In short
Leo Varadkar argues liberal democracy is under backlash from populism and authoritarianism, and says centre-left/centre-right parties must fight back with a new, more populist-style communication and concrete cost-of-living policies. He discusses Trump’s evolution, Starmer’s challenges, LGBT rights’ setbacks, and lessons from Brexit and Ireland’s political transformation.
Guests
Leo Varadkar, former Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of Ireland; centre-right Fine Gael leader; half-Indian gay man who entered politics young and was not publicly out early. Interviewer is The News Agents host (Tom Swarbrick/Sheila Fogarty/Andrew Marr appear as intro/outro voices in the transcript).
Key claims
“Conservative Party is dead” (in Europe/UK terms); populists thrive by grievance and elite-vs-masses framing; liberals became “not fun” and over-policed acceptable speech; authoritarianism rises when democracy weakens; Trump is intelligent but not knowledgeable, and has shifted toward using trans issues and stronger executive power.
Notable examples
Ireland’s legal change on homosexuality and divorce; Hungary’s possible democratic reversal; Starmer’s Ukraine diplomacy; Trump’s post-Jan 6 loyalist circle; Brexit negotiations (Johnson vs May); US figures like Mamdani and a Texas candidate using biblical language; Ten Commandments school debate.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOLeo Varadkar's Political Journey
3:21 to 4:50
Discussing Varadkar's rise and experiences in politics.
“Leo, Leo Varadkar, former Taoiseach, what should I call you?”
The Volatility of Modern Politics
4:50 to 6:40
Exploring the changes in political dynamics and the challenges faced by leaders.
“It's going to be much harder for people to just get elected all the time.”
The Appeal of Introverted Politicians
6:40 to 8:06
Varadkar reflects on the nature of introversion in political roles.
“Is it maybe the case that maybe politicians on your side of things don't have the sort of staying power that some of the...”
Understanding the Role of Empathy in Politics
8:06 to 10:22
A discussion on the importance of empathy for politicians and how it can affect public perception.
“disappoint their most radical supporters, make real budgetary decisions.”
The Shift in Liberal Discourse
10:22 to 13:54
Analyzing how liberal politics has evolved and the challenges of modern discourse.
“But then there are other types of politicians more common in other countries as well.”
The Challenge of Being Viewed as Elite
14:00 to 15:00
Exploration of perceptions surrounding elites and their disconnect with the public.
“And you have to be mindful of that, that you don't allow people to present you as an elite.”
Learning from Populist Politicians
15:00 to 16:50
Discussion on politicians who effectively connect with the public through relatable issues.
“Macron, not now, but at the start, I think was able to galvanise people in the centre, people who had an outward view of the world.”
The Evolution of Political Communication
16:50 to 18:30
Analysis of how politicians must adapt their messaging style in today's media landscape.
“I don't think that has to go to the extent of demonising your opponents.”
Justin Trudeau and Political Skills
18:30 to 20:30
A look at the political skills of Justin Trudeau and lessons from his tenure.
“because he was young, interesting, often funny, brilliant in the media, bilingual, but also had a real set of policies and values that he wanted to implement and a vision for Canada, which he did.”
Navigating Change in Ireland's Social Landscape
20:30 to 22:40
Reflections on the significant social changes in Ireland and the impact on politics.
“But it is easy to forget how much Ireland has changed.”
Show all 22 chapters
Reflections on LGBT Rights Progress
22:40 to 24:40
Discussion on the progress and challenges facing LGBT rights globally.
“You know, the late 1920s, the 1930s was a period of pretty relative liberalism.”
The Changing Nature of Donald Trump
24:40 to 27:20
Insights into how Trump's approach and views have evolved since his presidency.
“I'm not going to pretend to be able to read the man's mind.”
Geopolitical Dynamics and Leadership
27:20 to 28:00
Examination of how current leaders manage relations with Trump and the US.
“Do you think he had any real conception?”
Trump and Starmer's Political Maneuvering
28:00 to 30:31
Discusses the political dynamics between Trump, Starmer, and the importance of loyalty in politics.
“So, you know, that's kind of worrying and then conflict from one issue to the next.”
Trump and Starmer's Political Maneuvering
30:37 to 30:58
Discusses the political dynamics between Trump, Starmer, and the importance of loyalty in politics.
Observations on Democracy and Ireland
30:58 to 34:22
Explores the strength of democracy in Ireland compared to other regions and the effects of living standards on political stability.
“Ireland is one, Scandinavian countries and so on.”
The State of British Politics
34:22 to 36:33
Analyzes the current trends in British politics and the potential implications for Ireland.
“I'll talk about Brexit briefly in a moment, but just on contemporary British politics.”
Brexit Negotiations and Leadership Dynamics
36:33 to 42:03
Discusses the contrasting approaches of Theresa May and Boris Johnson during Brexit negotiations.
“Starmer and his team almost sought an election without a mandate.”
Brexit and Northern Ireland's Future
42:03 to 46:04
Explore the implications of Brexit on Northern Ireland and the UK.
“publicly so were you really were you naive perhaps to trust him well i didn't really trust him but But he was willing to sign up to an agreement that met my needs and satisfied Ireland's red line.”
Views on Gaza and US Policy
46:04 to 48:02
Discusses the ongoing conflict in Gaza and critiques US foreign policy.
“I don't think it's inevitable, but I do think it's probable in my lifetime.”
Political Freedom and Future Aspirations
48:02 to 49:55
Leo Varadkar shares his thoughts on political involvement and personal freedom.
“Is it something you welcomed, Britain's recognition, or is it too little too late?”
Political Freedom and Future Aspirations
50:40 to 51:09
Leo Varadkar shares his thoughts on political involvement and personal freedom.
“Packed with taste, but without all the net carbs.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Lewis Goodall:Bite into a stacked sandwich made with Hero Bread. And the only thing you'll think is delicious. You won't think it has up to 19 grams protein, 11 to 32 grams of fiber, or just 0 to 5 grams net carbs. But it does. Hero Bread. No compromises. Just loaves, buns, tortillas, bagels, and noodles packed with flavor. Right now, get 10 % off at Hero.co with code IHEART. That's H-E-R-O dot C-O code IHEART. All figures per serving of Hero Bread. See Nutrition Facts on Hero.co. This is a Global Player original podcast. There's a battle for the soul of this country now as to what sort of country do we want to be because that toxic divide, that decline with reform, it's built on a sense of grievance, grievance politics, identifying something real for sure, but relying on the problem existing in order for their politics to persist.
