last year. Visitors from Canada, you'll be shocked to hear. Traditionally, one of the largest pipelines of foreign tourism plummeted by 21%. Why would that be? Germany, also a big drop, decline of 11.3%. Just a couple of weeks ago, a story that might have passed us by was Frederick Mertz, the actual Chancellor of Germany, saying he wouldn't want his children to be studying or living or working in the US. Now, maybe the German chancellor had a particular beef with an American president who had started to pull some of his troops out of the country.
3:52That might be a very personal thing. But clearly the numbers are telling a story in their own right. We know that tourism to America was down by 5.5 percent last year. That is a drop in actual spending terms of around eight billion dollars. So something is not working right now. Something is not going well. And in a World Cup year, the question you should be asking is, how much over and above normal tourism are we going to see? How much more money is America going to be making? What will the boost be to spending, to numbers, to ticket sales, all the rest of it? Which is what makes us so odd, because 80 % of the hotels in US host cities are saying they're just not getting the bookings.
4:42They had anticipated they were preparing for them and those bookings are not coming in for all the questions you raise. Is it about greed? Is it about fear? There is now an actual visa programme that the US brought in last December, which includes 42 countries where they have warned citizens that they may be asked about the last five years of their social media posts. Imagine if you're thinking of going to the World Cup and you think, oh, I wonder if I just have to scratch my phone of everything I might have put on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, whatever, in the last five years, because I don't really want to be rounded up once I land.
5:30Jon Sopel:Well, the Germans issued a specific travel advisory on that, warning their citizens that if they go to the United States, their social media history could be examined when they get to the border. And who wants to fly into JFK Airport, meet a border force person who says, let me see that. I'm sorry, you're not coming in. You're on the next flight back home. And so I think that it has had an effect on people thinking, am I really welcome here? Because the one thing you want to do, you know, why would you go to a country where they're trying? You feel unwelcome. And I think that so much of the language of Donald Trump, you know, he was trying to create an atmosphere where he doesn't want illegal immigrants to go.
6:11Jon Sopel:And he only wants the right sort of migrants to be coming into the country or the right sort of visitors to be coming into the country. And here you have a World Cup where people are coming from all over the world, from a lot of countries that Donald Trump probably doesn't care very much about. And I think that an awful lot of people are thinking, you know what, I don't want to go to America right now. Further to your point, I know people, professionals, highly qualified, who take in burner phones now to America. They do not take their smartphone with them where they have to hand it over, unlock it.
6:43Jon Sopel:And so that some border force person can decide whether they like what they see or not. And so they take in a kind of ordinary, cheap Nokia phone because they think life will be a lot easier like that. And they won't have to answer those sort of questions. Look, there is 10 days to play for, as they say, right? There is every chance that the hotel prices are going to be slashed, that they're going to offer more tickets for sale, that it's going to be easier to get hold of the games that you really want to go to and that there will be an amazing, tremendous World Cup. We all hope that that happens.
7:15But the fact that this story, these numbers have preceded the World Cup. These are figures coming out of the last year. Four million visitors, fewer in 2025 seems to suggest it is not just about the greed of the World Cup. It is not just about the warnings that they've issued in the last two weeks. It is about something which is potentially more profound. And I guess the question that we're trying to ask really is, is the Donald Trump effect putting people off America?
7:48Jon Sopel:Well, let us speak now to Nick Adams, the tourism ambassador, newly appointed special envoy to encourage tourism to America, who is himself actually Australian born. Nick, welcome to the News Agent Studio. The fact that you're with us here 10 days before the start of the World Cup suggests that things aren't going that well. Emily, I would have come earlier if you'd invited me. Look, I'm here because of the World Cup, but not for any sinister reason. I'm here because there is a little window that I've got at the last moment to push through and make sure that we maximise our attendance at the World Cup.
8:29We're doing really well. All of the data that is coming across my desk suggests that we are experiencing a rebound, an uptick, whether it's data from Sirium, the aviation data analysts, whether it's the World Travel and Tourism Council. And I'd be happy to get into all of that. But we're looking good. We're very excited. It's going to be spectacular. You're the only major country to report decline in visitors in the last year. The only major country. But it's changing. Yeah, but that's not a great place to start from in a World Cup year. Well, first of all, it's last year. It's not this year. And the World Cup's this year.
