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Podcast Episode Notes: The News Agents - "The Man the BBC Censored for Calling Trump Corrupt"
Episode Overview In this episode, historian and author Rutger Bregman joins Lewis Goodall to discuss a recent controversy surrounding his BBC Reith lecture, where a critical comment about Donald Trump was censored. The conversation explores themes of censorship, media power, moral ambition, and the responsibilities of journalists and citizens in a polarizing political landscape.
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Key Themes and Discussions
- Censorship and Media Power
- Bregman delivered a lecture on the decadence of the political elite, which included a line characterizing Trump as "the most openly corrupt president in American history."
- The line was removed from the broadcast on legal advice, sparking discussions about media power and the fear of political backlash.
- Bregman expressed disappointment, stating it indicated a lack of journalistic integrity and a capitulation to political pressure.
- Moral Ambition
- Bregman's new book, Moral Ambition, argues for a reevaluation of careers and the pursuit of work that contributes positively to society.
- He discusses the prevalence of "bullshit jobs," where individuals feel their work lacks value or impact.
- The key message emphasizes that talented individuals should redirect their skills towards solving pressing global challenges like poverty, disease, and the decline of democracy.
- Critique of Modern Work
- Bregman references a study indicating that 25% of people view their jobs as socially meaningless, with journalists feeling somewhat less disillusioned (around 20%).
- He encourages listeners to consider how their work contributes to society and to strive for jobs that promote meaningful change.
- The Role of Elites in Society
- Bregman calls for a "skin in the game elite"—individuals with power and privilege should use their resources and influence for the greater good.
- He reflects on historical movements, such as British abolitionism, where successful entrepreneurs became social reformers, advocating for societal change.
- Political Discourse and Liberalism
- The discussion touches on the current state of liberalism, which Bregman argues has lost its moral foundation and become complacent.
- He suggests that the decline of liberalism has led to a crisis of identity and morality in contemporary society, drawing parallels to historical moments of decadence that spurred significant social movements.
- The Future of Liberal Democracy
- Bregman expresses cautious optimism, noting that significant moral revolutions often arise during periods of societal decay.
- He draws lessons from history, suggesting that today's challenges could lead to a resurgence of moral ambition and a revitalization of democratic values.
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Key Quotes
- "Here you have one of the big media networks... and the fact that they would... there was no pretense even that this was about journalism." – Rutger Bregman on BBC censorship.
- "The purpose of life is to do something worthy of remembrance." – On the importance of meaningful work.
- "If you're so smart then why do you work here?" – Campaign slogan aimed at professionals in less impactful industries.
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Conclusion The episode encapsulates a crucial discussion on the intersection of media, morality, and the individual's role in shaping society. Bregman's insights challenge listeners to reflect on their professional lives and encourage a collective effort to pursue moral ambition in a world that often rewards the contrary.
For more insights, listen to the full episode of The News Agents featuring Rutger Bregman, and explore his book Moral Ambition.
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Production Credits:
- Hosts: Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, Lewis Goodall
- Production Team: Natalie Inge, Michaela Walters, Mikey Baggs, Jess Williamson, Anna Georgievich, Lizzie Ward, Shane Fennelly, Arvin Baddowell
- Executive Producer: Louis Dagenhart
- Editor: Tom Hughes
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VORutger Bregman and Media Controversy
0:45 to 1:43
Discussion on Bregman's BBC censorship incident and its implications.
“He had been asked to deliver the highly prestigious BBC Wreath Lecture, an annual honour awarded to someone who has made a singular contribution to our public intellectual life.”
Moral Ambition Book Insights
1:43 to 3:08
Exploration of Bregman's book 'Moral Ambition' and its core messages.
“It says, The purpose of life is to do something worthy of remembrance.”
Redefining Purpose in Work
3:08 to 6:24
Bregman discusses the importance of finding meaningful work.
“of lobbyists, managers, consultants, corporate lawyers, all people who could go on strike and the world would be just fine.”
Challenges of Career Change
6:24 to 8:13
A candid look at the difficulties of switching careers mid-life.
“They're not doing something of particular value.”
The Role of Capitalism
8:13 to 10:49
Bregman reflects on capitalism's role in shaping career paths and ambitions.
“So in an initial version of this book, I had a line about, you know, if you're past the age of 30, it's probably too late.”
Historical Perspectives on Abolitionism
10:49 to 14:01
Discussion on the effectiveness of historical abolition movements and lessons learned.
“You also have a lot of people who are fairly idealistic but not very ambitious.”
The Dynamics of Abolitionism
14:01 to 15:00
Explore the role of capitalism and entrepreneurship in the abolitionist movement.
“But, yeah, you can make a ton of money there.”
Abolitionists and Their Motivations
15:01 to 16:42
Learn about the motivations and backgrounds of abolitionists and their societal impact.
“These were people who had built really successful companies, who had made a lot of money.”
The Role of Religion in Moral Movements
16:43 to 18:16
Discuss the influence of religion on historical social movements and moral ambitions.
“And in a way, and your book is exactly in that tradition.”
Decline of Liberalism and Its Impact
18:17 to 20:05
Analyze the decline of liberalism and its effects on modern society and governance.