0:56Lewis Goodall:and it's a very different choice. The choice before the electorate here at the next election is not going to be the traditional Labour versus Conservative. It's why I've said the Conservative Party is dead. Centre-right parties in many European countries have withered on the vine and the same is happening in this country. It's a different proposition and therefore becomes a binary argument as to the future of our country. That was the Prime Minister speaking at the Global Progress Action Summit. it's exciting a meeting of global progressive leaders on friday billed as a progressive fight back an attempt something we've talked about on this show a lot to reframe his politics and government as a moral and political riposte to the radical right rather than merely an attack on their competence one of the problems for starmer is that there aren't that many examples of success he can look to in that endeavour.
1:53Lewis Goodall:Someone who, as you'll hear, isn't short of advice, of a diagnosis of the ills of liberal politics, is Leo Varadkar, the former Taoiseach Prime Minister of Ireland. In so many ways, Varadkar's story embodies that liberalism. Though a member of Fina Gael, broadly speaking, Ireland's centre-right party, his assent as a half-Indian gay man to the head of government of what was once thought to be one of the most socially conservative countries in Europe surprised the world and seemed to embody the triumph of cultural liberalism everywhere in perpetuity. Those years, a decade or so ago, feel so distant now.
2:36Lewis Goodall:Varadkar himself left the stage young, saying that he'd had his fill of politics, but not before he became well known to the British public after the Brexit referendum, as the face of our nearest neighbour buffeted almost as much as ourselves by the vagaries of our withdrawal. He's left elected politics, but not politics itself, not the debate on its future and the fear he has of a descent to illiberalism, if not authoritarianism of a sort. He's just published a book, Speaking My Mind, about his political life and he's stepped into the newsagent studio to share his reflections on that extraordinary journey.
3:13Lewis Goodall:The politicians he's known along the way, where politics has been, where it is, where it might yet be. And advice for his successors on the centre of how to survive and how to fight back. Welcome to The News Agents.
3:33Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. Well, Leo Varadkar joins us now. Leo, Leo Varadkar, former Taoiseach, what should I call you? Leo's fine. Leo's fine. All right, Mr. Ray. Is my name. Yeah, right, Leo. Well, you've got your book Speaking My Mind, which is a really... As someone who reads a lot of political memoirs, I think this is actually something quite different, actually, by comparison to a lot of them. Maybe it's a generational thing, which we can talk about. But before we sort of get on to the book, do you miss power? No. You don't miss power? No, and I thought I would. You know, I was psychologically prepared for 20 or 30 % regret, and no, I don't.
4:09Lewis Goodall:And I thought you might say that. And that's kind of the kind of paradox of you that I think sort of comes across in the book in a way, which is you're someone who clearly was transfixed by power from a very young age and by politics from a very young age. And in some ways that sort of reminded me of myself as a childhood being sort of transfixed and interested in politics. But you actively wanted to pursue it. You obtain it and achieve it at a very young age, you know, you're still in your 30s. and you would think therefore that having achieved this thing you had been captivated by that it would kind of completely fulfill you and yet i get the sense that certainly towards the end at least it didn't of course it's about service as well as power um but i loved it and i loved it for a long time and even though i got in early and out early it wasn't a short innings you know i first ran for election 25 years ago 20 years old crazy didn't get elected um but i did the next time so you know i was over 20 years in elected office do you regret going into it so yeah no i don't um and it wasn't my plan to the extent that i had a plan i thought i'd you know get to parliament maybe a bit later in my 30s rather than my 20s and so on but opportunities arise when they do not when they suit and an open seat came up and i went for it and you just don't know if i hadn't gone for it somebody else might have got it and they might still be there so uh you just have to grab the chances when they come i'm just quite struck just just on this theme briefly about kind of power and youth because i'm struck there are quite a few politicians of your sort of vintage who went into politics young and have kind of left it young quite a lot of politicians who go into it young who don't do the kind of joe biden and go into it young and just stick in it for half a century do you think that's because politics has changed or do you think it's because or is it a sort of lack of willpower by comparison to politicians of an older generation?
5:59I think it's two things. I think politics has changed. It's much more volatile. It's going to be much harder for people to just get elected all the time. You know, safe seats and so on, I think. You saw that in your own elections, the last two seats that had never flipped in decades and centuries flipped. So one, politics is more volatile and it'd be very hard to just get elected that many times. But I think secondly, it is generational. The idea of a job or career for life of any sort is much less likely than it was in the past. For my parents' generation, for my grandparents' generation, having a career, having a job for life was the norm.
6:36Now it's not anymore. So it's not surprising that's reflected in politics.
6:40Lewis Goodall:I think we'll talk about this in more detail. But when you consider the clash that there is now, one of the defining political clashes of our time is clearly between sort of anti-system populist politics and between politics, for want of a better expression of the centre, of what was once the mainstream of the system itself. Is it maybe the case that maybe politicians on your side of things don't have the sort of staying power that some of the... If we think about the sort of populists of the world and the staying power they've had, you know, Trump, Le Pen, Farage, maybe going back to the original one, Berlusconi, you know, these are politicians who basically build up a profile and a career and a sort of sense of personality over a very long time.
7:22Lewis Goodall:Maybe that's part of their appeal, part of their winning formula. Maybe you shouldn't throw in the towel, is what I'm saying. Look, I haven't thought about that before. It's a good point and it's an interesting thesis. I think, though, the difference with them is, with the exception of President Trump, who's really only into his fifth year of holding office, and a split term, is most of those people have never held political office. They've always been on the outside. Yeah, so opposition is much easier than government. It's very easy to describe a problem. Not that hard to come up with solutions, very different to make them work and implement them.
8:01So, you know, I wonder how long some of those people would or will last if they actually had to serve a term in government and make decisions, disappoint their most radical supporters, make real budgetary decisions. I'm not so sure.
8:15Lewis Goodall:Well, we might have an insight into that before too long. Just going back to your life and your career, though, So you obviously transfixed bi-politics as a young boy. What was it about politics that you found so captivating? Because you weren't from a political family. You caught a very different figure within Irish politics by comparison to pretty much all of the Taoiseachs who came before you. What was it about politics? And was it Irish politics or was it just politics in general? No, it was politics in general. And, you know, I was always very interested in what was going on in England and around the world.
