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Podcast Notes: The News Agents - "Is Trump's Peace Plan Too Good to Be True?"
Episode Overview
- Hosts: Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, Lewis Goodall
- Date: [Insert Date]
- Summary: The episode discusses the recent announcement of a ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas, facilitated by Donald Trump, and examines its implications and viability. The episode also includes an interview with Lucy Powell, a contender for the Labour deputy leadership.
Key Discussion Points
- Ceasefire Agreement in Gaza
- Announcement Details:
- Donald Trump claims to have brokered an initial ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza conflict.
- The plan involves the release of hostages by Hamas and the withdrawal of Israeli troops.
- Celebrations have erupted in both Gaza and Israel, yet concerns remain about the sustainability of this peace.
- Key Elements of the Peace Plan:
- Release of all hostages (both living and deceased).
- Release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners, including those serving life sentences.
- A proposed governance change in Gaza from Hamas to a technocratic committee.
- A focus on rebuilding Gaza and addressing the humanitarian crisis.
- Implications and Skepticism:
- The hosts express cautious optimism about Trump's diplomatic role.
- Historical failure of peace deals raises questions about the plan's longevity.
- Significant destruction and humanitarian issues in Gaza complicate the context of the ceasefire.
- Trump’s Diplomatic Strategy
- Trump’s Unique Approach:
- The hosts analyze how Trump’s unorthodox methods may have shifted the dynamics between Israel and Hamas.
- Trump's willingness to apply pressure on Netanyahu contrasts with Biden's more traditional stance.
- Analysis of Timing:
- The timing coincides with the Nobel Peace Prize deliberations, raising questions about Trump’s motivations.
- The hosts discuss whether Trump’s actions are genuinely aimed at peace or politically motivated.
- Interview with Lucy Powell
- Context of Labour Deputy Leadership Race:
- Lucy Powell discusses her candidacy and outlines the differences between her and her rival, Bridget Philipson.
- Powell emphasizes her commitment to being a voice for Labour party members and communities.
- Key Points from Powell:
- Advocates for a strong representation of broader party voices.
- Rejects the idea that her role would be merely to create dissent within the government.
- Discusses her past experiences within the Labour party and her vision for the future.
- Relations Within the Labour Party
- Internal Dynamics:
- Powell's recent dismissal from Starmer's cabinet raises questions about her future role and influence within Labour.
- The potential for friction between her and Starmer if she is elected as deputy leader.
- Cultural Reset:
- Powell argues for a need to make Labour more inclusive and open, indicating issues of inclusivity under Starmer's leadership.
Key Takeaways
- Plausibility of Trump’s Peace Plan:
- While there are hopeful elements, the historical context and current realities suggest skepticism about its success.
- Political Implications:
- The potential nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize could affect Trump’s actions and motivations.
- Labour Party Dynamics:
- Lucy Powell's candidacy introduces a potential shift in the internal balance of power in the Labour Party, which may complicate Starmer's leadership.
Conclusion The episode highlights significant developments in international diplomacy regarding Israel and Hamas, as well as internal political dynamics within the UK Labour Party. The discussions illustrate the complexities of political negotiations and the continuous evolution of party politics in the UK.
For more insights and updates, listeners are encouraged to visit [The News Agents' website](https://www.thenewsagents.co.uk/).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Lewis Goodall:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:05Daisy Cooper:This is the moment that Donald Trump learns he might be on the cusp of a breakthrough in the Israel-Gaza war. He's been tapped on the shoulder by Marco Rubio so that he can exit his meeting to post his first social media words that will tell the world he thinks he's got peace. They're smart, but they're not smart enough. They define the criminal conspiracy. OK.
0:34Lewis Goodall:I'm just giving a note by the Secretary of State saying that we're very close to a deal in the Middle East and they're going to need me pretty quickly. So I will take a couple of more questions. This is the moment the world has been waiting for, hoping for, for two years. It has sparked celebrations in the Gaza Strip and in Israel itself. It is a first step, but there are still huge questions over what happens to Hamas, who governs Gaza, still to be resolved. But it does look like a step has been taken forward. Welcome to the News Agents.
1:21Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And it was good to wake up to news that real progress had been made and the first part of the peace deal had been agreed between Hamas and the Israeli authorities that should see the release of all hostages, dead and alive, on Monday. also on the other side the release of a number in the thousands of palestinian prisoners including some who were serving life sentences and so you would have to say donald trump hats off to you you seem to have pulled something off this 20 point peace plan that had involved tony blair's in the negotiation the qataris the turks the egyptians and of course the americans has reached something that looks like a deal and it is one hell of an achievement.
2:22Daisy Cooper:So to take you through some of the first steps of what has been agreed, we should see a pullback of Israeli troops in Gaza, an influx of aid into the whole area, which, as you know, is in a massive famine, humanitarian crisis, and then this will lead to calls for Hamas to disarm, to have no role in the governance of Gaza. And under this plan, Hamas, which has basically governed Gaza since 2007, in other words, nearly 20 years, would then be replaced by what they're calling a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee. That would be overseen by a board of peace, kind of supervisory. Donald Trump would call himself chairman.
