In short
Podcast Summary: The News Agents - Kemi Badenoch Promises to Abolish Stamp Duty. Is it Enough to Save Her Job?
Episode Overview In this episode of *The News Agents*, Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, and Lewis Goodall analyze Kemi Badenoch's recent speech at the Conservative Party Conference, which garnered significant attention and applause. Badenoch's pledges include abolishing stamp duty, removing VAT on private schools, banning doctors from striking, and altering the structure of human rights protections in the UK. The discussion explores whether these measures are substantial enough to revive her political standing and the Conservative Party's fortunes.
Key Highlights
Badenoch's Speech
- Reception: Kemi Badenoch received an enthusiastic response from the conference audience, signaling potential support within her party.
- Core Message: The speech emphasized a return to traditional conservative values, drawing comparisons to Margaret Thatcher's policies.
- Key Proposals:
- Abolition of Stamp Duty: Aimed at revitalizing the housing market, expected to cost approximately £11 billion.
- Tax Repeals: Pledges to scrap VAT on private school fees and inheritance tax on family farms and businesses.
- Public Sector Changes: Plans to ban strikes by doctors and shut down certain university courses deemed unnecessary.
Analysis of Impact
- Political Implications: The panel discussed whether these proposals are enough to shift public opinion and garner support for the Conservative Party.
- Polling Data: Recent polls indicate that the Conservative Party retains some trust among voters regarding economic management, contrary to expectations after Liz Truss's tenure.
- Skepticism: Concerns were raised about the feasibility of funding these proposals without clear financial backing, with some suggesting they might be "fantasy economics."
Reactions and Broader Context
- Comparative Policies: The panel compared Badenoch's proposals to Labour's policies, questioning if the Conservatives can effectively position themselves again as a credible alternative.
- Conference Dynamics: The mood at the conference was noted as surprisingly positive, despite underlying tensions and expectations of impending challenges for the party.
- Media Attention: Discussions highlighted the importance of capturing media narratives to regain momentum and public interest.
Future Considerations
- Effectiveness of the Speech: The episode concludes with questions about whether Badenoch's strong conference performance will translate to tangible support in future polls.
- Kemi Badenoch's Role: Speculation remains regarding her long-term leadership potential and the implications of her policy announcements on the Conservative Party's future.
Key Takeaways
- Kemi Badenoch's speech marks a strategic attempt to define the Conservative Party's identity amidst competition from Labour and reformist factions.
- The ambitious tax-cutting promises face scrutiny regarding their economic viability and potential impact on public services.
- The effectiveness of Badenoch's proposals to save her leadership position and reinvigorate the Conservative Party remains uncertain, as polling data will reveal the public's response in the coming weeks.
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For more detailed discussions and insights, visit the [News Agents website](https://www.thenewsagents.co.uk/) or listen to the episode on Global Player.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02John Glen:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:06Emily Maitlis:We've just emerged blinking into the sunlight from the darkness of the conference hall where Kemi Badenoch just finished making her speech. She had the crowds in there on their feet. She delivered everything that they were hoping she would. A return to something that sounded like a purer form of conservatism, even more Thatcherite in its outlook. It was all about the economy. She promised an end to stamp duty under a new Conservative government. She promised to stop doctors from striking and to end what she would think of as Mickey Mouse University courses. She didn't spell out which. Earlier in the week, she announced that the Conservatives would leave the ECHR and abandon the Human Rights Act.
0:48Emily Maitlis:Somewhere, she needs to make headlines. She needs to move the dial. has this speech done what she needed to do? Welcome to The News Agents.
1:02Jon Sopel:The News Agents. It's John. It's Lewis. It's Emily. And Emily, if you're only listening to this, is sitting in front of a picture of Margaret Thatcher, both Maitlis and Thatcher addressed in blue. Of course. The two iron ladies of British politics there together. that. But of course it was another woman whose headlines were hers today and that's Kemi Badenock delivering her speech as Tory party leader. Some people wondering whether this will be the only speech she'll deliver as party leader because she'll be gone. Actually it was a rather good speech and it's been quite a good conference really in some ways.
1:40Jon Sopel:If the task for the Tories was to give themselves some definition of who they are and why they are different from reform and what their battle is with Labour, I think sort of they kind of can say that they achieved that. And there were a whole variety of policies that have come out over the past two or three days, leave the ECHR, cut foreign aid, abolition of stamp duty, cut immigration, etc., that have given them some definition. The biggest question, of course, is whether anyone was listening outside the hall or indeed how many people were listening inside.
