Special Report: Belfast riots - how Elon Musk is stoking a new wave of British violence

27:33So I think that hopefully will create some kind of sense of unity of purpose because we know what it's like to sink into violence. But what do you say to the argument that, okay, maybe some bad actors make, but it doesn't mean it's a completely incorrect argument, which is to say that when more liberal forces, progressive forces, social democratic left-wing forces, when they say and accuse people like Farage or Musk or Lowe or whoever of stirring the pot. They say, no, we're not stirring the pot. You're stirring. There's a pot to be stirred here. The reason this is happening is because exactly those sort of politicians that I just described, on the left or the liberals or whatever you want to call them, don't address the fact that there is a problem, which is we've got people coming here, we don't know who they are.

28:15And although you're right, no ethnicity has a monopoly on violence, the truth is if that guy, we hadn't accepted him, that beheading or attempted beheading that terrible violence would not have occurred. We don't know all the circumstances around how he was managed or the individual case, but I think it's legitimate for people to ask questions about how this person was managed and how he got here and how he was monitored. I don't think that in and of itself is racist or unacceptable, given the seriousness of what he's done. I also don't think, though I'm someone who emphasises the positives of immigration, and I'm really, really clear about why immigration can be really important and is really important, and diversity in my constituency in South Belfast, which is probably the most diverse constituency on the island of Ireland, is so welcome, in part because we couldn't have an NHS without it.

29:02I would say that the idea that people are being prevented from talking about immigration policy or increasing immigration controls is just not borne out by the reality of policy decisions made in London. I mean, the Labour government has essentially followed stricter immigration policies, which differ in some ways but are largely a continuation of the previous Conservative government. People might say they're not strong enough. Other people will say they are too strong and they are hostile to people of colour. But I just don't think it's a reasonable argument to say that nobody is allowed to talk about immigration or that politicians are allowed to talk about immigration.

29:48What we do say is when you have events like last night in Belfast, and by the way, the city is now kind of semi-shutting down. This is a brilliant, vibrant city, but as you will have experienced getting here, public transport is being shut down, schools are being shut down. There does come a point when it's legitimate to say to politicians, can we please be careful in our language and understand the context in which we're operating? Well, I was going to ask you about that. You've alluded to it in terms of the role tech is playing. But, you know, I've only been here for a few hours and yet a number of people who then start talking about all these closures because they're seeing things online, they're being sent things on WhatsApp and they're being sent images of being told that roads are closing or businesses are closing.

30:31How is that? What is the story behind that? There seems to be a very particular phenomenon that's happening. And this is something that isn't just particular to the city or Northern Ancilly. This is something that's going to happen elsewhere and has already happened elsewhere. and perhaps because we have a relatively small community and of course you have tools like whatsapp as well as all the other platforms it enables information to be spread quickly and part of the challenge is I mean I mentioned people like Musk and Tommy Robinson stirring things up online and just to be clear to go back to the previous question I don't think Elon Musk or Tommy Robinson are interested in a set of policy proposals around how you manage immigration differently.

31:14I think they are interested in fomenting, I don't know what, just disorder, destabilization for reasons that are unclear. And that's not the same thing as saying we need to have to manage immigration differently or whatever, which is a political position, which is legitimate, even if I don't agree with it. But to go back to the point about how information is spread, we're clearly in a situation where, as well as actors with huge platforms spreading this information, sowing discontent. There's also how information just spreads and so is fear. Schools have closed, not necessarily because there's any really substantive or proven threat to an area or even planned disruption, but because if you are a school the principal or you manage a shop or a cafe, you have to make a decision about your staff and your customers and their welfare.

32:18And you're going to, in more cases than not, err on the side of caution. And that's why this slightly fascistic tendency to tell everybody that everything's shutting down at this time and then putting that on probably an AI-generated infographic, which takes a few seconds of time and is then being shared across WhatsApp. And it looks really official. And it looks official. And people who are busy, who knows? People who might think it's coming from, might think it is coming from either an official source or somebody who's properly organized. It could just be, we don't know, some, you know, idiot in their basement who's decided to cook this up and is on a few message boards.

32:58So that is really worrying. It's worrying because it can just disrupt society at the top of the hat. And I mean, I'm glad I'm chairing a committee downstairs in less than an hour. And I think it's important for people, we do kind of stand up to this a bit and say, well, life has to go on and we're not going to be shut down by this. And what are the, I mean, obviously we've seen this, you've already alluded to it, we've seen some of this play out before in other cities in the UK. But there are obviously particular dynamics here because of Belfast and Northern Ireland's particular history, unique history.

