Seb Coe | Door open for Russia's return, 'Enhanced Games' threat & Man Utd's new stadium - The Sports Agents

12:45Gabby Logan:They are. And we spoke to Seb Coe, Lord Seb Coe, who is a massive Chelsea fan. We did this before the, before the firing of Rosinia, but he does sound in pain, doesn't he? When we talk to him about Chelsea.

13:00Mark Pougatch:It does. It would have been interesting to ask him who next, wouldn't it? Because I was, you know, discussing where Iriola goes next last night to, to a Leeds fan who was sat next to me and, saying that potentially if Eddie Howe is let go by Newcastle, that he'd be a great match for the club, it feels like. But now there's a big vacancy at Chelsea.

13:21Gabby Logan:But he's been part of a brilliant system, Hazira Ola. And I'm not denying his ability. And we have said several times, they're the team that we pay to watch and so on and so forth. But the way they replace players, the way they've even replaced him, there's no fuss they just keep going the football is brilliant now he will have to go into a different culture and it will be a different culture at Newcastle to a different culture at Chelsea to a different culture at Athletic Bilbao if that was where he was going it's a bit like Frank going from Brentford isn't it or Potter from Brighton it doesn't necessarily work

14:02Mark Pougatch:no well no exactly and would you if you were him he does seem to be somebody the way he set himself out here even at Bournemouth about honouring his contract at the end. And he doesn't seem like somebody who would be lured just because it's Chelsea. You know, I feel like he would make a more sensible decision than some people's to get their heads turned. And listen, when I say sensible, Thomas Frank told us, didn't he, on this podcast, he knew that it was probably not going to end well for him wherever he went next because the system was so perfect for him at Brentford.

14:34Gabby Logan:Remember, you can catch up previous episodes on YouTube, Global player or wherever you get your podcasts and you can subscribe or follow and leave us a review

14:43Mark Pougatch:so how does the future of athletics and world sport look we're going to find out a bit more next from lord sebastian co

14:57Mark Pougatch:seb thank you for joining the sports agents off air they're talking about your lifelong commitment to chelsea football club and i remember you and i once having a little off air debate it's at full stretch at the moment, I have to say. Well, we can get into that and your hopes and aspirations for the season and seasons ahead. And you and I are having a little debate about which was the truer global sport, athletics or football? I think it has to be football. You were defending athletics at the time. Even I'm... I have to concede that. In terms of reach, we've got 200... You know, Gabby, you follow our sport closely, but we've got 211, 213 federations.

15:41We've got as many as there are in FIFA but I have to accept that in terms of reach and impact, it's obviously football but I think we are I genuinely think there are only really two truly global sports. One is football, the other is track and field and now running if you look at road and marathons.

16:03Gabby Logan:Yeah. Before we get Before we go on to athletics, I'm always interested by people who are football fans, but have also either been an elite athlete like yourself or an experienced sport administrator like yourself. And therefore, you know, you know how ridiculous we can all be at times. Do you lose, you know, leave of your senses and become a proper and when you are a fan? All the time. In fact, my son and my daughter were with me in the stadium in Munich when we sort of plucked victory out of what looked very uncertain on 83 minutes with that wonderful header from Drogba. And I lost it. I completely lost it.

16:50I was standing next to Steve Redgrave. It's now part of his after dinner story circuit about how I did. I completely lost it in the stadium. So, yeah, look, we're all mad. And, you know, the fans tend to put up with anything, don't they? It's the blind optimism at the beginning of every season. It's your season. And clubs play on that a little bit, too, if I'm being honest.

17:16Mark Pougatch:Yeah, of course they do. And that's why you keep buying season tickets in home. Yeah, of course. That's why I've still got four season tickets at Chelsea.

17:24Gabby Logan:Said he threw gritted teeth at the moment.

17:26Mark Pougatch:And this might seem like a strange segue, but it won't be the first on this podcast.

17:31Gabby Logan:It's a one-show special going on. Yeah, it's one of my one-show specials.