8:45You used to watch BBC Westminster and... A deafness used to listen to Today in Parliament on BBC Radio 4, which I know sounds really tragic for a teenager. I'm afraid you may have a fellow, yeah, I've seen you speaking to the converted here, fellow weirdo. And sometimes, sometimes, you know, British and American politics is more interesting. You know, American presidential elections are hugely dramatic, the primaries, all those things. So, yeah, generally interest in politics. I think it was the magic of it. I start the book describing me going down to vote with my mum back in the 1987 general election in Ireland.
9:17And just being really excited by elections, the posters, people who are regular people being transformed into leaders through the power of democracy and voting. I loved the whole election process, the mathematics of it as well. It was probably later on that I got more interested in policy and the government end.
9:35Lewis Goodall:So here's something I've actually wanted to put to politicians like you. And actually, you may be, well, you're definitely one that I've thought about this of before, which is there's a really interesting, again, as someone just captivated by politics. There's always been something that's really interested me about the sort of status of the introverted politician. Yeah. Which you are, right? I mean, you talk about that in the book as well. You're a politician, and particularly by comparison even maybe to your predecessors as Taoiseach in Ireland. You know, if you think about some of the... There's a particular type of Irish politician who have tended to gravitate towards that job, the kind of garrulous raconteur, kind of, you know, talker, great talker, whether it's someone like Charles Hawley or your hero, Garrett Fitzgerald or Bertie Ahern, you know, it's that kind of quite extroverted, big personality type.
10:20Lewis Goodall:And obviously that's general in politics. They're attracted to politics. But then there are other types of politicians more common in other countries as well. Someone like Theresa May, for example, someone like Keir Starmer, you know, someone who are not actually extroverted. And yet you're drawn into politics, which is in many ways a very dramatic theatrical arena and which requires that kind of, you might think, extroversion. So why? Yeah. Explain that paradox to me. I'm not sure introverted politicians are all that rare. No. You know, Nicola Sturgeon, her book describes herself as one. I think she says.
10:53Lewis Goodall:Well, she says she was always pleased that you were in a room with her, if you ever met, because she said that you were even more introverted than me. Yeah. That doesn't mean that either of us hid in the corner and didn't speak to anyone. But, you know, we were probably a bit introverted. I think Obama as well would be an introverted personality type. But I think for those of us who are a bit introverted, what does appeal to us is the debate, being in the media, interviews, debates in Parliament, argument, even policy subcommittee meetings, where we have a difficulty. and what certainly didn't come naturally for me was going out into a crowd and shaking everyone's hand and introducing myself and that aspect of it.
11:39Lewis Goodall:Do you think that held you back? Well, it obviously didn't hold you back from becoming a T-shirt, but do you think it held you back in other ways in your political career? I think it did because there were times when even supporters of mine would have said that I was, you know, aloof or, you know, failed to show or demonstrate empathy around a certain issue. Not that I didn't feel for the issue or wasn't empathetic, I just didn't display it. And I had to kind of get better at a lot of that, even just kind of small things, you know, walking into a building like this building today, knowing that you should try and say hello to people, you know, shake hands with the person behind the security desk, that type of thing, which just wouldn't have come naturally to me before.
12:21You had to learn. I had to learn all that, yeah. And I'm kind of sorry I didn't realise I ought to have learned earlier because I think I wrongly saw a lot of that as being performative and not being genuine or authentic. But that was wrong. Like, you know, how you make people feel is really important and not just what you say to them. And I had to learn all that. Oh, they're really good at it. They're funny. They speak in language that people understand. And I think that's one thing for those of us who are in the centre or call us left liberal, whatever you want to call us. we stopped being the people who were fun at some point I don't know when that happened
12:58Lewis Goodall:Why do you think that was? Not sure there was a time certainly in Ireland that if you were going to be denounced or you were going to be cancelled it was going to be by the right by the Catholic Church and their supporters were going to say this opinion is unacceptable that person is excommunicated and I think in the past decade or so maybe there is an overreach by those of us who are liberals I don't think I'm particularly guilty of it But I'm saying more as a group that we became the ones who said what words you were allowed to use, what opinions were acceptable and engaged in cancel culture.
13:33Now, both sides do it, by the way. And we really see the MAGA movement doing that at the moment in America. But I think that's something we need to probably reset. Almost as if that test is as to as to which which of the candidates would you like to go for a drink with? That's still really important.
13:48Lewis Goodall:It was almost as if that side of the argument allowed the other side to be the subversive ones. And if you're subversive, you've got a certain sort of countercultural power on your side. Yeah, well, a key part of populism is the idea of elites versus masses. And you have to be mindful of that, that you don't allow people to present you as an elite. And any time I hear people talking about elites, I think, oh, here we go again. This is such a trotted out old argument. and, you know, billionaires trying to think that they're not part of some sort of elite is very strange to me, but they get away with it.
14:20But perhaps we open the door to that.
14:21Lewis Goodall:Do you think there's anyone right now on your side of that divide who gets that, who is showing that sort of personality and communication skill and is sort of learning from? Because one thing I always reflect on is, this isn't, as you've just alluded to in a way, Leo, like this isn't a new thing now. You know, these debates have been going on a long time. And Trump was first elected in 2016, right? 90s, for instance, that appeared on the scene in 2015, Brexit in 2016, Boris Johnson's... But it feels as if, in a way, the sort of liberal side of the argument, whatever, for want of any better expression, the non-populist side of the argument, hasn't really progressed very far in terms of learning the lessons from the other side.
14:59We're on the back foot, for sure. We're not beaten. Macron, not now, but at the start, I think was able to galvanise people in the centre, people who had an outward view of the world. and a global view as to what France should be and the kind of country it is. Interesting to watch some of the new emerging politicians in the US. Somebody like Mamdani, who is running for mayor in New York, hasn't been elected yet, but a very interesting politician, somebody who uses social media really well, is always smiling, is determined to focus on the issues like cost of living, transport, housing, while people try to make him concentrate on other issues like Gaza or so on.