33:26What are the ways in which Northern Irish politics is feeding into this? In particular, you know, there's this accusation, a lot of this, or some of this at least, is as much about loyalist or unionist anxieties, which have been playing out for a long time, as much as the particulars of what we saw the other night. Well, certainly there have been particular protests and particular flashpoints in areas that are traditionally seen as loyalist working class areas. I think it's important to say, of course, that this is in no way representative of working class, unionist, loyalist communities. It isn't, and this only takes a very small number of often young people, perhaps people who don't have enough economic opportunity or feel frozen out of opportunity of one kind or another, who can be exploited.

34:16I don't know yet, but we will certainly be asking the police their view as to whether paramilitaries have had any involvement in coordinating this. Certainly in the past, we know that people who either are paramilitaries or have been loyalist paramilitaries in the past have had some role in coordinating this disorder in different contexts. So some of the historical issues within certain communities are playing into it, but also I suppose some of the historical structures. But I suppose you can play it both ways, one of which is to say that, yes, we have some of those issues. And by the way, it isn't just in loyalist working class areas.

34:57People, for example, gathered last night. It was areas that are associated with, I suppose, what is termed, though I hate using this phrase, the other community or the other side of the community. It is also true to say that people have a real resilience here. People have come through, obviously, violence and conflict and extreme violence, particularly in that part of Belfast. So there's resilience here too and I think an ability to face down extremism. And just finally, as a senior politician in Northern Ireland, what would your message be to Elon Musk and Nigel Farage and Rupert Lowe and others who have been commenting on this case and Northern Irish politics?

35:32Well, I would say, I mean, go away and stay out of this region, which you don't care about. I think the really important thing to bear in mind is those people don't care about the space. I mean, it's shocking the number of people who are all of a sudden experts on community relations and policymaking in Belfast. I mean, I know because I'm in the unique position of having worked in Whitehall for a very long time and then come to be a politician in Northern Ireland, how little any of these people care about what happens here. And it's really important to say that they don't get a right to warp and foment discontent in this place.

36:23I think they'll move on fairly quickly, to be honest. I think they'll move on to the next thing. It'll be something else next week. But the people whose minds they've warped, the disinformation they have spread, will have an impact on the people of color, the kids who are homeless, possibly still in their jammies from last night. Not to be too melodramatic about it, but that is literally true as we sit here now. And also the young men who will get criminal records as a result of the richest man in the world and his platform and this idiot with however many names he has, Tommy Robinson. and others, forcing them into actions which will give them a criminal record.

37:09I would also say for some of our local politicians who have a tendency to, they will say that there are concerns in those areas that they represent or claim to represent. No doubt there will be concerns and there will be views of immigration, that's true, and I wouldn't downplay that, but I would just warn them against cosplaying with some of the hard right either online or over in Britain because it hasn't gone well in the past and ultimately it will be there and the people who vote for them who lose out. So that will be my message. Go away to those people. There's two things which really struck me about what Matthew said.

37:46One is, again, the use of the word pogrom. Yeah. You know, which is, again, Northern Ireland has seen more than its fair share of political violence down by the last century on and off. But pogrom is a very particular word and it is one that, you know, you can literally see the legacy of in the street that we're standing on. And it's not a word that even in the history of this place, in the history of Ulster, certainly within the UK overall, it is not something about which we have much precedent. And it is really disturbing and chilling to me to hear a senior politician like that talking in terms like that.

38:20And the second is, I do think there is obviously, even though, as we've been saying, this is a story that's wider than Northern Ireland, there is a Northern Irish dimension. and that is that there may well be, it is true to say, we've been standing here, we've been hearing some of the lads go by talking about the UVA and talking about, which is, you know, the Ulster Volunteer Association and, you know, loyalist paramilitary groups and so on. And it will be true, I'm sure, and there is certainly suspicion in this city at the moment that at least some of this is being fused with loyalism and anxieties from loyalist groups who, frankly, are looking for trouble, right?

