In short
Labour MP Natalie Fleet discusses her teenage grooming and rape, her push to end stigma and improve rape support, and her reaction to Keir Starmer’s handling of recent political scandals involving alleged links to sexual abuse (Peter Mandelson and Matthew Doyle). She also argues for criminal justice reforms, including changes to jury trial processes for rape cases.
Guest backgrounds
Natalie Fleet is the Labour MP for Bolsover. She was pregnant at 15 (16 at birth) after being groomed and raped by an older man in her community. She says she later became an MP to give a voice to victims and to advocate for violence-against-women-and-girls policy. Interviewers are The News Agents hosts (not otherwise profiled in the transcript).
Key claims
Starmer is genuinely committed to violence against women and girls and has a “strategy” as a top mission; recent outrage is politically selective. Fleet says victims need belief, faster justice, and a police process that “holds your hand.” She supports limiting defendants’ choice of trial venue to reduce delays.
Notable examples
Fleet’s meeting with Muhammad Al-Fayed’s alleged victims via Harriet Harman; claims about Harrods-related exploitation and medical checks; her own law change about stopping rapists accessing children conceived by rape; her daughter’s encouragement to report; her account of waiting years for justice and fear of re-traumatization.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction to Natalie Fleet MP
0:53 to 1:03
Get to know Labour MP Natalie Fleet and her extraordinary background.
“This is a Global Player original podcast.”
Introduction to Natalie Fleet MP
1:50 to 4:14
Get to know Labour MP Natalie Fleet and her extraordinary background.
“To appoint two shows a catastrophic lack of judgment.”
Challenges as a Woman Labour MP
4:14 to 6:20
Natalie discusses her experiences and the challenges faced as a woman in politics.
“she has been in the room this week as Keir Starmer asked his MPs for forgiveness and forbearance.”
Meeting with the Prime Minister
6:20 to 9:06
Natalie shares her experience during a recent meeting with the Prime Minister about women's issues.
“I can go spend some time with my children and be normal.”
The Al-Fayed Case and Victims' Stories
9:06 to 11:36
Natalie discusses the severity of the Al-Fayed case and its impact on victims.
“And so now I can meet with victims and make sure that they don't feel ignored.”
Political Outrage and Responsibility
11:36 to 14:00
Exploring the selective outrage in politics regarding grooming and women's issues.
“It's like people know, and then when it suits them, they're outraged.”
Political Irony and Commitment to Violence Against Women
14:00 to 17:23
Explore the complexities surrounding political commitments to addressing violence against women and personal experiences with advocacy.
“I know, I feel it, you make me feel it and we need you to deliver to make other women feel it too.”
The Vision for Change in Support Systems
17:23 to 20:57
Listen to a vision for systemic changes in how victims of sexual violence are supported within the police and legal systems.
“I want to talk to you about the last Labour government and the reason that I wanted to become an MP.”
Reflections on the Labour Government's Past
20:57 to 23:28
Reflect on the past Labour government's approaches to youth support and discuss personal experiences that shaped political aspirations.
“Do you think the Prime Minister, from what you've seen him in over the last couple of days, do you think that he has the authority left to be able to do it?”
Women in Politics: A Call for Accountability
23:28 to 25:48
Discuss the role of women in politics, the importance of accountability, and the need for a cultural reset within political environments.
“I mean, one of the things I sort of feel about this is that having more women in a room, obviously, is a great thing.”
Show all 20 chapters
Navigating Challenges in Leadership and Change
25:48 to 28:00
Delve into the challenges faced by political leaders and the need for support and transparency during times of crisis.
“And it just gave me so much hope and opportunity.”
Discussing Recent Legislative Achievements
28:00 to 30:10
Natalie reflects on recent votes aimed at alleviating poverty and supporting families.
“fighting and more determined than ever, that's the version I like to see.”
Discussing Recent Legislative Achievements
30:14 to 30:25
Natalie reflects on recent votes aimed at alleviating poverty and supporting families.
Natalie's Story of Resilience and Grooming
30:25 to 34:28
Natalie shares her personal journey of becoming a teenage mother and her experiences of grooming.
“And this is why I will forever be an advocate of having as many normal people in politics as we can physically get.”
Confronting the Impact of Grooming and Rape
34:28 to 38:28
Natalie discusses the long-term effects of grooming and her efforts to speak out about sexual violence.
“They didn't want my security to be at risk.”
Advocating for Changes in the Legal System
38:28 to 42:04
Natalie advocates for reforms in how rape cases are processed within the legal system.
“200 women are raped every day and nobody talks about it.”
Empowerment in the Face of Adversity
42:04 to 47:40
Explore how societal perceptions affect victims of sexual assault and the need for accountability.
“And nobody asks about the legitimacy of that.”
The Challenges of Politics for Women
47:40 to 49:37
Natalie discusses her experiences in Westminster and the difficulties women face in politics.
“We're not talking about the Democratic Republic of Congo or a faraway place.”
Legacy and Expectations in Leadership
49:37 to 51:47
Natalie reflects on her role as the first woman MP in her constituency and the pressure to meet legacy expectations.
“for a reason you've got to be an absolute badass that has arrived and uses the power that you have been gifted.”
Closing Reflections on Personal Journey
51:47 to 52:58
The hosts share their thoughts on Natalie's journey and the impact of diverse voices in politics.
“rocks and then I go to the constituency and last week there was a 91 year old man that I was the second ever person to tell that he was abused when he was younger.”
Transcript
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0:39Lewis Goodall:And your medication is delivered directly to your home in discreet packaging. So your experience stays private from start to finish. Do your research, ask the right questions, then visit orderlymeds.com slash podcast for an exclusive offer. Again, that's orderlymeds.com slash podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice. Eligibility required. See site for details. This is a Global Player original podcast. Let me bring you some breaking news now. Morgan McSweeney, Downing Street Chief of Staff, has just resigned. There's been another major departure from Downing Street. The Executive Director of Communications, Tim Allen, has quit.