“I mean, on some level, do you agree with that?”
Show all 18 chapters
The Moral Vacuum in Society
20:06 to 22:00
Examine the moral vacuum in modern society and its historical parallels.
“So I would not talk about the decline of religion.”
Reclaiming Patriotism and Moral Language
22:01 to 23:35
Discover the importance of patriotism and moral language in contemporary politics.
“And this was a society where the most talented people wanted to work for government.”
The Controversial Lecture on Trump
25:14 to 28:00
Discuss the controversy surrounding the speaker's comments on Donald Trump during the Reith Lectures.
“Have you ever had an energy drink that makes you feel like your head is going to explode?”
The Censorship Incident: Triggered by Trump
28:00 to 30:15
Learn about the events leading to the BBC censoring a lecture line about Trump.
“And there was one line in the lecture, though, that said that Donald Trump is the most openly corrupt president in American history.”
Legal Pressures and Media Integrity
30:16 to 33:06
Discover the implications of legal advice on editorial decisions within media.
“wouldn't have been a problem if we were not in this specific situation with the panorama, with the lawsuit, etc.”
Reflections on the BBC Experience
33:07 to 34:34
Hear insights about the emotional impact of censorship from a high-profile lecturer.
“What does it make you think about wider BBC coverage of Trump?”
Understanding Trump and Authoritarianism
34:35 to 36:25
Examine connections between Trump’s actions and authoritarian tendencies in governance.
“They caught me up that Wednesday with the message that they wanted to censor me.”
The Future of Liberalism and Democracy
36:26 to 40:06
Explore the potential for reinvigorating liberal democracy in challenging times.
“Like I can give you a Miscellany quotes.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. In a different day and age, I would mainly have been angry. Now I was mostly sad, really sad, because here you have one of the big media networks of the world. You know, one of the more powerful media networks of the world, you would hope. And the fact that they would, there was no pretense even that this was about journalism. It was like, look, we're just scared. It's the lawyers advising us.
0:26Lewis:That is the voice of Rutger Bregman. I think it's fair to say that he's not a household name in the UK, but he is one of Europe's most eminent historians and philosophers, an unafraid voice for the creed of liberalism. You might remember that just a few months ago, unwittingly, he found himself at the centre of a very British national controversy. He had been asked to deliver the highly prestigious BBC Wreath Lecture, an annual honour awarded to someone who has made a singular contribution to our public intellectual life. The theme was the decadence of Western political elites. how they had allowed, Bregman said, through their political sloth, a rot to set in.
1:10Lewis:A rot which has led to the populist backlashes we see all around us. In the first lecture, delivered in person, there was a throwaway, innocuous, but critical line about Donald Trump. When it was broadcast, that single line was removed by the BBC. Censored, apparently, on legal advice. this chilled Bregman as it chilled us at the time when we reported on it he has much to say on that episode and what that moment means but he has much more to say than that he's just written a book moral ambition which is a sort of political self-help guide a call to arms to people to you to us to give up our useless jobs and do something to be the political change from within to give ourselves the hope we say we crave.
2:02Lewis:So, at a time when, for liberalism, politics seems anything but bullish, we asked Rutger into the Newsagent studio to talk about BBC censorship in the age of Trump, this age of disorder, what we might learn from other disordered pasts, and what we might yet dare to hope for. Welcome to the Newsagents.
2:26Lewis:The News Agents Welcome to The News Agents Thank you so much for joining us Thanks for having me Great to be here Not at all So much to talk about with you Not least because of course You found yourself rather unwittingly A centre of national controversy Oh yeah Here in the UK That happened Yeah that happened We'll get to that We'll get to that Because we want to talk about your book Moral Ambition How to Find Your Purpose Which is a really interesting read And not least because I don't know I suppose maybe as a man who spends most of his time living in journalism, and in particular, you know, in a podcast, I almost felt a bit sort of targeted by some of it, right?
3:01Lewis:So let me tell you why. It says, The purpose of life is to do something worthy of remembrance. It's aimed at the class of influencers and marketeers, of lobbyists, managers, consultants, corporate lawyers, all people who could go on strike and the world would be just fine. I kind of can't help but feel that if all the podcasters in the world went on strike, no one would notice. So tell us a little bit more about why you wanted to write the book and what your main message is, because it is quite a moral book. Yeah, oh, absolutely. And that's why it's in the title. So a couple of years ago, a team of Dutch economists published a big study about socially meaningless jobs.
3:33So these are jobs of people who, according to themselves, can go on strike and nothing much would happen. They think that their own job doesn't add anything of value to society. They asked people that question in modern developed economies. And it turns out that around 25 % of people think that their own job is, as they call it, a BS job. Now, journalists are an interesting category because it's around, it's somewhere in the middle. It's around 20%. That low? Yeah, yeah. Well, that's heartening. I happen to think that journalism, good journalism, is a pillar of democracy and civilization. So I rather like it, the good forms of it, at least.
4:10Lewis:And what made you, I mean, of course, some people would say, you know, being an academic, this is in some ways a work of philosophy. And some people would say philosophy itself and certainly academia is almost when asked is what is a sort of pointless job doesn't add very much. Some people would say, I think they'd be wrong. But some would say, oh, absolutely. Sort of primus inter paris. Yeah, well, actually, I think they often be right. And one of the reasons I wrote this book is because I was honestly fed up with myself. I spent a decade recording podcasts, writing op-eds in the pundits industry, giving my opinions about what other people should do to make the world a better place.