2:15Emily Maitlis:Well, I was inside the hall and that is often a complicated place to be because you are right inside the bubble, as it were. But she got an enormous ovation as soon as she came onto the stage. The hall was absolutely behind her from the moment she appeared. There was a very confusing moment when everyone stood to sing the national anthem. and this was because it was the sort of project of the GB News anchor Chris Hope who had been trying to run a campaign to get the anthem sung at conference by Kemi Badenock and as soon as people were on their feet, all the press, all the journalists sort of looked at each other and were like, well, do we get up?
2:56Emily Maitlis:Are we part of this? Are we observers? And then as soon as one row did, everyone realised that they all had to but they sort of carried on filming it with their mobile phones as if to say, well, I'm still just being a journalist, I'm observing this, I'm not really singing the national anthem but they were singing the national anthem. She definitely got the reception that put a smile on her face to get her through the speech. And as you say, it wasn't overly lengthy, which I think was good. It came in at under 50 minutes. And she cracked through her policy changes, her policy decisions. And the biggest, as you mentioned, was the abolition, the absolute blanket abolition under a new Conservative government of stamp duty on every level of house buying, which we reckon would cost about£11 billion.
3:48Emily Maitlis:We didn't get the figures of exactly where that money was coming from, but it was a mood changer. It was something big enough, big brush enough for people to get to their feet again and say the Conservatives are back. And I guess the sort of the mosaic of Thatcher sitting behind me has dominated this whole conference in a very sort of visceral way, which is they want to get back to remembering what conservatives are, what conservatives do. They mentioned the Boris wave as the place where immigration went wrong. They talk about the coalition as the time when, you know, that wasn't real conservatism.
4:27Emily Maitlis:They didn't really like what Liz trusted to the economy. they didn't really like Rishi Sunak for going too early on the election itself. And so somewhere, Kemi Badenokh had to find the thing that made everyone in the room feel that they had returned to a pure conservative message. And yeah, if that was what you wanted, you definitely got that.
4:48Lewis Goodall:Yeah, well, it's worth probably just listening to that bit of the speech that got the conference so excited. This is what Kemi Badenokh had to say about stamp duty.
4:55Kemi Badenoch:Stamp duty is a bad tax. It is an unconservative tax. The last Conservative government cut stamp duty for thousands of homebuyers. But now we must go further. We must free up our housing market. Because a society where no one can afford to buy or move is a society where social mobility is dead. So I have looked at the stamp duty thresholds to see where we can change them. I have looked at the rates you have to pay to see if we can lower them. I have decided that we can't. Because that simply wouldn't be enough. Conference, the next Conservative government will abolish stamp duty on your own.
5:42Lewis Goodall:I think that this was a speech, in its own terms, was pretty impressive. It contained a clear critique of Keir Starmer's government, a line which stood out, which said they had a plan to win, but no plan for power. There were a lot of Labour MPs who would privately agree with that. She went into this conference having to try and find some definition and to try and prove that the Conservative Party, the behemoth of British politics, the party of the state in Britain, still has something to say and still has a role in politics when arguably they are the third, perhaps the fourth, most interesting party in politics right now.
6:18Lewis Goodall:And I think what she's tried to do, and the opening that she has seen, is actually, funnily enough, not how she made her name. She made her name as a conservative minister, to some extent at least, on the questions of the culture war. And there were still references in the speech to that, things about gender identity and defining what a woman is and all of that sort of thing. That's how she became one of the darlings of the party in the government. But instead what she's done is to try and see a path through on classic conservative territory, which is on the economy. And she's partly done this because of actually some polling that has been out in the last few weeks and months, which has said something surprising, which is that actually on the economy, the Conservatives actually retain a lead in trust from voters over Labour and over reform.
7:04Lewis Goodall:Now, you might not have assumed after the Liz Trust debacle that that would be the case. I remember when we were covering that at the time when we were getting started, we were talking potentially about that permanently tarnishing or destroying the economic credibility of the Conservative Party for perhaps a political generation like Black Wednesday did to John Major's government in 1992. to, for whatever reason, maybe because the Conservatives have been quite clever in pinning it entirely on Truss herself personally as a kind of weird aberration. That has not happened. So what she's trying to do is to see a path through where she can claim some distinctive territory vis-a-vis both Labour, who are disappointing the electorate on the economy, and Reform, who are distrusted as not being serious or credible on the economy.
7:46Lewis Goodall:That is clearly the path that she's trying to triangulate politically.
7:49Jon Sopel:Yeah and I think that's really interesting and not only was there the pledge on stamp duty I want to play something else that she said and kind of talk about it afterwards because she also talked about some of the taxes that Labour had introduced that she would scrap.
8:03Kemi Badenoch:To fix our country we must reverse Labour's measures.
8:19Kemi Badenoch:So, we will cancel their vindictive tax on education.
8:31Kemi Badenoch:Vicky knows what's coming. We will scrap their tax on family farms. Andrew, we will scrap their tax on family businesses.