1:23That's why the distraction needs to end and the leadership in Downing Street has to change. A day of extreme jeopardy for Sakir Starmer over the scandal surrounding Peter Mandelson and his links with Jeffrey Epstein is ending tonight with his cabinet rallying around him and his backbench MPs applauding him after he appealed to them for support.
1:44Lewis Goodall:To appoint one pedophile supporter cannot be excused as misfortune. To appoint two shows a catastrophic lack of judgment. Mr Speaker, if I've just listened to the Prime Minister correctly, he's essentially rolled the same pitch in relation to Matthew Doyle as he did with Peter Mandelson, that they weren't clear with him. He appears to be the most gullible former director of public prosecutions in history. The Prime Minister is the architect of his own misfortunes, and all of the chaos and instability we're seeing is completely self-inflicted. This is a Labour psychodrama right now. We're all living in Labour psychodrama.
2:27Lewis Goodall:It has been a dizzying, depressing, disturbing week or so in British politics. Since the publication of the latest tranche of Epstein files, there has been rage, some real, some not. There's been a lot of hypocrisy, all of it real. there's been perhaps more than a few people hitherto uninterested suddenly uninhibited who have used the pain of survivors for their own political ends and at the center of it all a paradox a prime minister who has a genuine record of fighting violence against women and girls both in his life before politics and within it a prime minister who made fighting violence against women and girls, one of the five missions of his government.
3:12Lewis Goodall:And yet it is the same Prime Minister who finds himself accused of making decisions which make that record seem less whole, less convincing, that when push comes to shove, politics matters to him more. What to make of it all? Who to turn to for sense? There could be no one better for that than Natalie Fleet, the Labour MP for Bolsover. Fleet is a very unusual politician. Like Angela Rayner, her background and story is exceptional, if not outside Parliament, then certainly within its crumbling walls. Fleet was pregnant at 15, groomed and raped by an older man in her community. She was told that she was finished.
3:57Lewis Goodall:Instead, she made it to the House of Commons and uses her extraordinary life story to power her political work, determined as she is to speak for those countless women who cannot speak for themselves. As a now senior member of the Women's Parliamentary Labour Party, she has been in the room this week as Keir Starmer asked his MPs for forgiveness and forbearance. She saw him up close and has much to say about it. So we asked her into the Newsagent studio to discuss this last seven days, her life in Westminster, and whether she trusts Keir Starmer to do the right thing. Welcome to The News Agents.
4:41Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. Well, Natalie Fleet joins us in the News Agents studio. Natalie, thanks so much for coming in. Thank you for having me. Not at all. I was actually thinking of you the first of the 2024 intake that we've used for these Friday episodes. I think you might be, you know. So there you go. There's something to take back to Bolsover. Yeah, absolutely. That is absolutely ridiculous. and very cool it's very cool it's very low down on your list of achievements let's just start with this week before we and the last couple of weeks before we talk about your political journey because your political journey and your life is so germane to so many of the subjects we've been talking about so much the last few weeks what's it been like being a Labour MP particularly a Labour MP a woman Labour MP who is so invested in these issues around violence against women and girls what's it been like the last couple of weeks horrible absolutely horrible I was set up in women's plp yesterday and i told the prime minister it's the worst week i've ever had as an mp it's just so it's so exhausting and so i think that when women speak about their experience i always hold in my mind the cost and i am human and i'm not immune and i look at virginia dufray and I think that's the ultimate cost of speaking about this stuff.
5:55But look at the power of what they've achieved. We are having this moment in politics and I want us to talk about what a moment this is because it really is. Because she and the other survivors spoke out. I spend so much time asking women to speak out and supporting them in any way that I can but that doesn't mean that it doesn't come at huge personal cost. I feel exhausted. I am glad that it is going to be recess. I can go spend some time with my children and be normal. My husband, from the very start, he says to me, I don't want you to be the rapey MP. And I never wanted that either. But women aren't speaking out.
6:42And I fought really hard for this platform. The first woman MP for Bowls Over. We've got the first woman Chancellor. We've still not had a woman leader of the Labour Party. So you fight for your platform, and then you have a huge responsibility to use it, to give people that don't have one a voice.
7:00Lewis Goodall:I want to talk about that in particular, and exactly as you described, about not wanting to be, as your husband said, the rapey MP. But just in terms of the events this week, you said you were at the Women's PLP yesterday. What was that like? I mean, it's been described, it must have been a difficult meeting for the Prime Minister. I thought it was really good. Genuinely, there are different reports of what's come out, but I saw it as so positive. It was really, really constructive. You get women in a room and it didn't feel like we were rehashing what we've been through. Instead, he came saying, I hear you.
7:34I am sorry for what has happened. I'm sorry for the positions that you've been put in. I see the structural misogyny that is before me. I am determined to do something about it. then he took the contributions they didn't manage to get them all in so he said he'll come back but it was really good in terms of what we can do moving forward and how we can make things better so I got to ask him I got to say that this week because this is a moment and we've got to use it for good so I said Prime Minister we've got our own version of Epstein in this country Muhammad Al-Fayed and his brothers the things that they did to women I met them on Monday of this week with Harriet Harman which the fact that she even knows who I am is ridiculous and very cool so I pinched myself when she called me and she says Natalie will you meet with the victims with me and I'm like wow what a blessing so then I got to take their ask and I got to say to the Prime Minister can we take this moment and can you meet with these victims that were treated so horrendously and I know that he cares he asked to meet me one-to-one when we got a law change through to stop rapists having access to the children conceived by a rape because there's 10 women every day in this country that give birth as a result of rape and he asked to meet me afterwards just to say congratulations and he held my hand so tight and he said I am proud of you and I hope you are proud of you too and I saw a man that genuinely cares and is such a huge ally and I think that we've got to utilize him so I said will you meet Al-Fayed's victims I knew he would this isn't like a token offer he's spent his entire life meeting with victims and he says when you meet with them you learn from them and that's when you get the passion to fight and I believe him
9:31Lewis Goodall:well I want to talk about Starmer in particular in his role but you've made quite the claim there which is you think we've got our own Epstein in this country and it's Al-Fayed why do you say that I met with the victims which is a big deal so Lewis I have been the victim that emails people and organizations and tries to speak out tries to get support and I felt ignored and I felt like I I don't have a voice and I don't have a platform and nobody's interested and nobody's interested at girls that society just used to say were slags. I found it really tough. And so now I can meet with victims and make sure that they don't feel ignored.