3:07Daisy Cooper:And we think there is a leadership role there for Tony Blair. And the way the White House is seeing this is that Gaza would be de-radicalised, a terror-free zone that no longer presents a threat to the neighbours and it would be redeveloped for the benefit of people of Gaza. If you're wondering about those earlier plans, which saw Trump deciding on the Riviera of Gaza, completely bereft of any Palestinians at all, that doesn't happen. It is meant to be absolutely clear that no one is forced to leave Gaza. Those who do wish to leave will be free to do so, free to return. But the proposal is offering the people who live there the chance to build a better Gaza.
3:50Daisy Cooper:and there is so much here that is very very febrile and very very delicate that really any discussion of what Palestine looks like what Gaza looks like who controls who rules who organizes who polices seems to come way way down the line but the stuff that we're just trying to get our head around essentially is what happens tonight with the cabinet meeting that Netanyahu who is calling. We know that the two members of the far right in his cabinet have already said that they will vote against it but crucially they're not threatening to leave the government and once they ratify this agreement at 6pm Israel Middle East time then a window, a clock starts on a 72 hour window and in that window they have to see the release first of all of those hostages who are still alive.
4:42Lewis Goodall:I think that the first thing to say with all this is that there's obviously been celebrations in Gaza and in Israel. Worth remembering, of course, that whatever happens now, even if this very, very fragile peace comes into force and if it holds, the destruction in Gaza has been something that we haven't really ever seen before. You know, 90 % of all the homes in Gaza have been destroyed. 60 ,000 Gazans have been killed. It has been a period of unspeakable human tragedy. And of course, the tragedy that we saw on October the 7th as well. But I think that you've got to say that in terms of like the origins of this, we can talk about whether it holds and how substantial it will be but if it does come into force this is a major diplomatic victory for trump yeah a major significant thing and one that across different analysis you'll read today there is a common consensus which is that trump has handled this in a way which is very distinctly him is unique to him and has handled netanyahu in a way that only probably he would the truth is that this deal was sort of basically the deal that Biden presented 12 months ago or whenever it was.
5:41Lewis Goodall:And two things have changed since then. One, Israel has become even more diplomatically isolated. And Trump has used that diplomatic isolation to strong arm Netanyahu to give in. And to basically say, and on the other hand as well, to basically say to Hamas, and I think it's clear that Hamas believed him, that if they did not accept it, that Trump would aid Netanyahu and Israel in destroying whatever was left of them. So Hamas has become weaker. Trump has been willing to be stronger than Biden was in forcing Netanyahu to act in this way. And don't take my word for that. I mean, you know, there was Aaron David Miller of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, who has largely been critical of Trump up to now, has said no president, Republican or Democrat, has ever come down harder on an Israeli prime minister on issues so critically important to his politics or his country's security interests.
6:29Lewis Goodall:And it's clear that when Israel decided to attack the Hamas negotiators in Qatar, that that was a red line or at least it surprised the Trump White House. And Trump went down like a ton of bricks on Netanyahu. And that's partly why we've ended up where we are. I think one of the things that's so important to consider, I agree with absolutely all of that, is the timing in politics is critical. It's not just what is an agreement going to be? What do both sides want? you've got to get the stars in alignment at the same time so that people want to make a peace deal a year ago netanyahu probably didn't want to make a peace deal he wanted to prosecute his war the biden could have gone down hard on him yes but the degree to well that was a failure of biden i think and that biden ultimately was a very pro-israel old-fashioned president in that sense but I don't think he had to leverage them because Israel wasn't as diplomatically isolated as it is today.
7:25Lewis Goodall:There had not been a famine. There had not been the international outrage. Of course, there were humanitarian concerns then but it has become so much worse. And I think, as you say, the Israeli targeting of those Hamas officials in Doha which Netanyahu has been forced to apologise for actually probably served to galvanise. Trump forced him to apologise for it. Trump forced him to apologise when he was in Washington. And Trump said, you're going to sit down, you're going to ring up the Qataris and you're going to say, I'm very sorry. It's like you've kicked a ball through someone's window and you've broken it.
7:57Lewis Goodall:And so I just do think that, you know, the weird things that you thought, oh, my God, this has got terrible. Actually, Trump used as the opportunity to strong arm Netanyahu to say you've got nowhere else to go. And equally, the Turks, the Egyptians and the Qataris have also been strong arming Hamas. Trump apparently saying to Netanyahu on a phone call when he briefed him on the initial details, being really angry with Netanyahu, saying, don't be so fucking negative. You know, can you imagine Biden speaking to Netanyahu in that way? No way. Yeah, I was speaking to somebody who was quite close to some of this and they said this whole agreement could have been there a year ago.
8:35Daisy Cooper:we know that Biden had the framework. And this person said, if Democrats had had the balls to push Netanyahu into it. And I think that they described the bear hug. Now, a bear hug is obviously not a good thing. It's a thing that makes you, you know, drop everything else because you can't breathe. And that was what Trump did. I also think the other way around of looking at this is that Trump went to Hamas first, not Netanyahu. So it was when Hamas capitulated on this, When Hamas said, we've got nothing left, right? We've essentially had the ship bombed out of us. And what you have to remember, of course, with these deals is that Israel and Hamas do not negotiate directly.