8:48Kemi Badenoch:And we will reverse the terrible measures in Angela Rayner's unemployment bill, written by the unions, for the unions, a bill that will wrap firms in red tape, cost business£5 billion, pounds and make Angela Rayner probably one of the last people in Britain to ever be legally sacked.
9:10Jon Sopel:I think you're right Lewis but isn't there a danger that you say well we're going to abolish stamp duty and as Emily just said a moment ago that's kind of 11 12 billion quid we're going to kind of take away the VAT that Labour put on school fees we're going to take away what they're going to do about people with you know family farms and those estates and inheritance tax and all the rest of that that starts to add up like real money and if your answer to the question is well where is the money coming from there are going to be savings in the cost of the civil service and the cost of welfare yeah well hang on i mean yeah everyone is trying to find you know 50 billion down the back of the sofa you can might find a few kind of hairpins down the back of the sofa but you're not going to find money like that and i think that's where people kind of think oh this is just fantasy economics.
9:57Jon Sopel:So I can see exactly what they're trying to do, but surely if you're coming up with big ticket items like, we're going to abolish that, and we're going to abolish something else, well where's the money coming to pay for it?
10:07Emily Maitlis:I think, and it was explained to me last night, actually by Sir Gavin Williamson, no less, that at the moment, they can sort of get away with playing fantasy economics, because if they come up with a real policy that they really like, that's been properly costed, and it's actually a good one, then all that happens is in the next three to four years, Labour nick it, right? That's what they assume would happen. So actually what they're doing now is they're just coming up with the broad brush strokes. They need to get the momentum back. They need to get the conversation back on their terms. They need probably to set a few traps for Labour.
10:44Emily Maitlis:So the next question, you know, any of us would ask the housing secretary will be, what do you think about scrapping stamp duty? And if the Tories can do it, why can't you? And I think at this point, it's all about the attention economy. You know, the Tories feel very frustrated that people talk about reform a lot. They talk about Farage a lot. And they don't talk about Kemi Baden-Okhorne or the Conservatives enough. So in a way, this speech was saying, yeah, we'll get to the maths. You know, we'll get to the numbers. We'll get to the decimal places. But right now, we just want to scream something that you can't ignore.
11:20Emily Maitlis:and I'm willing to bet that the Daily Mail will have the stamp duty cut probably on the front of their paper. I'm pretty sure that the sun will go with that too tomorrow. Maybe all the papers will, in which case they've kind of won this round because£11 billion today is not£11 billion in 2029. I mean, we might, who knows, be in the middle of a recession by then. But all I can tell you is my very first Conservative conference was in Blackpool nearly 20 years ago. And it was the conference at which George Osborne came out of the traps and said, we're going to lift inheritance tax to the million pound number.
11:59Emily Maitlis:And it changed everything. It changed everything in the hall. It changed the momentum. And it's often credited with being the thing that made Gordon Brown cancel his election later that year. So, in a way, the maths sort of doesn't matter today.
12:16Lewis Goodall:I think that's right. Look, I think the way that Kemi Baden-Ockwood would think it is that if she's ever in a position where she actually has to make these numbers add up, that'll be a really nice problem to have because they are so distant from that prospect politically, both in time and political space, that, frankly, you know, it's not a problem for today. But I think, Emily, what you've said is right. Look, I think that this was, given how low expectations were, given how much talk there was of generic swirling, and we've talked about it, make no mistakes, he wants to be the leader, he's still got his operation going to be the leader.
12:45Lewis Goodall:I think you're right, there will be some good press from this, it'll probably dominate their headlines, they've played it as well as they're going to do. And therefore, for me, this is the test. This is the test of exactly going back to John's question at the start of the show. You can have a great conference, you can make a good speech, you can present a reasonably searing analysis to the government, but is anybody still listening? Because if when you're in opposition, conferences are less important for governments than they are for opposition. Government get to have the bully pulpit of politics every single day of the week.
13:14Lewis Goodall:They set the terms, they set the agenda. An opposition party doesn't. They very seldom get to set the agenda. And conference week is one week where they at least get to try and put a word in the nation's ear. If having had a decent conference and getting the sort of decent press I think they'll get from this, there is literally no shift in the polls at all, then I think that that will make what seemed like a strong day today seem like a weak day tomorrow for Kemi Bader not, because it will indicate to me, I think, that basically, say for some massive event that comes along and rescues her, the country just isn't interested in what they've got to say and what she's got to say either.
13:47Jon Sopel:So further, Emily, to your point about the Daily Mail, I've just brought up the Daily Mail, online, front story, Kemi, Al-Ak, stamp duty, Kemi Badenok electrifies Tories with vow to abolish stamp duty. So Maitlis, 10 out of 10 for predicting that. The other thing I would say is, look, I think for both parties, you know, the two main parties that we used to talk of, Labour and the Conservative, they've both had better conferences than maybe we thought they would going into them. Keir Starmer saw off any threat coming from his left, from Andy Burnham. And Nigel Farage kind of helped him a little bit with some of the things that he'd said going into the conference.
