The arrest of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor

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1:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

1:09From Global's newsroom at 11 o 'clock, the former prince Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor has been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. It follows revelations about his ties with the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor is under arrest on suspicion of misconduct in public office. ZTR Forte Live, welcome to Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, the brother of King Charles, has been caught, the warning of the law. Good morning, today is Friday, it's the 19th of February. And these are the most important news now. They're holding the ex-Principe Andrés. It's a news of the last hour.

1:48They investigate it for possible bad conduct during a public charge in connection with his relationship with the dead Jeffrey Epstein. The case of Epstein's case, which has fallen from the United Kingdom, is the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten, the king's brother. So we know that he is involved in this case.

2:24with the jaw-dropping news that Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, is under arrest and being held in a police cell awaiting questioning. In that understated way of police talk, all we have been told is that a 60-something-year-old man has been arrested in Norfolk. The entire country knows exactly who that is. Welcome to The News Agents.

2:58The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. And the news came through this morning that the police were at Sandringham. One imagined that it would be inquiries asking for some help with an investigation, not that he would be arrested, that someone would be saying to Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, you're under arrest anything you say may be taken down and used in evidence against you and then the process has followed any other arrest in this country except of course Andrew Mountbatten Windsor is not any other person and that is why this marks I would contest the biggest crisis for the royal family in a century I think I was the last person in the country to get to this piece of news because I was in the middle of a physiotherapy appointment for my back and I emerged just after 10.30 and my phone was exploding with people asking and suggesting and just a lot of comments on them.

4:02And I should say that what you're going to hear in today's episode will sound slightly more guarded because we are now under legal restrictions. In other words, the way that journalists are allowed to talk about what is going on has got a sort of circumference around it. So we will be much more careful with our language than you might previously have heard on other episodes, and that is why. It is a proper moment for our country for the reasons you've just explained. The last arrest of a royal was more than 300 years ago. It was Charles I, and that led to essentially the end of the monarchy. and the birth of Parliament and Oliver Cromwell.

4:45So I think it is important to step back and say this is a huge moment, actually, for us as a nation. And some people will be saying, well, I don't understand why, you know, this hadn't happened before. We had a lot of facts at our fingertips. Why wasn't there an arrest, you know, years ago? And one thing I think is really important to understand is that this arrest is for misconduct in public office. Andrew McBatton-Windsor has denied all wrongdoing. We have to say that over again. It is not to do with allegations of sexual abuse. It does not come specifically from survivor testimony statement.

5:32It does not come from FBI records. It comes from this latest tranche of emails which allegedly show contact of confidential government information between Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor when he was Prince Andrew and Geoffrey Epstein. He was appointed to the role of trade envoy. Now, it's an appointment that comes from the Queen, curiously, not from government. And yet he's still bound by confidential rules on what he can say about economics, trade, politics, all the rest of it. So it sounds as if Thames Valley police believe that there is enough material that they have seen to warrant an arrest. There has been no called in for questioning, as we might have expected, which also suggests they were looking perhaps for an element of surprise.

6:27There was no warning. This is Prince Andrew's, ex-Prince Andrew's birthday. You know, it's probably not the ring at the door he was expecting this morning. But this suggests that the police feel confident that they have enough to be suspicious of activities that he was conducting as trade envoy to the United Kingdom. Because when you are arrested, you are arrested on suspicion of. Yeah. They must have had a very detailed kind of examination because you don't casually just carry out an arrest. You can help with inquiries. But arrest is something legally completely different and under suspicion, as you say, of, you know, abuse of public office when he was in that role as trade envoy.

7:10it. I want to read now the statement from His Majesty the King issued by the palace because I think there is a lot to unpack in this and let me just read it to you. I have learnt with the deepest concern the news about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full fair and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner and by the appropriate authorities. In this as I have said before they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course. As this process continues, it would not be right for me to comment further on this matter.

7:52Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all, Charles R. Now, the first thing that struck me when I read this statement was, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. Is it anything to do with your family? He doesn't say my brother. The only mention of family is right at the end. The rest of the family. If you ever want to see evidence or the suggestion that someone has been totally cut adrift, that statement from the king, I've learned with the deepest concern about the news about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. I might learn the news about someone vaguely disconnected who I know nothing about.

8:35I heard something different in that. It's really interesting because I kept on going back to those words, the deepest concern. If I was opposite him now, I'd say, what is that concern? Who is that concern for? Are you concerned about your own brother's mental health at this point, which maybe that implies? Are you concerned that it has happened without his knowledge, right? I mean, the king did not know about this beforehand, but it doesn't sound as if that's what he means because he's saying he wants the full and fair force of the law. Are you concerned about other potential victims in this? I mean, I think it's a very curious phrase, that deepest concern, because I'm not sure I understand who that concern is for.