17:34Mark Pougatch:But actually, I think that is what Michael Johnson was trying to tap into with Grand Slam Track and he was trying to harness that passion for track and field that seems to, you know, especially around the Olympics and the Big World Championships and somehow create individual fan bases, you know, so that you would want to follow those athletes and those stars around the world and see them compete and have these great, head to heads and and there was something of that in the 80s when you had that with Steve Ovette and and Steve Cram and and the Friday night kind of battles that you had look actually going back into the segue um football's an interesting one for us because when I started coming through the sport in the late 70s it was an interesting time I always remember Brendan telling me that when he was putting on the Gateshead track meet, Newcastle United would routinely bring him up at the beginning of the season and say, Bren, are you going Friday night or Saturday?

18:38And if he was going Saturday, Newcastle United would move their game to the Friday night. I mean, how far have we come now? It does have changed. And, you know, the reality of it is that I was very lucky and I was the beneficiary along with Daly and Tessa and Steve Steve and latterly Crammy as well. Because if I'm being blunt, we started to win things not just domestically and not just in Europe, we were winning things globally. And there were very few British English sports that were replicating that. You know, football had been in the doldrums for a long time. We'd missed a couple of World Cups in a row and our clubs were banned from Europe.

19:20Cricket couldn't get a win, you know, if it tried. rugby was you know we was well we're being hammered by the welsh most of the time but it we it was athletics was the beneficiary of some of our really underperforming national sports at the time and suddenly we we came through and i i i always look back and i think that actually we we were quite lucky in that not a yeah daily and steve and people like that had monumental talent but it was also we we also came through at a time when so many other sports were underperforming and you know it was back page and and front page lead when you know records got broken so so how

20:05Gabby Logan:does that work in the modern era then because arguably british athletics we can we'll talk globally a little bit later on but british athletics feels like it's in one of its strongest period that it's been for a while with recognisable names, Seb, you know, recognisable names that have cut through. But how does that cut through even more within a sporting landscape where sports maybe aren't as accommodating to each other as they were with Newcastle? I know where this is going. But they're not, are they? No, but look, I didn't actually answer your question, Gabby, which was an important one and that is the biggest challenge we've always had in athletics is we're not a game and and i know that sounds a bit frivolous but you know you don't say you know you don't say to an athlete come on let's go down to harringay athletic club or hallamshire harry's and sheffield and play 800 meters my kids are interesting they they've all they all love athletics they all watch athletics but they all play team sports and I think that what you get out of team sports typically is a more tribal approach we tend to be very we tend to be quite democratic in our in athletics you can have a really underperforming domestic athletics team and the fans are broad-based enough to go, well, actually, all right, we haven't got, at this very moment, some top-performing UK athletes, but we've got Sydney McLaughlin or we've got Faith Kip-Jagan or we've got Mondo coming to the Olympic Stadium and we'll still go and watch it, whereas it doesn't translate.

21:54That's a great asset for us to have, But it doesn't always engender that kind of blind passion and loyalty. And you're right. I mean, we have on occasions tried to replicate that. We talked about, you know, a few years ago, we talked about having city teams competing against each other. I just think the nature of athletics, which is, you know, we come together as a team and we come together as relays. But let's be honest about it. It's 47 different sports all wrapped into one. It's quite hard to engender that.

22:30Mark Pougatch:So you kind of need to lean into that then, don't you? The fact that it does have that point of difference. And I think one of the things going back to what Michael seemed to be trying to achieve was the great head to heads. If you can't have that tribal kind of loyalty to your area in athletics, you can enjoy those great rivalries. And we saw that again in the world indoors, didn't we? because Josh Kerr, you know, he loves having, you know, the kind of rivalries and pointing out kind of, you know, Cole Hawker had done that celebration. So then he went and kind of replicated it. Give me head-to-heads.

23:05Just give me head-to-heads any day of the week over world records or times. People do respond to head-to-heads. And look, I was probably part of one of the more notable head-to-heads for a maturer group of your listeners that will remember that. But, you know, again, having head-to-heads is really important. And Mondo, just the other day in Poland, I chatted to him after retaining his indoor title. He said he'd never been pushed harder. He was absolutely exhausted. In fact, he didn't. He had one. He had a couple of attempts. He could have had a couple of attempts at a new world record height. He said, no, I was absolutely wasted.

23:53I'd never. He said, I hadn't I can't remember a time where I had to dig so deep. And that's a good thing. And the more the more head to head.