4:47And I looked in the mirror and I didn't really like what I saw. So what do you do in those situations? You write the kind of book that you think you should read. So it's a little bit like a self-help book to make your life worse or at least more challenging because I really needed that. I really needed that cold shower. And yeah, it has forced me to quit my own job to start an organization.
5:13Lewis:And tell us, so the sort of, yes, the diagnosis is that there are too many of these sort of bullshit jobs, these meaningless jobs, jobs that add neither worth nor value to the self, but also to wider society, to others. But what's your premise and idea there for what should replace them? So moral ambition is really to drive the will to make this world a wildly better place. The diagnosis that I have, that we have at the organization I co-founded, which is the School for Moral Ambition, is super simple. We think that the most talented, most driven people ought to be working on the most pressing global issues.
5:46And examples range from global poverty to terrible diseases like malaria to moral atrocities such as factory farming, the decline of democracy, rise of authoritarianism. There are so many people who can make a massive difference against these challenges, but are currently not. So what we're trying to do and what hopefully this book is a guide for is to basically pivot your career and do what matters. It's a sort of creed occur, a sort of call to arms in a way to people that are very talented or have something to offer, but their potential for whatever reason is not being tapped.
6:24Lewis:They're not doing something of particular value. And just on a practical level, it's an interesting moral conceit, which we can talk more about. But on a practical level, I mean, how easy is that to do? I mean, you may be, I mean, what's an example, would you say, for example, of the sort of jobs that you have in mind? Oh, could be all kinds of things. Let's say one of the biggest global health problems worldwide, that is still the tobacco industry. Big tobacco, probably the most evil industry out there, legal evil industry. So what we started to do is we started to recruit some of the best lobbyists, corporate lawyers, some financial legal minds to quit their jobs in what a friend of mine calls the Bermuda Triangle of Talent.
7:03So that's finance, corporate law and consultancy. And we sent them to Brussels, for example, to start lobbying against big tech. That's just one example. But it just really depends on the kind of challenge that you're working on. You need all kinds of different skill sets for different challenges. Maybe there are other challenges where you need more of a marketeer or a journalist skill set. Or, you know, just be a class of activist who throws, I don't know, Molotov cocktails at the riot police. That's sometimes also what we need. It just depends. And practically speaking, how easy is that to do?
7:36Lewis:In the sense that, you know, and you will know, just as there will be many people, it is not a new state of being to be dissatisfied with what you're doing in life. You know, that is basically since time immemorial, people will be dissatisfied with where they are in their careers, whether they're adding any value. But practically speaking, by the time most people get to that point, they're probably midlife, right? Mid-career. And they probably have mortgages. They probably have families. They have liabilities. They have obligations. They're difficult to extricate yourself from and then decide to go and work on eradicating global poverty or whatever it happens to be.
8:09Lewis:Sure, sure. Yeah. So although the will might be there, the motive might be there, the means to achieve it, how can they be realized? So in an initial version of this book, I had a line about, you know, if you're past the age of 30, it's probably too late. You know, you have your set of cheese knives and a mortgage and kids. And my publisher made me remove that line because apparently it's not good for book sales. It's also not true. We've got a lot of people in our community. I've met a lot of people who really made a pretty impressive change. But I would be the last one to say that this is easy.
8:42But that's why it's called moral ambition. I meet a lot of people on the left side of the political spectrum who think that, you know, just, you know, eating no meat, having fewer kids, not flying, all those kind of things, you know, shrinking your environmental footprint, that that's going to save the world and the planet. But look, in the best possible scenario, you'll have reduced your footprint to zero. You might as well be dead. If the problems that we face are really big, then surely the solutions ought to be big as well. And our ambitions need to be big as well. So I've really enjoyed talking to a lot of entrepreneurs for this book.
9:20People who actually know what it takes to go from zero to one, to build something out of nothing. And I just think that we need to try and channel a lot of that entrepreneurial energy towards some of these neglected causes.
9:32Lewis:Because I'm struck by in terms of this sort of the ends that you're talking about, the sort of things that people might should be doing or ought to be doing. They strike me as a list. I mean, extremely noble, for sure. But they are, I suppose, causes or ideas or needs which are sort of associated often. And I'm going to use a term that's a bit pejorative and I don't mean it to be, but it's just a good shorthand. It's a bit sort of do-gooder. You know, it's as if that's a bad thing. but it's associated with maybe a certain type of politics, a certain type of person, a certain type of, again, for want of a better expression, liberal.
10:04Yeah.
10:04Lewis:I just wonder whether, for example, in your sort of moral framework about this, would someone currently engage, say, as a stock market trader who is generating wealth, but is generating wealth largely privately, although there will be taxation benefits and so on, would that count in your framework or moral framework as someone who, or doing a job that is bullshit or of no greater value? So we've got two variables. The first one is how ambitious are you? The second one is how idealistic are you? So in that Bermuda Triangle of talent, you know, people working in finance, you meet a lot of people who are genuinely ambitious and very talented.