15:40It's not that he doesn't have strong views on that, but he's making sure that he focuses on the things that people care about most. There's a guy running for Senate in Texas, his name is James Tallarico, I think, and he's one to watch, I think, and he's actually using biblical language because he would recognise that huge numbers of people in Texas are religious and is using biblical language right back at them, which is really... Probably there's a course out there. One thing he did recently I thought was really interesting, there's a whole campaign in southern states in America, or red states to put the Ten Commandments up on the wall of school buildings and in classrooms.
16:14And he really pushed against those politicians and asked them what they were doing to actually follow the Ten Commandments. Suggested, for example, that we could put up on the stock exchange, you know, the section of the Bible where Jesus overturns the tables of the money lenders. You know, why do we do that too? And so I think there is potential for people to come through with a new message, but it'll have to be a new message.
16:34Lewis Goodall:But populists are coarse, aren't they? They're often coarse and earthy and, as you say, funny. Do you think that, I mean, it's interesting that, for example, Gavin Newsom has been tweeting like Trump, talking like Trump. Do you think that's what politicians on your side of that fence have to do? They have to sort of, in a sense, lower the tone in the way that their opponents have done? Yeah, I'm afraid so. I think we probably have to do that. I don't think that has to go to the extent of demonising your opponents. That's not necessary. But definitely the way you communicate. Like I remember when I first started off using Twitter as it was at the time.
17:13And I was one of the first in Ireland to really use it. And being criticised by older, more experienced politicians who actually seriously thought that I should shut down my Twitter account. And it was inappropriate for a member of parliament or a cabinet member to be telling people my thoughts in real time on Twitter. And now you never catch on there. But there you go. So now that's normal behaviour for heads of government or even negotiations playing out in real time on social media. That would never have happened before. And I think it's a mistake to think you can turn back time and put that back in the box.
17:45The printing press revolutionised politics because people could read things for themselves in their own language. Radio did too. The fireside chats, all that. Television debates. And the fact that people now get their information from a personal device in their hand. that is often adjusted for them is a reality now. And we have to capture that.
18:07Lewis Goodall:As someone, as you yourself said, had to learn some of the skills of politics. You've met a lot of politicians, both domestically and around the world. Which politician have you met do you think had the most complete set of those skills? Who as a sort of one politician to another, you kind of thought, wow, I wish I had a bit of that. Yeah. And of course, the answer I'm going to give you is the one that springs to mind, which is Justin Trudeau. because he was young, interesting, often funny, brilliant in the media, bilingual, but also had a real set of policies and values that he wanted to implement and a vision for Canada, which he did.
18:42But just like everyone, your time comes to pass. And he was Prime Minister of his country for nine years and probably should have gone a year or two early. And that was something, again, that was in my head. I see a number of very good politicians down the years, very skillful people like Bertie Hearn in my country, like Tony Blair in this country. And I think had they gone a year or two earlier, their legacy might have been stronger.
19:06Lewis Goodall:Obviously, in a way, your career embodies, and your whole life, really, it embodies, political life embodies the enormous change that we saw in Irish politics. I mean, particularly people on this side of the Irish Sea sometimes don't know or aren't aware just how conservative, with a small c, Ireland was until very, very recently. not necessarily in terms of social terms but in legal terms but also as you were growing up still a very conservative country dominated by the catholic church and yet suddenly people here and around the world when you're elected when you become t-shakes see a gay man leading ireland which took many people i think by surprise how was it navigating your political life particularly your early political life as a gay man and a gay man who wasn't out well i suppose i wasn't out so It tells its own tale.
20:01Yeah, it tells its own tale. I didn't feel comfortable that I could be. You have to come out yourself before you come out to other people. So that took a while.
20:08Lewis Goodall:Do you think if you had come out, say, when you were starting out in the Doyle, that would have been a problem? I don't actually, but I did at the time. And one or two politicians came out before I did. And part of the reaction to them, which was broadly positive and is from a traditionally centre-right, albeit liberal right party, the reaction really was fine. and that kind of helped it for me. But it is easy to forget how much Ireland has changed. So, you know, the Ireland that I grew up in the 1980s, in the early 1980s, it was illegal to be gay. Our homosexual acts anyway were illegal. You couldn't get divorced.
20:43You could rape your wife, beat your kids, and so could their teacher. That's in my lifetime. And things have changed fundamentally. But it didn't just happen all of a sudden. It was coming for a long time. A lot of it had to do with prosperity, people migrating and coming back home to Ireland with liberal ideas from places like England and America. And then, of course, the loss of confidence in the Catholic Church around the financial and child abuse scandals, which really meant that huge numbers of people just wouldn't agree or listen to what they would say anymore. And there are lots of great people in the church.
21:16Catholics have contributed enormously to our country, but it did totally shake confidence in them.
21:20Lewis Goodall:For a long time, particularly in the era of high liberalism, maybe the middle part of the last decade, 2014, 50. The great liberal era, I think they're calling it. The great liberal era. It implies it's over, I mean. Yeah, well, it feels like it. But it felt like for a long time, particularly from the end of the late 1980s and onwards, right up to the middle part of that decade, it felt like that there was a sort of whiggish kind of sense of progress, right? Particularly for people on the liberal side of things that, you know, much quoted, off-quoted Obama, MLK thing about, you know, the arc of history as long as it bends towards justice and this idea that there was an almost inexorable march to sort of greater liberalism and a greater acceptance of social right, gay people and so on.
22:01Lewis Goodall:It hasn't felt like that quite so much of late for obvious reasons. Indeed, even in the last week or two, we've been discussing more about LGBT rights. We've talked and seen the appalling assassination of Charlie Kirk. Now, Charlie Kirk was someone who did not share those views in many ways around gay rights and so on. Talked about it being an affliction. Nonetheless, obviously, he's being lauded as a sort of champion of free speech, etc, etc. How do you feel as a gay man, as a very leading gay politician, where do you think we're going on these questions of social justice, LGBT rights in particular?
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22:37I think the arc of history does bend towards progress and justice but there are always setbacks along the way and there are backlashes and they can be very deep there are roughly 30 countries in the world in which you can marry your same-sex partner there's roughly 70 in which it's illegal to be gay so that was the starting point 10 years ago so the fight is still very much underway in the West to defend what we have achieved and then in the rest of the world to try and bring things forward. I can give you a very pessimistic view. You know, the late 1920s, the 1930s was a period of pretty relative liberalism.