9:16Daisy Cooper:So the people at the table are the Jordanians, the Qataris, the Egyptians and the Americans, right? It all takes place normally in Egypt. I think these talks are taking place in Egypt. So the idea that as soon as Hamas basically had to capitulate, there is nowhere left for Netanyahu to go. So he has to. He has to. But it doesn't mean that he isn't facing all the usual grief inside his own cabinet that have stopped this for so long. And I guess one of the areas and I think domestically there will be a lot of concern about this, which is when you look at the numbers, which is 24 hostages, you know, people who've done absolutely nothing wrong, get released alive.
9:59Daisy Cooper:And how many? Three thousand, I think. Right. How many? How many Palestinian protesters? prisoners, 3 ,000. And the likes of Ben Gavir and Smosh are just saying, these are people who will go out onto the streets, you know, armed and murderous, you know, with an intent to take revenge. And so I think there will be a disquiet about that disparity still. And I think that will, I mean, none of this matters today. The only thing they have to start today is the process of a ceasefire and that 72 clock to release the hostages that are alive. But then you get the prisoner release then you get the return of those hostages who didn't make it out and then you get
10:38Lewis Goodall:all the rest of the questions exactly right i tell you what i think that we've talked about the trump personality and the role that has played in getting this this far i mean yesterday in washington a number of the hostage families were there and they had a call with trump so they were in a different room trump was on the phone it's worth listening to it because the voice you hear at the beginning is the commerce secretary howard lutnik who treats these families like you would treat your children who've just been to another child's birthday party and what do you say cake what do you say before you go oh thank you very much for having me just have a listen president trump you have the best crowd in the world what do you guys have to
11:26Daisy Cooper:I mean, honestly, it kind of sticks in the craw that there will be some hostage families that are incredibly grateful to President Trump. And there will some who, you know, as we're hearing today, have found this whole stasis absolutely appalling. They place the blame at Netanyahu's feet. They place the blame, I think, at Trump's feet for not getting on with this slightly quicker, more quickly. and they don't think, oh yeah, we're really grateful for what's happened. They think, why didn't this happen two years ago?
11:56Lewis Goodall:Yeah, I think that's fair. But I think it's also fair that left to his own devices or left with the Biden policy, who will have kept going? And indeed, doubtless, there's probably some ambition of him that hopes to resurrect it at some point. And this is the thing. I mean, I think we've talked, I think there's a lot of guff often talked about like the idea of Trump's personality and his particular way of doing international politics of being kind of so unpredictable and that might generate results. We've seen, I think, the limits of that in Ukraine. I think it's fair to say that there's been some truth in that here, that he's been willing to do things that other presidents wouldn't do, and therefore it has yielded something.
12:31Lewis Goodall:The question, of course, is how long it yields anything for, right? So you've basically got three, I would say, sort of objectives of this, right? You've got to remember, the macro context here, this is not just a war that started on October 7, 2023. this is basically a war that has been going on on and off since 1948 since the creation of israel and what the white house is saying and the way they're talking about it where trump is talking about he's literally talking about bringing an end to a conflict in his own words to sort of wage for either hundreds of years or even 3 000 years right that is a very separate thing to what this is so there is a short-term peace i.e just ending the bloody war that is what this is about that's what stage one is about stage two is about getting back to something like the status score anti where you can be reasonably assured that this war that has gone on since bit of the war since 2023 does not resume and then of course the stage three which is the hardiest knottiest thorniest bit of all where many american presidential hopes have gone and died which is actually securing a long-term and the palestine authorities are talking about exactly and each of those is harder and harder than the last but the the question you raised
13:36Daisy Cooper:which is the timing. Fascinating, because on the one hand, it's very simple. It is exactly two years and two days since that atrocious massacre of October the 7th. And so you could say, well, this is, you know, in essence, an anniversary of sorts. But it's also, and I'm going carefully here because I don't want to minimise what is happening, But it probably isn't entirely a coincidence that on Monday, five members of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee sat down around a table in Oslo to decide who they should nominate for this year's Peace Prize. That announcement will come on Friday. And there has been, as I think you all know, enormous pressure from those around Trump and indeed from Trump himself to make sure that he is in consideration.
14:28Daisy Cooper:Now, technically, that can't actually happen, I think, because the nominations closed back in January before Trump had even made his mark in any kind of way. And they are now discussing, I think, 330 or so people who might be, you know, up for the award this year.
14:46Lewis Goodall:I bet he had a letter in before he became president.
14:48Daisy Cooper:Well, certainly there will be those around him who think that the closing of a nomination means absolutely sod all.
14:55Lewis Goodall:He'll think that they should take it away from whoever it's been given. Exactly.