10:42And you kind of have to be in order to survive in that sort of industry. Sure, sure, sure. But the impact they're making on the world, I find it striking and also kind of refreshing, actually, to talk to a lot of people also for this book in that world who basically immediately agree with me, who are like, yeah, I'm a hedge fund manager and I can do, it's not really making the world a better place and maybe I should do something else with my talents instead. But it kind of happened. You also have a lot of people who are fairly idealistic but not very ambitious. The point is really to combine those things.
11:15And one of the funniest things we found out when we started in Amsterdam two years ago, we had these billboards in on the south axis this is the basically the city of amsterdam you know the financial district we had these billboards that said if you are so smart then why do you work here right we we have discovered that if you talk to one of these bankers and say oh you're so so immoral like why are you doing this you're so greedy that doesn't work that completely backfires and they're like oh you can't keep up we're the sharks you're our prey you know stop whining but But if you say something like, okay, wow, you've got one life on this planet.
11:50You're so talented. And this is what you do, right? You shift around a few numbers. If you're a consultant, you produce boring PowerPoints that no one wants to look at. You know, you sell crap that people don't really care about. And what we've discovered is that that really hurts. So we took that approach also to Harvard recently, where we started our first Moral Ambition Fellowship. We're recruiting some of the best students there to, again, not spend their summer at JP Morgan. but work at some of the most impactful nonprofits. And you know the line that worked best with these students? It was, you didn't fight your way into Harvard to end up in a bullshit job.
12:27And that resonates immensely because a lot of these kids, when they first arrived at Harvard, they had written these beautiful application essays about all the global problems they aspire to solve, from poverty to climate breakdown. And we're just reminding them that that indeed is what a great life looks like, that you're really making your mark on history.
12:46Lewis:Is this a book or is this a set of ideas which is fundamentally a critique of capitalism and the capitalist order that we have? In a sense that one of the fundamental posits that you're making or the thing that you're positing is that people are basically, people of talent are ending up in the wrong place. But of course there's a reason those people are ending up in talent, which is that the market value being attributed to their talent is in particular places, right? And it's in some of the industries we were just talking about, whether it's tech or whether it's finance or whatever it happens to be.
13:16Lewis:So naturally, society, the order, the political order in which we live is giving us that signal very clearly that that is where those people ought to be. So I'm just wondering what you're sort of saying with this book is to say that we ought to resist that in some ways, individuals and achieve that high level of moral ambition. But is that is that realistic when that order exists in the way that it does? Because those incentives are always going to be there. Right. Or at least they have been for a long time. Well, I'm an old fashioned European social democrat. So social democrats definitely believe in the power of capitalism and markets.
13:46And that's why they want to be very careful with those markets and regulate and control them properly. They also understand that like every market in the end, it's a creature of the government. Right. Take something like big tobacco, obviously heavy regulated. I think it should be regulated and basically abolished. But, yeah, you can make a ton of money there. And there are a lot of political decisions behind that. I've actually really come to appreciate that capitalist energy. For this book, I spent a lot of time. Social progress has been achieved through harnessing the dynamism of the free market.
14:18So I spent a lot of time studying the British abolitionist movement for this book. Initially, I wanted to write about Dutch abolitionists, but that would have been a very short book because it hardly existed. In case people don't know what abolition is, you're talking about abolition of the slave trade. Yeah, sorry, sorry. This big, big movement that started in the 18th century. And then I looked at French abolitionism. It was a bunch of writers and intellectuals who got very little done. in Portugal and Spain, there was almost nothing. In the US, it was a total failure, very unpopular, like being an abolitionist back then was worse than being a vegan today.
14:51That's how unpopular it was. But in Britain, it became a huge movement. And here's what really struck me. Of the 12 founders of the British Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, 10 were entrepreneurs. These were people who had built really successful companies, who had made a lot of money. But the reason we remember them today is not because they were rich. I mean, I've met quite a few rich people in my life. You've probably met quite a few rich people in your life. Most people understand that. A lot of them are pretty boring. They're just following the script that was written by other people.
15:23They're like, let's buy a boat. Let's buy a bigger house. I mean, that's about how far their imagination gets. But then there are some amazing exceptions, like these British abolitionists. And this book is also a call for not just people who are very talented, but also for people who have that other sources of privilege like capital to make a massive
15:42Lewis:we do have some of those equivalent people though there today don't we i mean some of the richest people in the world are great philanthropists bill gates for example but there are others i mean there have been as modern capitalism has existed in a way that it has it has tended to generate you have some people who are extremely rich and not interested in philanthropy or social movements and some and some who are that's always been the case isn't it yeah but there have been periods in history when doing good became really fashionable. So if you would have asked people like William Wilberforce, the great British abolitionist, about his life's mission, he would have said, you know, I want to make doing good more prestigious.
16:16That's what this is all about. I think we need a skin in the game elite of people who actually practice what they preach and use everything that they have to make the world a better place. And abolitionism was just a part of that.