23:15You know, Berlin was one of the most avant-garde cities in the world. There was a Jewish finance minister in Germany, a Jewish prime minister in France, and things looked very different 10 years later. But 20 years after that, in the 60s, we had another period of liberalism. So the pendulum does swing back and forth. I fear we're in a period now that is reminiscent of the 1930s.
23:38Lewis Goodall:In what way? Essentially, the rise of authoritarianism, desire by a lot of people to have a strong leader and a strong government that just gets things done, even at the expense of democracy, despite people talking about free speech actually cracking down on it, which is what's happening in the US, attacking media freedom, attacking academic freedom. We see that in Russia. We see it in Hungary, other countries in Europe. We see it now in the US. all those things historically are preludes to the demise of democracy so the stakes are high but I like we're not beaten this still has to play out and even if you look at somewhere like like Hungary now which I think was one of the first countries in the west to go down authoritarian road there's a very good chance that if there are free and fair elections in Hungary next year that there'll be a change of government you know everybody has to every generation has to have the fight.
24:27It's never just won.
24:28Lewis Goodall:You knew Trump in Trump One. Do you think he's changed? I think he has, actually. I met him loads in America and on his visit to Ireland. I'm not going to pretend to be able to read the man's mind. I can't do that. But it's not just that the constraints aren't there. The first time there were checks and balances, the courts, the traditional Republican Party, the pre-Trump Republicans were still there. He had checks and balances and constraints that are no longer there. He's surrounded by people who stuck with him after January 6th, 7th, who are, you know, loyalists. But I think he has changed.
25:04He definitely seems to be very embittered by his loss of the presidency. Doesn't believe that he lost that election. And...
25:13Lewis Goodall:Do you think, having known him and spoken to him lots, do you think he genuinely believes that at this point? Yeah, I do, I do. It's not just a confection in his head. No, no. and also feels that the election was stolen from him, was very embittered during those four years when he was being pursued in the courts and I think really now wants to get back at enemies in a way that wasn't the case before and also has taken interest in issues that wouldn't have been the case before. Like we touched on LGBT issues. The Trump of eight years ago was an opponent of bathroom bans, said they were a terrible idea, North Carolina shouldn't do this, it's bad for business.
25:52now he's using the trans issue as a means to promote his political agenda. So he's changed on a few fronts and then much more willing to just do what he wants to do and see what the courts say later. There wasn't as much as that in the first term. So we see things like the use of legislation from hundreds of years ago to impose tariffs and to crack down on enemies. You didn't really see that in the first term. There's a willingness now to do those things.
26:18Lewis Goodall:You got on with it in the first term when you were there. I did. Well, you kind of have to. It was actually, it wasn't my job to go over to the White House and insult him. You know, when you're in politics, you have to try. You have to respect that other countries elect their leaders. He seemed to genuinely quite like him. It wasn't just. He is very, at least when I met him. I don't know why he's like now, but I think it's probably still true. Like he is very personable. He is very chatty. He is smart. He's intelligent. Because there's a kind of liberal critique that he's thick. Yeah. No, no, he's not.
26:48And it would be a huge mistake to underestimate the intelligence of this man. He's very smart. He knows how to talk to people, knows how to trigger them, knows how to distract them. He's a brilliant user of the new media. All that is very evident to me. This is not a stupid person by any means. This is a very smart person. What he isn't is knowledgeable. And that's a strange combination to be intelligent, but not to have much knowledge. Probably wouldn't. Or curiosity. Our curiosity, you know, and even going back to my conversations with them, you know, Ireland, UK, UK, Europe, Euro, not really sure what all those things are or who's in what.
27:23Do you think he had any real conception? Which countries have nuclear weapons, which don't, for example, is Spain a BRICS country. So not knowledgeable and not keen to learn.
27:31Lewis Goodall:What was his conception of Ireland? Did he have any understanding or conception of Ireland? He knew a bit about Ireland because he has a golf course in County Clare. So had been to Ireland and knew a bit about Ireland. But again, he has described his golf course in Ireland as being in the UK. And I don't necessarily think that was a slip of the tongue. And when we were talking about Brexit and the possibility of a hard border between North and South in our conversations, and this is on camera, I'm not sure if he was clear as to whether we were trying to build a border or whether we were trying to stop there being a border.
28:07So, you know, that's kind of worrying and then conflict from one issue to the next. but he is in many ways a little bit like a king more so than a politician and holds court and people need to show their loyalty and pay fealty and hold systems of patronage as well it's kind of what the American constitution was designed to avoid Do you think Stom is handling him well? You know I do I don't enjoy watching it you know seeing people buttering him up and having to be maybe a little bit sycophantic I understand why he's doing it America is the most preeminent by a mile military power in the world and a huge economy.
28:44We need their ongoing support in places like Ukraine. And I think that's where Prime Minister Starmer has been at his best in many ways, is trying to keep President Trump on side for European security, and particularly in relation to Ukraine. We saw that after Zelensky's dressing down in the Oval Office, among the people to act first and act most effectively was Prime Minister Starmer. So So I know he's getting a hard time for lots of things in the UK at the moment, perhaps for good reason. Being able to hold Putin at bay is so important for the future of our continent and the future of our freedoms.
29:15Lewis Goodall:Right, we will be back with more with Leo Varadkar right after this.
29:35Lewis Goodall:Good afternoon. I'm Sheila Fogarty. Very good afternoon to you. Tom Swarbrick with you here. Hello, this is Andrew Marr. Hello, you're listening to Sunday with me, Lewis Goodall. Find out what the story means for you. Listen on your radio on Global Player and our free LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation. Summer is here. At Orderly Meds, we know this time is a reminder that life is full of new beginnings. Whether you're celebrating the nice weather, starting a new chapter, planning a vacation, or simply looking ahead to what's next. This season can be the perfect time to invest in yourself and your health.
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30:57Lewis Goodall:the news agents you talk about the rise of authoritarianism and the weakness and frailty of democracy one place where democracy does not feel at least to me especially weak is ireland itself yes there have been problems particularly with relation more so in the last couple of years with regards to immigration asylum which we've seen in other parts of europe but there are a few countries in the world or in Europe where democracy does seem still reasonably robust. Ireland is one, Scandinavian countries and so on. Is that just because, I mean, when we look back, when historians look back in 70 years or 100 years or whatever it happens to be and think about this period, will they just simply say, well, this is all very simple.
