The hostages are home. Is this a lasting peace?

0:01This is a Global Player Original Podcast. It is now my distinct honour to invite the President of the United States of America, His Excellency Donald J. Trump, to address the Knesset. That is Donald Trump today in the Israeli Parliament. If they could have carried him aloft, they would have done. If they could have thrown rose petals before him, they would have done. As it was, they just chanted, Trump, Trump, Trump. The President spoke of a profound joy and a soaring hope, and today marks a milestone. It is an extraordinary moment in the calendar of Middle East peace, but it is only the first day.

0:52Has the victory lap begun a little bit too early? Welcome to the News Agents.

1:01The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. And it's hard not to be touched profoundly online when you see families being reunited after two years where they have been taken hostage. And, of course, celebrations in Gaza, too, that maybe at last the guns have fallen silent. It does feel that this is a big day in Middle East politics. A day that has been a bloody long time coming and a bloody war that has just been so destructive on all sides. But as you say, Emily, there's still a very, very long way to go before people can start talking about a durable, lasting peace. Everyone will have their own moment of today, I think.

1:51and mine was the hug between Yosef Chaim Ohana, the father of the hostage, who hugs his son who he hasn't seen for two years. It is a sort of, you know, it is the bear hug to end all bear hugs. You cannot imagine what that feels like. There is something so tactile about the moment when a father embraces his son with the spirit of a man who actually never wants to let go again. And I think this is going to be a real, incredibly visceral and tangible moment for not just the hostages, not just their families, but for many of those in Israel who, for whom kind of time stopped, life stopped on October the 7th, two years ago, who have frankly been holding their breath for this moment.

2:41and already this morning all 20 living hostages are now back. They have been released. They are back with family. Some have gone straight to the hospital. They will be, I think, treated very, very cautiously over the next few hours and days because there is so much trauma still in their frail bodies and that is something that the families are coming to terms with. But I think it's also important to remember that there were 251 hostages, 75 of those died in captivity. And there will be many families for whom today is about those who didn't come home. And there will be many families thinking today is a celebration that arguably could have or should have come much, much earlier.

3:35If you'd asked me on October the 7th whether I thought two years on we would only just be talking about the release of hostages and it would be in the context of 65 ,000 dead civilians in Gaza, I think we both would have been utterly horrified at the turn of events that the Netanyahu government has sort of permitted and Hamas has permitted over the course of these two years. Yeah, there needs to be at some point a reckoning, not just of missed opportunities, but of opportunities that were there that the leaders chose just to squander, to kind of prosecute the war. There have been other times when a few hostages have been released, but not all of them.

4:28And then you think, well, is this the start of something? It doesn't start. The war continues. use so i think that all of that is to come and i think it would be just i don't know kind of not you know look today is a day of joy for those families undeniably and i've seen you know and the bear hug that you talked about that visceral bear hug i think that i mean communities around the world jewish communities around the world those bear hugs are taking place of people on whatsapp groups and wherever else are people thinking you know thank god this is a day where you know those yellow and hug your children wherever you are exactly exactly but you know is it a day of pure joy or is this the start of something else donald trump obviously wanted before the knesset today to make this into his victory lap and after so many years of unceasing war and endless danger today the skies are calm the guns are silent the sirens are still and the sun rises on a holy land that is finally at peace, a land and a region that will live, God willing, in peace for all eternity.

5:39I think that phrase, God willing, is doing a lot of heavy lifting. For all eternity is a long time. For all eternity is a long time. We are on day one. Trump is in the Knesset, the Israeli parliament. He started speaking just after midday. As we record, it's quarter past one. I mean, when we came to the studio, he was still going strong. And, you know, he's been on his feet and speaking for an hour and a quarter. There has been a lot of praise for his team, a lot of praise, particularly for Steve Wyckoff, his real estate negotiator. There's been praise for Hegseth. There's been praise for Rubio.