9:10But there's no doubt, Emily, you're quite right. There was a dip last year. But it's a dip. And I suspect that some of that dip, at minimum, can be attributed to the fact that people around the world knew that 2026 was going to be America's year. Nice try.
9:29Jon Sopel:Good spin. I'm telling you. You don't think it's anything to do with the fact that maybe people find America a less than welcoming place right now. When you could, when you arrive at the border, have your social media handles looked at and all of those things. The German foreign ministry issuing travel advisories to their citizens saying this could happen when you go to America right now. Doesn't make it feel like America really wants you that much. Well, John, let me tell you, if you really want to know what coming to the United States as a tourist is like now, my advice to anybody listening would be to go and speak to their neighbours, to their friends, to their colleagues at work that have recently visited.
10:14Because you're quite right. There are some perceptions that are out there that are totally and utterly wrong. America is not unsafe. America is not expensive. America is not unwelcoming. The American people are not inhospitable. Social media is not an issue for 99.9 % of people traveling to the US. no policy has been implemented to check people's social media. I have spoken with the Department of Homeland Security and all of the agencies, and they assure me that the number of instances where people's social media have been checked since the beginning of the Trump administration from January 20, 2025, is absolutely no different whatsoever to how many people had their social media checked under Joe Biden, under Trump one or under President Obama.
11:12Jon Sopel:OK, well, Ambassador, let me just pause you there for a minute because I want to play you a clip of the vice president, J.D. Vance, talking last summer about the World Cup. Of course, everybody is welcome to come and see this incredible event. I know we'll have visitors probably from close to 100 countries. We want them to come. We want them to celebrate. We want them to watch the game. But when the time is up, they'll have to go home. Otherwise, they'll have to talk to Secretary Noem. So that was the Homeland Security Secretary. You can come to the World Cup, but sod off once it's over. John, I think he was having a bit of a joke.
11:45You can tell at the end. And we obviously don't want people... Do you like that message? You don't want people to break the law either. No, but do you like that message? It doesn't make it sound you're that welcome. Well, look, my message would be come to the United States, have a great time, make memories that last you a lifetime, Take them home with you. And that's it. And that's really what he said. It was the Homeland Security Secretary who was pictured in the El Salvador jail. I mean, at the time she was wearing, I think, a$50 ,000 watch. She was pictured in the El Salvador jail. Is it helpful when the vice president of the country that you're trying to promote sends out a message like that, that our immigration officials are going to deal with you.
12:35Is that helpful? Emily, look, respectfully, I like both of you. We've only known each other for a few minutes, but I think you're taking this a little too seriously. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with what the Vice President said. He was using a little bit of humour. I think that the United States can protect its borders while at the same time opening its doors. And we've proved that with the global entry programme. Except that your numbers have massively dropped. So it's fine that he says it with a sense of humour. Great. I love the idea that J.D. Vance has suddenly conjured up a sense of humour.
13:10But it's having a real-time effect. And it's having an effect on America's business, on its tourism, on the$8 billion that should have come in last year that were down. It's having an effect on 4 million tourists that should have come last year that were down. So it's not just a joke, is it? Emily, I've acknowledged to you that there was a dip last year. I've also told you that all the data seems to suggest that that's over, that we are doing really well. Can I just ask you about that? Because Canada, specifically down 21%, do you think they were just waiting? Do you think they were just waiting or do you think they were slightly offended by what Donald Trump said about invading them?
13:50Like I told you, I think a lot of people were thinking, do I go in 2025 or do I go in 2026 when... Denmark is down 20%. Do you think the Danes were just waiting for this year or do you think they might have been offended by the remarks about Greenland? I mean, I'm just asking. I appreciate it. You can go through every country if you like and that's no problem. My answer is always going to be... Take those off. Take those off.