14:59Daisy Cooper:Just one quote. And there's been this wonderful line from those around the table. Donald Trump does not align with the ideals of the Nobel Peace Prize and his divisive leadership style will harm his quest for the award. They say the president's military posturing, U.S. aid cuts and worldwide tariffs conflict with the spirit of international harmony. So on so many levels, there is no one who fits the bill less than Donald Trump in the entire world. and yet, you know, somehow he's still the bookie's favourite? I mean, what's going on? I think he should get it next year. Well, he might do. I mean, that seems to be a fair run.
15:36Daisy Cooper:12 months, let's see where we are in 12 months.
15:38Lewis Goodall:Well, look, if you go on to Truth Social now, Donald Trump's social media platform, and it is full of pictures of Donald Trump looking purposeful. One, he's going through the colonnades at the White House. The peace president is the captain. There's another one, the peacemaker. This time he's sitting down with a MAGA hat on. And then you've got kind of quotes from the US ambassador to Japan. Congratulations to President Trump, the greatest peace president in US history. So this line, Donald Trump, the peace president, is getting an awful lot of play on truth social as if they are also trying to remind the Nobel Committee in Oslo.
16:13Lewis Goodall:So what happens if he doesn't get it?
16:15Daisy Cooper:I mean, let's just imagine we wake up tomorrow and he doesn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. And I think... Starts a war? I'm going to say there is a slightly higher than zero chance he gets the Nobel Peace Prize tomorrow. But does he lose interest if it goes to somebody else?
16:29Lewis Goodall:Well, I think... Starts a war out of spite. Or he thinks it's about the long game. Look, I think that if this genuinely holds and it develops into something, and he continues his efforts with Ukraine and Russia, which, OK, have not amounted to very much so far, but there are other conflicts, you know, that he can point to. What happened in Armenia and Azerbaijan, both countries of leaders have said that he deserves it for that. what happened in Pakistan and India.
16:49Daisy Cooper:Honestly, no, that doesn't, no. Most of the things that he claims to have stopped have not stopped and most of the leaders...
16:55Lewis Goodall:Some of them have, though. Some of them actually have stopped, like Armenia and Azerbaijan. Well, India and Pakistan,
17:00Daisy Cooper:I mean, it has not been resolved.
17:02Lewis Goodall:No, but the Pakistanis actually said that he should get it for that. The Pakistanis have played a blinder on that. Yeah, and India doesn't. Sure, but what I'm saying is, is that, you know, what I'm saying is, is that let's give...
17:10Daisy Cooper:I just think we shouldn't quote him as the base maker. No, I'm not quoting him.
17:13Lewis Goodall:I'm quoting the leaders of Armenia and Azerbaijan. But what I'm saying is, is that in fairness to him, right, Look, I think a lot of so much of it is bluster. I think that it is difficult to award the Nobel Peace Prize to a man who has gutted USAID and all the terrible effects. People have died because of that in some of the most vulnerable parts of the world. I think in fairness, though, there was a lot of critique of Trump in the first administration and fear this time that he would be an isolationist. He's not been an isolationist, whether it's just because of his vanity. I'm sure it is largely his vanity.
17:41Lewis Goodall:But whatever is motivating him, that Nobel Peace Prize does seem to genuinely be motivating to be engaged in the world, not in the traditional multilateral institutions that typical American presidents have, but in a more bilateral way. You know what? If that is motivating him, I tell you what, if Donald Trump pulls off something like a durable peace in the Middle East, Of course he should get it. Not only should he get it, I'll buy the wrapping paper, I'll buy the ribbons and pay for the postage for it to be sent from Oslo to the White House. Because frankly...
18:11Daisy Cooper:I think we're slightly getting ahead of our skis here. Of course we are. We haven't seen... If you take Russia and Ukraine, absolutely nothing has come out of his attempts there except a closer rapprochement between America and Russia. Let's not forget that. Let's not forget what he called Zelensky. Let's not forget how he tried to isolate him. Let's not forget how he put the blame on him. Let's not forget just how much Trump admires these strong men around the world, whether it's Turkey, whether it's Hungary, whether it's Russia. He's on the side of dictators. Now, it just so happens with Netanyahu, he's got something to gain, he thinks, possibly because it's the week of the Nobel Peace Prize.
18:54Daisy Cooper:I don't know. But I just think we're getting slightly ahead of things when he suddenly becomes like Mahatma Gandhi.
19:00Lewis Goodall:Of course. Look, but after two years of this hideous monstrousness that has unfolded, take the victory. If Donald Trump wants to do a victory lap because his unique way of doing business has led to something like a peace in the Middle East and peace in Gaza. And for the bombing and the killing to stop and the hostages.
Read the full transcript
19:18Daisy Cooper:I think there's a very good chance that he waits for the hostages to be freed and then just gives up on the rest of it. And I'm not sure where that gets you.
19:25Lewis Goodall:No, I agree. And I think there is a decent chance of that. And that is definitely the history of a lot of his interests that they're sort of passing fancies and they come and they go and so on. And there are so many barriers to overcome, which will probably be completely insuperable. Hamas has got to give up his arms. Will it do that? Netanyahu and dealing with his cabinet and the far right elements that we've already talked about. Netanyahu is probably going to insist that every Hamas combatant who had anything to do or could be vaguely connected with October the 7th will be hunted down. It's just so easy to see how each of these things can just derail everything.
