Malala: “Would I have chosen a different life?“

0:02Jon Sopel:This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:05Emily Maitlis:I have rights. I have the right of education. I have the right to play. I have the right to sing. I have the right to talk. I have the right to go to market. I have the right to speak up.

0:15Jon Sopel:That is a 14 year old girl talking from her village in Pakistan in the Swat Valley about the importance of child's education and particular girl's education. less than a year later she was on the school bus going home when a Taliban gunman boarded asked where's Malala and shot her in the head after that she became an international phenomenon she was brought to Britain in intensive care for operations to remove the bullet and to stabilise her condition and two years after that she became the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.

1:02Emily Maitlis:Please welcome the winner of the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize, Malala Yousafzai.

1:14Emily Maitlis:I'm really honored that I'm here today with so energetic, passionate, and peace-loving people. I'm really happy that the reason for which I'm here is going to be heard.

1:40That is education. This word seems a bit complex, but it simply means the right to learning.

1:55Emily Maitlis:And when I come to these stages, speak at the UN or give a Nobel Peace Prize speech, I simply ask that the right to learning should be given to every child. I ask for nothing else.

2:18Jon Sopel:since when malala yousafzai has been to university to oxford and has carried on championing the cause of girls in education she is a phenomenon but who is she on the news agents today an extended interview with malala and the battles she's fought and continues to fight welcome to the news agents

2:47Jon Sopel:The News Agents. Well, I'm delighted to say that we are joined in the studio by Malala. And not only that, Malala has come dressed in colour-coordinated tones for the News Agents itself, which is obviously hugely flattering to us. And I think you are our first Nobel Prize winner that we've ever had in the studio. So, very warm welcome to you. Congratulations on the book. I guess we all thought we knew who Malala was, given the story, what happened, being shot, then coming to Birmingham. And actually the book reveals the pressures as well that go with sort of being this person that we all sense we've got a sense of their identity, which is probably completely wide of the mark.

3:31Emily Maitlis:The world came to know my story when I was only 15 years old and I was defined as brave, courageous girl activist. But I was only 15 years old and I didn't really know much about myself at the time. I wanted to make friends. I wanted to have a normal life. And this is what I have been sharing in this book about my journey navigating friendships, love life, mental health. And I'm reintroducing myself, not as an idol, not as a symbol, but a young woman navigating her way.

4:01Malala Yousafzai:And a young woman who had her childhood, if not stolen, then greatly compressed. And so you are relearning all the things, frankly about how to dress as a student how to say no to your mum how to find friends when you're world famous how to navigate dating right as somebody whose name has gone ahead of themselves and it's really funny this book and it's really it's very touching actually it's you know the first the first person you meet as a student is called Cora and it's about the friendship that develops because you finally find somebody you can trust right at college I had one goal to make as

4:42Emily Maitlis:many friends as possible I wanted a social life more than anything I prioritize it over my studies and sleep even because at high school in the UK I had really struggled to make friends I was a lonely student and by the end of my school time I had only made one friend only because she fell out with her other best friend so I filled in the gap at college I was signing up for every society every club because I wanted to meet as many people. And I thought maybe I'll make one or two more friends. Friendship was something that I had missed from Pakistan. I had a lot of friends, you know, as a kid in Pakistan, I was a troublemaker.

5:18Emily Maitlis:I love to play, love to chat. But all of that changed when extremism started. And then my life took a very different turn. I became an activist at a young age. And I thought, okay, maybe I'm not supposed to have a normal life. I'm not supposed to have friends. This is how I internalized the recognition that I received. But at college, I thought maybe this is a short window of time where I can be more myself because nobody's watching and I can make some friends.

5:46Malala Yousafzai:And you also describe, Malala, the sense of guilt that comes with just doing normal things, that every time you're not talking about women's education, every time you're not actually going off and advocating, you're thinking, is this a waste of time? Should I be at this party? Should I be like hanging out listening to music?

6:05Emily Maitlis:Because I became an activist at a young age, I had more of an idealist understanding of how activism works. When you read about a famous activist from history, you're being told that they changed the world with giving one speech or, you know, that they were making change happen.

6:26Malala Yousafzai:Every single minute of their life.

6:27Emily Maitlis:Yes. So that was the understanding that I had. I thought that I am not supposed to be here in college. I'm not supposed to be laughing with my friends. I'm supposed to be somewhere else and that I was not living up to the expectations. And I always thought that the recognition I have received, the Nobel Peace Prize, that this was a huge responsibility and I had to prove it for the rest of my life that I deserved it. And I cared about the girls who are out of school. And I thought, like, you know, when people invite you to something, maybe this is the moment that everything will change. Of course, I have learned through my activism now because I have done it for so long that that's not how things work.