9:17But I think it is important, to your point exactly, that the king is talking as a monarch of the country about an arrest he was not pre-warned about. he's not speaking as if it was the guy that he basically cast adrift last october i agree with that up to a point what the palace have made clear is that the king was not told that the arrest was going to take place today i had heard earlier this week from people i'd spoken to that he was going to be arrested and i said this in the office and i said i just can't believe this Yeah, I can see. We just shut you up. I could just see I could see that, you know, he might be helping police with their inquiries.

10:01But arrested, that's something completely different. I think that people did know they may not have known the precise moment or time when the police would come and knock on the door of the, you know, the farm cottage on the Sandringham Estate. But I think that there was a general awareness within Buckingham Palace, within Downing Street, the Cabinet Office. And so many police forces are now involved in different aspects of investigating. But what we're seeing today, and I think this is worth underlining, is this is the start of a process. This isn't OK, that's it done. What happens now is presumably questions about did the palace know enough about these things?

10:43There are other questions that come up as a result of this arrest and the position of the palace. And, you know, if you read the Andrew Lowney book, it's very interesting in that it's a lot of the accusations and allegations are about Prince Andrew. but he went to try and find information out from government departments from the palace legitimate investigate inquiries and was shut down at every stage and so if there is going to be a criminal prosecution if and you know andrew has denied previously or any wrongdoing and he is innocent until proven guilty of course in our criminal justice system but if there are going to be questions asked you know were people not supporting him but they weren't exactly assisting people to find out what had happened and what andrew's role was as this trade envoy well let's try and get to the bottom of this with andy hughes crime agents andy hughes just talk us through andy because you've been looking at the whole process around this as well what's actually happened what are we talking about here yeah so it was this morning where we saw a convoy of five four by four vehicles approach Sandringham estate and I'm told eight detectives were involved including one arresting officer Andrew Mountbatten Windsor was arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office he was then taken away to a police station to be questioned and it was really the intention and the main purpose of today is a search they are looking for any mobile devices electronic devices they are also looking for hard copies.

12:20And really the process would be when the Epstein files were released earlier this month Thames Valley Police were the first force actually out to say that they are assessing these details. So what would have happened was a senior investigating officer would have had to have written to the CPS setting out a case against Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. If the CPS then decides that there is a case to answer they would then have to contact the Department of Justice in the US, which is where these files were released, because you can't just prosecute or arrest someone based on stuff that is posted online.

12:59What law enforcement, certainly in this country, need is the actual email server information. So they would have written to the DOJ and then it would be up to the DOJ whether to release those files or not. If those files are then passed back to the CPS and then the investigating force, all information would have been assessed. And then at that stage, that is when the senior investigating officer would have approached the CPS and said, we believe we have grounds for an arrest and that is what we have seen today. So let's just kind of put some initials there. The CPS is the Crown Prosecution Service.

13:38Yes. And the DOJ is the Department of Justice in the United States, which has obviously had all these files, the Epstein files that were part of protracted FBI investigations into Epstein, which has seen this slew of names emerge. How surprising is it that it was an arrest rather than just helping with inquiries? Because it's quite an important distinction, isn't it? It is. So the distinction is that you can either invite someone in to be interviewed under caution, which is actually, frankly, the way these things usually go with high profile people. We've seen it before in the past with politicians where instead of being arrested on their property, detectives have a search warrant.

14:22They go in, search the properties and then invite the suspect in to be interviewed under caution. Legally, the difference is if you're not arrested, you don't have to do that. You can leave that interview at any time. But if you are arrested, you are legally bound to be held for 24 hours. And it will be up to the senior investigating officer whether the suspects are then charged or released on bail. I have to say something like this. It is entirely normal for people to be brought in. Their preliminary interview to be done. and then they are then released on bail while all this evidence that they have gathered in their search is analysed.

15:03So just talk us through the offence because it's this very sort of old-fashioned sounding line, isn't it? Misconduct in public office. It sounds like you sort of get your knuckles wrapped for that but it's pretty serious, right? It's very serious. It carries up to a life sentence potentially but something like this, you're not going to get that if it in fact then gets to a judge and jury who would decide the fate. But misconduct in public office is actually one, it's notoriously, if you ask any detective, they say it is the hardest offence to prove because there's many little intricacies in the reading of the law in order for this to prove.

15:43And he would have had to know, presumably, that what he was passing on was highly confidential and it was a wrong thing to do. Yeah, absolutely right. That is the actual sticking point. So there are four boxes. I'll read them out now. A public officer acting as such. Well, we know that is the case because he was trade envoy at that time. So as trade envoy, normally someone would have to sign the Official Secrecy Act. Now, whether this happened with Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, we don't know. But all this requires for this to be proved is a letter from the government to confirm that he was indeed a trade envoy.