19:59Lewis Goodall:Nonetheless, as I say, Biden didn't do it. Trump has done it. You've got to give him some credit. Watch this space to see what happens next. But I agree. We're right to be sceptical about what comes after Monday if the hostages get released. And, you know, I hope that the progress and the steps have been put in place kind of become concrete and that you see real progress. We're right to be sceptical, but I think, as you say, Lewis, right to salute something of an achievement thus far. Very diplomatic. That's me. That's why he does the wrapping for the Nobel Peace Prize. I didn't realise he did that.
20:31Lewis Goodall:Every year. Every year. He's busy tomorrow. It's going to be a big day. He's going down to Paper Chase to buy all the other credit paper. Other brands available. We'll be back in just a moment with Lucy Powell, who's vying for the deputy leadership. Not the Nobel Peace Prize.
20:49Lewis Goodall:News you can trust and the conversations that matter.
20:52Lucy Powell:With award-winning journalists at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh.
20:59Lewis Goodall:I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next.
21:01Lucy Powell:Reporting from the heart of Cardiff.
21:03Lewis Goodall:Discover how today's story affects your life.
21:06Lucy Powell:Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app.
21:10Lewis Goodall:LBC, leading Britain's conversation.
21:18Lewis Goodall:The News Agents Well, rumbling on throughout this party conference season has been the unexpected prospect of a deputy leadership election for the Labour Party. And this week, ballots, electronic ballots, have gone out for that contest between the Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, and Lucy Powell, who until recently was leader of the House of Commons. And Lucy Powell is joining us now. Lucy Powell, thanks for coming in to talk to us at the News Agents. Let's just start with that. It seems to me that this fundamental split between you and Bridget Philipson is basically this kind of inside outside thing where you're promising to be a kind of full time deputy leader.
21:53Lewis Goodall:She's saying I'm going to be a voice at the cabinet table. I mean, in reality, what difference does that really make?
21:58Lucy Powell:Well, that's not the only difference at all. I mean, that is an important difference. I think the first thing to remember is this is a party role. It's directly elected by the Labour Party members. It's not a government role. Neither of us are going to be the deputy prime minister. That's David Lammy. And as far as government, organs of government are concerned, they don't recognise the role of deputy leader of the Labour Party at all.
22:19Lewis Goodall:Harriet Harman once said that she thought it was sexist that she didn't become deputy prime minister as a problem when she was deputy leader. Do you think you ought to be deputy prime minister if you're deputy leader?
22:27Lucy Powell:Well, we're not going to be because the prime minister's made that clear. But would you like to be? I'm really happy with the way I'm thinking about this job differently which is as a political job I'd be in the political cabinet I'd be in lots of the sort of political meetings and things but it's about making that political influence on everything we do right across government free from the constraints of collective agreement free from the constraints of running a big department at the time that that demands so I think that means I can do it's not just about how you do the job but then it's it's what effect you can bring and what voice you can bring to that and i think i bring a distinctive voice to the table as well representing
23:09Lewis Goodall:members that's the problem when we when we spoke to bridget phillipson about it that's the problem that she says will arise that you've what you've just said which is you'll be free of collective responsibility therefore you will be able to as she puts it sort of throw hand grenades into the government that you're the press will be constantly asking you for a point of difference between you and Keir Starmer and that that will present a point of instability for the government. And that's kind of true, isn't it?
23:34Lucy Powell:No, and I completely reject that. I mean, look, judge me by my actions. That's just not how I operate anyway. I haven't been doing that. I could have been doing that for the last four weeks and I've not been doing that.
23:41Lewis Goodall:You've been criticising the government's record reasonably readily.
23:44Lucy Powell:I've been saying we need to do better. I think that's just a point of fact, isn't it? I mean, it's not going that great for us in the polls. It's not been going that great. And I think we can do better and we can be a better version of ourselves. And I think part of the answer to that question is getting more politics back into the conversation, making sure we're better connected with the communities that we're here to serve, and that we're giving a much clearer sense of what is the purpose of this Labour government and whose side we are on. And I actually think the constraints of being in government, being appointed by the Prime Minister, perhaps stops people from vocalising things when they need to.
24:20Lucy Powell:And I think what Bridget's conceding is that I will actually be able to do that more effectively, but I'm not going to take to the airwaves to do that. I'm going to do that inside as much as I can.
24:29Lewis Goodall:But Lucy, you know, John Prescott, when he was deputy leader to Tony Blair, he said, Tony's the train driver, I'm the guard who can pull the emergency cord every now and then. You seem to be saying, no, no, I can also be the train driver because if I think he's veering too much one way, I'm going to make us go in another direction.
24:47Lucy Powell:I've been really clear. Look, this job is not about creating some alternative policy platform or some alternative budget or some alternative power base.
24:57Lewis Goodall:But you want Keir Starmer to change policies.
