The bombshell interview that's rattled MAGA

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. I've seen so many people who will say one thing to the president's face, Democrats and Republicans, and then will do the exact opposite behind the scenes. You know why I really, you know what they are. And you know why I really love Susie Wiles? Because Susie is who she is in the president's presence. She's the same exact person when the president isn't around. I've never seen Susie Wiles say something to the president and then go and counteract him or subvert his will behind the scenes. And that's what you wanted a staffer, because as much as I love Susie, the American people didn't elect any staffer.

0:43They elected the president of the United States. That is Vice President J.D. Vance talking about the White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles after a bombshell interview in which she says things about the president and his inner circle that no one expected her to say out loud.

1:03Susie Wiles:Chiefs of staff give interviews after they've left office, not while they're still in it. And the question is, how damaging is this to Donald Trump? Because what she reveals is what the White House is really like. Welcome to The News Agents.

1:25Susie Wiles:The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And Susie Wells is a character and she is powerful and she's discreet. She is behind the scenes until now, except over the past year, she has been giving a whole series of on the record interviews to Vanity Fair, kind of chronicling what is happening in the White House, what is going right, what is going wrong. And bang, this has exploded this week with the publication of part one of the Susie Wiles interview. And the whole reason that she has managed to retain Donald Trump's trust, support and everything else. And when other chiefs of staff from his first term went very, very quickly indeed, is because she was thought to be so discreet.

2:19Susie Wiles:And she has said things about Donald Trump having an alcoholic personality and disobliging things about J.D. Vance in being a conspiracy theorist and talking about some of the policies that have gone wrong. She's really put her head above the parapet. I think it's also just worth saying why this is so important in the sense of how it could destabilise things, as you know better than anyone, John. I mean, in Trump's first term, Trump basically burned through chiefs of staff. Yeah. You know, a long list of them because they were unable to either contain the personality of Trump or indeed the court of Trump.

2:53And they were usually subsumed by it. Wiles has been very unusual because not only has she been central to the president's reelection campaign, sticking with him when he was a bit of a sort of pariah figure after January the 6th. But by common consent within Washington, she has been able to inject order, at least more order than there was before in the second Trump White House by containing lots of those personalities. She is this kind of quite ghostly figure. And she is someone who, you know, she's from a Republican family. She's steeped in the Republican Party and so has been sort of ruling with this kind of rodded rod of iron internally within the White House.

3:28and therefore has shocked Washington by giving this interview where she is completely direct about the whole cast of characters, not just Trump himself, but all of the sort of senior cadre of the Trump administration. Yeah, I mean, from what I understand, this interview, series of interviews, which was with Chris Whipple, started off with him saying, I'm going to be writing a book. You know, he is well known and well respected for his tomes. He has written the definitive history on modern White House chiefs of staff. He did the same for the Biden administration. And so I think what happened was the series of interviews started over the course, as you say, of 11 months.

4:06And in some of them, she's speaking incredibly candidly. This one where she's actually doing the washing at the same time. You know, it's over the phone, but she sort of comes and goes and sort of puts on a bundle of washing. I say this to try and give you a sense of how relaxed she clearly feels about the way she's talking to him. He's a well-respected, pretty neutral journalist, this guy, Chris Whipple. and at some stage in those recordings he turns around and says actually Vanity Fair is really keen can we turn this into a piece so he's very upfront about the fact it's going to be a piece as well as a book and it sounds as if certainly from his account that the White House was happy with that it wasn't a secret that Susie Wiles certainly knew that Donald Trump had sort of welcomed it and indeed they all sit for this really rather odd very austere kind of boardroom photo where they are unsmiling, serious-looking people at the heart of power.

5:00And I think it was, you know, to sort of take the title at face value, it was a sort of vanity project. It was a way of saying this is what's going on at the heart of Washington. But what's interesting is that somebody like Wiles, who is always so cautious, you know, she's the person who greets Donald Trump when he gets off stage at a Pennsylvania rally that's been long and rambling and lost its focus and just stares at him. She's the person who says, why didn't you mention the economy? Why didn't you talk about affordability? She's really good. You know, he actually calls her Susie Trump. You know, that's that's the highest compliment you could possibly have is to say he thinks she is the most important person in the world and she is unafraid of him.

5:41And the question is, did she lose her guard with this journalist that she trusted? Or was she doing something where she thought, you know what, I'm going to be frank about this because I'm also giving messages to the administration themselves. You know, when she when she describes Vance as a conspiracy theorist, a 10 year long conspiracy theorist, I don't think she thinks that's a criticism. When she talks about Elon Musk's ketamine habit, she says, well, he told me that himself. You know, he's admitted this. And so she doesn't think of what she's doing as being particularly revelatory. Maybe that's the most interesting thing of all.