6:18There's been huge amounts of praise for Netanyahu. who there was the interruption, and maybe we can play you this, of one member of the Israeli parliament, a left-winger who basically came in, tried to disturb it, and called it a genocide during Trump's speech.

6:54And there's a bit of, you know, as you can imagine, shaky camera movement. And he's bundled out very efficiently by the security services. And then Trump just kind of reclaims the conversation and the stage exactly where he left off with these words. That was very efficient. just like that i guess he's back on his theme which is frankly mission accomplished it has a bit of mission accomplished banner behind it we've done it and i don't think anyone can subtract from what has happened today it is the most incredible start it has been the most incredible 72 hours. But there will be people saying, for Christ's sake, do not do the we've done it yet.

7:44There is a long, long way to go. There is a lot of building to go. And there are a lot of missteps that it is possible to make between now and whatever we need to get to for something that feels like enduring everlasting peace. Emily, you talked about all the people that he singled out for praise. After October the 7th, would you have given anything for Netanyahu's survival as the Israeli Prime Minister? He had presided over a situation where the security at the southern border was stripped out and sent to the West Bank because of settler violence. He completely ignored Hamas, had done this deal with the devil over what was going to happen.

8:28And it quite suited his purposes that Hamas should be a kind of a counterpoint to the Palestinian authority in Netanyahu's determination not to allow a two state solution. His premiership looked like it was over. A corruption trial was unfolding. You'd have thought the only place that Netanyahu was going to end up would be prison. And yet today, Donald Trump just lavishes praise. And you think, oh, my God, Netanyahu is going to rise one more time. Just listen to Trump on Netanyahu. I want to express my gratitude to a man of exceptional courage and patriotism whose partnership did so much to make this momentous day possible.

9:11You know who I'm talking about. There's only one Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. I mean, that summer before October the 7th, Israel was on its feet. much of Tel Aviv, much of Jerusalem, people were on their feet marching in protest against the changes that Netanyahu and his government were making the judicial system, government overreach, very similar practices that we've seen in Turkey, very similar practices to those that we're now seeing in America. There was a lot of distaste domestically, anger over Netanyahu's changes to the democratic norms, the institutions in Israel, frankly. And after October the 7th, there were some who said, actually, this is partly, I mean, this is an atrocity committed by Hamas, clearly, but this was because Netanyahu had taken his eye off the ball.

10:06He had left open gaps in his security because he hadn't been concentrating on terror. He hadn't been concentrating on extremism. He'd been concentrating on problems at home, his own domestic problems and legacy. And you're right. You fast forward two years and five days and you've got the president of the United States praising him as the man who has done the, his words, the hard yards, got everyone through this period of terror to a place where they are now talking about peace. And there are many, many in Israel who do not believe that you can put the mantle of peace on Netanyahu for what has happened over the last two years far from it.

10:50Well let's hear Netanyahu on this very subject. No American president has ever done more for Israel and as I said in Washington it ain't even close. It's really not a match. Mr. President today we welcome you here to thank you for your pivotal leadership in putting forward a proposal that got the backing of almost the entire world. A proposal that brings all our hostages home.

11:29A proposal that ends the war by achieving all our objectives.

11:37a proposal that opens the door to an historic expansion of peace in our region and beyond our region. Mr. President, you are committed to this peace. I am committed to this peace. And together, Mr. President, we will achieve this peace. So Netanyahu there, talking, celebrating the peace that is coming, to the Middle East. What is that peace? Is it a one-state solution or a two-state solution? We know that Netanyahu is fundamentally opposed to a two-state solution. So what does this thing look like? What happens to the Palestinians living in Gaza on the West Bank? So, you know, when people say, oh my God, this is a day for eternal peace in the Middle East, hang on, there's still some pretty big fundamental questions about what happens about Palestinian autonomy.