14:27Jon Sopel:And the Tories have done better than expected, given the low bar that had been set for them coming in. Whether Labour or Conservative Party's positions have changed at the end of the party conference season, I frankly doubt. We're the geeks who take a lot more interest in what is happening at party conferences than ordinary people do.
14:50Emily Maitlis:I have to say, they are literally dismantling the entire conference centre as we sit here. So if you can hear the noises off, that's the hammers. I think it's just going to be the Iron Lady left here, you know, with me as a little pool at her feet. I tell you what they've really done, though. They have shut down Robert Jenrick with that speech. And I was talking to a frontbencher last night in the bars. And there was a real sense that this person said Rob Jenrick has done an Andy. In other words, an Andy Burnham. He's overreached. He's made it all about him. And they didn't like the fact that the whole of yesterday was dominated by questions about race from those leaked Jenrick comments.
15:29Emily Maitlis:And they didn't like the fact that they were going on air to try and talk about their policies. And they kept on being asked questions about Robert Jenrick. And I think today's speech, where she just gave him the smallest nod, you know, well done for chasing down the fair dodgers. Sort of a pitiful thank you. Was about, you know, putting him back in his box. The other thing I think that I've been learning in the last few minutes, actually, just talking to some of those who've sort of been more involved in the planning, is the stamp duty decision came very late. My senses, they went into this conference not knowing.
16:06Emily Maitlis:They knew they wanted to cut a tax. They didn't know what it would be. And I understand that that was worked out between Kimmy Badenock and her shadow chancellor literally in the past sort of few days. It was very, very tightly under wraps. They knew they needed a kind of wow factor, a wow statement. And I think they've got it with this one. I have to say there's a lot of stuff that we haven't yet covered that was in the speech, including a ban on doctors being able to strike and a cancellation of university courses, not spelled out which one. But just after she'd finished speaking, I spoke to an old hander, a Tory old hander, who is now Kimmy Baden-Ock's PPS, her parliamentary private secretary, about some of the questions she raised in the speech that she left unanswered.
17:02Emily Maitlis:John, there was a big announcement that came right at the end about stamp duty. Yes. Just to clarify, is that the abolition of all stamp duty on any price of house?
17:10John Glen:Yes, across all households. And we think this is really important to get the economy moving and to actually indicate our values as a party. And, you know, I mean, I've just come out of the hall and, you know, it's a remarkable atmosphere. I've never known it after several years of, you know, significant challenges, frankly, since COVID. So, you know, this is a policy that a lot of our supporters have been frustrated that we weren't able to deliver. and I think it sort of gives us something to get behind in terms of campaigning as we move forward into local elections next year.
17:47Emily Maitlis:How much is it going to cost?
17:48John Glen:Well, the Shadow Chancellor has set out a paper earlier this week of the savings that have been acquired from£8 billion, for example, from civil service savings,£23 billion from welfare.
17:59Emily Maitlis:So how much do you reckon it's going to cost, though? I don't have that number myself.
18:02John Glen:I think you should interview the Shadow Chancellor on that. I mean, obviously, there are lots of behavioural effects as well around what it does in the economy. I know from my time in the Treasury that there'll be lots of assumptions behind how much it would cost. You can't really predict exactly how much it will cost.
Read the full transcript
18:20Emily Maitlis:But you can predict that it's going to overheat the housing market, can't you? That it's probably going to make it even harder for people to get on the rung if everyone's moving house and house prices then go up. I mean, that's going to have a...
18:33John Glen:We're not in power at the moment. What we have seen is a government that came in rather nonchalantly promising one and a half million houses were going to be built. They're way short of that. The legislation needing to speed it up isn't happening.
18:49Emily Maitlis:So isn't the important thing to build the houses rather than...
18:52John Glen:Of course that's part of it as well. We won't be able to cover the whole of housing in this conversation, but there are obviously different elements to it. But one of the barriers is stamp duty, which has a massive chilling effect at all levels. and as Kemi said in her speech, people don't move, they can't get on in the first place and then they don't move within levels or even downsize because of the disincentives around how this tax has been applied and the additional elements to it higher up. So a lot of analysis will no doubt be undertaken on it but I think what Kemi was keen to do in this speech was actually show who she is, what she stands for.
19:32John Glen:You've seen all the banners around conference, you know, stronger borders, stronger economy. And actually, she's also not frightened to actually take bold, clear decisions within the golden economic rule that she set out. Getting the debt down, which has always been a conservative priority, has been the major first thing she said. And then actually give people back. And of course, there are other announcements about people in their first job having a£5 ,000 rebate on the national insurance that they pay for long term savings or to go towards a deposit on that first home. And these are the sorts of bold policies that everyone's been waiting for.