16:19Now, this is where it gets tricky for law enforcement. Willfully neglects to perform their duty and or willfully misconducts themselves. It's that phrase willfully. How can you prove someone willfully did it and that it wasn't an accident? So that's why this offence is extremely hard to prove. And then it goes on to such a degree as to amount an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder. again how do you then prove that the public's trust has been proved as well and without reasonable excuse or justification so if a suspect has reasonable excuse or justification that is used as an offence and if that isn't proved in the court of law then so if you were to say something like i thought this was going to result in great business deals for the british taxpayer yeah it could be i thought by sharing information with people who had investment to make in Britain, it would be helpful.

17:17Yeah, we don't know what the defence is, but that seems to be the flavour of it so far. So, this is where we are now. He's under arrest. Presumably released on bail. Where is he? Well, right now he's in a police station, either in a police cell or in a police interview room. There will be either one or two interviews today. And it is up to the police what information they reveal they have. Quite often in cases like this detectives don't like to show their hand, especially when there's further analysis to be done. It could be quite possible that Andrew Mountbatten-Winds is led into the police interview it will be confirmed what he's been arrested for, he will be asked if he has any comments to make and then that could be the end of the interview and he would be released on bail So would that be closer to Sandringham where he was arrested or closer to Thames Valley where the police force was from?

18:12It will be. It will be. You just have to read between the lines of all the different statements coming up from all the different police forces. Norfolk Police are supporting, which suggests that these interviews are happening at a nearby police station. I'm told one about 15 minutes away. And the other thing that, Andy, I think it would be useful just to spell out is that Thames Valley isn't the only police force involved in various different aspects of an investigation that, you know, has Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor at the centre of. Yeah, I mean, there's eight involved now. Eight different police forces.

18:48This is, to my knowledge, this is the most amount of police forces ever investigating one individual for a series of different crimes. This is hugely complex. And really the interesting thing is, is that when I found out this morning and I started ringing my contacts in the mat, if they knew about this, they were all completely stunned. They had no idea this was coming. They had no idea. Now, listen, you would expect senior officers from all these different forces to be in communication, but this information is certainly not filtering down. And that's not a surprise. And also interesting, and you touched on it before, is that the King and Buckingham Palace weren't told.

19:24Now, this is hardly a surprise because a detective could be accused of corruption, for example, if you're tipping off the family of a suspect. Now, obviously, these are very unusual circumstances. But just say the king was informed and then this team of detectives showed up this morning and the suspect isn't there. That puts everyone in a very, very difficult spot, does it not? So on one level, this is just another ordinary arrest of an individual. And on another level, totally bloody, without precedent, extraordinary, unbelievable. Yeah, it's monumental. This has never happened before. Andy, if people are listening to this and they're thinking, how on earth did we spend the last sort of six years, 10 years talking about these allegations of sexual abuse of survivors, of Epstein's victims, of all the rest of it?

20:21And now we've got an arrest that's completely unrelated to any of that. It looks like it's just about the exchange of emails as a trade envoy. It is. So does that then mean that the sexual offences stuff will not be pursued in the same way or can they be pursued concurrently or? Yeah. Do you see what I'm getting at? There'll be people saying, well, hang on a sec. I thought it was that. Now suddenly it's that. Exactly. But no, all these things will still be happening. So it's perfectly normal, for example, for two different detective units in the same force to be investigating different offences.

20:55So this senior team of detectives at Thames Valley Police, they're only focusing on misconduct in public office. Then you have other forces looking into different allegations. Essex, for example, looking into trafficking. With the flight logs. With the flight logs. And then obviously Gordon Brown this morning has also interestingly come out and said that he is supplying these police forces with allegations against sexual offences. you mentioned that Andy and we'll let you go in a moment but I just kind of could read the statement from Gordon Brown he says I've submitted a five-page memorandum to the Metropolitan Surrey Sussex Thames Valley and other relevant UK police constableries this memorandum provides new and additional information to that which I submitted last week to the Met Essex and Thames Valley police forces where I express my concern that we secure justice for trafficked girls and women so this is a hydra-headed kind of thing this isn't just one investigation this goes on andy thank you so much for kind of guiding us through all of this of course andrew mountbatten windsor has denied any wrongdoing in relation to a lot of these allegations and you know it needs stating again that anyone is innocent until proven guilty we'll be back after the break

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23:24The News Agents. That was Andy Hughes and Andy is doing a special episode of The Crime Agents which will drop late this evening. Look, the word crisis is bandied around often too kind of widely I think at times. but I think that this is undoubtedly the biggest crisis for the royal family since the abdication crisis I mean what happened over the death of Diana seems to me utterly small beer compared to this that was a question of PR whether the royal family should have come back from Balmoral earlier and kind of lent into the mood of the nation in this collective outpouring of grief this is something new as you said Emily at the start no not since Charles I not since the Glorious Revolution have we seen a member of the royal family being arrested and where this leaves the relationship which is something we sort of talked about yesterday on the podcast of royal family and the British public because the royal family exists with the consent of the British public and if the British public sense that something has gone wrong in the royal family and an arrest today of a prominent member of the royal family is a pretty serious event then all these questions have sudden new relevance.