12:33A hundred percent. And Netanyahu just two weeks ago, three weeks ago, was at the UN General Assembly, right, Ungar, where people left during his speech because they saw a man in front of them who did not want to recognise Palestine, who accused countries that did recognise Palestine of anti-Semitism and who was fundamentally not committed to a two-state solution, not on his terms. And so there has been this volt fast of the Netanyahu who stands before us today saying, I believe in peace. I think you're right. We have to interrogate exactly what that means.

13:10News you can trust and the conversations that matter. With award-winning journalists at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff. Discover how today's story affects your life. Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

13:39The News Agents. Last Thursday, we were talking about the outline for this deal and the 20-point plan. And in the middle of the night, I suddenly had this sort of spidey sense. It was like a bat signal went up and I suddenly went, I've just realised something that was staring us in the face while we were talking. And the person who would talk in ideas of 20 point plans is not, frankly, Donald Trump to kind of kick people into action. You know, nothing will take that away. But if there's one person that you associate more than anyone else with a peace plan, and that means detail and that means an arc and that means a sense of where it ends up, not just where it starts.

14:32it sounded to me like Tony Blair. And we had this chat over the weekend and I was like, I think we should just put out the feelers a bit and see if that feels right. Now, some of my sources in the Israeli administration, government administration, have pointed me to Dorma, who is part of the Netanyahu government who's in charge of the hostage release. but they did not deny that Blair had a very very pivotal plan I mean I would go so far as saying broadly architect of this plan so I spent some of the weekend with someone heart of government who was also talking about the role that Tony Blair had played in all of this and that he had been an interlocutor between the White House between the Gulf Arab states between the Israeli government because, of course, that is reprising the role that he held when he was head of the quartet group.

15:29And so 20 point peace plan and the building blocks that need to be put in place and where money would come from for investment. That does feel as if it's got a lot of Tony Blair's fingerprints on it. And this person who I say is very much at the centre of this of the Starmer government was saying as much to me yesterday along those lines. And then today we wake up to a tweet from Steve Wyckoff, not quite saying that, but not far off, saying, I would like to acknowledge the vital role of the United Kingdom in assisting and coordinating efforts that have led us to this historic day in Israel. In particular, I want to recognise the incredible input and tireless efforts of the National Security Advisor Jonathan Powell.

16:18Who was Jonathan Powell? Jonathan Powell, before he was the National Security Advisor many years ago, was Tony Blair's right-hand man in securing the Good Friday Agreement in Easter 1998. Well, so he knows what a peace deal looks like. And he knows the thing that you have heard over the years from those involved in the Good Friday Agreement is that you cannot not make a good deal by getting more than the other person. If you think you have come away with something that looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true. And all that means is that it won't hold. In other words, if you just leave at this point in the Trump conversation, in the Netanyahu conversation, which is we got the hostages back, we're done here, you are not done and you are setting yourself up for failure.

17:06So I was talking to somebody very close to the Starmer government who said they didn't want to give sort of too much away. They said it wasn't really their lane. But this person used the phrase, I heard his Tony-ness has been heavily involved in brackets, pissing off civil servants in the process, which suggested to me a sort of a slightly sort of raised eyebrow, wry smile of like, oh, you know. Tony at it again. He's at it again. He's doing his thing. And that sense of he was sort of getting, maybe getting ahead of himself, but there's nothing that, you know, that Starmer would not want to see go ahead here because everyone is invested in Middle East peace.

17:47But they also said that the France-Germany-UK trio, the trio that they call the E3, had actually managed to keep a lot of Middle East stakeholders on board when Trump started going mad over the whole, like, you know, Costa del Gaza, the Gaza resort stuff. And so I think the importance of the way this was sort of shaped and planned was just, as you say, in using the leaders of Arab countries, of Middle East nations. This could not look like something that was bestowed by sort of colonial powers. It could not look like a sort of, you know, 1900s mandate that was coming from the UK. I think that's why they've been so sort of cautious about any title for Blair in this one.