31:33Lewis Goodall:The story of this period is basically in the places where you have rapidly declining or stagnant living standards like the UK. Democracy comes under really, really a serious strain. And in places where it hasn't, like the Republic of Ireland, where generally there was obviously the problem around 2008-9, but the economy has bounced back, living standards are way, way higher than they used to be. People are reasonably content with the democratic system. Or is there something else about Ireland? Well, I think democracy is still very strong here in the United Kingdom, by the way. I don't think the fact that reform is doing well in opinion polls means that your democracy is under threat and you have strong institutions and only a year ago had a peaceful change of government.
32:08You'll have interesting elections in Scotland and Wales next year as well. But to answer your question, I think what drives people to populism and to extremism, whether it's of the left or the right is a general dissatisfaction with the state of affairs, their living standards and the institutions that are supposed to be there to help them. So what has been a positive in Ireland is notwithstanding our problems, including our very severe housing crisis, real living standards have increased significantly in recent years and particularly during the cost of living crisis because we had the money to do so.
32:41We were able to help people with their energy bills, were able to bring in extra child supports, things like that, that I think made a difference. It's even though economists criticised us for it heavily, for, you know, giving financial help to people who maybe didn't always need it. I think that was necessary to fight back on populism. And when you ask President Trump why he thinks he won the election, he says two things, the price of groceries and migration. The Biden administration should have done more to help people, A, with the cost of living, and they should have acted on the border quickly.
33:10Lewis Goodall:Do you think Biden also made a mistake in allowing Elon Musk to take over Twitter? To allow one man to control something like that? How could he have stopped it? Antitrust on regulatory... Maybe. That it should be a public company? I remember the time it happened and I got this one totally wrong. Because I found Twitter to be very left-wing. Most people on it all the time would have been very critical of me from a left-wing perspective. And I thought, you know, Musk is going to take over. He might shake this up. I didn't think it would become what it has become, which is... Backing Tommy Robinson.
33:40Well, it amplifies extreme views and untrudes, you know, total untrudes all the time. But it's a really bad thing for the world that we have so many ridiculously rich people who are now engaged in politics and are interfering in the media. You know, when Elon Musk is making rockets and developing Starlink and so on, he's a genius and he is a genius and you can't criticize him for that. But when you see these very wealthy people getting involved in politics and media, it's scary. And I think it's happened before. If you look at the power of people like Hearst in the US or Rockefeller, people who were able to start wars essentially through their newspapers.
34:22Lewis Goodall:I mean, you were an observer, you already said, a close observer of British politics. Indeed, actually, you probably became better known than any Irish Taoiseach in recent decades as a result of the Brexit process, because it fell to you to try and sort it out, or at least to be the Irish interlocutor as part of all of these things. I'll talk about Brexit briefly in a moment, but just on contemporary British politics. What's your sense of where British politics is at at the moment? I mean, we just mentioned Tommy Robinson, of all people, apparently taking centre stage in British politics in a way that I don't think even six months ago anyone would have anticipated.
34:53Lewis Goodall:Elon Musk backing him at his rally at the weekend, his questions of free speech and so on, Starmer being in battle for Arjun Arise. what's your sense as a very close observer do you worry about where British politics is going? I do what happens in Britain affects Ireland very closely I do and what happens in Britain is the background music to what happens in Irish politics my grandmother used to say if Britain catches cold Ireland gets pneumonia that's when we were economically dependent on you so that's not as much an issue now but of course what happens here has a huge impact on Ireland and I am worried I'm not despondent though there's a lot to play out yet the next election is pretty far away.
35:32I saw in my country a left-wing populist party, Sinn Féin, lead the polls for a very long time and came in third place in terms of popular vote in the elections when they actually happened. So this is still playing out. It is very clearly very volatile. I saw that massive rally and it was avoided by reform. These are people who are to the right again of reform, which is interesting to see and can certainly get big numbers out on the streets, albeit in a city with eight million people or more. What would your advice to Stalin be? Oh, that's very, very tough. I think for him, he's, by the way, he's been great on Ireland.
36:08I have to give him credit for that. He's been great on Ukraine and that's why I don't want to say anything too negative about him. But I think the biggest problem that they've had is they got elected with a big majority but didn't seek a mandate. So if you go back to 1997, when Tony Blair got in, he didn't just get in with a big majority. He also had a programme written at the heart of Europe, Independent Central Bank, Devolution. They had huge plans. Starmer and his team almost sought an election without a mandate. It was just about getting the Conservatives out. And because they sought no mandate, had no programme, essentially, they're now just responding all the time.
36:49So they're responding to reform, they're responding to issues. One of the things I think they should have done is gone very straight to the people and said, Britain needs growth. What's the best way to get growth? It's to rejoin the single market. And I think they would still won the election had they done that, maybe with fewer seats. I think that's the kind of original sin. And I'm not sure how you fix that now. But the potential for the centre-centre-left going into the next election in Britain is not saying we're there to keep reform out. It's actually saying, well, we have a programme.
37:22Lewis Goodall:There's a lot of talk about, and we hear this from Farage, we hear it from Robert Jenrick, I think Kemi Badenock's going to do it, committing to withdraw the UK from the ECHR. Of course, ECHR is part, an actual quite central part of the Belfast Agreement, the Good Friday Agreement. What effect do you think that would have if a British government withdrew from the ECHR on that process? Yeah, well, look, I think the ECHR needs to be and the Refugee Convention needs to be modernised. So I'd prefer to see the UK trying to do that with other countries than withdrawing from it. And, you know, bear in mind, if they withdraw from it, they're not just withdrawing from a set of rules around asylum.
37:57It's a whole set of rights, you know, ranging from things like equal pay for men and women. And so the consequences are much greater than people may think in the UK withdrawing from European international law. And that debate needs to be had and spelled out to people. In relation to Northern Ireland, the ECHR is written into the Good Friday Agreement. I'd have to look at the exact provisions. You know, one thing that could happen and could be proposed is that the ECHR would still apply to Northern Ireland and not to Great Britain. But that creates all those Brexit-type problems again, applying a different set of European and international laws and rules to Northern Ireland, to the rest of the UK.