24:01Mark Pougatch:The Greek athlete who's pushing him, who's also a crowd pleaser, isn't he, as well? Absolutely. And what we've got now is, look, I probably would say that wouldn't I as president of the sport. But I'm more optimistic about the future of our sport than I've probably been at any stage in the 10 or 11 years I've been doing this job. Why? Well, because we've got younger talent coming through. We've got younger talent that is getting noticed. We've got the Mondos and we've got the Faiths and we've got the Sydney McLaughlins. the the challenge for the sport is if i'm being open here the challenge for our sport is we're still not present for enough of the year track and field tends to be you know okay if you're based in southern california you can get some earlier meets but by and large track and field is a may june through to september and we've got to find ways of extending the season It's not how you would have chosen it, but climate change actually is probably going to force us to do that.

25:10Interestingly, you may have noticed that we've removed the marathon out of our world championships at the end of the year. And we're now bringing it as a standalone earlier in the season in Athens for a number of reasons. Firstly, climate change. If you are true to your word about athlete welfare, it is, you know, we can't keep going to world championships and building field hospitals for our endurance athletes. And secondly, a lot of our marathon runners were the best fields weren't turning up at that time of year, partly for heat. And also because quite soon afterwards, you get into the marathon majors, the Chicago's and New York.

25:54So climate change is probably going to make us address a number of things about the length of the season.

26:04Mark Pougatch:You've already mentioned that the World Marathon Championship has been taken out of the World Athletics Championships. The ultimate championship, which you refer to later this year, is not a world championship, but it's another new competition. Just give us a little bit of a kind of framework of that and how it's going to happen. We looked at something that might actually do what we talked about earlier, which is unlocking new audiences, maybe young people that haven't been familiar with our sport and trying to find a new format. So in simple terms, the format is three nights. It's unashamedly designed for TV.

26:43It'll be three hours per night. 16 of the top track and track athletes in a semi and a final. Eight of the top field eventers in a straight final. balance in male and female event not every discipline as we can't obviously put that in over the course of the three nights and a 10 million dollar prize pot which is bigger than we've ever introduced and it's a very different model so we'll be encouraging the athletes and giving them the ability to bring their own the new world their content creators so they can work and promote their own interests around these championships. So it's a very, very different format.

27:27I won't bore you with all the details.

27:29Gabby Logan:Sorry, Ted, do they compete as individuals or do they compete under their countries? They compete as individuals. So, look, the reality of it is if you've got 16 of the top sprinters, it could easily be that five of them are from the US and four or five from Jamaica. we decided we wanted the best of the best but they will be competing in their national uniforms okay because we also know uh from our own research that that actually gathers a larger audience than than you know a group of equally talented athletes but all running in different kits people do like that national that national attachment oh the women's hurdles will be

28:13Mark Pougatch:interesting i think there was there was one point wasn't there in the last couple of years where i I think the top eight, seven of them were American.

28:19Gabby Logan:But you still get the best of the best though, don't you? Yeah, yeah. We want it to be the best of the best. We want the bragging rights at the end. And, you know, I guess it's a little bit like the ATP.

28:29Mark Pougatch:And this one's in Budapest, isn't it?

28:31Gabby Logan:In Budapest this year, yeah. To sort of mix several themes together to follow on from that. How do you view the global situation when it comes to hosting events? And you can go at different levels here. You can go with your big Diamond League events and the attraction for cities of hosting that. You could look at the current state of the Commonwealth Games and whether people want that or not. And then you could actually go to the really supercharged ones of Olympic Games or World Cups. And whether that pool, from who you talk to and anecdotally, whether that pool is really shrinking, whether the appetite is becoming less and less.

29:12it's really interesting i sit on a working group at the international olympic committee and the only reason i mention that is that two hours before this podcast we were discussing exactly that what is the new operating model for an olympic games how can you reduce cost how can you make sure that local communities really understand what you're doing it was every challenge i faced in London what's the difference between a cost and an investment you know everybody wants to you know bring both budgets together operating an infrastructure well I would argue that infrastructural improvement in East London was an investment for you know communities for the next century the cost of the games is actually what it costs you to put on and that's always a difficult argument.

30:01Mark Pougatch:On where you host World Athletics Championships London would would love to see the championships coming back in 2029. Keeley Hodgkinson, who's arguably one of the greatest athletes in the world at the moment, has kind of thrown her hat into the controversy ring, hasn't she? Suggesting that West Ham should be happy to hand it over to the World Athletics Championships because there'll be more, what was her quote again? More medals at the London Stadium than the Hammers have ever had in their entire history, she said. Over like a true Manchester United fan. She seemed to handle the clickbait very well.