20:12John Glen:And she's been criticised for not coming out with sooner. But she was very clear. She wanted to analyse where things had gone wrong and come out with a clear blueprint for the future of the Conservative Party.
20:24Emily Maitlis:Give us a peek behind the curtain, because our listeners will love to understand this. When we went into the hall, the rumour, I think, that was coming from the Times, that it was going to be a cut to income tax, the 2P. Is that, I mean, do you set hairs running and say, well, there might be a tax cut and people make up their mind? Or was there a question over whether it would be stamp duty or a cut in income tax at the beginning of this week? Like, when was this decision made?
20:47John Glen:I'm delighted that she managed to get to the end of her speech, and even Stephen Swinford didn't get the story. Look, it's important that she is able to inject surprise and she's done that. So what do you do? Do you leak the wrong thing? No, I wouldn't get into these mysterious arts, Emily. I've been around politics on and off for 25 years. And look, there are always considerations of what's the best thing and right thing to do, the best thing for the economy, politically the best thing.
21:21Emily Maitlis:Where was the stamp duty decision taken then?
21:22John Glen:Well, look, I'm just her parliamentary private secretary. It's the decision of the shadow cabinet, and they will have made that. And sure, it's Mel Stride and the leader would have been looking at this very closely. But you know, you've been around politics long enough to know that these things need to be held very tightly. We needed to make sure that we came out with a clear policy that sets a direction and helps people to understand, you know, Kemi's instincts and what she will be as prime minister.
21:49Emily Maitlis:Let's pick up on a couple of other things in the speech. Of course. Doctors will be banned from going on strike. Doctors will be banned from striking. So if you're a junior doctor and you think that you are basically underpaid and have been underpaid for the last 12 years, you won't be allowed to strike.
22:10John Glen:Well, we do have professions like the armed forces and the police who don't go on strike. and I think what Kemi is saying is that I think the general public now feel that in some instances it feels as if public services are run for the convenience of those who work in them rather than for the benefit of those who pay the taxes that pay their salaries.
22:38Emily Maitlis:So why wouldn't you say tube drivers should be banned from striking? Why is it doctors and not other professions, just to understand that?
22:45John Glen:Well, there are lots of different key professionals who work very hard throughout our country, and I recognise that. But I think being able to access healthcare through GPs is really important. And I think it's commonly understood and recognised that those who run the BMA's representative committees aren't necessarily thinking about the best interests of the general public who need those services open. I personally feel that... You're comfortable with that, are you? Well, I think I'm very uncomfortable with the fact that our public services aren't working. And sometimes I think that there is militant representatives of those professions who advance a contest to the detriment of the general public.
23:38John Glen:And I think Kemi's recognising that and she's saying we need to do something about it. Not just accept that we've got to keep on a never-ending conversation. Wes Streeton came in last year, let's not forget, and said, well, we'll sort all of this out. He didn't put any conditions on it. And he's now had more strikes and rumbling about even more strikes from different cohorts of the medical profession. So when he's made that settlement, that doesn't work either.
24:03Emily Maitlis:Right. So you're saying you don't believe you can settle with medical professionals anymore. You just have to ban them.
24:08John Glen:Well, I'm not saying that. No, what I am saying is that there is a situation where we have tried for a very long time through lots of arguments, conversations, and indeed this government last year made a significant settlement with no conditions attached.
24:25Emily Maitlis:And where's that taken us? OK, a couple of more things. She accused the prime minister of cancelling the trial of the two Chinese spies, alleged spies, because she said the PM wants to suck up to Beijing. Does she, I mean, does she know that he cancelled that trial because of links with Beijing?
24:46John Glen:Well, yes, I think there's a lot more to be said on this story. That was quite a strong allegation she made. Well, it was, and we will see how this story unfolds. But I think there is a clear difference between what was expected to happen with those two individuals and what the CPS have said over the last 24 hours. And Parliament resumes on Monday, and there are questions that the Prime Minister needs to answer on this.
25:14Emily Maitlis:I understand questions, but that's a shoot from the hip. I mean, she did the same when she accused the Transport Secretary of being fired for stealing a phone. She'll know what happened in that situation. It wasn't that the Transport Secretary stole a phone, and yet you had a very abbreviated lie right there in the conference hall.
25:31John Glen:Are you accusing the Leader of the Opposition of lying, Emily?
25:34Emily Maitlis:I don't understand why she would say that.
25:37John Glen:You put these questions to me. I think we all know that you need to speak clearly. The reason why the transport secretary, Louise Haig, is no longer the transport secretary is because of dishonesty in her past that was not known about.