18:32You know, they do not want to have a Viceroy Blair in the picture, just like they don't really want to have an Emperor Trump in the picture. It has to be this kind of technocratic board that is eventually governing Gaza. And I don't want to get too ahead here, but this is part of what those 20 steps are doing. Yes, we will get the hostages home. That is the first visible sign that Hamas is going to be serious about this. The next step is humanitarian aid. We're already hearing that trucks, hot meals, water is starting to go into Gaza now. That is absolutely the most important next step. Then what happens?

19:08People are returning to Gaza, trying to find their homes. Absolutely nothing there. So then you've got this nightmare. And to go back to this idea, the deal does not stick if you think you've done better than the other side. It only sticks if everyone is committed to trying to get something out of it. Exactly. So the other aspect of the Good Friday Agreement, and this is where Jonathan Powell, currently the National Security Advisor and Tony Blair, you know, former prime minister, know this all too well. There are some issues that you're not going to get agreement on immediately. So you kick the can down the road and you can see that happening in this case as well.

19:46So, you know, with the Good Friday Agreement, what was going to be happening about verifiable decommissioning of IRA weapons? The whole painful issue of prisoner releases. How was power sharing instalment going to work? These were things. I mean, even funny enough, the border, you know, which has really raised its head over the Brexit years. The clever thing, the cleverest thing about the Good Friday Agreement was how much was sort of gently fudged with goodwill. So you have to get to a place of goodwill before you can work out any of the details. Exactly. So this is what I think is so instructive.

20:24And this is why I suspect that Powell and Blair are playing such a crucial role in all of this, because the last time there was a major peace deal that has lasted. Transformed. transformed was the Good Friday agreement which kind of dealt with an awful lot of issues that are not the same but there are similarities in what needs to happen to get this forward. One thing that this person in government did say to me yesterday like I say we need to have some Palestinians involved in this and soon this cannot look like it is just a British German French American operation where we'll transplant and maybe the odd Gulf leader as well We need to make sure that this has got buying from the Palestinian people and is not just being imposed upon them.

21:10But the problems ahead are enormous. You know, you've got all these Hamas fighters with machine guns and weaponry and ammunition dumps and all the rest of it. You know, if you're putting in a technocratic administration, how are they going to be the ones who make sure that everyone gives up their weapons? And I think there are still... And what part does the Palestinian Authority play when they're already trying to minimise any authority that Fatah, that the Palestinian Authority has in the West Bank, right? You can't just deal with one part of what we now call Palestine without dealing with the West Bank at the same time.

21:49Look, this is not a day for just kind of standing on the sidelines with buckets of ice cold water and throwing it over what is unhappening. This is huge what's happening in the Knesset. This is huge what's going to be happening in Sharm el-Sheikh. It is true that the guns have fallen silent mostly in Gaza right now. But it was also kind of, I think, journalistically negligent not to talk about some of these massive obstacles that are still in the way. Godspeed, God will that they can sort these out. But we ain't there yet. And I think to start thinking that we are is just fallacious. There's something also really curious about the calendar.

22:30And to take you into this, I need to explain that the Israeli calendar is lunar. So it doesn't have the same dates every day of the year. In other words, you know, Hanukkah doesn't fall on the same day every year. It sort of shifts a bit. and two years ago the events the horrific massacre of october the 7th fell on simchat Torah which is ironically or maybe not ironically intended a day of great joy it's a bank holiday it's a day of festivity and it's a day of wonder and it's a day of absolute delight the kids all get sweets there's lots of dancing it's a kind of it's a big national celebration and because of the way the calendar works, this has come, today has come at the end of the week of Sukkot, which is the festival of the tabernacle, and tomorrow is Simchat Torah.