30:36Mark Pougatch:what is your current position? I love Keely because you will only get authenticity. Yeah. There's none of this, oh, I'll see how I feel tomorrow or, you know, one match at a time. She absolutely tells it as it is. And just, I mean, I think she's joyous company apart from anything. Well, she knows as well, Seb, doesn't she? Let's be honest, in two summers, three summers time, the stage she is now, that will be pretty much getting towards the peak of her powers. Yeah, it will. And which is incredible to think when you consider she's a Olympic champion already. And she's close this summer, you think, as well, to going for an outdoor world record as well as the indoor world record she has.

31:15Mark Pougatch:So she knows where her bread's buttered, but she also knows what 2017 was like for this country. And, you know, actually, we're talking about conditions for athletes. We really are quite well placed in this country, aren't we? In the autumn, in producing conducive kind of conditions. Well, next. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this year is probably the biggest year in British athletics. If you think we've got a Commonwealth Games, we've got a European Games, the championships, we've got a great Diamond League. We've got, you know, it's probably the best year for athletics in the UK since 2017. And Keeley's not wrong.

31:53I mean, she knows. I'm pleased she knows her worth. And, you know, she is as well. She could be. Well, I say she could be. She is. I mean, she's off the graph good, but she is. She's still got. If you look statistically, she's still got a couple of years before she hits her peak. is an interesting study that was done. I don't know whether it's certainly done for men, but the peak age for a middle distance athlete to be breaking world records of winning Olympic titles is 23 years and eight months. And she's still got a little bit of a way to go. So it's, you know, she knows that 29s are actually new.

32:34Mark Pougatch:Isn't it? I was really hoping you were going to say somewhere towards the late 20s, but that is... Hey, hang on a minute. You two are worrying about that. How do you think I feel? you've had yours you've had your world record oh thanks gabby yeah great there's an interesting paradox in athletics as well at the moment which is this rise in running is incredible and running influencers and last year over a million people well over a million applying for the under marathon which only has 55 000 places you know and the biggest ever and it is an inspiring day and certainly captivates the imagination and yet a lot of those running influencers couldn't tell you what event Keely Hodgkinson even runs because there's a kind of Venn diagram, isn't there, where they're not necessarily all...

33:16Mark Pougatch:I experienced this myself when I was doing a half marathon and training with a guy who has a big running app and we ran past somebody in Richmond Park who's a big influencer runner and he was so excited about seeing this influencer runner and I was thinking, I sat next to Paula Radcliffe on the telly the other day, you haven't even asked me about her and it kind of blew my mind that that was an exciting thing. Gabby, it doesn't surprise me, but you watch our sport and you've picked up on one of the biggest challenges. You know, how does the woman that, I don't know, I'm just plucking out a number, breaks one hour 40 for the Great North Run, half marathon, when she's celebrating at the end for a personal best with friends, family and the charities she's run for, how does she relate what she's done to the sport that Usain Bolt raced?

34:07and this and this is the challenge it's a huge challenge 90 of the market is running you know the marathon majors are huge um you know we we work very closely with them and you know we have our road running championships in copenhagen later this year but running is huge but trying to get people to recognize that when they're in that mass participation side of the sport that they're still in the same sport that keely hodgkinson and and mondo de plantis are involved in it yeah

34:41Mark Pougatch:it is golf does it doesn't it you know people that wander around augusta i would i would argue i mean you can tell me because you were there last week but i would say most of those people own a set of golf clubs yes absolutely and so they play the same game the interesting thing about our participation races of course there are very few sports where you can genuinely say as the London Marathon that you were in the same race as the person, male or female athlete, that could potentially be breaking the world record

35:11Gabby Logan:on Sunday. And I'll be honest with you, the three times I did it, it never felt like I was in the same race as whoever won it. I can get you counselling.

35:21Mark Pougatch:Can we talk about some more serious points? Well, like I think of,

35:24Gabby Logan:if Rory McIlroy was the hole ahead of me whilst I was at the Marathon. Would you mind getting a shuffle off, please? Sorry, Rory.