25:52Emily Maitlis:Exactly. That's my point. So why don't you? I mean, isn't it important that the leader of the opposition gets these things right? Well, I think it's I think it's important that we have ministers in the cabinet who are honest and true.
26:04John Glen:And she went through a large number of ministers who have left office. You know, that deputy prime minister just about barely over a year into office who has to leave office because she didn't pay the correct tax. The homeless minister who left when she essentially evicted a tenant after putting up their rents when previously in the run up to the election, you know, their narrative was somewhat different when criticising the previous government. OK.
26:32Emily Maitlis:And a last thought, John, just to get into the weeds a little bit on this. She talked about university. She said one third of graduates see no economic return on their degrees. We'll shut down rip off courses and use the money to double the apprenticeship courses. What are those rip off courses? Because the briefing was that she was going to shut down English degrees. I mean, that must be wrong, right? Or does she mean that?
26:54John Glen:I don't think you'd expect me a few minutes after the speech to go through every course with you. But I think there's a general sense that the imperative for everyone or 50 % of people to go to university has not actually resulted in positive outcomes for many of those young people.
27:08Emily Maitlis:But does she mean shutting down English degrees?
27:10John Glen:Well, I think...
27:11Emily Maitlis:That's an easy one, John.
27:12John Glen:I think that's very unlikely, but I think there are courses that are out there that, you know, we know when people leave university with 40 ,000, 45 ,000, 50 ,000 of debt with very few enhancements to their employment prospects, it seems pretty common sense to say, look, there are more productive ways. Is she going to give us a list then?
27:34Emily Maitlis:I mean, will we get a list of the courses she'd like to have shut down?
27:36John Glen:I mean, you know, we've just announced a whole series of policies. You wouldn't expect me as the parliamentary private secretary to give you chapter and verse on every single one of them. But of course the relevant shadow ministers will be able to develop what's been announced today into thorough policies that we will implement in government. We're not in government at the moment. But what we do want to do and what opposition has got to do all the time is hold the government to account but also come up with a clear alternative. And it's right that you're scrutinising that.
28:06Emily Maitlis:Just to end, the match attack card, which is morale. Maybe it's the top Trump's card. Morale. Where would you rate morale in this conference Wednesday lunchtime?
28:17John Glen:I think it is much, much higher than anyone anticipated. I came out of the hall and about 20 colleagues said that speech was brilliant. Many of them who are people that, you know, have been anxious in recent days and weeks. The reaction from so many of the party members, the councillors that have come here loyally in these difficult times for the party has also been phenomenal. Look, it's been a tough journey we've gone on to get to this point. It was a professional conference, well-organised, two leaders' speeches and serious policy work.
28:53Emily Maitlis:Notably in that speech, does she think he's not a threat?
28:56John Glen:She referred to all the alternatives available, but I think what we as Conservative Party, as the official opposition in the House of Commons have got to do, is oppose the government, hold them to account on difficult matters like you raised with me, but also develop a clear, coherent set of policies and a whole range of policy areas that will resonate with the public and give us the pathway back to the next general election. And I think she's done that extremely well. She hasn't been leader for 12 months yet. She said she wanted to diagnose the problem. She's set out a blueprint today. Of course there are questions that will need to be answered in full and the process around that, and that will happen.
29:36John Glen:but to answer your question the mood here is very very good much stronger than i feared people were predicting that this wasn't going to go well it has gone well there's nowhere near the speculation despite all the efforts of many in the media to try and make a story about certain members of the shadow cabinet um you know not being behind her you know i heard rob jenrick uh address the media after the speech he's fully supportive of her as he's indicated throughout the week and you know as i saw in shadow cabinet at the end of last week when she unveiled the proposal on echr everyone signed up to it she's doing a professional job the country are getting to know her and we hope to earn back the support and of the electorate which is you know we don't take for granted but i believe we will get there john glenn really appreciate your
30:29Emily Maitlis:Thank you.
30:29Jon Sopel:And if you want more on the Tory party conference, go to LBC, available free on our Global Player app. And in a moment, Gary Neville, flags and hysteria.
30:52Kemi Badenoch:The News Agents.
30:54Jon Sopel:There has been a lot of debate in recent weeks over flags, the St George's flag, the Union flag, whether they are a threat, a cudgel or whether they are just simply an expression of pride in the nation. In Manchester, of course, last week on Yom Kippur, two people were killed by an Islamist extremist who drove a car into a synagogue and then was eventually shot by police. And Gary Neville, the former Manchester United and England defender, was in Manchester and was reflecting on some of this. And boy, has he provoked a storm.