6:17And if you sort of listen to clips of this, and Chris Whipple has got the whole thing on tape. He's recorded every single interview. Vanity Fair has said they're not releasing the whole thing, but there are little bits of clips. But the thing it sort of started reminding us in the office of was that scene from Succession, where the young Greg, the nephew of Logan Roy, goes and meets a journalist in a cafe, doesn't realise that he's on record when he thinks they're just having a pre-meeting meeting and he says all this stuff. I don't think it's too self-aggrandising to hope I might have some wisdom to impart.

6:51There's no time like the present, right? But it would need to be discreet. I don't want to make my uncle mad because he could be... Well, he can be scary, vindictive, paranoid and violent. Scary, vindictive. Wait, sorry. Sorry, none of this. I'm not actually saying that yet. Oh, would you like this meeting to be on background? But this isn't... You can't say I said anything. But you did. Look, Greg, if you want this to be anonymous, you have to say that from the outside. You can't do that. I mean, this is Greg learning in real time the rules of journalism. Susie Wiles isn't stupid. I mean, she's phenomenally smart.

7:35at the media stuff. That's what I suppose makes this so curious that we're all slightly unwilling to believe that she's made a mistake on this. What is curious about, or like what is pure succession is, is the bit of the Vanity Fair interview where apparently J.D. Vance says to the photographer, I'll give you$100 for every person you make look really shitty compared to me and$1 ,000 if it's Marco, as in Marco Rubio, the secretary of state.

7:59Susie Wiles:I mean, that is perfect. That's absolutely perfect. All right, fair play, J.D. Yeah, the thing is though, that she doesn't just confine herself. I think she's just a very straight-talking woman. And I suppose it's not surprising when you're that straight-talking that you've said some quite incendiary things. What's surprising is that she did it and conducted 11 interviews. And I think that what she's doing, particularly with Whipple as the interviewer, she's trying to secure her place in history, her legacy of what I did as chief of staff. And Lewis, you talked a moment ago about some of the others that went before from the Trump first term.

8:37Susie Wiles:I remember vividly Trump coming back into Joint Base Andrews, the Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, when Reince Priebus had just been sacked. The plane lands, it is hammering with rain, and everyone's kind of rushing down the steps of Air Force One to go to their cars. Reince Priebus is by himself, and all the cars go off in a motorcade in one direction, and Reince Priebus gets into a car by himself and goes off in another direction. And the brutality of what went on in Trump's first term, these sackings that would take place midair, and you'd only discover when you land that you're out, is so different from this time round, where nobody really has been sacked.

9:18Susie Wiles:That first national security adviser got sacked because of the small, houthy group chat that led to so much trouble. But Susie Wiles has been the glue that has kept this operation together this time round. And it's not just she made some kind of caustic and kind of wry remarks about some of the key characters. She's also critical on policy as well, about the way policy has been handled. And that, I think, is more uncomfortable for Trump, because Trump likes to think that everything is an absolute stonking success. and the cuts to USAID, the way the tariffs programme was unrolled. Well, she says that she was initially aghast about what Musk did at USAID.

10:02Susie Wiles:Yeah. Which is a serious thing. And indeed on tariffs, has basically said that, basically revealing that there's been a bigger split within Trump's team over trade and tariffs and said that it's been more painful than I expected. I mean, that is quite something from the chief of staff to say about what is the president's signature economic policy, particularly at a time when the president himself is having plummeting ratings because of his handling on the economy and particularly cost of living, right? So for the chief of staff, and let's not forget, as unbelievably as it might seem, we are now just on the cusp of heading into yet another election year in the United States because it will be the midterms in November and stuff like this isn't forgotten.

10:37I mean, some of the other stuff, you're absolutely right, really goes to uncomfortable places when she admits quite freely that she told Trump to stop his vindictive prosecutions. She sort of says, oh, you know, I thought we'd be able to keep those to sort of 90 days. But actually, he carried on doing it. She compares Trump, who's famously teetotal, to having an alcoholic personality. I mean, she says it in the context of her own father. In other words, somebody who can presumably be pretty irascible and sort of flip flop in the way he makes decisions. Something I can't imagine he'd love, by the way, the alcoholic comparison, given his brother died of alcoholism.

11:11What's interesting about all this is the response, because people have been pretty so far. I mean, the pushback from Caroline Levitt, you know, you'd expect. This is unfortunately another example of disingenuous reporting, where you have a reporter who took the chief of staff's words wildly out of context, did not include the context those conversations were had within. And then she's the sort of automaton at the front of the queue doing the pushback. She basically says it was all taken out of context and never speak the mainstream media. I don't think that's come from Trump particularly. I think Trump has sort of taken this on board and said, actually, yeah, I do think I have a bit of an alcoholic personality.