14:12Jon Sopel:Well, let me ask you another question then. Why are hotels slashing the prices for rooms? And I'm going to the World Cup. Oh, good. So I have to tell me which games. Well, I'll tell you afterwards. Well, I'm not. I'm actually going to a game in Mexico City, so I'm not going to the US. But the hotel prices are being slashed because people are not coming. People have not been making the bookings. Stadiums are not sold out, but for a very few games, even for the US games, they're not sold out. I have to push back against that strongly. That is not the reality. That is what is being reported. I can tell you I'm talking to hotel people all the time.
14:48The hotel rooms, the overnights are going up. You know that when it comes to a mega event like a World Cup, like the FIFA World Cup, there will always be 11th hour last minute tickets.
15:02Jon Sopel:Sure. But I'm telling you that hotels that I've looked at for genuinely for myself and my son, those prices have come down. They have been a fraction of what they were a few months ago. Now, that says to me one of two things. One is that the hotels have made so much money, they're just feeling philanthropic right now, or the hotels are empty and they're desperate to fill them up. Look, again, all I can share with you is that the data that I get, and I'm in the very fortunate position to have access to some data that the rest of the world doesn't. I can tell you that we're very pleased with where we're at.
15:42I can tell you that this World Cup is going to be hugely successful. and I'm looking forward to welcoming you in person. Will you clear up a couple of things for us? Is Iran... If I can. Are Iranians allowed in? Well, I don't know what the latest is on that. I know they were basing themselves out of Mexico and that's all I know at this time. Because one of the big games is in California, right? And I think it's one of the best-sealed games. Iran, New Zealand is in California but we don't actually know if the Iranians are allowed in to watch it. I'll take that question on notice and I'll let you know because I can't answer you right now.
16:15Fair enough. But do you not feel weird, like as the tourism czar, as the ambassador, with Trump's message coming out and saying, yeah, we just don't know who's allowed into the country right now or not? No, not really. Look, I mean, these things are fluid. There are political realities. There's all kinds of things happening in the world. The broader message is... Was that helpful, the Iran war? The broader message is that we want the world to know that they are welcome to come and celebrate with us. we want them to know that the 50 states are like 50 different countries there's a hundred reasons to visit each and every single one of them we have unmatched landscapes we have everything for everybody no matter what cranks your tractor no matter what floats your boat i guarantee you the united states of america has got it and i'm sure both of you have been and both of you can attest
17:03Jon Sopel:to that no i i think the national parks of america are absolutely fantastic i lived in america for eight years I'm you know fully signed up to all of that but I'm just saying to you that I think that around the world Donald Trump is not a great export for America and tourism because you know I mean you I I can't help but notice your accent doesn't sound that American to me it sounds rather more Australian I mean you know Donald Trump intervenes in the Australian election and the reverse happens of what he wants people are slightly put off by him don't you accept that You must see that by what happened with the fact that Albanese got re-elected in Australia when it looked like it was a shoo-in for Dutton.
17:45You're talking to the number one fan of the President of the United States. I have been with him since the 16th of June 2015 when he came down the escalator with his beautiful wife Melania. I've never left his side. I get him. I understand him. I like him. He has given me this role. He wants me to showcase the best of America. That's what I'm trying to do. Nick, with respect, a good friend would say, Trump, you're not helping yourself. Because this is starting to feel like a referendum by the world on what the world thinks of Donald Trump, right? Emily, I reject the premise of your question. And far be it from me to question or...
18:34Listen, question away. I'm just saying there are things that the president could do, presumably, which would make your job easier in terms of selling America to the rest of the world. He has been a great leader for the United States of America. He's threatened Canada. He's been resilient. He's threatened Greenland. He's threatened Germany. Emily, just give me a mark. He's invaded Iran. I want you to kind of remove the politics out of it and look at the individual. How? How? How? If you listen to me, you might have a chance. This is a man that is resilient. This is a man that is courageous. This is a man that has had multiple assassination attempts on his life.
19:08He's put ice agents on the streets of his cities. He's seen people taken off, deported to detention centres without any trial, any justification. He's scared people into coming to your country, not your country, but America. No, it is my country. I'm so sorry. I apologise in that case. I'm sorry. The accents confuse me. Why should the accent? You don't have British... There's not people in Britain that have different accents? I'd probably make that mistake as well. I'm sorry. So he has showed people what can happen to them if they are brown skinned, if they are a Latino, if they don't have their documentation on you at the exact moment when the ICE agents appear on the streets in front of them.