10:12So I met with them and Baroness Harmon on Monday and they told me about the jobs they got at Harrods. My lad's just got a job at Iceland. it's£10 an hour he's going to have nine hours a week he's so excited and we're so proud he's going to have freedom and money he gets a staff discount he's got a uniform like this is an exciting first job for him these girls had their first job or the start of their career at Harrods they were put in different places some of them were on concessions they were then scouted because they were going to be fast-tracked and a perk of the job was that they got a like special health benefits HR took them to one side and said, you know, you've got some real talent, we're going to look after you.
10:56We now know that those medical examinations which checked they were virgins or didn't have STIs. And when they were going to be promoted, they were going to be sent up to the chairman's office. There wasn't any work to do. The state was involved in a lot of this. There were doctors, the general medical council. There were, you know, what were the police doing? You know, the victims were telling me about his minders that used to follow them around and make threats to them. This is worse than anything I've ever heard. And what they told me is that, because I googled it, and this has been talked about on the BBC, on dispatchers.
11:33There's a lot of stuff out there. But what there isn't is moral outrage. And it's the same with grooming gangs. It's the same with Epstein. It's like people know, and then when it suits them, they're outraged.
11:47Lewis Goodall:Well, this is something that I've talked about and written about a lot last couple of weeks, which is, let's take the Mandelson incident. Obviously, were you in the Commons two weeks ago for PMQs when he said, well, you know, when he said that he knew about Mandelson's continued friendship with Epstein? And I understand completely why people are horrified by it. But then I also, like you say, what I struggle to understand a bit more is it seems a lot of people are outraged when it suits them to be outraged because that was also known when he was appointed and we didn't hear the outrage from the newspapers or many of the MPs who are now claiming to be completely outraged or many of the journalists who are now claiming to be completely outraged now that's not to say the outrage is wrong but some of it seems if not artificial then quite convenient doesn't it yeah and that's what makes me so angry so I understand politics and I understand the power it has and that's why I wanted to be an MP.
12:41But then when I see Kemi Baden-Ock, she's a woman, you know, and she had power, she had power and she didn't use it to support victims. She was a minister for women and equalities, she, there's a lot she could have done. She didn't care about grooming, she didn't meet with victims and she didn't mention grooming once. And then she's in opposition, she's the leader and she is using those victims as a human shield to throw rocks at people that have spent their entire lives fighting for these women. Jess Phillips, Keir Starmer. These are people that genuinely care and want to make a difference for these women and we now have the power to do so.
13:21They only care because it's politically right.
13:23Lewis Goodall:What do you say though Natalie? You say that the Prime Minister really cares about violence against women and girls and in fairness, you know, hasn't perhaps been noted as much as it might be in the wider context of some of the coverage. You are right. Starmer has a long history of this. He's put the violence against women and girls strategy as one of his top five missions in government. That hasn't happened before. Again, hasn't been commented on very much. But it is true. What do you say to those people who say, well, that's all well and good. But when push came to shove with Mandelson and with Doyle, when it comes down to it, when it's politically convenient for him, he's looked the other way.
13:56Lewis Goodall:And that does say something. How do you square that circle? I saw him last night and he is just... mortified by where we are and it's so ironic that somebody who cares so deeply is being affected politically the way that he is i mean monday was just absolutely ridiculous but i he told me last night again that he was sorry for where we are and he tried to tell me how committed he was to vogue to violence against women and girls and i'm like please stop there Prime Minister. I know, I feel it, you make me feel it and we need you to deliver to make other women feel it too. We've got that strategy, it is the first of its kind.
14:41I have a dream and I told him about this and this is why I do things even when they're difficult and this is what he's going to be able to make happen that is going to have an impact on so many victims. So people tell tell me all the time I'm brave. I'm not brave enough to report because why would I? And I asked my son and I asked my family and I said, shall I report? And my daughter said, she's the one that was conceived that way. And she said, mum, please do. I really want you to. And I said, I'm not brave enough and I'm sorry. And she said, okay, that might change with time. But I asked, my son just said, why would you do that to yourself?
15:20You've got a sense of responsibility and that's why you're here.
15:23Lewis Goodall:You mean report rape to the police? Yeah. So, because of this strategy, because the difficult things we're doing, and they are difficult, they're under the radar, nobody cares about because they're not in the headlines. I have a dream that, I sound like Martin Luther King, it's ridiculous, but I have this vision that a young girl comes to me, and they do all the time, and I love that. I just want us to get to a place where we can be public about it. But I have a dream that a young girl comes to me and she says, I've been raped. And I can tell her that because of changes we've made, there will be a designated officer at the police force that will believe you.