11:48He's joked about that before. Yeah, because he doesn't drink. So it's clearly not meant to be in any sense a slur on his kind of habits. But I mean, there are two things going on here, I suppose. One is that she is getting ready to leave. You know, she may just be getting ready to leave and figures this is an extraordinary way of doing an interview from within rather than an exit interview. the other way is saying well actually I do want to have some influence and Trump believes things he reads in the press more than when he's sitting opposite me and my words aren't going anywhere I mean famously he would watch Fox News and call in that was how his his staff would talk to him they'd kind of give him messages on the television because they knew that was the best way of getting his attention it's not impossible that's sort of going on here I think Trump will have disapproved

12:33Susie Wiles:of this interview. You know, to take another example on the policy front, and Liz, you went through, you know, two or three of those. When she says, I caution Trump against the release of all the January the 6th prisoners, particularly the violent ones, and Trump went ahead anyway. These are controversies where, you know, she's putting herself at odds publicly with the president over policy decisions that he has made while she is still the chief of staff in the White House. He's going on record and saying, that isn't me. I mean, who knows? Maybe it's to avoid prosecution after the terms ended.

13:09Or something that we've been talking about, slightly to our surprise for the last few months, which is that, you know, political time for the Trump administration appears to be expending and passing very, very quickly. You know, one of the reasons that his grip on the Republican Party is already so much looser than where we thought it might be six months ago is that already the conversation feels like it is moving on and it is moving on into who and what succeeds him, what the Republican Party and Magaism looks like post him, a conversation which will become even more intense after November. And so part of you almost also wonders about where the wiles is.

13:41Maybe this is reading too much into it. Maybe it's more unwitting than this. But, you know, someone who is as calculated as she is, she will be someone also in demand for the next campaign. She was someone absolutely instrumental to the previous campaign. She's also someone who potentially dislikes Vance and may have her eye on another candidate. I mean, I actually thought one of the most revealing parts of the interview is when she's talking about Jeffrey Epstein and basically saying that she felt that the issue had been important to Vance because he had been a conspiracy theorist for a decade and took a dig at Vance's transformation from Trump critic to prominent cheerleader, saying it's clearly a calculated move.

14:15You know, this is all like wounding stuff for Vance, who, of course, is the heir apparent. And I think particularly given that the Epstein issue has been so central to kind of the sheen coming off Trump, I think her talking about it and basically pointing to Vance and partly accusing him of being responsible for that. I think it's fascinating. I think what she says about Bondi, I mean, that is the most virulent criticism of all, where she says Pam Bondi, who's the attorney general, just came forward with these empty files. In other words, she had told Trump to get ahead of the Epstein stuff. He didn't.

14:44And then Bondi comes out and reveals nothing. It almost feels like a post-mortem before the patient's dead.

14:50Susie Wiles:So Lewis, you kind of drew attention to the joke of J.D. Vance when the photographs were being taken of, you know, I'll give you$100 to make everyone look shitty, except for Marco. If you make him look shitty, I'll give you$1 ,000. Look, the jockeying for position for 2028 is already underway. And you've got, you know, the J.D. Vance camp. You've got the Marco Rubio camp. You've got Ted Cruz setting out a bit of a stall. There are others as well. Marco Rubio feels like the more favoured son right now than Vance in terms of the Trump circle and who he trusts. Rubio crazily is closer to the centre, I think, than Vance.

15:30Susie Wiles:So will Trump feel that he can have that total trust in Susie Wiles now or Susie Trump, as he said that he called her? when she has given an on-the-record interview to a magazine that is not overly... A magazine. A magazine that is not overly friendly towards the Trump administration. And an awful lot of people in Magaland saying, what the hell has she done? Why did she do it? What possibly was her thinking? You know, we're used in politics to having a whodunit. We've now got a why she done it. Why has she done what she has done? And is she too indispensable to Trump for him to even be able to criticise her?

16:13It feels to me that her days are probably numbered because everything we know about Trump up to now is that as soon as you step out of line, at some point, that just means that your currency within the Trump circle becomes more limited. I think he needs her. But he never thinks he needs anyone, does he?

16:29Susie Wiles:No, this is also true. But I think this is what's different about Susie Wiles. this is why i think that you've seen so little turbulence in this administration in the makeup of this administration compared to the first time around when people were going you know it was a revolving door with people leaving with knives in their back and it hasn't been like this although although part of that is not just about wiles right part of that is that for the first six months maybe eight months trump was completely hegemonic politically and basically had no opposition and the big change in the last four months is that it's no longer true even within the Republican Party and the economic situation isn't getting any better.