16:29Lewis:But what's something that would have motivated many of those people, particularly involved in the abolitionist movement, but also even, you know, if you extend it to the United States as well, the similar forces, one thing that they will often have had in common as well, other than being rich, is that they were religious. Yeah, absolutely. Or that there was a strong religious doctrinal influence in society, which we do not have. Yeah. And clearly lots of philosophers, you know, this is following in a trend of others over the years, have argued, I think clearly rightly, that we have lost very much in the, you know, particularly in the post-war period, we have lost a sense of the politics of virtue and about what virtue means in terms of the good life and so on.
17:02Lewis:And in a way, and your book is exactly in that tradition. But can you have that kind of moral ambition, do you think, in a set of societies which are deeply secular and largely irreligious, as certainly European societies have become? I think absolutely so. What I found most moving, you know, after I published this book and we started this movement, is that for a lot of people who are joining us, indeed, it's almost like a metaphysical, spiritual, religious experience. I think, like, I can't go back to, you know, the Christianity that I was brought up with. Like, intellectually, that doesn't work with me.
17:34I can't suddenly decide to, you know, believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Doesn't work that way. But I grew up with those five questions of religion. Who are we? Where do we come from? Where do we go? How should we live? And what is sacred? And I think that we are now in a moment when, indeed, we have this giant spiritual task to provide new answers to those big questions.
17:57Lewis:Do you agree with conservative, you know, conservative thinkers today? And we see this in the language that is used, not by conservative thinkers, but just by, you know, radical right online and this sort of stuff. But there is an argument to say, you know, that the West is sort of, and Europe in particular, is sort of morally lost, that it's sort of morally empty. And that's one of the ways that our civilization, our European civilization is declining. I mean, on some level, do you agree with that? I would basically agree. And I think that those people on the right are often a symptom of that decadence and a symptom of, indeed, Europe and both the U.S.
18:30being lost. So I recently gave the Reith lectures, indeed, for the BBC. And the first lecture is about, first, U.S. elites. And two words come to mind. It's a combination of immorality and unseriousness. But when I look at European elites, I would add irrelevance there. I mean, Europe is increasingly an open-air museum. I'm very sad to say because as I said I'm an old-fashioned European socio-democrat but yes that is definitely a massive problem and ironically I would sometimes use exactly the same language they talk a lot about the fall of Rome I see the same similarities but I just would include them in what way explain that I mean read Edward Gibbon right it's just an endless list of The great historian of the Roman Empire.
19:17Yeah, yeah, of leaders who were just fundamentally immoral and in seriousness, who betrayed their own people, who did whatever was easiest for them, and sometimes who turned into outright narcissists, sadists. I mean, I think you can take a look at how someone like Elon Musk has completely degenerated and seems to have lost his mind.
19:39Lewis:I mean, you're talking about the decadence of political elites. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But those people could easily be a character in Gibbon's book, in my view. I mean, it seems to me, just on this finally, I mean, it seems to me that just think about all these themes as to why that might have been. I mean, clearly, it seems to me that there's three things that have got us to where we are in terms of that moral vacuum, right? One is the decline of religion. Whatever you think about it, I think that's inarguable because it provided a moral framework for our societies. In terms of thinking about... Sorry, can I push back a little bit?
20:10So I would not talk about the decline of religion. I would talk about the decline of liberalism. So I think that liberalism is the greatest ideology that humanity has ever come up with. I agree. It is the tradition of the abolitionists, of the women's right campaigners, of the civil right campaigners. It led to the declaration of the universal declaration of human rights. It is an extremely powerful, extremely demanding tradition. And it has been completely hollowed hat. I mean, sometimes that's called neoliberalism, the idea that, you know, it's all about just doing your thing, consuming whatever you want.
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20:44And maybe the government regulates it a little bit by giving some subsidies here.
20:48Lewis:Well, I was going to say, I completely agree with that. But I think that the two things that have contributed to that hollowing out, as you said, I think religion is a slightly separate thing. But certainly politically speaking, one is the over-reliance on the market, as you say, particularly since the 1970s and 1980s, thinking it's going to solve all of our problems. And if we interfere in any way, then it will be problematic. But the other one, I suppose, in terms of, you know, people thinking that they ought to have a kind of greater moral contribution to society, put it that way, is an over-reliance on the state, right?
21:16Lewis:The rise of the state after the Second World War and people thinking that, you know, the state would largely solve our problems for us. And that hasn't always proven to be the case. In fact, sometimes it's perhaps I wonder whether you think you. So I would. I would. It's crowded out those crowded out those impulses. Let's go back to that study I quoted at the beginning about socially meaningless jobs. It turns out there are three times as many BS jobs in the private sector as in the public sector. I mean, this is completely contrary to the stereotypes that you often hear about these useless government bureaucrats.
21:46If you ask people themselves, it's way more likely that in the private sector they will think their job is socially useless. And that makes a lot of sense because government is providing education, it's providing health care. I think what we should aspire to is a society that we used to have much more of in the 60s and the 70s when tax rates were much higher. And this was a society where the most talented people wanted to work for government. You know, there are still some places in the world where this is more normal, like Singapore, like Finland, perhaps. But we have created a society where a lot of talent in the US, I mean, or the UK, a lot of talent is flowing to Silicon Valley or to Wall Street or to the city.
22:23And that doesn't have to be this way. We can design different talent pipelines. But could it be the case?