38:52Well, listen, what's happened here, it's the perfect storm. of so many bad things come together at the same time and what happened the other night that horrific attack and let's not forget the horrific injuries of the victim he lost a left eye he would have been dead now if it wasn't for other members of the community helping to say one who's an ethnic minority guy by the way yes exactly which has not been widely reported has it i just weird that elon hasn't been noted that funny that yeah um one for your next tweet tommy it's i really feel for this community now and if you go out there if you go out all the shops are shut even in the center of town half the shops are shut it seemed to me like there was a massive queue of cars trying to get out of the city that is how much fear is in this place and I spoke to quite a few people last night and they said that they hadn't seen trouble like that since the actual troubles um well we'll be here tonight obviously I think the police are braced for more um whether it'll be as severe as last night let's hope not but we'll be here to cover it um if it does the main thing to say of course is you can continue to follow it as well on lbc other global outlets as well and say we'll be back tomorrow

40:10from a range of trusted voices and award-winning journalists good morning i'm nick ferrari it's time to get to your calls find out the latest news and hear every side of the story he was actually treated in a way that meant an accusation of a racial slur was treated more seriously than an act of murder. They wanted riots and they got riots, aided and abetted by people who really should know better. But the next dimension of this tragedy could be even more troubling. Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

40:54well let's pick up on some of the themes that lewis explored in the first half there with mary hassan who is over from the u.s but is was a british-based journalist at the new statesman for a long time and you've come up come over to sort of launch a media company that you started in america zeteo and that you are now launching in the uk just before we get into the detail of Ireland and all of that. What is it? Zeteo is a company I launched in 2024 in the US after I left MSNBC. It's an independent media platform, all singing, all dancing. We do documentaries, podcasts, op-eds, shows. We've built a pretty big team in the US, 2 million subscribers on YouTube, 700 ,000 on Substack.

41:32So we thought, where do we expand next? And obviously I'm biased. I want to expand in my old home country in the UK. And you both know more than I do that there's a lot of news to cover in the UK right now. It's a little bit of a crazy place. You came here for a quiet time, admit it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I thought the US is so busy and the US is so chaotic. Let's go to a less chaotic country. But I do think genuinely I got the same feeling when I visited the UK earlier this year that I got in 2024, that there is a gap in the market, that there is a desire for something different when it comes to media consumption, especially on the left, but not just on the left.

42:02And I think just as people have been rejecting establishment politics in this country, I think they're rejecting establishment media. And I think there's a gap in the market for Zeteo UK, which we launched on Tuesday. So you come at a very interesting time because obviously over the past few years, and you've been on this podcast, we've talked about race in America and the sort of anti-Muslim sentiment of Donald Trump and so much more. And yet you come to Britain at a time where there's been this attack in Belfast and the reaction to the attack on the right where people are having their houses burnt out.

42:34And, you know, just because you're dark colored skinned, you could be a target for attack. What is happening? Do you think that we are following America in that dialogue, maybe, and that sense of where politics is going? I've always been worried. I've been in the US now coming up to 12 years. And I've always been worried in that time watching Trumpism and MAGA on the rise there that this would be copied in the UK. And the UK, you know this, John, you served a long time in the US. You were there before I got there. The UK follows what the US does just with a bit of a time lag politically, going back 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

43:07And I think the parallels are there now. I saw it during the pandemic when I, you know, remember there was one Tory MP, I forget his name, who was a bit of anti-vaxxer got kicked out. And he said, oh, that's weird. Are we getting anti-vax sentiment in the UK? That then took over. Similarly, you now have British politicians talking about mass deportations. You have political parties wanting to have a British ICE. It is very much looking at what Trump did on the right and trying to copy it. And hopefully it won't go as far here as it did there. In terms of the violent situation, thankfully, Britain still doesn't have the levels of gun violence or political violence that the United States has suffered from for a while.

43:39But what we're seeing in Belfast, I mean, you know, people are using phrases like pogrom. It is very worrying when you have, you know, gangs, masked gangs in the street setting fire to people who are not white. That is shades of some of the worst violence we've seen in the United States throughout U.S. history. And I think you need strong leadership in the West as a whole, not just in the U.K., to resist MAGA-ism, Trump-ism, Vance-ism from spreading. And by the way, this is not happening organically. They're trying to spread this stuff. Elon Musk is funding it. J.D. Vance is coming over and pushing it.