16:03And they'll take you through that process and they will hold your hand. And then we've put money into charities and support victims charities. We've absolutely bolstered the sector with the money they desperately needed so they can support you every step of the way. and then we've tackled the criminal justice system we've tackled that court backlog and that is one of the most difficult things that we're doing and we're getting a lot of pushback for it but it is morally the right thing to do so that when she comes forward she hasn't got to wait years being re-traumatized the first ever woman that came to me she waited four years and five months she tried to take her life many times the perpetrator's now in prison but she was brave going through that and I don't want her to have to.
16:47And then we're going to have sorted out our prisons, which again is a difficult thing to do, so that criminals can be behind bars.
16:54Lewis Goodall:I completely understand all of that, and I can hear the power and the passion in all of that. I suppose some people listening might just say, but how do you, as a woman who is so passionate about these things and has had experience of these things, and someone who clearly believes in the Prime Minister's motives and his own passion, again, how do you think it could have been, therefore, that he's got himself into the position that he has? Because you think that as a result of the last few weeks, that just undermines so much of what you're saying. So I want to talk to you. This is how I think about it.
17:26I want to talk to you about the last Labour government and the reason that I wanted to become an MP. So they saw me as a vulnerable young woman and they made sure... Actually, Gordon Brown phoned me two nights ago and we got to speak about what he'd done for me for a young woman. and he wanted to speak about violence against women and girls and get my advice. That was another pinch me moment. But we got to speak about the reason I wanted to become an MP. Tax credit, Sure Start, first in the family scholarship. They made sure that I had everything that I needed to support my family. Everything I needed.
18:02Taught me how to breastfeed. Taught me how to feed my kids nutritious meals. Sign on the wall at Sure Start that says that we don't smack our children here. Support workers. I could say, why don't we do that? and they could explain to me why it's not okay to smack your children. And the importance of breastfeeding, that early intervention and the power that it had is absolutely incredible. So I want to become an MP so that I can help. But we also had, so that I can pay that back to the next generation and I can work out what our version of Sure Start is and the difference that we can make. But we also had a teenage pregnancy strategy that meant that when I went for my first school visit, this is an incredible moment.
18:39I went for my first school visit. and the school was lovely it's great and everything was good and they were you know the kids were happy and it was a joy to be around them but I didn't see the pregnant ones and I thought where are you hiding them so I said to the head where's your teenage pregnancy unit and he says we don't have one I'm like well where do the teenage girls go then they're pregnant and he says it doesn't happen anymore so I did a bit of research I was like oh my god the strategy that we put in place when we were last in government meant that these girls don't exist in the same way they're not being systematically groomed across our communities there were no Pakistani men in my community and we had the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe these men weren't coming across in boats this happened as a result of men's attitude towards women as a society but you know what nobody was asking the first time I was asked when I was elected my lovely friend Gloria DiPiero she wanted to interview me and she said okay we're going to talk about when you were pregnant and we're going to talk about you know how excited were you when you found out and i wasn't excited that it was the worst thing that could possibly happen to a 15 year old girl who thinks she's got a life in front of her it was horrendous the last labor government for everything they did that i'm indebted for they weren't asking why they were complicitly blaming girls like me they were buying into the narrative that we were slags that we deserved it that this was our fault that we were promiscuous.
20:04They weren't asking about who the dads were. So it's no surprise that we weren't asking the right questions around Mandelson. Look at that vetting process. It's not fit for purpose. I'm glad that we're doing something about that. But right now we have a moment, if Harriet Harman is saying to me, Natalie, what's happened is really powerful and I'm sorry we didn't ask who the fathers were. I'm sorry we didn't ask how this happened to you. and Gordon Brown actual Gordon Brown is phoning me and saying Natalie can I get your advice on this I'm like I'm just a slag what do you want my advice for and he's saying you're not you're somebody that is absolutely he used the word exceptional which is ridiculous but he said you know it's it's a miracle that you're here and then this prime minister is saying we're going to do something about this but it's not just him it's Sir Bernard Jenkins men that I've never met That's Ian Duncan Smith.
21:03Lewis Goodall:They're saying, can we support you? Do you think the Prime Minister, from what you've seen him in over the last couple of days, do you think that he has the authority left to be able to do it? The trust left from women MPs, for example? So what I saw yesterday was an army of women behind him that want him to succeed and also want to hold him to account. And I think that is really powerful. What I've seen from him is that he always comes out fighting when he's under pressure but what it means is that he can say what he really feels there were women from across the party across the lords in that room and it felt like we're like okay this is a moment for us as women and for how we tackle these issues that are in the Labour Party and absolutely in wider society and the Labour Party is no different you're telling us that you're the man that can absolutely tackle these issues we are going to help you every step of the way we're also going to hold you to account so I heard Lisa Nandy doing a media round and she called out the sexist briefings that she's had against her she's lazy I've been called that she doesn't spend enough time with her kids I've been asked that she is just completely normal she spends too much time with her kids and she said you know right this is the moment to to stop that kind of culture and there was a huge emphasis on cultural reset yesterday that I think we've all got a role in in achieving because it's what we need we are the Labour Party a stand on the shoulders of women like Harriet Harman but she was in the room sat next to me also ready to hold the Prime Minister to account this is a moment for women that we are going to grab by both hands and obviously there's been this suggestion of Starmer running a boys club do you think that's true there are a lot of women work the thing i find slightly curious about that is there are a lot of women working in number 10 so what i love is that crude or what i loved is there are damn good women women that you look up to women that i phone when i need something women that are there if i'm struggling they are good powerful strong women and what the prime minister said is it's not just about having women it's about making sure that they're in the right places as key decision makers.
23:22We've seen a lot of women in different places this week and we're going to see more of that. And I think that's a really good thing.
23:31Lewis Goodall:It's also about, isn't it? I mean, one of the things I sort of feel about this is that having more women in a room, obviously, is a great thing. But there have been times when women themselves have been involved or implicated in making bad decisions in this area, right? Are we talking about Gillian Maxwell? And I've just literally said, And Kemi Baden-Ock is not an ally around this. You know, well, this is the thing. It's so, it's a sort of slightly more, it's about having people with the right attitude, isn't it? And about having the conversations as much as having, as much as having, making it a conversation about men and women.