24:59Lucy Powell:I've not been saying that. What I've been saying is I will make sure that the views of party members, more broadly, the communities that we're here to represent, those broad voices in the Labour movement, which actually have always been heard at the top of the party, we've now got this sort of narrower and narrower groupthink, if you like, that's happening. and that's where wrong turns happen and that's where mistakes happen. We're at our best when we really represent those broader voices and I think that's what I can bring to the table. So yes, it's about making sure the politics is in the conversation.
25:34Lucy Powell:How's this going to go down? How's this going to speak to the story that we're trying to tell about the country and how we're trying to change it and make sure that those political conversations always happen? If you want to talk about the Tony Blair, John Prescott era, but Tony Blair also had a very plural cabinet for the whole time that he was Prime Minister. He had Clare Short, Robin Cook, John Prescott always in his cabinet, apart from when they... Are you saying there isn't that plurality at the moment? I don't think we are representing the broad voices of our... There's no soft left in the cabinet at all at the moment?
26:05Lucy Powell:It's a narrower, narrower set of voices and it's not been as connected as it needs to be. Do you think that's why he got rid of you?
26:13Lewis Goodall:Yes. You think because politically you were difficult?
26:17Lucy Powell:Because I vocalised my concerns about what was happening with the welfare reforms and because I fed back the problems that we were experiencing as a result within the parliamentary Labour Party. So I think I can really help.
26:30Lewis Goodall:Let me just dwell on that bit of it, the welfare reforms. I've heard people say in Number 10 that you acted as the chief whip for the rebels when you were leader of the House and meant to be getting this legislation passed.
26:43Lucy Powell:So to your point, people in number 10 said to you, that's why I was sacked.
26:48Lewis Goodall:They thought that you were not working for Keir Starmer, but working against him. Well, I mean, that's... Under collective cabinet responsibility.
26:55Lucy Powell:I mean, that's ridiculous. I was, what I was doing was feeding back the issues, feeding back people's concerns. I spent a huge amount of time talking to colleagues, trying to persuade colleagues, and feeding back people's concerns. if that has been taken as somehow sort of lead rebel, then that is, you know, fundamentally not true. But of course it does. What it does do is confirm that actually, you know, those were things that I did speak out about because I could see that they were not going to land well. So, you know, I definitely wasn't winding people up. Do you think you can work well with Kirstama?
27:34Lucy Powell:Yeah. Do you like each other? I think I can help him. I think I can help him to reach back into the party, reach back into the communities that we need to serve. I think I want Keir to really succeed and be successful.
27:46Lewis Goodall:You're not answering my question.
27:48Lucy Powell:Well, it's not that it likes the sort of... Of course I don't like Keir. Of course I like Keir.
27:53Lewis Goodall:But it would be helpful if you liked the leader as his deputy.
27:56Lucy Powell:Yeah, of course I like the leader, yeah.
27:58Lewis Goodall:You like him personally?
28:00Lucy Powell:Yeah, I don't blame that. There's no animus between you? No, I've been to the football with Keir. We've been to various things together. We've watched Man City Arsenal together a number of times. I've always got on with gear
28:10Lewis Goodall:It just seems to take a while to get to
28:12Lucy Powell:No, no, I don't know, it's just a kind of odd thing It's not about like your
28:16Lewis Goodall:Well I think if you're the deputy leader of the Labour Party and he's the leader and it probably is quite important that you get on
28:22Lucy Powell:Yeah, we do get on, absolutely we get on and I get on with all my colleagues, I try to be really positive in this campaign
28:30Lewis Goodall:Do you trust him, let's assume you win the current polling suggests that will happen Do you trust him to bring you on board You trust him to give you the seat at the table that you need as deputy leader?
28:40Lucy Powell:I know that Kia respects the views of party members and respects the positions. This is a directly elected position. Somebody, whoever gets it, me or Bridget, we will have a mandate from the membership. And that is a mandate that is a powerful one, but it's a mandate that I would take very responsibly, very seriously, use wisely. but that's what the tradition of this job has always been is that it's not someone who's appointed by the leader it's who the leader actually wants or prefers to have the job the party members choose themselves directly and often what they do is they choose someone who can bring something additional to the table who's a sort of complementary character and role and I think that's why more and more members are backing my campaign
29:25Lewis Goodall:What do you say to what Bridget Philipson has said when she's warned in the last 24 hours that members voting for you risks energising our opponents?
29:34Lucy Powell:I mean, I just reject that. I've been really positive in this campaign. I've spent the whole campaign talking about what I bring to the table, how I would do this job. I've got a lot of time for Bridget. I think she's been a good education secretary. I'm not in the business of sort of spreading Project FIA. I will leave that to others. I think we should just both put forward our case for why people should vote for us, That's what she's doing. Not against other people. Project fear. Well, I mean, it's a bit of a ludicrous suggestion, isn't it?
30:05Lewis Goodall:Well, I suppose what she's saying is it goes back to that point about potentially having significant points of difference between you and the leader and that that will energise your opponents.
30:15Lucy Powell:I mean, I just reject that. This is, as I say, it's a directly elected position which Labour Party members choose. It's not that you first have to be appointed by the Prime Minister and then you can choose amongst those people. And that's always been the tradition with this.