22:29Lewis:I mean, I think that's all right. But could it not also be the case that it is true that, you know, when you're talking or harking back to some of the great kind of civic traditions of the 19th century, when liberalism was the kind of civic religion of the time and so on, you're talking about some of the movements that you're talking about. You know, you could mention others like the Chartists or others. Sure. That's certainly since the war. The idea, you know, the state has generally speaking got bigger and got bigger, even actually through during the neoliberal turn in the 80s in lots of ways.
22:54Lewis:It stayed the same size. It just started doing different things. And it's outsourced a lot. And outsourced a lot. That does affect the sort of assumptions of what a kind of moral life ought to be and what my role in society might be, i.e. that there is no room for the individual, even the collection individuals that you talk about, which have been responsible for some of the great social change. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it's misguided to think that this is about market versus state or capitalism versus socialism. For me, it's more about, I don't know, morality versus immorality or moral ambition versus laziness.
23:25That's more what this is about. But that's interesting.
23:26Lewis:The morality, immorality, that is language that I think, you know, modern European politicians, particularly on the liberal side, have been uncomfortable in talking about. Yeah, yeah. And they should get much more comfortable. Like, they have given away so much. Take something like patriotism, love of country, right? One of the most powerful tools in politics. It has been basically been given away. I thought it was extremely refreshing. Last year, we had elections in the Netherlands. And finally, there was a Liberal Democrat, Rob Jetten, who won the elections big time because he embraced the Dutch flag for years and years.
24:00You know, when people saw the flag, they were like, oh, that's the far right. That's like you sing the anthem and you wave at the flag. Well, that means you're a fascist. I was like, no, I'm a proud Dutch patriot. I fucking love my country. I think it's one of the best. and it's one of those examples where we've given away a whole language a whole way of experiencing the world and whole identity and we should reclaim that but there are many other examples it is the language of morality it is the language of progress of innovation it's all these kind of things that for me as again as an old-fashioned european social democrat is at the heart of liberalism at my and my ideology it's just that a lot of it has been forgotten given away hollowed you know, man.
24:43Right, we'll be back with more from Rutger right after this.
24:49Lewis:News you can trust and the conversations that matter. With award-winning journalists at the heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff. Discover how today's story affects your life. Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation. Hey, it's Cubby. Have you ever had an energy drink that makes you feel like your head is going to explode? Well, Liquid Death now makes a better-for-you energy drink. Liquid Death Sparkling Energy feels like a coffee, not an electric chair.
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26:21Lewis:The News Agents. Your book's very, very interesting. I mean, I can't help, of course, have you here and not ask you about the other way in which you have made it into British national life over the last couple of months because, of course, you've already mentioned it. Yeah. You were asked this year, you were given a prestigious honour to deliver the Reith Lectures for the BBC. We covered it on the show at the time, but in case you don't know, the Reith Lectures, they've been going on now for decades and decades and decades. A very august figure from around the world, sometimes a historian or philosopher, cultural figure, whatever, is asked to opine and deliver some considerations on the sort of state of the world in whatever form.
26:56Lewis:You were asked to do this. Were you pleased to be asked to do it at the time? Absolutely. To be honest... It must have been thrilling. I mean, so I'll tell you the first story. What happened is I was doing an event with Tim Harford, the great economist. And he said, hey, have you realized there are scouts? There are scouts in the audience. Apparently, some people from the BBC had come to listen. Reef lecture scouts. Yeah, reef lecture scouts. And that's a new one. Yeah, they got in touch later and said, hey, we're considering you to give the reef lectures. If that would happen, like in theory, what would you say?
27:30And so I thought about it for two weeks or so and came back and said, I think this is more or less what I would say during these lectures about the decadence of elites, about the need for a moral revolution, making comparisons to the abolitionists, to the suffragettes, you name it. And they were like, OK, great, you got the gig. And then you have this month long process working with some of the best editors that I've ever worked with. And at some point we had version, I don't know, 32, 33. We were really happy. At least I was. and yeah you get the honor of delivering it for 500 people in the BBC radio theater and then a couple of weeks later it was supposed to be aired but yeah remind us what remind us what happened remind us the the line yeah well question what first happened is that some idiot I think at the spectator leaked to the daily mail that my whole first lecture was one big rant against Donald Trump which is a lie it was not at all it was one big rant against my own people just like I've been doing for the last 20 minutes.
28:28And there was one line in the lecture, though, that said that Donald Trump is the most openly corrupt president in American history. But I'm basically suggesting we kind of all know that. So let's move on to more interesting things.
28:39Lewis:It was an aside. It was not the crux of even that section of the lecture. It was just almost an impassing comment. Yeah, yeah. And I had already said it in public for 500 people and with a lot of people invited by the BBC, et cetera. But then the Daily Mail heard about what was going on. And they, you know, had this thing on their front page, outrageous. You know, the BBC has invited another idiot, you know, this Dutch crazy vegan who believes in open borders. So they were like, let's have some fun with this. They also called the White House and the director of communications there said, yes, this is some horrible anti-Trump individual.