38:36Do you think Nigel Farage, if he were Prime Minister, would be an effective guarantor of that agreement and a good partner for the Republic? I don't. If he did become your Prime Minister, we'd have an obligation to work with him and deal with him, and we would. He has said interesting things about Ireland. he predicted unification in an interview with the Irish Times not that long ago and now he walked back from it but it was interesting that I'd never heard anybody who might be British Prime Minister, maybe I'm wrong but it was an interesting comment and he did subsequently kind of walk back from that so that potentially would indicate to me that maybe he's not all that concerned about Northern Ireland but let's see how that plays out
39:14Lewis Goodall:Just briefly on Brexit because they say you were the Taoiseach in charge at the time Working with Boris Johnson and Theresa May at the time, you actually say in the book that you actually found Johnson easier to work with than May. Some people might be quite surprised by that. Just explain what you mean. Yes, so Prime Minister May, who's a good person, honourable person, always knew he was still with her. She tended to stick to her briefs, stick to her lines, stick to her position. So you could meet her in a tête -à-tête, which is often how politicians move things on. It's the two of you and nobody else in the room.
39:43You can have the theoretical conversation. you know if I said X would you say Y that type of conversation that you can only have when it's just the two of you she would always stick to her brief would often remind you what she said in her speech last week you know this is the position and that's just it so I found it hard to move things on yeah now look maybe I was just as rigid so that's obviously fair for her to say and not me whereas Boris was definitely more flexible willing to concede things she wouldn't concede which is separate arrangements for Northern Ireland versus the rest of the UK.
40:18Could you believe that?
40:19Lewis Goodall:Because, I mean, without going back into the weeds of all of this, I mean, Theresa May had said, basically, that the agreement that Boris Johnson eventually agreed to, no British Prime Minister could ever accede to and agree to. Boris Johnson comes along. I remember being at the Conservative Party conference in 2019 and he was there at a DUP rally reception and they were all there together and sort of cheering together and basically saying, you know, never, never, never, etc. A week later, I think it was, you were in the Wirral, or on the Wirral with him, basically agreeing to the very thing that the DUP most abhorred or the idea that most abhorred.
40:50Lewis Goodall:I mean, could you believe it? Could you believe at the time that he was agreeing to it? Yes. I suppose perhaps the biggest difference between Prime Minister May and former Prime Minister May and former Prime Minister Johnson would be trustworthiness. He's probably less trustworthy than her, you might say. That was part of it. It wasn't a huge surprise to me that he could breach the trust of the DUP, which he did at that time. and unionism subsequently tried to roll back on it but it was also circumstance we were heading in heading up to a deadline he was heading for elections and needed an agreement or at least thought it better to go into the elections with the deal than without one my government was starting to lose votes in our parliament we were a minority government so we both needed an agreement and we were heading up towards a deadline what i found hard to understand and i still do you know having breached trust with the dup having got the agreement with ireland and the entire european union having presented it to the people as an oven ready deal which then got through and then having put it through parliament why try to resile from it next year and i still don't fully understand well maybe because as you say because he's not trustworthy so in a way you you seem surprised both in the book and now that he reneged to you but he reneged to the dup quite publicly so were you really were you naive perhaps to trust him well i didn't really trust him but But he was willing to sign up to an agreement that met my needs and satisfied Ireland's red line.
42:14And Dominic Cummings later said that he always intended to enge on it. Yeah. Now, Boris has not said that. Maybe they did. But even then, why? Was it because they always intended to? Was it buyer's remorse? Or was it that conflict with Europe and the European Union was seen as a plus for them? And they wanted to continue that. I don't know.
42:34Lewis Goodall:I remember during that period, people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and other senior Tories basically saying, actually, we will basically outsource our view about the Brexit deal to the DUP. If the DUP like it, we'll go along with it. This was under the Theresa May period. And if they don't, then we won't. And then, of course, Boris Johnson comes along and that all changed. Do you think that there's that old Carson quote, right, about Ireland, about Northern Ireland, obviously a century before, basically saying he thought he was a fool to think that the Conservative Party ever cared really about Ireland or about Northern Ireland.
43:02Lewis Goodall:it was all just about the interests of the Conservative Party. Do you think the Conservative Party during that period cared really about Northern Ireland or about the union or was it just secondary really? I think people like Theresa May cared deeply about the union and was willing to sign up all of the UK to a UK-wide backstop in order to keep the union intact. People like William Hague as well. I'm not sure that the hardline Brexiteers said that was true. I think for them having a real Brexit or a pure Brexit was more important than keeping the bonds of the Union, particularly with Northern Ireland together.
43:37They probably would feel a bit differently about Scotland, but I'm talking for other people here so they can answer that for themselves. I think the saddest thing though about it all is the extent to which Europe has destroyed the Conservative Party. For my entire lifetime, it's a party that's been ripped apart over policy towards Europe. Going back to when Thatcher was taken out, John Major undermined by the Eurosceptics, David Cameron thinking that this referendum would settle the issue for good, and then even having delivered Brexit, it's still torn that party apart. And it's kind of sad in a way.
44:15Actually, in a weird way, it happened with the Conservative Party in the past when Joe Chamberlain left. So, you know, you have this theme running through history for a long time. They can't get it out of their heads, Leo.
44:26Lewis Goodall:They can't get it out of their heads. Yeah, but it might just have finished them off this time, but I suspect not. And do you think that, in terms of the current settlement with Northern Ireland, is this the end state? Or, I mean, there was so much talk during that period that this was going to accelerate the process towards reunification. I mean, there's a slightly different story you can tell about the union, isn't there? You know, the Brexit process, everyone constantly sort of said that the union was on its last legs, that Brexit was finishing it off, both in Ireland, but also Northern Ireland, but also with Scotland.
44:54Lewis Goodall:There's a slightly different story you could tell, which is to say, despite all of that stress, which was profound, the union's still together. There isn't an obvious immediate means of tearing it asunder in either direction yet. So maybe actually the union was stronger after all. I think it's stronger now than it was a few years ago, in part because of the change of government that you've had here. that the current government wants a close relationship with Europe, which means a close relationship with Ireland, and also has taken a less partisan approach to Northern Ireland. You know, the Conservative Party is the Conservative and Unionist Party.