24:04Lewis Goodall:It's about everybody. You are not on the right side of history just because you have a vagina. There are women that, I mean, I spoke about the HR women in the Al Fired case. And there are women that are complicit in this. there are women that aren't sisters and there are women that you know the amount of women that said to me you cannot be an mp with four kids they didn't mean it they were trying to look after me but as women we're not immune to being part of the problem the women in that room yesterday the women that that room was absolutely packed full of strong labor women proper feminists that want to take this issue on and tackle it i feel like there is a there's an army of us and there's good men as well.
24:44I think that we can't lose that in this debate. I spoke about the law change that I got to make, which is ridiculous. And there was a call to anybody that could come donut me and support me in the chamber. These are MPs because there's so many of us that I'd never even seen before. I had to look on the telly, research them and find out what their names were. What they were saying is they were turning up and they were saying, we believe you, we back you. with different kinds of men, because the men that hurt, but there are men that make things better.
25:14Lewis Goodall:I mean, it's been reported that the Prime Minister is so dispirited that he might be on the brink of resignation. From what you saw of him, is that right? Or did you see something else? I saw it last night, and I just said, you know, we need this. Our fired victims need this. Epstein victims need this. We, as I'm not part of a big gang, I'm just a woman that you see in front of you. I need this. I need you to deliver for us. But every woman, I promise you every woman has got a story why they need a prime minister that delivers. And when you see him passionate and motivated, and on his A game, he sent like that last night.
25:50And it just gave me so much hope and opportunity. I think this is a time, I feel like with Me Too, we all spoke about how terrible it was, and we didn't get the action. He has the power to deliver. And that's really important.
26:04Lewis Goodall:But it must have nonetheless, I mean, having experienced the Mandelson saga, go on and on and on, to then sort of see it, at least to some extent, repeated with Doyle, Matthew Doyle, being appointed to the Lords. What did you think of that? I think that, as I said right at the start, it's been the most difficult week and I am emotionally exhausted by it and I am not on my own. I did not make those decisions.
26:34I This isn't the end of a conversation. This is a start. We've got the stuff that's going to come out around the Mandelson appointment. There's an investigation within the Labour Party about the Doyle appointment. This is a time when we learn lessons and we are going to be transparent. That's a good thing.
Read the full transcript
26:53Lewis Goodall:Do you think just on the politics, one more thing on the politics, do you want Keir Starmer to lead the party into the next election? at the start of the week it didn't feel like he was even going to make it through the day people want to see fast results they want to see us sort stuff like we promised at the election and when we promise change they're frustrated because 18 months later that feels like a really long time they want things instantly i want us to deliver as a labour government i don't we've only ever had four elected Labour prime ministers. I just can't imagine how hellish it would be if we got into that, oh, you know, the popular word is psychodrama.
27:34I don't care what you call it. It's absolute mess. If we started an internal process and then people start calling for a general election when the man has got a mandate, he's 411 Labour MPs, a proper landslide. I think that there is determination to support him to deliver. And that's what we've seen come out this week. I don't know what happens and how he takes it, but the version of him that comes out fighting and more determined than ever, that's the version I like to see. What I miss in all of the news reports, but I hold close to my heart, is that last Tuesday I got to vote to take 450 ,000 kids like me out of poverty.
28:19I've had women get in touch that they would say, they said, there's no way that they could fill in that form of shame around the rape clause no matter what the cost they would rather not be here than have to try and justify a shame that they carry with them so the fact that we got to abolish it we're delivering it and people aren't hearing it they're not feeling it yet i'm impatient for them to start feeling it i mean things that are coming up in april we've got you've been doing some really great stuff around like student debt and stuff. I think there's a moment in the country as well where young people are sick of being ignored.
28:56We're doing stuff to make sure that they can have a home that they can afford. They can have childcare for their kids. They can get paid more. My son's going to get paid more because of legislation that we're passing and people can feel better off. This is the kind of stuff I want to get to talking about.
29:11Lewis Goodall:Well, I want to talk a bit about your family and your story, which we'll do just after this.
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30:25Lewis Goodall:The News Agents Well, Natalie, we've sort of skirted around it a little bit because there's been so much politics to get through, but it is really germane, I think, particularly given everything that we've been talking about the last couple of weeks, which is your story, which is both, it strikes me, completely very unusual, but parts of it, as I think we'll discuss, perhaps not unusual, particularly with regards to your experience as a woman. you do nonetheless share something with Angela Rayner and not that many other MPs in that you were a teenage mum you had your daughter when you were 15 I was 16 I was 15 when yeah I was 16 when she was born I felt like a proper grown-up looking back I bet it's very um tell us about what happened how that came about so you say that it's unusual for an MP it's not unusual in my community We had the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe.
31:18And this is why representation matters. And this is why politics matters. And this is why I will forever be an advocate of having as many normal people in politics as we can physically get. You go down there, it doesn't feel very normal. It feels very elitist. But actually, it isn't. There are some damn good people. And Angela Rayner is absolutely one of them. I look to her. And I think, yeah, I can do this. and before I went in to Parliament I genuinely thought that me and Angela Rayner were the same I thought we were teenage mums and we had managed to raise incredible kids that we're super super super proud of I haven't mentioned this yet but I've got to say, like Angela I'm also a non-or my one year old granddaughter who...