29:14But what had also changed in the meantime is that the Panorama thing had happened. And this is when the edit which had been made for Panorama and now Trump is suing the BBC. Yes. Yes. Now, don't forget, the whole thing hadn't aired yet. The election. Yeah. But then what happened is that the BBC got in touch with me the Wednesday before it was supposed to air. I was going to air on a Tuesday. And they said, hey, Rutger, yeah, we're considering taking this line about Trump out. How would you feel about that? And I was like, not good. Yeah, I'll be very clear about that. You know, I'll have to. So, like, don't.
29:52and then you know they went they started discussing it and i they told me it was being discussed at the highest level with within the bbc they said they got legal advice that the lawyers were worried and yeah less than 24 hours before it was aired they called me and said we're taking that line out and they were worried with regards to the the trump case or just more worried in general i am still not entirely clear so what they said a couple of things one they said this wouldn't have been a problem if we were not in this specific situation with the panorama, with the lawsuit, etc. So if you would have done the lecture a month earlier, it wouldn't have been a problem.
30:32The second thing they said, it was on U.S. legal advice. They said that the U.S. lawyers have advised us to take it out. And for me, the irony could not have been greater because this This whole lecture was about the cowardice of elites. It was about universities, corporations, law firms, and yes, media networks bending the knee to the regime. And the fact that they said, look, this wouldn't have been a problem a month ago, that made it only more clear for me that they were bending the knee. And the whole thing about the legal advice, I mean, come on, you've worked with lawyers, right? If you give them anything, like a text, like, should I do this?
31:10Lawyers always want you to stay in sight, right? Don't say anything. Don't do anything. There's always legal risk.
31:16Lewis:But to be clear, I mean, you know, we've talked a lot on this show. Lots of people have talked about the sort of chill wind that Trump is managing to affect. Yeah. With his repeated use of legal mechanisms, suing, threatening to sue, whatever, offered on completely spurious grounds. But nonetheless talked about the fact that that has an effect. I mean, what happened to you or the conversation you had had there absolutely confirms that exact effect, which is they said in explicit terms to you, you're saying that if he wasn't suing us or if we didn't have this legal situation, which is basically nonsense, everyone knows, we wouldn't have this problem.
31:49Lewis:And we wouldn't be doing this to you. We wouldn't have taken this line out. This line would have been completely fine. But we're just worried about basically his lawsuit. The other dimension to this, though, and you probably know way more about this than I do, is obviously there was and is a big political fight in the board of the BBC. and I think the week before that there was a big story about that in the New York Times and as you know what is it like five of the board members are political appointees from earlier conservative governments so I don't know maybe it was them you know maybe it was some Do you have any reason to believe that or is that just speculation on your part?
32:22I just know that it was discussed at the highest levels of the BBC so I don't know if it went all the way up to the board I don't know that but the BBC had been decapitated by then in the sense that you know this what is it the ceo had left and yeah how did it leave you feeling about the bbc and about about all of that experience honestly just in a different day and age i would mainly have been angry now i was mostly sad really sad because here you have one of the the big media networks of the world you know one of the more powerful media networks of the world you would hope and the fact that they would that there was no pretense even that this was about journalism that it was like look we're just scared it's the lawyers advising us and they said or even about accuracy one of them like they told me like look right it's not our decision it's the lawyer's decision i was like lawyers don't make decisions leaders do so i was just deeply saddened by the whole by the whole affair and obviously there was the irony that whenever you cancel sense or something it only gets more attention so yeah and and and the irony that the lecture itself was about what the BBC did, bending the knee, cowardice.
33:40Lewis:What does it make you think about wider BBC coverage of Trump? It's hard to believe that that's an isolated example, I suppose. It does, yeah, it does really make you wonder. It does really make you wonder because I'm, I guess I'm known for a bit of Dutch directness. I just kind of can never, I can never resist saying what I think. But you were asked to do that. It was a lecture where you were asked to give your opinion or your analysis. That's true. But when they called me, like, what are you going to do? For me, it was no doubt in my mind whatsoever. But a lot of people there don't have the platform that I have, don't have alternatives.
34:18Many of them work at the BBC for many, many years. They love their job. So, yeah, it makes you worried about what's going on inside that machine.
34:27Lewis:You responded at the time, and you made very clear, as you said, very directly what you thought about it. Do you think that they were irritated, angry with you about it, about doing that? Well, as a Dutchman, it's always very hard to get an idea of what British people think. We're confused all the time. Don't blame me. I'm sure it was very understated. Quite interesting comments from you. They caught me up that Wednesday with the message that they wanted to censor me. And the way they put it was like, yeah, we're so excited about the lecture airing next week. There's just one slight wrinkle that week.
34:59I've been there. I've been there, honestly.
35:02Lewis:Honestly, you're bringing me flashbacks. Just one thing, there's a feeling that, that's one of their favourite phrases, there's a feeling that, where is this feeling? Who's it from? Who's got it? Well, no, I'm not sure, it's just there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just while we're on Trump, just briefly before we finish, I mean, while we're on Trump, I mean, when you look at, I mean, every day seems to, and I try not to, I stop saying this show a lot, I'm very resistant to kind of the hyperbole around it and try and be considered in language, But it is hard not to see everything day by day at the moment, much more so than the first administration as a daily slide to, let's put it charitably as democratic backsliding, but less charitably, probably more accurately, just authoritarianism, isn't it?