35:32Mark Pougatch:Rory's saying, can you play through more? Seb, there are some other serious threats to sport generally and geopolitics, you know, kind of rears its head in many different ways. And obviously athletics took a very firm stance on Russia very early on. And we've seen obviously this year at the Winter Paralympics, the return of Russian athletes. Swimming is also allowing Russian athletes back to compete and Belarusian athletes. where where do you stand on that having been so vocal and firm on it at the very beginning Gabby we haven't shifted our position on this and it's worth remembering and you you did make the point that actually this has been a long journey for us it's been a longer journey than any other Olympic sport because I think well I got elected it to the presidency of the sport in Beijing in in september 25 by uh november of 25 of 15 rather by november of that year we'd actually suspended the russian federation for you know the industrial scale you know doping and and cheating and i when i became president i'd confronted i had to confront an in-tray that contained well over 140 positive tests in two years so even if i'd wanted to turn a blind i couldn't i had to do something so that journey was and it has been an interesting one we created the task force but it was really done the the suspension of russia was about the integrity of the sport and you know and and that's what we did it wasn't about passports or politics i i went to moscow i fought him you know probably the most powerful peacetime prime minister that we had.

37:20I mean, the jury's out. That was an interesting tussle. So, you know, I didn't ever set out in sport philosophically or practically to stop people from competing. But, you know, you can only deal with what is in front of you. And I'm not a great one about, well, what about? Because, yes, you could probably, we could in this podcast, identify at least 20 other whatabouts. So the reality around Russia was was a very simple one. We had to get that federation back into a reasonable order. And actually, interestingly, we have. I was discussing this with the Athletic Integrity Unit not long ago. They test all those athletes and they are being tested probably doubly, even though they're not in competition at the moment internationally.

38:14They're being tested doubly what we would normally be doing with other athletes. So we've got that system. Of course, the Ukraine situation intervened and the council, for again, reasons of integrity of competition, maintained the suspension.

38:33Mark Pougatch:Just going on, because of what the Paralympics have done, one assumes that, you know, looking ahead to L.A., the Olympic Association may well follow suit. And so does that concern you then that there will be Russian athletes competing on the track? Look, I've never benchmarked in the sport and neither has my council. And remember, we have a 26 strong global council. I've got council members from Beijing to San Diego, from northern Mariana Islands to Manaus in Brazil. We are really spread. And we're actually, interestingly, Gabby, we're the only global council that's gender balanced 50 percent.

39:17We have 13 members who have 26 members, 13 men, 13 women. So it's not, you know, it's not male heavy either. And the reality of it is that we have a we have a we had a very, very clear view about what the integrity of that landscape looked like. And it was really important that we held to that. But I don't knock the Olympic movement for wanting to try and find a way through this. You know, we've had groups looking at what might need to prevail in order for us to remove that suspension. I think the view that, well, I know the view that the council has taken is that nothing much has changed in that landscape.

40:06I know it's changed in what we have asked from them in terms of anti-doping codes. That has clearly changed and they have a new federation. And I absolutely bow to them on that. But the remaining challenge is still huge. But everybody should be trying to figure out it's not a good position to have major sporting nations sitting outside the framework. work but it you know you do you can only as i said you can only deal with what is in front of you

40:42Gabby Logan:and our sport made a a tough judgment many years ago you mentioned there said that anti-doping to to move it on to that one of the first podcasts that myself and gabby ever did two and a half years ago was on the enhanced games i mean i assume you're discussed at it i've never asked you about it and the second point is do you do you worry that you will lose athletes to it because of the financial offerings that they are serving up well to deal with the second part first no i don't uh look it is inevitable some may decide to do that i don't think it's a mass exodus but look i was the first athlete back in 1981 yes i am carbon dating myself now i was the first athlete to ever address an Olympic Congress.

41:31I was given four minutes to synthesize the views of 38 athletes that were invited to that Congress. And bear in mind that the Berlin Wall existed. The sport was still separated east and west. And of the four minutes I was given, I spent two minutes, 41 seconds, I remember it well, talking about the danger of uncontrolled drug abuse in sport. And I was talking about it before, if I'm being a bit blunt here, it became de rigueur to talk about it. And I then was part, when I was in politics and the UK Sports Council, part of writing a report that introduced independent testing into the British system that became the blueprint for many global months.