30:32Lewis Goodall:And you'd never be in the cabinet if he said at some point, let's say you get on really well and actually you're working really well together and he says, Lucy, I'd love you to head up a department. You'd say, I don't want to do that.
30:40Lucy Powell:I think I can do a much more political and effective job for him and for this government in the role that I describe now. And I think there's a great virtue to that. And I think if we look back at our time in government, actually having, in the previous government, having someone who was full-time, you know, really building up the party, building up the infrastructure, building up the sort of political strategy work so that then when we next needed the party, you know, it was there and we hadn't let it wither on the vine. And I think often when you're in government, you do kind of let the party wither on the vine.
31:14Lewis Goodall:So thinking about policy, obviously the big moment of the autumn politically is going to be the budget. Yeah. And by which time you'll be deputy leader if you're elected. So obviously there is all of this talk about the cuts that, oh, and then tax rises, that the Chancellor may have to introduce. Will you support her completely in that, if that's what she decides to do? Tax rises and budget cuts?
31:35Lucy Powell:Yeah, I'm not here to write an alternative budget. I'd be really, really clear about that.
31:39Lewis Goodall:You wouldn't oppose any of it?
31:40Lucy Powell:What I'm here to try and help in this role, the role that I sort of describe, is to make sure that we can tell a really compelling story about what it is that we are doing, what the purpose of the Labour government is. And I think that starts with economic fairness for me, being really clear that we want a fairer economy, an economy that works for working people, that trickle-down economics just hasn't worked for ordinary people. That's why I've been saying, look, we do need to have more urgency around lifting the two-child benefit cap, because every day that that's in place, more and more kids go into poverty.
32:18Lucy Powell:And how do you pay for that?
32:19Lewis Goodall:Where do you think that?
32:20Lucy Powell:Well, I think Gordon Brown's given, you know, over the summer, which I didn't think got as much attention as it should have done. I thought his commission, his report that he produced over the summer about various ways that you could raise money for that, particularly around a gambling levy, for example. But I think he set out ways of raising kind of nine billion pounds to go directly towards tackling child poverty. So I think it's about making sure we've got those big arguments right. That's what I would see my task as doing. Get the big arguments right. Get the story and the communications of that right and the politics of that right.
32:57Lucy Powell:It's not my job to sit and work in detail on a budget. That is for the Chancellor to do.
33:04Lewis Goodall:It is such a critical relationship that you would have with Keir Starmer. Have you spoken to him about how you see the deputy leadership role?
33:11Lucy Powell:Yeah, I did have a conversation with him and I'm sure I'll have another one with him soon. He was keen to have a conversation with me and I was keen to, you know. And did he like your ideas? I mean, we just had a brief conversation and, you know, about how it could work, what was motivating me to stand and how I wanted to support him and this government to succeed and be a better version of ourselves. And I think I can really help him to do that and to reconnect us with our movement, with our community and do some of the things I've been talking about in this campaign. For example, you know, just being a lot clearer about setting the agenda.
33:51Lucy Powell:I think we ceded the agenda too much in the last few months as well.
33:54Lewis Goodall:And do you think it works to your advantage electorally in terms of winning the fact that you are seen as his not favoured candidate?
34:02Lucy Powell:I think people see me as somebody who would be the voice of the membership. And I mean, to your point, you were saying earlier, one of the reasons because it was it's hard to get on the ballot paper in these contests. You know, you've got to get a high number of MPs backing you. And I've got a lot of MPs backing me, a lot of MPs wanting to support me. And that's because many of the backbenchers, especially the new MPs, have really seen me as their shop steward over the last 15 months. Maybe, as you say, number 10 saw that as a threat. You know, they shouldn't have done. But, you know, now I think I can take that one step further and be the sort of shop steward for the membership as well.
34:39Lucy Powell:And I think that's what members kind of look for in this role. when you look at deputy leaders who've been elected in the past. I mean, even the year that Jeremy won as leader, Tom Watson won at the same time as deputy leader because there's always a bit of yin and yang with this, isn't there? That party members do choose someone who's complementary.
34:58Lewis Goodall:There's been a lot of criticism about Number 10 of being a boys club, a sexist boys club. I think even you talked about that before. Do you think that's the case? Do you think that's still the case?
35:07Lucy Powell:I think that we need a cultural reset about how we're operating. I think we need to be more inclusive, more open. I think we need to recognise that unity of purpose comes from not command and control and sort of strong arming people, but comes from winning the argument and taking people with us. Do you think it has been sexist? If we can't win the argument with the parliamentary Labour Party, how do we think we're going to win the argument in the country? And so I think we do need a cultural reset.
35:39Lewis Goodall:Do you think number 10 has been a boys club?
35:41Lucy Powell:There's a bit of boys club about it, but there have been some strong women working there as well, although some of those have left of late.
35:49Lewis Goodall:Do you think that Morgan McSweeney can do what you're saying, build that bigger team?
35:52Lucy Powell:I think we need a more inclusive approach, a more open approach, and we need to recognise that actually when people are raising concerns, that's not disloyalty, that's because they want us to make the right decisions and they want us to make good judgements.