32:07Lewis Goodall:A non-or at 41? I was 40 when she was born That even beats my mum, God My husband has Fridays off work so that he can look after him. We can help our daughter. I burst with pride. Like, this is amazing. It's definitely the best part of my story. Anyway, I thought that I was the same as Angela. And then I came to Parliament and I just started thinking that, you know, this isn't OK. This is not OK. So it was an older man that was telling me everything. He just lying to me over a long period so that he could have sex with me as a teenage girl. At 15? Yeah. And not thinking about contraception, lying about contraception that was used.
32:54And then when I said to him, I'm like, oh, my God, what do I do? What do I do? He says, you have an abortion. and he literally passed everything to me just like just like our fired victims they were you know this is on you the consequences of our actions are firmly with you and um so I had her and I was just absolutely determined that she was going to have everything that I would want to have and my god I was helped by the government that meant that I could I could get a good job I could support her I could have a minimum wage like there's kids now that think that that's like completely normal I can remember it coming in and it meant that I could afford to to look after I found the most incredible husband and I've got a really incredible family setup that I didn't I didn't always think I would be I definitely didn't think I was worthy of and I didn't think that I'd achieve so yeah those kids they teased me all the time about having favorites I've actually got four favorites
33:56Lewis Goodall:That's very difficult. That is such a mom answer. I am the biggest cheerleaders. You've alluded to it there and you said something like when you came to Parliament you realised. I mean to be absolutely explicit what you mean is you realised that what you experienced was a form of grooming. And grooming and rape and I really find that difficult to say. I still find those words difficult to say. The good news is that when I came to Parliament, I knew it would be a massive cost to my family. They all begged me not to do it. They didn't want me to come here. They didn't want my security to be at risk.
34:32They didn't want people to say horrible things about me. They didn't want me to live the experience of being a woman MP. And my husband said, I don't want to turn on the news and wonder if you're going to be the next Joe Cox. They begged me not to do it. But I'm like, I feel like I've got a responsibility to hand it down to the next generation. So the good news is you've got to think about everything that could possibly come out because it feels like there are people trying to get you all the time. I mean, look at Angela Rayner, the clothes she wears, the vape she smokes, the same as my husband's.
35:05Lewis Goodall:Having a drink on a boat, going to the opera, can't win. It doesn't matter what you do. It is wrong. And I knew that if there's one thing people hate, it's a working class woman. It's a woman with power. I mean, look at the way they treat Rachel. There's not many fans of women with power out there. there are she's got an army of women behind that both of them have and some real male allies but it's still tough anyway the good news is i thought what have i got to tell you and i stopped drinking to come to parliament i can't believe by the way usually it's the other way around they drink more the way that mandelson took like his sense of entitlement i'm the opposite i cringe every time somebody opens the door for me i lost six stone i went to egypt and i'd 80 of my stomach removed so that I could be as healthy as I could be to be here.
35:50I took this so seriously.
35:52Lewis Goodall:Really? Yes. Because they said you can't go into strangers and get drunk and embarrass yourself in the party. And I'm like, you're absolutely right. This is power and this is responsibility. And it's my job to use it as well as I possibly can. I was just saying, Natalie, that is such a class thing. No, as in, I know exactly what you're saying, right? If you're from a working class background and suddenly you're in the elite, you're so worried that someone will find you out yes that you sort of do everything you can but people who are not from that background they go the opposite way because there's a sense that well of course of course they'll accept me for who i am because i am who i am yeah and then when people were actually quite nice about the whole oh it does you know you were groomed and you were so it doesn't really matter i'm like yeah but you know that i was also homeless and they're like yeah that doesn't matter and i was like yeah but there's also domestic violence and that and i was like yeah and I oh and you know there's lots of other stuff that's really difficult and it's not just one thing it's lots and they're like yeah you still deserve to be here and I'm like wow just on the drinking I fell off the wagon Monday night that's the impact politics has that's how much us delivering as a Labour government means to me and I just woke up the next day and I thought I've got to just be kind to myself and just keep going because there are there are generations There's a third of kids in every class that live in poverty that need us to deliver.
37:14Lewis Goodall:You've alluded to this already, but in terms of being groomed and the man who groomed you and raped you, you've obviously had that conversation with your children about whether to report it. And you said you just can't bear it, partly because of the system, right? So this is what I was going to tell you about the good news. The good news is, as I said, I went to my children, the two older children, and I said, I've got to tell you everything. I've got to get everything on the table because I don't want stuff to come out. because during my selection it was so they didn't know well sorry i'll tell you that bit so they said i said to them i think this was really dodgy conception and they're like mum you were groomed it's just like they're like i'm glad you finally come around to it mum because this is quite embarrassing so they were ahead of you yeah they're like yeah we get it we see it grooming didn't exist as a word when i was younger this wasn't a thing no conception of no yeah there it's like you're a slapper and this is your fault and you're irresponsible you've ruined your life you've ruined your baby's life you're both going to amount to nothing and you've got nobody to blame but yourself they're the stories that I heard a generation less not that many years and we can see the difference they're like yeah this is grooming and you know what gives me hope about that is that that's why I keep using my voice to speak up about rape because right now 200 women are raped every day and nobody talks about it.
38:30We spend so long hiding men's crimes. You'll have a high-profile woman like Madame Pellico. What a hero. But she tells us that shame should change sides. And we hear her, but then we're not speaking out because we're really, really scared. My other, the vision I have of the future is that if I keep speaking out and encouraging others to do so, we can do it that my granddaughter can tell her grandchildren how crazy it was that women used to hide men's crimes, that any man could rape any woman and get away with it. Because the chances are you're going to get away with it.