19:52You know this has gone on. You've seen what's happened. We were in Minnesota at the beginning of the year. You've watched a man who has made it very clear what his feelings are towards immigration migrants. Emily, you don't know the man. I do know the man. I can tell you that he's a great man. I can tell you that he's all about putting the American people first. He's about protecting our borders. But he doesn't have to convince you. Sorry, he doesn't have to convince you. He has to convince everyone who's like me who doesn't know him. But most importantly, most importantly, he cares so much about the things that you're saying that he doesn't, that he's appointed me to go and invite the world to come and celebrate.
20:34Sure, Nick.
20:35Jon Sopel:To increase international visitors. I totally understand what you've just said about, you know, he's there for America first. That's fine. That's great for the internal audience of the United States, of those who want to support him. And they supported him decisively in the 2024 election. No doubt about that, the American people voted for him. But in terms of his attitudes towards the rest of the world, I mean, in the first time, there was the famous occasion when he called Africa the shithole countries. I mean, if you're African, maybe you don't think I want to go to a country where the president thinks I come from a shithole.
21:06Jon Sopel:At the end of the day, it's up to. Just answer that specifically. But there's nothing to answer. I mean, at the end of the day, it's up to people all around the world to decide where they want to visit for recreation. And they are doing. But let me just tell you, first of all, America is the biggest tourism industry in the world, the biggest tourism sector. Now, tourism is not the United States' biggest sector, but the United States' tourism sector is the world's biggest tourism sector. Internally. Internally. That's a lot of people travelling within America because it's a fantastic country. But we also have an amazing amount of international visitors.
21:43But I just want to make this point. Tourism and travel is about fun. It's where you take the political blinkers off and you decide to go and explore. You decide to go and nourish your soul. But it's not about fun if you think you might get arrested or deported or sent to El Salvador. That's not going to happen. I've told you that. And that's just not true. These are things that you're repeating ad nauseum. No, it's not about whether it happens or not. It's whether people fear that. But maybe. But that perception has been developed by people that have sought to injure the American economy. Like the ICE agents.
22:21Right at the 250th birthday.
22:23Jon Sopel:Well, just ask, let me ask you this question then. Do you think that the pictures we saw of ICE agents randomly rounding up people in Minneapolis at the beginning of the year and they were just being arrested because if they were brown and they didn't have a passport on them or a driver's license, they were being detained? Citizens shot on their own streets. I mean, the guy who was in charge of this operation has now been fired. But don't you accept that if you're there selling tourism, that makes it a bloody site more difficult? I have the best job in the world because America can sell itself.
23:00That's a swerve. Come on, Nick. No, it's not. You and I have seen it. That's a swerve. You're not answering the question. I am the least politician type person you've had on this show, I can guarantee you. I call it how it is. I'm telling you. What did you think of what happened at Minneapolis? I'm not here to talk about what happened in Minneapolis. No, you just said you're here to call it like it is. Come on, least politician. Yes, yes. Don't burst the blood vessel. Both of you are very excitable today. We're having great work. We're having huge fun, Nick, honestly. I'm the most relaxed person here, I can tell you.
Read the full transcript
23:33But Minneapolis is a place where people should come and visit. They should also come and visit Chicago. They should also come and visit Las Vegas, San Antonio, Miami, Nashville. The United States is a welcoming, hospitable, safe place. That's the reality. And no matter what you might have been convinced of, no matter what you might hear on the television, I am here to tell you, anyone that's been recently to America as a tourist will tell you, it was a divine experience.
24:06Jon Sopel:Nick Adams, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Let's do it again.
24:39Still toast? He's just wasting our time now. The words of two in a growing list of Labour MPs whose patience with the Prime Minister has run dry. Is there anything he said or can say to make you want him to stay? Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app.