23:21So weirdly, there will be the ghost of that day, two years on, which was a day of enormous tragedy on October the 7th. And in In the Israeli calendar, in the Jewish calendar, Simchat Torah will now be a day of enormous festivity. And I say that because in one way, it kind of creates a gap, I guess. You know, there will be a sense that tomorrow will be a day of remembrance, memorial and celebration. And then, and then what? Then the hard work starts. Then the next bit starts. then you have to say right that is that two-year period now what does the future look like and for more on this in the coming days do listen to lbc which is free on the global player app

24:21the news agents so just when you think the water can't get any hotter for prince andrew yesterday it did the sun on sunday had an email allegedly written by prince andrew in which he told the convicted paedophile jeffrey epstein we are in this together the day after a picture he was seen embracing virginia juffre and that was published in 2011 and emily this comes after your interview with him back in 2019 when he said by that stage he had broken all contact with prince Andrew. So in the interview in 2019, Prince Andrew was trying to explain why after Epstein was an acknowledged, a convicted sex offender, he'd spent 18 months there about in jail, the prince had continued his friendship.

25:15And the reason that he gave in a weird roundabout way was that he didn't feel able to break off contact on the phone or in a text or an email because it would be dishonourable, would not be the honourable thing to do. So he explained to me at length why he'd gone to stay with Epstein. He went to stay with the disgraced, the convicted Epstein in his townhouse in December of 2010. he says in order to be able to take him through why I felt that I could no longer have this friendship with him. And we're going to play you the clip of him telling me how he broke off his friendship with Epstein from that interview.

26:03Why? Why were you staying with a convicted sex offender? Right. I have always, ever since this has happened and since this has become, as it were, public knowledge that I was there, I've questioned myself as to why did I go, what was I doing and was it the right thing to do? Now I went there with the sole purpose of saying to him that because he had been convicted, it was inappropriate for us to be seen together. And I had a number of people counsel me in both directions, either to go and see him or not to go and see him. And I took the judgment call that because this was serious and I felt that doing it over the telephone was the chicken's way of doing it.

26:59I had to go and see him and talk to him. And I went to see him and I was doing a number of other things in New York at the time. And we had an opportunity to go for a walk in the park. and that was the conversation coincidentally that was photographed which was when I said to him I said look because of what has happened I don't think it is appropriate that we should remain in contact and by mutual agreement during that walk in the park we decided that we would part company and I left I think it was the next day and to this day I never had any contact with him from that day forward. So as you listen to this, you realise that he is basically trying to create an impression that it was something he felt it was important to do in person because a lot was resting on it and that as the Duke of York, it would be honourable for him to tell him in person.

28:00So he says they went for a walk in Central Park. There's that very famous picture of the two of them being snapped. We don't know exactly why that picture was taken, but much of the reporting around it has suggested it was because Epstein would find it useful to have a picture of the two of them together. In other words, kind of compromise material. That comes in February. In other words, two months after he said he broke off the friendship. And I think the problem with it is it makes you re-watch every ounce of that interview knowing that he lied about that. People often ask me, you know, did you believe Andrew?

28:39Did you believe he was telling the truth? What did you think? Do you think he's guilty? I've never gone down that line. I've never actually said, oh, I think he was guilty of that. I said I was the journalist, I was the interviewer. I just want to make sure I ask the questions for those who had the questions to be asked. But as soon as you find a smoking gun like this email, if it turns out to be true and correct and well reported, it makes you re-question everything you know about the interview itself. It makes you look at his face in a particular way, look at the tone of his words in a particular way, look at where his gaze is in a particular way and wonder if he's actually lying about everything else as well.

29:19Now, that isn't to say that he is lying, but it opens the door. You suddenly realise that if he wasn't on particularly stable ground there, as has been disproved by subsequent events, then how do we know that any of it was true? Look, it's not the only person he's made a liar of. I mean, you know, Jeffrey Epstein has cast this shadow over a lot of people now. And it looks like, you know, Prince Andrew's office have not commented on the email, but it looks like they haven't denied it either. And therefore, he was lying to you in that respect. And as you say, Emily, it makes you think, what else did he say there that may not have been true and that puts the royal family in a difficult position because there are some things that you know prince andrew clings on to knight of the garter and all this other stuff and what does the king do about it it's not just a kind of well he lied to me in an interview six years ago it is the credibility of prince andrew still being part of the royal family.