24:47Look in one way what has come to pass today I think was something that the king must have anticipated could be possible over six months ago. I would not say I have insider knowledge on this, but my very strong hunch is that when the king removed his brother's title, when he asked him to leave that royal residence at Windsor Royal Lodge, he was essentially allowing the law to take its course. It was, if you like, a subtle indication to, whether it was the Thames Valley Police, the Met Police, whether it was investigators, whether it was the CPS, that they should not feel somehow inhibited or restricted from going about their job in the way they had to go about their job.

25:39In other words, it was the monarch saying, my hands are off this. You do what you need to. If you need to investigate, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, no longer Prince Andrew. If you need to arrest, if you need to search his homes, you get on and do that. And I'm sure that the king had no prior knowledge of what would unfold in specific emails or in the Epstein files. I'm sure he had no prior knowledge that this would happen this morning round about 10 o 'clock but I think he did have a sense that the further away Andrew was from him from the centre of the royal family the more justice would be allowed to happen yeah I think that's absolutely right but you know there will be those who will say and just picture this for a moment Andrew Mountbatten Windsor is still the eighth in line to the throne.

26:32Currently he is sitting in a police prison cell awaiting questioning. How is it possible that he is still the eighth in line to the throne even though he was stripped of the titles and should the king have gone further and faster and done all those other things that could have been done. And the history of the royal family has been over the last sort of 150 years that it does respond to crises. It does change. The royal family has adapted, sometimes very unwillingly, sometimes grudgingly, but it knows that it can't remain fossilised as it was, you know, when Queen Victoria was on the throne of this remote, aloof family that, you know, we all, we were subject to the royal family.

27:20That's gone. But if you've got a situation where the eighth in line to the throne could be facing criminal charges, then I think it calls into question what we think of our royal family. And I think that this is, you know, as I say, I think a process has been started now. And I think attitudes towards the royal family are undoubtedly changing. They changed with the death of Andrew Mountbatten-Minser's mother, the Queen, as was, who reigned over this country for 60 plus years. and I think that that is changing people's attitudes. Yeah, I mean, look, I have no doubt that even in this country, our population will be divided probably by generation with those saying, thank God that the police are doing this, thank God there is an investigation.

28:09I mean, obviously he's denied all wrongdoing and there has been no charge, no conviction. But I think there will be people who genuinely feel that this is a first step towards acknowledging that no one, No one is above the law. Not a royal, not a prince, not an ex-prince, not somebody who knew billionaires, not somebody who was dealing with the rich and powerful all their life, that this is sending a really important signal to all of us that no one is above the law. And the second bit will be, to your point, the kind of collateral implication of what we have tolerated. I mean, the late Queen's record was unblemished.

28:50There was so many people willing to say, you know, what an extraordinary life she'd lived and how extraordinarily she'd guided the country. And yet the last few years saw her making this payout. We don't know the exact sum. Again, more questions of transparency, lack of transparency, but somewhere to the tune of between seven and 12 million pounds. How does that look now? How does that look when your head of state is paying victims of alleged sexual abuse? So when the news broke, my daughter, Anna, sent me a message or sent a message on the family WhatsApp group saying who paid off? Was it our taxpayer money that paid off Virginia Dufresne?

29:39And I think it's such an interesting question because the answer is, well, it depends how you see the money that the royal family have. is it our money or is it theirs and if you take the view that it's our money then you are starting to question why we have a royal family if you say it's their money you're fine the royal family are safe i do think that the fact that she was paid off potentially 10 million pounds from the queen's private purse it is our money the royal family is there because we want them to be there and i think that these questions, once you start unpicking one thread, the whole thing can come undone very quickly.

30:19I think we're at a tipping point. And I think the King must recognise that, which is why he tried to preempt this action six months ago, arguably, you know, not early enough, not quickly enough. But I think the tipping point kind of comes back to us, which is we have to now establish As a country, whether we believe enough in the cultural institution of the monarchy, this thousand year old force in our life, do we believe in that enough to say, get rid of those who are accused of wrongdoing or suspect of wrongdoing. The rest of you are fine. Or whether we're going to say, let's look at those concentric circles.