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25:50I want to talk to you now about a Facebook whistleblower. Her name is Sarah Wynne-Williams. And about a year ago, in fact, of March of last year, I interviewed Sarah in what was her first ever broadcast interview. What I didn't realise at the time was it would also be the last broadcast interview that she was ever allowed to give. That was in fact ever aired because she brought out a memoir, Careless People. It actually became a bestselling memoir detailing her years working at Facebook and the malpractice that she alleges happened there. shortly after its publication she faced essentially a slap order a gagging order a legal writ which stopped her from ever talking about the book again and so she has essentially fundamentally been silenced and the reason that we're talking about this today
26:51Jon Sopel:is that she was invited to the hay literary festival which has been taking place over the past few days and she took part in a panel discussion where she wasn't allowed to utter a word where she couldn't nod or shake her head in agreement or disagreement such is the extent of the gagging order that has been imposed and the people who organized the hay festival said told the audience that this was going to be uh the case and they said this was an important act of solidarity for the silenced. And her lawyer has come out and said, OK, this is an arbitration ruling, an interim arbitration ruling that was made in California.
27:38Jon Sopel:She is UK based. If you think there is something that is untrue or libelous in this account, sue her. Come and sue us for libel. Because in the UK courts, fact is an absolute defence and they say that everything in her book is absolutely factual, but that hasn't happened. Yeah. Careless People essentially contained allegations about Meta's internal culture, about its decision-making, claims relating to political influence, the company's approach to China, and concerned critically about the well-being of its child users. Meta has disputed the book's claims. But instead of us two sitting here telling you about the things that Sarah Wynne-Williams was writing about in her memoir, Careless People, we thought we would just play to you her voice, her own words, her description of what happened, because we have not been gagged and you can still hear Sarah Wynne-Williams through the newsagents.
28:44It doesn't sound like Mark Zuckerberg is careless, it starts to sound like you think he's dangerous. Do you? I think he's a careless person and I think when you have that amount of power, it matters. I think the way that these products, the way Instagram has infiltrated our lives, the way WhatsApp has infiltrated our lives, we have so much power to shape how we experience the world we're in. And I think the challenge is when you have that much power and when you're surrounded by people who enable it because they derive their wealth and their security from it, I think you just lose touch with what matters.
29:39You lose touch with the real world. and it's until you've experienced it it's very hard to believe I mean I I talk about how he's how he's in a bubble and you think of a bubble as a sort of flimsy transparent but with him it's like a thick opaque fortress like there's just no understanding of how much damage these products can have but also just how the real world operates and yet he's making all these decisions. You talk about real world consequences with Facebook in Myanmar and Burma. And you say, if you're on the internet in Myanmar, Facebook is built into all the phone systems. And you call it lethal carelessness.
30:28Facebook leaders see how Facebook is inflaming tensions, and they do nothing. Virulent hate speech circulating in Myanmar, most target Rohingya Muslim population, and your content operation is based in Dublin, and your complaint button doesn't work, and the translation is all wrong because nobody speaks Burmese, and the guy in Dublin is out to dinner on the wrong time zone when a riot is kind of kicking off. I mean, how much responsibility does Facebook bear for what happened in that terrible period of Burma, of Myanmar's history? So not just me, but the United Nations, who did a really extensive report, decided that Facebook bore a lot of responsibility, that they were directly responsible for inflaming, spreading hate speech and directly leading to the genocide.
31:23But I think what's so challenging with so much of this stuff and partly why I think it's helpful just to see it all in one place is that these aren't necessarily things that the company does. It's the things they don't do. It's the sort of sins of omission where all these bad things are happening. You know, teens are committing suicide after being bullied on the product. You know, there are riots. It could be in many different places around the globe. Myanmar is just one example that have fueled, instigated on the platform. You've got all these sort of bubbles of hatred sort of coming together.
32:04And it's not so much that they do something specific. It's that they do nothing. They know. They know and they do nothing. I suppose you could argue that actually the premise that Facebook set up was we are a platform. We're not editorial. We're not publishers. This is a tool that we're offering to the world. But it's almost impossible to moderate. You know, how do you decide what is peaceful protest? How do you decide what is terrorism versus what is freedom fighting? How I mean, can that ever really be on one man's shoulders or one company's shoulders? Yeah, I don't deny that there's complexity.