39:07Lewis Goodall:You must have women come to you regularly saying they've been raped and sexually assaulted. I think that women, every woman has got a story. It's on a spectrum. It starts with like, oh, that was a bit dodgy, to the stuff we were talking about with the FIADs. Every woman's got a story. I'm sure you would try and enable them to make their own decision. But I'm just curious that given the state of the criminal justice system as it is can you in good conscience tell them to go and report it no no you can't no when i think that's one of the reasons that they come to me all i do when they come to me and it's all the time sometimes it's via email sometimes it's often in person with one woman it just came out and she went i'm shocked i didn't know that i'd never heard those words before i didn't know i've been raped and i've just told you what i do every time and i've learned this because it's what i would want to happen is I don't tell her what she's got to do that's up to her I listen to her and I believe her and that is so powerful and that's something that we can do every listener can help change stigma around rape and get more women to speak out by not questioning her not thinking they've got to fix it not thinking I know the solution I'll come to the police station with you no just listen and believe her and that is so powerful I'm very struck as well that you've spoken out about precisely on this theme in favor of the government's proposals to change jury trials or the way jury trials operate for rape victims this is obviously very controversial within parts of the Labour Party just generally why do you think it would be a good idea so politics is volatile and I've had people say to me why are you doing this Natalie why are you defending something like that we you know why are you putting your head above the parapet I've learned very quickly that I have to make my decisions as a politician from here.
40:53There's no other way I can do it because I said you know what if we U-turn you're going to look stupid. No I'm talking about the changes to jury trials because I believe it. I absolutely believe it. So when I look in my inbox the most common words are rape and suicide. They're the biggest are the biggest things that people contact me about because two go hand in hand and you know what doesn't help around that is the years that these women have to wait. The reason I think these two things are absolutely linked is in this country we have something called either way trials. It means that it could either go to magistrates or it could go to Crown Court and the accused gets to choose where it goes.
41:41in other countries they don't get to choose some countries like France the prosecutor gets to choose I don't think we should go that far but I do think they shouldn't have a choice because what it means is that you've got people with low-level crimes that are thinking I can have a couple of Christmases with my children I can wait years for trial there was one bloke I was talking to he'd waited had two children while he'd been waiting to go to prison and when he goes to prison it won't be for as long as he's been waiting because he's a father now yeah and it means that he he's empowered it is so because people are choosing which way it goes it means that it's adding to the delay so what we're talking about is that magistrates have more power i think that is a good thing i I also want to say that the biggest trial that I'm aware of, Madame Pellico, there wasn't a jury in her trial.
42:36And nobody asks about the legitimacy of that. We're saying that we're going to protect jury trials for the cases that they're absolutely right for. Because I hate it when people talk about, are you going to scrap jury trials? It's just not true. They're really important.
42:51Lewis Goodall:Is there something about the nature of jury trials? That they're more likely to believe men over women? Is that it as well? My mate was a juror and he said they couldn't believe the 15-year-old because she just wasn't a credible enough witness and it just always stays with me. That was about 10 years ago, that always stays with me. But no, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with jury trials. I think the right to be tried by your peers is really important, but there's this middle part where we can speed things up if we just have a judge for the appropriate crimes and I absolutely back that. I was really struck by something you wrote in the New Statesman about this when you said, women think it's all their fault that they've been raped because British society tells them that it is.
43:34Lewis Goodall:What do you mean by that? I mean that every day I hear myself talking to people like you, people that I respect. You're a very big deal. And there are lots of people that speak to me all the time. And they praise me and they've got things to say. And I just don't, I have embedded it so deeply that this is my fault. this is this was my fault I behaved inappropriately I did the wrong thing and this is my fault and I genuinely believe that I will believe that till the day that I die I I'm gonna say it a million times that it isn't I'm gonna tell women it isn't their fault but everything about us the what not the things we say the way that we behave speaks to victims.
44:22So you know right now Epstein victims, our fired victims, they are watching what we do. They're not listening to what we say. And what we're doing is we're taking their story and their bravery and we're using it to get rid of Morgan McSweeney, to tell a story about men, to ask questions about who knew who, who knew what and what parliamentary method can we use to blame the government. It's right the government's held to account. But if we were talking about the victims with the same passion that we're speaking about how wrong the government were, I think it'd be really beneficial for the government.
45:00My daughter is 90 % likely to be sent a dick pic now she started secondary school. it starts from birth don't be seen don't be heard don't be difficult don't ask questions don't talk too much I've only spoken 31 times in the chamber and I have been called out for that publicly on x by another MP I left the chamber this morning because I felt too scared sat there and I left and I didn't ask a transport question when it's so deeply ingrained in you do not be seen do not be heard do not speak up that's constantly fighting with the part of me that says you are an empowered woman that has got a platform and a responsibility to use it they're constantly in conflict we men and women all of us and the prime minister gets this i think that we as women have experiences they're never going to be the same as you as men the more we listen to those and the more we adapt our behaviour accordingly.
46:06So really small things that we can do. I was a trade union representative, chair of loads of meetings, and I would just always make sure that I called a man and woman equally. And always make sure that if I was in a room that I made sure I went to the women and made sure that they come in because you're so taught that bad things are going to happen to you, it's going to be your fault, and there's not a lot you can do about it.
46:30Lewis Goodall:I've been very struck this last week. There's a sentence we've just heard again and again which sort of echoes what you were just saying and we've heard it in particular for example from very senior royals the royal family how thoughts are with the victims do you think anyone really believes that or means it when they say it? loads of people say it and it's a really good thing to say and now is our chance to say okay so this is great that your thoughts are with the victims how are you going to demonstrate that? are you going to put pressure on the form of Prince Andrew to go and share what he knows.
47:07Are you going to, I mean, as I say, you know, people are asking me how they can help in a way that they never have. And I am just giving them concrete things that they can do. Like I just said to you, see her, believe her silently. Don't go out and shout about the fact that you believe her and I'm an ally. Just do it every day. There are things that we can do to make the most of this moment.