44:10This is not accidental either. I think we have to split out the disinformation that has been everywhere in the last 28, 48 hours on the streets of Belfast, pushed by the likes of Tommy Robinson, pushed by Elon Musk and this idea that it is an invasion and that this all goes back to the small boats and illegal immigrants. We know now that the alleged perpetrator of this absolutely egregious crime was, we understand, a Sudanese refugee who had been given status in this country for five years from 2023. So it wasn't a question of him being here illegally. Nevertheless, Mehdi, it is starting to open a debate, I think, about our approach to asylum now.

45:05Right. I mean, 10 years ago, we saw what Trump was doing with the Muslim ban. He literally had a list of countries that were not allowed to come. Zia Yusuf for reform has basically you know gone straight out there and said no one from Sudan would get a visa under reform I guess the question is is that where the British people are moving towards do you think we are fundamentally re-examining our approach to sort of kindness and asylum so just to pick up on what I just said to John I think we have to think about this being a political project. This is not happening organically. When you ask, Emily, are the British people moving towards, or are they being led towards?

45:48Are they being pushed towards? Are they being manipulated towards? I mean, Elon Musk is about to become the first trillionaire in the world once his SpaceX IPO happens, apparently. He's already the richest man in the world. He is funding Tommy Robbins' legal defence. He is promoting Rupert Lowe and Restore UK. That's not an accident. Why is the world's richest man in America who's got enough problems in America that he's got was. Why is he spending so much time agitating? Not the first time. Remember a year and a half ago when he was pushing all the... Keir Starmer was complicit in the rape of Britain.

46:17Labour minister should go to prison. So he's been doing this for a while. He's also backing the AFD, the far right party in Germany. This is a coordinated attempt to push the far right in all parts of Europe. And I just think we need to take a step back and say, the immigration debate, I've been a political journalist for 17 years. All I've ever heard is people saying, well, well, there's a legitimate debate to be had. And I said, OK, let's have the legitimate debate. But even this is not the legitimate debate because this was a refugee who was allowed in and approved under a conservative government.

46:47And when I hear people say, well, I didn't even know Zia Youssef, probably has no more Sudanese refugees. Sudan is an undeniable genocide. Forget Gaza, where people argue, argue, argue. No one disputes what's happening in Sudan. So the idea that you wouldn't take anyone in from Sudan because one Sudanese guy committed a crime is an astonishing statement. It's just it's the definition of bigotry and collective punishment. So do you think, OK, because you seem very confident and I guess this is really the rub of it. We know that there is money behind this. We know that it is globalization on a scale that we've never imagined before.

47:21We understand the messages being pushed. And the role of social media. And the role of social media and wealth and and the contacts between many of the far right agitators. nevertheless I guess what we are trying to get to the bottom of is has there been a shift in public sentiment have we just become hardened we are not in the 1950s we are not looking at the sort of same shape of the world as post-holocaust and the UN you know 1951 declaration so genuinely have the debate with us do you think that we do you think that we are starting to sort of change how we feel about the priorities of our country versus the priorities of those who are, you know, in terrible conditions?

48:05I would say yes and no. I would say yes in the sense that clearly the polls show that public sentiment is higher than it ever was against immigration. But then public opinion is malleable. Public opinion shifts. Just take where I live. I live in the United States. In 2024, Donald Trump was leading on immigration and the border by miles. He was running on this issue of Joe Biden didn't secure the border. People were angry. Democrats were angry. Latino communities in border states were angry. And he monopolized that issue and he weaponized that issue. You look at the polls now. 80 percent of Americans think immigration is a good thing.

48:38One of the highest numbers since pollsters started measuring that thing. He's now underwater on even immigration as an issue. so you could say well what happened to the American public between 2024 and 2026 well they saw what happened when you put someone like Trump in charge and they recognize that you cannot treat migrants in this way they saw on their street or he would argue that he he controlled the southern border and that meant it dropped off people's top concerns that's part of it on the border but in terms of for example ICE for example the handling of migrants for example the approval of mass deportations all down and I think that just shows that the American public which again has been lied to for a long time been very cynical about the world is it fundamentally generous public that doesn't want children being locked up or pulled away from their parents.

49:18And I think in the UK, I think people do support the idea of refugee status. The problem is people are misinformed. You look at all the YouGov polling at what people think is the number of refugees or is the number of immigrants and the actual numbers. There's a gulf. Some people in the UK think like this, you know, the 20 % of the population are Muslim or whatever it is. It's like much, you know, smaller proportions. And I think when I look at that polling that shows what public believe immigration levels are or numbers are versus what they are. I think that tells you everything about the role that misinformation has played in this debate.