31:34Kemi Badenoch:So I've just left my house and walking into the office, waking up, obviously, seeing the news last night and the news this morning dominated by the horrific attacks within the Jewish community just about a mile from here. and was driving home from Salford City last night. I was driving back to Salford City, going down a Littleton Road, probably 50 or 60 Union Jack flags. And on the way back, I went down the parallel road, which is Beringue Road, which has got the Jewish community right at its heart. And they're out on the streets, defiant, not hiding or in fear. And I just kept thinking as I was driving home last night, that we're all being turned on each other.
32:23Kemi Badenoch:And the division that's being created is absolutely disgusting. Mainly created by angry, middle-aged white men who know exactly what they're doing. Funnily enough, on one of my development sites last week, there was a Union Jack flag put up, and I took it down instantly. and some people might be watching this and thinking well Gary not very patriotic I've played my country 85 times I love my country I love Manchester and I love England but I've been building in this city for 15-20 years and there's no one put a union jack flag up in the last 15-20 years so why do you need to put one up now?
33:06Lewis Goodall:Yes and look as ever with these debates Gary Neville is saying what he thinks it's his property site he can do what he wants and yet the right to have an opinion, private opinion, and also to sort of do what you want on your own private property seems to be rather contested. And it's being contested by relatively unlikely sources, including Nigel Farage, who has popped up on this. He's been quite quiet, relatively quiet all week during the Conservative Party conference, but he's decided to pop up in the last 24 hours or so and not attack Cami Baden-Ock, but instead attack the former England footballer Gary Neville.
33:39He's blaming middle-aged white men,
33:42Kemi Badenoch:the people that actually pay for Sky Sports, pay his salary. He's blaming them for all the division, not some evil, crazed, mad Islamist who went out to kill innocent people. I'll tell you what, this Gary Neville is so detached from reality, so detached from the average football fan, it is not true. I'm amazed that Sky Sports keep him on. What do you think? So much for free speech, huh?
34:08Jon Sopel:So much for free speech and almost kind of, right, Sky, you should sack him. I mean, it's cancel culture once again, cancel culture once again. Look, the guy was talking about division in society and being upset about division in society. I mean, surely we can all rally around that flag. He's making a point about Union Jacks and I've seen other people go absolutely berserk. Why aren't you upset about the Palestinian flag? I mean, we can be upset about flags being used as a source of division, whether it's a Palestinian flag, whether it's something else, whether it's the Union flag. You know, flags are great symbols of kind of national pride.
34:46Jon Sopel:But it's undoubtedly true that at times they can be used as a cudgel by which you intimidate other communities.
34:55Lewis Goodall:I just think this stuff is born of actually a deeply shallow patriotism. like the thing about patriotism is like any conviction if you feel it deeply you don't need to spend the entire time reminding everybody else how you feel about it i'm deeply patriotic i love britain love my country love its history and i'm enough of a patriot by the way to recognize when we've come up short and when we've done really bad things and that still doesn't mean doesn't mean we're not a great country for recognizing those things it means we're greater because we're honest enough to look at ourselves and go, yeah, that was bad, but look at these other great things we've done.
35:30Lewis Goodall:We don't need to, you know, flagellate ourselves all of the time. And likewise, in the same way, I don't need to put... I mean, you can if you want, by the way. I'm not... Feel free to do it. But I don't need to put, like, a Union Jack on my lapel or wear Union Jack socks. This is like... You know, for me, this is childlike. It's childlike behaviour and actually reveals a sort of shallowness of patriotism rather than the deep conviction of patriotism. And likewise, that is why, historically speaking at least, we have not been the sort of country partly because we have actually the way that we view our patriotism is sort of deeper and not so shallow we haven't felt the need every other day to have flags hanging from every government building from the lampposts and wherever not against necessarily doing it i think it's fine but we haven't felt the need to do that historically we're not like the united states or even like france or anything like that it's not been our way and so given that is the context a lot of these people do know that it can make some people feel uncomfortable or rather there can be bad faith actors who use it to try and make others feel uncomfortable and you can have two thoughts in your head at the same time as to both believe that the flag is a symbol of togetherness that we should be proud of it when we use it and recognize that there are some bad faith actors who choose to use it vexatiously or badly that's fine and at the end of the day gary neville if it's his private property and that's his view i'm sorry i thought this is the problem with the sort of radical right at the moment they are losing all sense of the liberalism and all sense of pluralism.
36:52Lewis Goodall:Gary Neville can do what he want on his own property and he has the right to say what he wants to say. Feel free to disagree with it, but to call them for the councillor his cancellation because if he's taking down a flag on his own property site is just absurd and extreme. But Lewis, if you want to hear an example
37:10Jon Sopel:of the hyperventilation that is taking place among some corners for what Gary Neville has said, It's just worth listening to Jeremy Kyle absolutely losing his shit on talk TV.