45:25It never really fully embraced the Good Friday Agreement, in my view. I remember hearing a Conservative advisor, Sfad, describing it as the Labour Agreement, not even the Belfast Agreement. So you have a government now that is willing to be impartial between the two major communities in Northern Ireland and wants a close relationship with the EU. like that could change again very quickly under a different government. So we'll see how this plays out. I never believed that Brexit would lead to a united Ireland within a few years. That was never my assessment, I have to say. But what is in the Good Friday Agreement, and there would be no Good Friday Agreement without it, is a provision for unification should a majority in Northern Ireland and the Republic want that.
46:02Lewis Goodall:Do you think it will happen in your lifetime? I don't think it's inevitable, but I do think it's probable in my lifetime. And how would that make you feel? I'd be delighted. it's uh because actually the republic has got a complicated relationship i mean it would pose profound problems in some ways or big questions for the constitutional settlement of the way the republic has developed over time economic questions political questions we'd have to have a new constitution in my view it would not be an annexation of six counties a new state yes it would um and would require a new constitution and i think that's actually really exciting just finally before we wrap up um i can't let you go without talking a little bit about gaza something that Ireland in particular has been at the forefront of in terms of international discussion on it.
46:43Lewis Goodall:In terms of how we've got to this point now, the UN has for the first time said in their view that Israel is allowing a genocide to take place. Do you think that perhaps in particular, when we look at the history of this conflict now over the last two years or so, that Biden should have seen where this was going to go and should have done more? Is the cardinal sin ultimately goes back to the Biden administration as much as what's going on there? Yeah, well, look at the outset. Nothing that happened in history justifies what happened on October 7th. No context justifies it, in my view. Hamas' actions that day and on those days, and nothing justifies Israel's response to it, which is one of collective punishment, which is a war crime.
47:24So I think it's possible to hold those views at the same time. And I do. I think President Biden's one of his big failures was around the Middle East and around Gaza. I remember when he particularly spoke about how there could not be an assault on Rafa and this was to be the red line. You know, Rafa is flattened. It's dust now. And he didn't stand up to the Israeli government at a point where he could have also could have stopped the transfer of arms. Other other presidents did. President Reagan for example when Israel invaded Lebanon stopped the transfer of arms so he didn't do that I don't really know why but it's also changing American politics too the attitude towards Israel by the average American has changed now particularly among Democratic voters particularly among younger voters and even very many liberal Jewish voters I mentioned Mamdani there earlier and I'm not going to predict the future here but there's a very good chance He'll be elected as the mayor of New York in the city of New York, the second biggest Jewish city in the world, with the votes of huge numbers of Jewish New Yorkers, mainly because of issues related to New York, but also because they no longer support what's happening in Gaza and don't like to see their religion and their heritage being used as a means to crack down other people's freedoms.
48:43Is it something you welcomed, Britain's recognition, or is it too little too late? I think it's very welcome, but it's not enough. And what we're talking about now at European Union level is trade sanctions, ending preferential trade agreements, ending arms sales, and also specific sanctions on Israeli ministers and violent settler terrorists. And I'd like to see the UK doing something similar.
49:06Lewis Goodall:Look, we've spoken about all manner of different political issues, politics. It's still clearly something going back to how we started the discussion and the conversation, something that captivates you. You really don't miss it at all? You don't have a fancy going back in there? No, no. Not at an international level, maybe at EU level, if the EU Council was to come knocking at some point, you wouldn't fancy that? Yeah, but it doesn't work like that. You know, if I wanted to pitch myself into an EU role or a UN role, I could have tried that a year or two ago, and I didn't. I'm definitely enjoying personal freedom, intellectual freedom.
49:37It's been really great for the last few months. You don't think you'll ever go back into it? I don't ever see myself running for elected office again. But I fell out of love with being Taoiseach. I didn't fall out of love with politics. I'm still interested in it. We're here talking about it. As Tony Benn once said when he left Parliament, he said, I'm going to go and spend more time in politics. Well, there'll be a bit of that. I'm still involved in campaigns that I care about. And I'm still going to get stuck into different issues. The difference now is that I can choose what they are freely.
50:05And I'm not accountable to anyone really or responsible for anyone. And that gives me a lot of freedom. Leo Verrecker, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you.
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51:24Lewis Goodall:The News Agents Varadkar is a really interesting man. Someone who clearly loved and yet tired of the political game and yet who remains political to his fingertips. I really do think there is something in younger politicians giving up the ghost too soon. In this era of the attention economy when brand and recognition is all, politicians who stick with it, the Trumps, the Le Pens, the Farages, they have the time to build profile and cachet, to become comfortable and ride out little day-to-day fiascos which can sink newer, fresher politicians. the collection of younger progressive leaders who shine across the sky and burn out is long I wonder if it is a part a small but important part of their side's problem a reminder that Leo Varadkar's book Speaking My Mind is available now that is it from all of us for this week no John and Emily this Friday they're off getting their gold card government IDs made up but John and I will be reporting and presenting from the Labour Party conference in Liverpool from Monday And if you can't wait until then, I'll, of course, be on LBC on Sunday with Sunday with Lewis.
52:31Lewis Goodall:You could all see what we did there from 10 till 12. All the best interviews and analysis. So do join us then. And remember to subscribe to my brand new global podcast series, Coining It. It's a fusion of true crime and politics. More details about that next week when it all drops on September the 30th. But don't wait. Go and subscribe now. That is Coining It, which is incidentally what our very own John Sopel does on a weekly basis. Thanks to our production team on the newsagents as ever. Natalie Ind, Rory Simon, Shane Fenley, Georgia Foxwell, Jess Williamson, Mikey Baggs and Arvind Badawell.
53:00Lewis Goodall:It's presented by Emily Maitlis, John Sopel and me, Lewis Goodall. We will be back, as I say, on Monday. Have a lovely weekend.
53:09Lewis Goodall:This is a Global Player original podcast.
From the publisher
In many ways, Leo Varadkar was a historic Taoiseach. The youngest Irish PM, the first from an ethnic minority, and the first openly gay head of government.
His time at the top of Irish politics was also historic - he grappled with Trump's first term, the Brexit years, and the Covid pandemic.
At just 44 years of age, he walked away from politics. But he is still fascinated - even obsessed - by the political arena.
He's written a memoir, 'Speaking My Mind', about his rise to power and his time at the seat of government.
He came into The News Agents studio to speak to Lewis about the populist surge and where Starmer is failing in his efforts to curb it here, what it's like dealing with Donald Trump up close and personal, and why he found Boris Johnson easier to deal with than Theresa May - even though he couldn't trust him.