49:46And when the media and politicians reduce everything, Emily, back to immigration, I think that becomes a problem. So, for example, the Henry Novak story that's been roiling the UK, that's become part of the immigration debate. You have J.D. Vance weighing in from the US. My understanding is, correct me if I'm wrong. It didn't become part of an immigration debate until J.D. Vance got all his facts magnificently wrong and tried to make it about immigration. by hard right folks in the UK. But of course, how many people in the UK know that the person who killed him was born in the UK and his father was born in the UK?

50:15So this is a problem where everything comes back to immigration. You suddenly say illegal immigration when it's a refugee. We've had the same debate in the US where, again, Trump said, oh, we're not after legal immigration. We're only after illegal immigration. Then they come into office and they've cut legal immigration. But Mehdi, do you think that there is, look, you know, undoubtedly the influence of J.D. Vance and Elon Musk and the rest of them is pernicious and extensive and corrosive and frankly dangerous when they start predicting civil war is about to break out in britain and kind of almost self-fulfilling yeah it becomes self-fulfilling but there is a sense in britain among ordinary british people that something has gone badly wrong even among liberal opinion when they see small boats arriving on the shores and thinking this is you know the these people are taking the piss out of our country and our system and that is something that needs to be addressed and whether and that's not just from you know the the far right agreed so so that is that is where a failure of politics has allowed something to develop which is now morphing into something much more corrosive so i agree with you but we have a labour government right which came in and now they have shabana mahmoud a brown woman who's very cracking down on migration and yet they brought the numbers down My understanding is immigration numbers have come down massively over the last year.

51:32And when you look at the polling, the public doesn't know or doesn't believe it. Actually, they do, because immigration has now, at least according to YouGov, immigration is no longer the primary concern of voters. But there is a poll that I saw that showed 50 % of Britain still think it's the same numbers it was a year ago. So there's a big chunk of people in terms of the numbers. And so, for example, that becomes an issue then, because then you say, well, it's actually the public just want action to be taken. Action is taken and the public either don't recognise it or don't believe it. So then it becomes a messaging problem.

52:01Then it does become about communication. And how much education is there of the public on this issue? How much are politicians willing to call out the lies and disinformation and take a strong position? This is so interesting because I think the nub of this really is, if you are a mainstream politician, if you are the Prime Minister, the leader, do you say you're wrong? Do you tell the British people, right, you're wrong, we are getting this... I can say I'm a pundit. It's harder for a politician. I agree. But you have to be Keir Starmer or whoever for a moment and say, I'm the leader. That's disinformation.

52:33Listen to me. Or you have to say, if this is what people are telling us they're worried about, we have to respond. Yeah, so I'm more in the first camp than the second, though I recognise the political pitfalls of that. You don't want to tell the voters they're wrong. Obviously, in those ways, that's just not the way you win elections. On the other hand, constantly conceding to your opponent's framing of an issue, constantly fighting battles on your opponent's terrain is not the way you go forward. If that was the way forward, then why are we still in this mess 20 years after Tony Blair was triangulating on this issue?

53:03These are not new issues. I mean, I'm old enough to remember New Labour was talking about all this stuff. Tony Blair was saying we're going to crack down on asylum seekers. vouchers for asylum seekers david blunkett talking about the swamping of schools i'm that old to remember 25 years ago what was going on in this country so it clearly didn't work and i think if you look across the west the center left's uh approach to this which is trying to meet the right halfway trying to do this well they have legitimate concerns let's not say they shouldn't do it that hasn't worked it's not that they shouldn't do it hasn't worked i think you have to start from a starting point with if it you know if it's not working so good how strong would you say kia starma should be on this then i think kia starma should take the opportunity to go on the offensive and say, if you're worried about small boats now and immigration now, have a look at what Belfast looks like right now.

53:43That's what the entire UK will look like when Nigel Farage is Prime Minister. Is that the country you want to live in? Is the United States under Trump with ICE militias grabbing and shooting American citizens on the street? Is that the future you want? That's the dystopian future heading your way under these cynical people. Mehdi Hassan, thank you very much indeed. Thanks, Mehdi.

54:14and you can hear more from Mehdi Hassan on News Agents USA where we're discussing the media landscape and the most extraordinary result from a primary in Maine in North East USA and what that tells us about American politics today otherwise we'll see you tomorrow bye-bye bye for now this has been a Global Player original production