42:24When I became president of World Athletics, we created the Athletic Integrity Unit that made independent all our tests and took it away from the federation, took it away from political manipulation, which I'd witnessed. So, look, I don't think it's going to be a huge surprise when I tell you that, you know, you probably know how I feel. about this. I honestly don't think this, look, you know, you can only, you will only know going forward, but I honestly believe the vast majority of athletes come into our sport, they're grateful that we have better controls over anti-doping processes now than we've ever had.

43:07And I think they want to compete for the right reasons. And I'll probably leave it at that. I don't see this being a mass disruptor.

43:17Mark Pougatch:We've had quite a lot of questions in, actually, from our listeners. And quite a few of them pertain to the same subject, which is your role in Manchester United's new stadium. And I have to ask you this question because Mark's a fan, so he has to step back at this point. And the questions are around timescale. When is this stadium likely to be built and completed? and what price it will be in terms of the land that is required and I guess the other infrastructure and kind of gifts back to the city that you will have to or at least to the councils that you'll have to make. Look, I love regeneration projects and I was really pleased to be asked to get involved in that.

44:00Mark Pougatch:You were very good at one of them, weren't you? Yeah, well, I do believe in that. You know, I'm a sort of, I've got a, There's a streak of municipal socialism in me, believe it or not, having been a conservative minister. I do actually believe in good locally funded projects to make the life, you know, make lives easier for local people. And I also saw from the London model that if you build it around sport, the multiplier impact of getting other stuff done is far quicker than it would have been. The reality in East London is we built a new city inside an old city in seven years. We'd never have done that in East London had we not had the immutable timeline.

44:42So when Jim asked me if I would sit and chair the task force looking at the options around a new stadium, we sort of did that and scoped and gave some scale to it. It's for the club to decide ultimately. and then I got asked by Andy Burnham, the mayor of Manchester, who actually is a very good friend of mine and we worked very closely together on London because he was, of course, a Secretary of State when we started out on that journey. He then asked me to chair the Regeneration, the Mayoral Development Corporation in Manchester, which is now, you know, we're now going to be working with the local councils and various other agencies to deliver 45 ,000 socially affordable houses in that space as well.

45:32So it's a project that I'm actually really excited about being involved in. The land acquisition is always complicated. I know that from London. So at this moment, it's just putting the stuff together sequentially and incrementally and using a world-class stadium to be a catalyst for so many other things, including inward investment. So it's about jobs, it's about housing, it's about educational aspiration. I've seen sport so often used properly, changing local landscapes, and this is an exciting project. How long, though? Well, again, it's slightly uncertain at the moment. The stadium is being scoped and being improperly scaled.

46:21But again, that is also dependent on the purchasing and the acquisition of various other parcels of land in that space. You both know that. You both know the landscape we're talking about because it's pretty much opposite. You guys are all based opposite it, and you know the potential for that. So that's all taking place at the moment. And I won't maintain a running commentary on that. But we're moving in the right direction. OK.

46:51Mark Pougatch:Believe it or not, after almost an hour of chat, I think there's probably about another three or four topics we've left in our to-do list here.

47:00Gabby Logan:Well, I am open for future bookings. It's always fascinating to talk to you.

47:05Mark Pougatch:What we didn't get on the pod was our off-air chat about Chelsea, actually, and your history with Chelsea, which I kind of just nudged into your first question. So maybe at the end of the season, when you have or haven't qualified for Champions League football, we should have you back on to either vent or be abusive. Next year is a big year for me because it's the 60th anniversary, the first match I watched at Stamford Bridge. We beat Arsenal on December the 27th, 1967. We've eaten 2-1. And I think I'd said to you that the first time I ever met John Motson, he sort of summed up life as a Chelsea fan.

47:40And he said to me, you like football, don't you? I said, yes. He said, who do you support? I said, Chelsea. He said, Chelsea, they'll break your heart. And 60 years later, he wasn't wrong.

47:52Gabby Logan:That's a lot. I mean, it's both a lovely and a heartbreaking place to end it, I suppose. Thank you, Seb.

47:57Mark Pougatch:Thank you so much. Thank you.

47:59Gabby Logan:Thank you. That's it for today. Thank you very much for listening. Get in touch with your thoughts this weekend. Email us, sportsagents at global.com. message us on social media or that link is still there in the show notes.

48:12Mark Pougatch:And remember, all past episodes are available on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love you to subscribe and follow and leave us a review. Bye-bye.