32:43I mean, I've lived in the complexity for many, many years. But there are moments that I try and capture throughout these stories where it's not close. If a 13-year-old girl is feeling worthless, don't target her with a beauty ad. If there's a riot going on, make sure you have a way to take down the stuff that is creating the riot that's killing people. I don't think these are things where it's like, kind of a hard decision to do here. Do you think Facebook's responsible for deaths? I think there's a lot of documentation, for example, in that United Nations report that directly attributes it to Facebook.
33:26You say about Burma, Myanmar, every turn when Facebook leaders see how FB is flaming tensions and making Unstable's situation worse, they do nothing. The truth is inescapable. Myanmar would have been far better off than if Facebook had never arrived there. What does far better off mean then? So I was one of the first Facebook employees to visit Burma and Myanmar. And it was just a crazy experience because it's one of the few countries where they didn't have desktop because the country was so sealed off. They went straight from no internet to mobile. So you could see what it would be like Like if our only, you know, in many ways, I think our early experience of the Internet has saved us because this country where everyone went straight to mobile and they had the power to fire off whatever.
34:21No, nothing came down. And when I met these people, they're like, you know, Facebook is the homepage for our country. And that homepage led to the most horrific, horrific genocide. side so i think i think it's one of those things where we as we use it you know either in the uk or or another place around the we experience one version of these products but there's a much worse version out there and without the few you know limits that are in place here it's so much but that gives you some idea of like how the product is designed like if it's in a place where there's nothing to hold it back that's what happened are you prepared for what happens when those at facebook respond to what you've written do you think you'll get sued for this it's a company that believes in freedom of speech so i'm really hoping that they live their values and are you worried look i i really hope that the leaders of the company read the book and see many of our shared experiences and hopefully reflect.
35:33That was just a taste of the interview that Sarah Wynne-Williams gave us here on the News Agents last year. If you want to hear the whole episode, her whole interview, you can find it on that News Agents entire episode. It's called Inside the Murky World of Facebook.
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37:06Jon Sopel:And just before we go, probably by the time you've listened to this, the latest slew of documents about Peter Mandelson, his appointment as ambassador, will have come out. They're not due for another hour as we sit here. So I suspect what's in them, whether it is a further embarrassment for the government, will be something we shall come back to on tomorrow's episode of The Newsagers. We have got quite a big night ahead of us because we're expecting the next drop to run at 1 ,000 pages, which includes 160 pages worth of text messages and WhatsApps. Now, remember, there is no way of certifying if they have all the messages.
37:48so all we're getting are the messages that have been happily openly relinquished and given up to this sort of parliamentary process called the humble address the humble addresses is a sort of basically a process where they they ask everyone who has been part of the messaging kind of apparatus to get in touch and hand over all evidence relating to peter mandelson and that appointment.
38:14Jon Sopel:And also the smart political operatives have disappearing messages activated on WhatsApp. Therefore, they will have long gone into the ether, unobtainable by anyone. And the unsmart ones say they do. Yeah, exactly. But I should imagine that there'll be some red faces around Westminster, some of the things that have been said or asked for or commented on in exchanges with Peter Mandelson when he was in his pomp and at the height of his powers. And I guess we're looking to see if there were any direct messages, communications primarily between the Prime Minister and his future ambassador to Washington.
38:57But we will be bringing you all that, no doubt, tomorrow.
39:00Jon Sopel:We'll see you then. Bye-bye. Bye for now. This has been a Global Player original production.
From the publisher
America is the only major country where visitor numbers fell last year. In fact it had its worst year for international tourism since 2008- barring the pandemic. Are tourists scared? Or has Trump put them off? Is this why Trump's Ambassador for Tourism is on a whistle stop tour of Europe drumming up business before the World Cup? We speak to the US Special Envoy.
Later why was a Facebook whistleblower silenced on stage at Hay Festival? We bring you Sarah Wynn-Williams - full throated and in vision - discussing her book Careless People in her first and last interview.
The News Agents is a Global production.
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/