7:08Emily Maitlis:It's actually incremental. It's step by step. It's the collective effort that can help us make a lasting change. And we have to be more strategic in how we play a role. But at the time, I felt overwhelmed. And there was a time when I travelled to three countries in a week or so because I was prioritising fundraising and girls' education advocacy. And I was also trying to manage my studies and sleep and also socialise. So there was a lot going on.

7:35Jon Sopel:People listening to this are hearing the activist, the woman who has dedicated herself to children's education, girls' education. But there's also a fun-loving teenager, a mischief maker, you know, a person who gets up to fun and jinx and all the stuff that you should do when you're young. But you're at university and you've got the pressure to go and do these talks. You are also the main breadwinner for your family. You are trying to learn. You are trying to make friends. and you are being judged at every single turn, whether you come back from rowing and you're wearing a pair of jeans, in which case in Pakistan, people start losing their shit about it, or you're wearing a headscarf and the Daily Mail says, why are you a slave to traditional roles of women in Islam?

8:23Jon Sopel:I just don't know how you coped with that.

8:27Emily Maitlis:I was shocked that people would be commenting about me wearing jeans or they would have a problem with me wearing a headscarf. but it's just a reminder that women are constantly scrutinized and it's not easy for us but at college I just wanted to be a normal student I was not there to represent any culture or do some campaign for a specific cause I remember receiving this call from my parents after the whole jeans backlash happened but they were really concerned and they asked if I would like defend myself or issue a statement and I told them that I am not going to say anything because why is it that always girls are targeted?

9:05Emily Maitlis:When my brothers moved to the UK, they immediately switched their dress code. They were wearing jeans and tops, but nobody criticized them. There was no controversy. But only when I decided to wear jeans, it became a whole controversy. I would always worry about what I say in the public, what I wear, who am I upsetting this time. But I also realized that there's no ideal world in which everybody would be happy with you. I need to stay focused on my mission, and that is helping girls get their education. So I want to stick to that. But I also want to be myself. You know, I'm still a young person who's navigating her way.

9:42Emily Maitlis:And why am I not allowed to explore different things, whether that is what I want to wear and how I want to experience my life? I had to challenge myself in having this very fixed view about how I was supposed to live. And because I became an activist at a young age, I thought that I was supposed to live my life in one way. And then I realized that I'm not even going to grow if I don't allow myself to have these experiences. Like I don't even know who I am. And somehow I have to make sure that nobody is saying a bad comment. Like that is the way I determine my life. I will not be true to myself.

10:18Malala Yousafzai:John touched on something very important that you wrote, Malala, which is you're not allowed to work when you're at Oxford. They make that clear. Your tutor says you're falling behind. You say, ah, I'm sorry, I've got to go and give a talk to, I think it's with Tim Cook at one point, and to the UN the next point. And then you tell us about a corporate speech that you've got to do where you're earning money. And the importance of that is you are the main breadwinner in your family now. You are funding your whole family, your brothers, money's going back to Pakistan, to your wider family, presumably cousins.

10:56So we get a sense, I think, on some level, that whilst the activism comes very much from the heart,

11:05Malala Yousafzai:you also feel that you're slightly being marketed at this point. I mean, is that something that you feel very concerned about, that you also have to play this role? You have to write the books, you have to get out there, you have to speak, because your whole family is now dependent on it.

11:23Emily Maitlis:Yeah, you know, like in Pakistan, we come from a very like humble background. And when we moved to the UK, my dad had to leave everything behind. So we had to start a new life. And then we were relying on the book money or some speaking money. So I have been helping and supporting my family. And even now I support them. This shift happened really quickly. Like I was still a student, a teenager while I started doing these engagements. and of course it meant that I had this pressure at college time as well. It's not that I didn't want to do that because of course I care about my family and I want to make sure we have a good life and we can help as many people as possible.