37:26Kemi Badenoch:We're being turned against each other, mainly by angry middle-aged white men who deem it OK to put up flags. And then went on to say that he owns several buildings in Manchester where he's been building for 15 or 20 years. And he saw one the other day and he took it down. So disrespectful does he think it is. I'd love to know your thoughts on this. I'm not going to sit here and say stick to football. Everybody's entitled to their opinion. But entitled's the word I want to give you, right? Why am I surrounded by people like Neville, who have made millions on the back of working-class people, people they're supposed to represent, people they're supposed to respect?
37:59Kemi Badenoch:Does he actually believe that middle-aged white men raising flags is causing division in this country? I said to him, and I'll say to you guys now on this show, three hours after those poor, poor Jewish people on Yom Kippur were murdered by that terrorist called Jihad. Make up your own lines, for God's sake. Shouldn't have been in the country, but there we go. A protest march not three hours later, not a mile away, with people waving Palestinian flags and shouting obscenities. But Gary Neville wouldn't mention that, would he know? But if you stood up and you went, I think it's disgraceful that these people are marching and inciting violence.
38:35Kemi Badenoch:People like Neville would go, oh, this is unfair, but it's all right.
38:39Lewis Goodall:Jeremy Kyle famously never having tried to divide anyone, of course. The healer, Jeremy Kyle. Great healer, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great shaman of our time. Look, I think that the reason people like Kyle and others on the sort of online, you know, the people who sort of fish in these seas, I think one of the reasons they hate and so dislike someone like Neville, the same reason they dislike and hated so much when the England football players were coming out and talking about racism and taking India, and, you know, without getting into all of the context where that took place, the reason they dislike them so much is because what you can't actually say to Gary Neville, and yeah, they bring up his money in Sky Sports and whatever, all of which he's earned, by the way.
39:19Lewis Goodall:Like, they can't say to Gary Neville, and they can't say to the England football lads, they can't turn around and go, you aren't authentically of the people that we claim to represent. These are fellas, including Neville, you know, they've literally played for their country, right? The idea that they're not patriotic, they've literally played with the flag of St. George on their chest, on their armband, whatever, so many times, right? And what really winds up people like Kyle, and to a lesser extent Farage and others, is that they can't do what they do to people like us or they do to journalists.
39:51Lewis Goodall:Metropolitan elite. You metropolitan liberal elite, you don't represent anyone. We authentically represent people. It pisses them off so much. It gets inside their heads. They live rent free inside their heads because no one can turn around to these fellows, despite the fact they're very wealthy, because meritocratically they have completely earned it. right they cannot turn around to them and go you represent no one because usually they're from working class backgrounds and in many ways they're working class kind of cultural mores and all of these sorts of things and they are and moreover they are way more respected and beloved by working class people than any of their critics so it winds them up and that is why they constantly go for them because they represent a cultural and political threat because they want them to think what they
40:33Jon Sopel:think and very often they don't absolutely spot on and they also kind of think that there's something rum about all these working class people having so much money i mean how yeah exactly how dare gary neville have been so successful and be a property developer that's not it reveals them
40:49Lewis Goodall:it reveals them it winds them up and it reveals who they truly are well i think everyone should
40:53Jon Sopel:calm down and i think that if people are out there gary neville or whoever and preaching the idea that we should be more united and less divided. God bless them. We'll be back in just a moment.
41:10Kemi Badenoch:News you can trust and the conversations that matter.
41:13Emily Maitlis:With award-winning journalists at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff.
41:24Kemi Badenoch:Discover how today's story affects your life.
41:27Emily Maitlis:Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app.
41:31Kemi Badenoch:LBC, leading Britain's conversation.
41:39Kemi Badenoch:The News Agents.
41:41Lewis Goodall:Well, that is the Conservative Party conference over for another year. So we'll get Lady Maitlis in her full Thatcher regalia back tomorrow.
41:48Jon Sopel:I wonder whether she'll come back with the Lady Thatcher mosaic that was behind her. Well, I hope so.
41:52Lewis Goodall:We'll put it behind her all the time. Exactly, wherever she goes. Yeah, exactly. And we will also be speaking tomorrow to one of the candidates for the deputy leadership of the Labour Party, Lucy Powell. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
42:07Jon Sopel:This has been a Global Player original production.
From the publisher
To rapturous applause and a full throated national anthem, Kemi Badenoch delivered the speech that may just have saved her job.
She promised to end stamp duty, abolish VAT on private schools and scrap farmers inheritance tax. She will also ban doctors from striking, cancel university courses she doesn’t rate, and dismantle the structure of Britains human rights protection.
Will this move the dial for a party struggling to make its voice heard? Emily, Lewis and Jon discuss from inside and outside the conference hall. And we talk to John Glen - Kemi’s right hand man in parliament.
Visit our new website for more analysis and interviews from the team: https://www.thenewsagents.co.uk/
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/