17:05So it feels to me as if 2026 is going to be a bumpy year for Trump, full stop. Who knows what he's going to do Venezuela tonight, but it's going to be a bumpy year in terms of his hold on domestic politics. And if he's looking for a fall guy at some point, then Susie Wiles has just nominated herself.

17:18Susie Wiles:And in a moment, say it quietly, are the Tories having a revival?

17:31journalist at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff. Discover how today's story affects your life. Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app. LBC leading Britain's conversation.

17:55The News Agents. Mr Speaker it is the Prime Minister's second Christmas in Downing Street. And by his own admission, he's not in control. He says nothing happens when he pulls the levers. Does he blame himself or the levers? It's not the world's funniest gag, is it? No, but it is the House of Commons. And are we anyone to judge? We've got a really good gag for you from the House of Commons. Yeah, it said no one ever. No, that's coming right at the end. Actually, that was one. Look, that's Kemi Badenock. Finishing off her year at Prime Minister's Questions with the latest in a string of actually jokes notwithstanding pretty creditable performances against Keir Starmer.

18:36That is partly because Starmer's performances have been pretty bad. But nonetheless, she has been showing her own MPs believe and also across Westminster's consensus that she's been showing more and more confidence both at Prime Minister's questions but generally politically. And indeed, there is some evidence to suggest that that is about more than just what she's doing at 12 o 'clock on a Wednesday in the Commons Chamber. She's had a pretty successful December. there's now 26 % of people polled according to YouGov now hold a favourable opinion of her. That is up five points since November. That is the highest recording from YouGov yet.

19:08Admittedly, she still remains, like all politicians, pretty unpopular. But it's also true to say that the Conservatives, they've stabilised their overall position in the polling. The Politico poll of polls now showing the Tories averaging above Labour by a point. And it has led some to wonder, after what was a pretty good conference speech, which was build, make or break for her, whether or not Baden-Ock has at the very least stopped the rot for the Conservative Party and whether one of the themes of 2026 might be an unexpected comeback for the Tories. Yeah, I mean, I know sort of disillusioned Tory voters who were really low after 2024, who've in the last few months just got more of a swagger in their steps, you know, just walk a bit taller saying, actually, I can see how she gets there.

19:56I can see how she does it. She gets the party back on track. And if you take the party as a whole for the last three months, they have had some scalps, you know, going back to September, they removed the deputy PM, Angela Rayner. That was their work with the Telegraph, the whole stuff about Angela Rayner's houses and taxes, tax bills. Peter Mandelson, I think, you know, they worked hard to sort of uncover the order in which Keir Starmer knew what he knew about Peter Mandelson's relationship with Epstein. Mandelson's gone. They tried very hard to do that to Reeves. And I think the criticism when she started was that Kemi Baden-Ott was too abrasive.

20:37She rubbed people up the wrong way. She sort of went for things and she was a bit too bristly. and oddly having Rachel Reeves in position of the Chancellor I think has been helpful for Kemi Badenock because Rachel Reeves has done a lot playing the sort of the feminist card and the misogyny card oh everyone hates me because I'm a woman and Kemi Badenock sort of took her on during the budget and went no actually they don't and I think you know there are a lot of women who actually were quite wound up by this idea that people didn't like Rachel Reeves because she was a woman rather than actually we're criticising, you know, or anyone is criticising your policies, not who you are.

21:16And Kemi said that out loud. And I think that definitely got her a few nods of like, yeah, thank you. Somebody had to do that. And I'm glad it was you because it couldn't be a man.

21:26Susie Wiles:I think the big change that has happened is the Conservatives now have an argument to make, which is that a year ago, 18 months ago, Labour just won a big election and the Tories were being outflanked on the right and there was a relatively centrist Labour Party, the Tories have been rejected. What was their argument to the people? What was it that they could say to the British people that marked them out on distinctive territory? Now that you've got reform being very welfarist and saying, well, we've got to keep certain allowances and we've got to do this. So quite left wing on a lot of social policy because frankly, that's where their voters are.

22:08Susie Wiles:And you've got Labour being high tax. You've got the original opening for the Tory party to be almost Thatcherite in saying we believe in a smaller state. We want people not to have to pay stamp duty on their houses because that's a terrible tax. And suddenly the old arguments come back to the fore with a sharper focus on the Tories best able to make them. Lower taxes, lower public spending. And that will be their offering. ring and I think Kemi Badenot is incredibly well placed to be making that argument for the Conservatives because after the July 2024 election it seemed like they didn't have a tune to sing and they've got one now that's right I think the space has opened up it was actually impossible to see where the space was even six months ago and now the there is space there and I think it has suited them that the conversation particularly since the conference season has largely as distinct from the summer, which were all about potential riots and so on, the conversation has largely been economic rather than on immigration and social policy, which is something that favours reform and does not favour the Tories.