12:02Emily Maitlis:What was challenging at the time was that I had to maintain my studies and my college life and at the same time be doing all of this and be doing advocacy with it. So maintaining that was becoming more and more difficult but in my later months at college I then ensure that I get academic support and other help that is there for students at college I was hesitant because I thought it means I don't deserve to be at college and and you feel like I mean you look for therapy at one stage you're very honest with yourself and you

12:34Malala Yousafzai:say I it was all getting away from me right and you actually turn to therapy which feels slightly

12:39Emily Maitlis:taboo in your family right like growing up we had not really heard about mental health the same way there is stigma around mental health conversations. And I was even offered mental health support at the Cuyah Hospital in the UK when I was receiving my surgeries. But I refused to get that because for me, recovery was all about the medication and the treatment and it was all about the physical recovery. But I wish I had received the therapy sooner because like all the flashbacks of the Taliban attack were triggered by this incident at college and after that you know I had like terrible sleep and I had anxiety and when I when I finally started seeing a therapist she told me that I had PTSD yeah yeah but is there I guess what I'm trying

13:37Malala Yousafzai:to get to is there a bit of you that is like sick of being the brand Malala that you actually just want to live your own life work with your advocacy talk to the people that you think you can reach and not be part of whatever brand has been created around you now I think what is interesting is that the brand that is being created sometimes is so external that you know you may not have much

14:06Emily Maitlis:control over what people say about you or what they expect from you and you know somehow then I have also internalized that. I thought that as an activist, I was not supposed to have friends. I was not supposed to have love in my life. And that's why as a little girl in Pakistan, I did not want to get married. And I had seen how marriage had taken away the dreams of so many girls. And many girls were married off when they were still children. But at the same time, I thought, okay, like, no, no love life. I cannot be that old self that I was because I'm supposed to be an activist and I'm supposed to be living a serious life.

14:45Emily Maitlis:But I knew that I was not being true to myself. If I continue that. So what I have tried to do is that just stay true to myself. And then, you know, if people accept that as you, it's up to them. But, but it's important that I follow my gut and that is to advocate for girls around the world who do not have access to education but at the same time send this message that we are not all so perfect that we have answers to everything I know a lot about my rights and all of these things but even when I myself was thinking about the decision to get married, I could not navigate it easily

15:27Jon Sopel:There was a lot of agony in the book about reaching that decision i know too many chapters on that too many chapters on shall i will how will i know if i ask these questions will i get the relevant answers let me just go back to the mental health bit of it because i thought it was really interesting one of the very graphic and disturbing passages you described which is when you were in south africa and you were about to have a beach holiday in cape town and it was about the taliban taking back over in afghanistan which was a trigger for a mechanism here you have been doing this advocacy work and you are making progress and reading about the school that you've created in Shanghila and Pakistan is amazing but in Afghanistan it has all gone backwards yeah the sense of despair must be profound about that the Taliban took control

16:13Emily Maitlis:of Afghanistan the same week when I was receiving my last surgery to recover my facial nerve that was hit by the Taliban bullet. And I was reflecting on how it has taken me so much time and so many surgeries to recover from one Taliban bullet. I could not imagine the pain that the Afghan women and girls have suffered and that they had a dark future ahead of them. At the time, I was just thinking about helping the Afghan activists in their evacuation and thinking about the future of girls' education there. And the fear, the anger that Afghan women had that I had turned out to be true because the Taliban have banned girls from education.

16:53Emily Maitlis:It has been more than four and a half years. Girls have not been allowed to go to school beyond grade six. Women are banned from work. This is like a nightmare situation for Afghan women. Their dreams, everything is taken away from them. And in this time, I just think about the incredible Afghan activists who are not losing hope, who are doing everything they can to help girls learn through underground or online schools. and I had a conversation with some Afghan girls who are part of this secret school. They were telling me that they are determined to keep learning. And one girl said that even reading a book alone in her room is an act of resistance against the Taliban for her.

17:32Jon Sopel:But Malala, you are kind of feted by Western leaders because of your incredible story. But do you think there's been a betrayal there? I mean, the deal that Trump first signed and then that Biden implemented and the chaotic pullout, which just meant that the country fell apart and, you know, 20 years of progress was kind of thrown backwards.

17:53Emily Maitlis:I think there was a bigger question about the commitment of the Western countries to gender equality and the protection of women's rights, because we know that narrative has been used in the past to intervene. But like this time, the whole country of Afghanistan was handed over to the Taliban. They were brought to the mainstream and women were deliberately excluded from those conversations. Women's rights had been taken away from the agenda. And this has been the reality for the past many years. It just makes you question about the so-called commitment to feminist foreign policy or to protecting women's rights.

18:30Malala Yousafzai:You don't mean question. You mean you don't think it exists, really?

18:33Emily Maitlis:Yeah. I mean, if we don't stand by it, then words become meaningless. I don't know why we still have to defend the right to education for girls. why is it becoming a crime for an Afghan girl to be in a classroom? But internationally, it's not yet a crime for the Taliban to be imposing all of these restrictions. I think that is a bigger crime, what they're doing, and they need to be held accountable for that. Afghan women activists are advocating for what's happening in Afghanistan to be recognized as a gender apartheid. They're pushing countries to put more pressure on the Taliban. like do not normalize conversations with them.