35:42Yeah, that's it. I would even use the F word. Historians of fascism have developed a very precise vocabulary to describe these different regimes. And they have made a whole list of family resemblances that these regimes have in common. Like there's, in my view, not one definition of fascism, but there are many things that these regimes share. And the list is getting very long now.
36:04Lewis:And why would you say that about Trump? Because I think it's really important to understand what this is, because then we'll stop being surprised all the time. Then we'll stop being shocked all the time and we can prepare. And why do you think he fits that criteria or some of the criteria? The blatant disregard for global rules, the imperialism, Stephen Miller saying like, this is the world we live in. it's a world of power. Like I can give you a Miscellany quotes. I would have to log them up that are basically exactly the same. It's also the fact that I've spoken to quite a few people on the other side of the political spectrum in the US who are super open about it.
36:40I was at a Silicon Valley conference not that long ago, speaking to someone high up at Google. And I said, look, dude, you sound like an Italian fascist from the 1930s, you know, if you use that kind of language. And he was like, rocker. But we should get a little bit fashy. He was entirely serious. People like Peter Thiel, he's been dead serious about the fact that he doesn't believe freedom and democracy are incompatible. And if we have to choose, then in his view, democracy needs to go. J.D. Vance, Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon saying, you know, for the camera, like there's going to be a third term for Trump.
37:15And then when pressed, he says, yeah, I don't, we'll tell you later how we're going to do it. But there's, trust me, there's going to be a third term. So there is a word for this. It is, in my view, a form of fascism. Finally, you talked about liberalism.
37:30Lewis:Liberal democracy has been the sort of creed of certainly European and most of the West for a long time now, although democracy itself, as we've known, obviously still pretty young, barely a century old in most places. Do you think that, two parts of this question, Do you think liberalism can be reinvented successfully? Because it feels very weak right now. And does liberal democracy survive with it? Well, here's what gives me hope. When I look at the greatest moral revolutions of the last two centuries, they were ignited in periods of incredible decadence, just like our own. So the 1780s in Britain was an era of, you know, huge amounts of alcoholism in Parliament, politicians slurring their speeches.
38:15you had the future king who thought that heaven forbid would have that today but you had the future king what is it george the fourth yeah who is an absolute prick even by royal standards well he was mad bless him yeah and out of that grew basically a counter-cultural revolution of people like thomas clarkson olada equiano william wilberforce people who said enough is You know, the purpose of power is to do good.
38:43Lewis:The United States itself was born from British imperialism and decadence. Yeah, true, true. And the liberal thinking around that. But to give you an American example, it's often said that we're now living through the second Gilded Age. The first Gilded Age had these robber barons like the Vanderbilts, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, very similar to the Zuckerbergs and the Musks today. Even richer, indeed, in some ways. But what came after the Gilded Age? It was the Progressive Era. And that was a double movement. Yes, a bottom-up movement of people uniting in unions, a lot of pressure from the bottom.
39:16But it was also elites like Louis Brandes, the people's lawyer on the Supreme Court, or most famously, Theodore Roosevelt, one of my great historical heroes. a young man who when he read the books of the great heroes of the ancient past was like that's the kind of life i want to live he consciously chose to live in the arena yeah yeah in the arena yeah it's not the critic who counts and he was just he was an harvard graduate who was utterly fed up with his lazy cynical peers who said oh yeah being idealistic that sounds like to do good he was like no the purpose of being privileged the purpose of of you know having that power is to do good.
39:57And indeed, what happened was the breakup of monopolies, you know, for the first time, an income tax, progressive taxation, he really built the foundations of social democracy and the welfare state in the US. Rutger, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
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41:23Lewis:The News Agents. Well, whether you think his project is utopian or not, you cannot deny how arresting the ideas of the man are or the passion with which he puts them. As I say, his book, Moral Ambition, is available now, and I really recommend it. That is it from all of us for this week. Thanks as ever to our production team. On the News Agents, Natalie Inge, Michaela Walters, Mikey Baggs, Jess Williamson, Anna Georgievich, Lizzie Ward, Shane Fennelly and Arvin Baddowell. Our executive producer is Louis Dagenhart. Our editor is Tom Hughes. It's presented by Emily Eva Perron, Maitlis, John Obdurate-Sopel and me, Lewis Goodall.
41:56Lewis:Remember to tune in to my Sunday political show, Sunday with Lewis Goodall on LBC from 10 this weekend for the best interviews and analysis. We'll be back on Monday. Who knows? Maybe with the soon to be announced fourth news agent, Robert Jenrick. Now, there's an affection they didn't see coming. Have a lovely weekend. This has been a Global Player original production.
From the publisher
Just a few months ago, historian and author Rutger Bregman found himself at the centre of a very British controversy. He had been asked to deliver a BBC Reith lecture. His theme was the decadence of the political elite and in his lecture, he made a throw away line about President Trump. But when the lecture was broadcast, that critical line had been taken out. What followed was a row about censorship, media power and truth.
This Friday, Rutger Bregman joins Lewis in the studio to talk about that controversy, why broadcasters must stand up to Trump, and our moral obligations in a divisive political society.
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/