47:30Lewis Goodall:Are you satisfied with what the royal family have done and said? Is it enough? So I got to meet the actual queen. I got to meet Queen Camilla and I told her that there were 10 women in this country that gave birth every day as a result of rape. We're not talking about the Democratic Republic of Congo or a faraway place. And this isn't something, this is something that's only addressed in this country through academic papers. And it's not something that's reflected in the law. And I told her that and she said, I want to help you. And I believe that they are really good campaigners and they have power.
48:06And I want to see them use it. But what I also love, I hate this for them, I hate that they're going through this. But what I love is that they are showing that when it comes to rape and sexual assault, if a quarter of women are affected, then that means that every single one of us, me included, knows a rapist. We don't necessarily know they're a rapist. but they are everywhere including in the royal family and no amount of power or wealth makes
48:32Lewis Goodall:you immune from that it's funny natalie i just want your reflections really you've been 18 months in westminster now is it what you thought it would be oh it's a million times harder really if i could have had a by-election at any point and guarantee that my seat would go to a Labour MP, then I wouldn't be here. Really? Yeah. I'd go home, I'd wear my pyjamas to the shop, I'd hang out with my granddaughter, I'd not miss snow days with the kids because I'm in London. I wouldn't have a sickness in my chest every Monday when I have to come down and I have to leave my family. I wouldn't be worried constantly about not being believed.
49:14I wouldn't be worried about being seen i wouldn't be worried about people being disappointed in the government and feeling like it was my fault i wouldn't be worried about us not going fast enough and doing enough on vogue when we're doing more than we've ever done i wouldn't be struggling with this sense of responsibility but there's another part of me that thinks you're not going anywhere you're here for a reason you've got to be an absolute badass that has arrived and uses the power that you have been gifted.
49:44Lewis Goodall:I don't think anyone would doubt that. Just why is it harder? Even harder than you thought? What is it about the place? I mean, is it just broken? I mean, is it just a system and a place that's just supposed to be one thing and actually is another? There's definitely a class thing. I dropped out of uni. I went to the University of Nottingham. They were really kind to me. They were really good to me. But when I rocked up with two kids, not as a mature student at the same age as them, when they'd be having gap years, I'd been using my gap years to have my children and I ended up dropping out not because I couldn't do the work but because I didn't feel like I fitted in so it is a crazy place but being in government is hard like you have to make hard decisions and you can't please everybody but having power when like somebody like me gets to have an amendment that the government accepts and then I get to to create a law that's never existed before.
50:38I mean, that's unreal.
50:40Lewis Goodall:And you're in a constituency that in some ways Bolsover, which is sort of the best constituency. Well, yeah, they all say that don't they? I'm sure yours is right. Mine is, yeah. But it's sort of got a kind of romantic place for the Labour Party because of course it was Dennis Skinner's seat from 1970, so for 50 years, then lost in 2019. It was kind of one of those red wall seats that had always been Labour, ex-mining and sort of it felt totemic of that change. You win it in 2024. Reform, obviously, will be sniffing around it. Farage will be exactly the sort of seat that Farage will be focusing on and targeting.
51:13Lewis Goodall:Absolutely honestly, when you go back to the constituency, you must feel that swing towards them, right? So you can only focus on what you deliver. They are used to having a celebrity MP. Dennis Skinner's pictures, it was his birthday this week. Dennis Skinner's pictures are up in the pub. Everybody's got a story about how great he was, but they still voted him out in 2019. I am acutely aware of that. but I'm the first woman MP and constantly constantly get told you don't deserve to lick his boots you you know I can't believe you're a disgrace to his memory you shouldn't be here he was a hero and you're just a sellout or whatever else it is they want to say when they're throwing rocks and then I go to the constituency and last week there was a 91 year old man that I was the second ever person to tell that he was abused when he was younger.
52:07And he told me. And they come up to me in the street and they write to me, they send me letters and every time they say, Doc, you are doing us proud and Dennis would be proud. That's a very big deal.
52:25Lewis Goodall:Natalie Fleet, thanks so much for coming in. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.
52:58Lewis Goodall:That's orderlymeds.com slash podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice. Eligibility required. See site for details.
53:10Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. Well, I found that deeply moving, and I know our team here did as well. How could you not? You can see that tension in her, hear it in her, that class thing. Should I really be here? Do I deserve to be here? Am I an odd one out here? Whereas really, in a fuller, fairer democracy than our own, she wouldn't be the one asking that. In an era where people feel such disconnect from their democracy, where they feel that politicians aren't real people with real experiences, I wonder how much smaller that gulf between government and governed would be if we heard more voices like that.
53:53Lewis Goodall:Whatever you think of her party or her politics, I just don't think anyone could be in much doubt how much better, more rounded, more real our politics and Parliament would be with more. Natalie Fleets. That is it from all of us on the newsagents this week. Thanks as ever to our production team, Natalie Inge, Anna Georgievich, Arvin Butterwell, Mikey Baggs, Jess Williamson and Shane Fennelly. Our executive producer is Louis Dagenhart. Our editor is Tom Hughes. It's presented by Emily Maitlis, occasionally John Sopel and me, Lewis Goodall. Don't forget to tune in to my Sunday LBC show Sunday with Lewis Goodall for the best interviews and analysis on a Sunday morning.
54:30Lewis Goodall:I repeat, if you've seen a Sunday morning politics show and don't like it, you'll probably like this one because it's not boring. We'll see you on Monday. Have a lovely weekend. This has been a Global Player original production.
From the publisher
It has been a dizzying week in UK politics since the publication of the latest of the Epstein files, and the revelations of his links to Westminster. But as the politics took over, it is the voice of survivors that is the centre of this story.
This Friday Lewis is joined by Natalie Fleet, Labour MP for Bolsover, to discuss the politics of the last week, finding a voice for the women and victims of grooming, and whether she trusts the Prime Minister to deliver.
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/