36:05Lewis Goodall:But do you think that Morgan McSweeney is capable of building that?
36:07Lucy Powell:Yeah, I think Morgan could be, but I think we you know it's not well look I'm not going to make it about individuals I don't think this is about individuals
36:14Daisy Cooper:do you think he advises the Prime Minister well
36:16Lucy Powell:I think this is about a culture I think this is about a structure and I think it's about politics and I think all of those things I can help improve and that's what I want to do
36:27Lewis Goodall:Lucy Powell thank you very much indeed thank you thanks Lucy
36:39Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. So I think that despite what Lucy Powell was saying, and she was very gamely sort of engaging with it and our sort of questions, which obviously she could see what we were trying to do. But like, I think it does demonstrate exactly where this is likely to go, right? Which is that, you know, we've not had before, or not in something in the last few decades, you know, we've not had a deputy leader of the Labour Party elected at a different time to the leader. You know, normally it happens at once. And yes, there can be friction between them. and it can be difficult, but it's usually internal and they're out there to sort of represent the leader, come what may.
37:16Lewis Goodall:Lucy Powell is saying, she's setting herself up as to say, I will be on the outside. And yes, I will be, of course, a sort of an emissary for the party and I'll take our message to the media and so on. But everybody knows, everybody knows, this is a woman who was literally dismissed from the Prime Minister's cabinet only a month ago or whatever it was. And now, again, the twist and turn of politics. She is now poised to end up returning as his deputy, having been sacked by him a few weeks ago. So, look, is this going to be good for business for us, the news agents, for newspapers, for broadcasters?
37:51Lewis Goodall:It's going to be fabulous. Is it going to be good for Keir Starmer? Probably not. It's going to make his life a hell of a lot more difficult as a result. And I thought there were so many areas where she looked sort of both ways. at once. It's not for me to write a budget. We've obviously got to get rid of the two-child cap on benefits. I was not the chief whip opposing the welfare reform measures, but I do see myself as the shop steward. Well, you know, angels dancing on the head of a pin. And so I think she wants to put herself up as that left-wing alternative to some of what's gone on in the government today.
38:25Lewis Goodall:Even just imagine it, right, on the day that she's elected, the next Prime Minister's questions. She's not going to be on the front bench. she'll be on the back benches somewhere the cameras will pan to her can we be knocking whoever are going to be like oh where's the prime minister's deputy you know and sort of pointing out it's going to be a blow to his authority come what may no matter how lucy powell acts it is going to be a blow to his authority that she wins and philipson loses because although number 10 have not declared themselves for philipson everyone knows that she is basically the candidate of number 10 and she is herself saying you know i'm the internal voice i'm the person who's going to represent your views around the cabinet table etc etc etc so that in itself is going to be damaging and of course long term even if lucy powell is fastidiously loyal to kia starmer which she says that she will be she does come from a different wing of the party to him or rather where he is now at least yeah probably actually roughly they started in the same place but now he's he's he's sort of more represented by the right of the party she's on the soft left of the party you know close allies with ed milliband close allies with andy burnham and And although Andy Burnham is a wounded animal right now, I don't think he's extinguished.
39:29Lewis Goodall:And of course, his big impediment, as we've discussed before, is the fact that he's not in Parliament. Well, you know, the people who can put him in Parliament at some point is Labour's NEC, the National Executive Committee. And Lucy Powell, as a deputy leader, will have a permanent seat on the NEC. It's obviously not enough in itself, but it is, you know, Pusama has been controlling the party up to now. Angela Rayner, again, was not his person as such, but they did work reasonably closely together. So having someone come in in these circumstances does represent a chink in the authority that Starmer has had over his party, which has been pretty ironclad, certainly since the early days when he banished half the Corbyn lot.
40:06Lewis Goodall:And there's just now, if she wins, there is an alternative power block that people can rally around as the deputy leader who is trying to challenge Keir Starmer. And that is reality of fact of life. Also, the reason you've got to love politics is it's also personal. and he fires her and now she comes back even more powerful than she was the permagrin he'll have to have when he's shaking his hand at the party conference everyone's going to have a field day and we will be back tomorrow and it's the 40th anniversary of neil kinnock's famous speech taking on militant and you'll be speaking to him absolutely talking to neil kinnock about the speech that made his career and arguably was the turning point in the Labour Party's very long-term fortunes from the nadir of the 1980s to the present day and there's lots of contemporary relevance and stories and echoes that we're going to explore.
41:01Lewis Goodall:And don't forget News Agents USA of course as well and we'll see you tomorrow. Bye-bye. This has been a Global Player original production.
From the publisher
Israel and Hamas have agreed to the initial phase of a ceasefire plan in Gaza.
Donald Trump announced the agreement saying all hostages would be released, and Israel would withdraw troops.
There have been celebrations on the streets in Gaza and Israel, but is the peace plan going to last? And does the President now have an outside chance of securing the Nobel Peace Prize?
Later in the show we speak with Lucy Powell, one of the two contenders for the Labour deputy leadership, who struggles to tell us what she really thinks of Keir Starmer.
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