Trump-Zelenskyy: another showdown?

0:28You know what quality feels like. this is a global player original podcast this war in ukraine's been going on a really long time now i mean uh three plus years um hugely impacted the ukrainians who suffered hugely but it's also impacted europe it's impacted every single family and community in the united kingdom and so everybody wants it to end um not least the ukrainians but we've got to get this right We've got to make sure there is peace, that it is lasting peace and that it is fair and that it is just. And that's why I'm travelling to Washington with other European leaders to discuss this face to face with President Trump and President Zlensky.

1:15Because it's in everyone's interests, it's in the UK's interests that we get this right. That's the Prime Minister Keir Starmer en route to Washington, to that extraordinary, unprecedented meeting, gathering of leaders acting as bodyguards, a phalanx around President Zelensky. And the key bit there was we've got to get this right. What is clearly going through European leaders' minds is that, yes, Trump wants peace, but he wants peace at almost any cost. Keir Starmer also says that any deal has to be fair and just. But given what Donald Trump has posted on Truth Social in the past few hours about Ukraine never joining NATO and Crimea never going back to Ukraine, is that possible?

2:07Welcome to the News Agents.

2:12The News Agents. It's John. It's Lewis. And if you're a follower of flight radar, you'll probably see there are a few more planes in the sky heading towards the United States of America right now than would have been the case given normal aircraft schedule. I've told you to stay off the Internet. I know. Well, that's what happens. I can't help myself. And so you've got the Italian prime minister, the French president, the German chancellor, the British prime minister, the NATO secretary general. And on and on it goes, all heading to D.C. for what is probably the most momentous and consequential meeting that has taken place there in many a year.

2:55And it's all come together in the past 24 hours or so. Again, unprecedented in what's going on. And this is obviously a very fast moving situation. And so we'll know more by this evening, our time. We're going to do another show then. So this show will be a bit shorter than usual because we are in something of a holding pattern until then. But even compared to when we spoke last night, we've learned more. We've had those true social comments, as you say, John, from Trump, which are very important. We were speculating yesterday that Putin seemed to have scored significant wins in Anchorage by basically once again moving Trump far closer to his positions.

3:36And indeed, from what we saw with Trump last night, saying that Ukraine needs to forget about ever getting Crimea back. It needs to accept that it's never going to be a member of NATO. At a stroke, those are two of the key negotiating positions that Putin has had all along, already apparently seeded before these discussions have even begun. And so it's clear, I think, that Putin was, we said yesterday, Putin has been asking for a lot. And he was partly asking for a lot, cognizant of the fact that he was unlikely to get it. Because he doesn't want, for all of the talk and all the bluster, he doesn't want a ceasefire.

4:12He doesn't want a peace deal. And he is setting the bar so high, fully in the knowledge that it will be very difficult for Zelensky to accept. And then what does Trump say? Well, Zelensky is the problem. Zelensky is the impediment to peace. And that is where I fear we may get to by the end of the day. Yeah. You know, when the meeting broke up in Alaska, I tried to write a column about what we'd learned. And it was very difficult because actually we'd learned very little. The news conference with no questions that Putin and Trump gave didn't tell us that much. He did a Fox interview afterwards.

4:41But gradually over the course of the weekend, we have learned more. And it is undoubtedly the Alaska pivot that Trump went there talking about the need for a ceasefire and the possibility of severe sanctions. And both those things had gone. And now overnight, we learn from his post on Truth Social that in Trump's mind, that Crimea is never going back and Ukraine will never be able to join NATO as part of that. And you just think, well, more and more of Vladimir Putin's talking points are now official US policy. And you can see why all those European leaders decided, shit, I better get on a plane if we're going to kind of halt this, you know, drifting even further in Moscow's direction.

5:29We better get out to D.C. now. So there's been a lobby briefing at Westminster for the journalists covering, you know, Starmer. And apparently, you know, Sirkir Starmer said he stands by his commitment to Ukraine retaining an irreversible path to joining NATO after what President Trump has said. So there is a real conflict, a real kind of difference in viewpoint from the Europeans and the Americans over the way forward on this. And do I think that Trump will kind of seed ground under pressure? I find it very hard to believe because he'll look weak. I think part of the reason that he was kind of going on so much on Truth Social was he was pissed off that he was getting such a lousy press for the summit and that he'd given too much.

6:19And, you know, Trump's trying to sound tough at the same time as giving Vladimir Putin everything. And it's a very hard thing to walk that line. I think the most worrying thing from the Ukrainian European point of view of what Trump said in his post was this. He said President Zelensky, Ukraine can end the war with Russia almost immediately if he wants to, or he can continue to fight. And that is exactly the war of words. And that has been the battle that has been being fought for the last three or four months, right? Between the two sides as to which one could convince Trump that it is the other side, not themselves, who is the impediment to peace.

6:53and as we were saying yesterday they've the ukrainians have been winning that war you know they've been winning that that war for donald trump's mind and for his perspective of what's happening because he himself has said and repeatedly said that he's frustrated with putin for talking warmly to him and then switching on the television and finding out that yet another ukrainian city has been bombed and we should say that actually even in the last 24 hours something Zelensky has been talking about today. At least 10 people have been killed overnight in Ukraine, including a child in different regions of Ukraine.

7:26So this is the absurdity, you know, for all of the talk of peace. And this is what I imagine must be so deeply, darkly difficult for Zelensky. We've got Trump, who once again, the game has reset. He once again seems to now believe that it is Zelensky and Ukraine that is the problem. But of course, it is Zelensky and Ukraine who have offered an immediate ceasefire. And it is Putin who literally overnight continues to rain bombs and drones and rockets onto Ukrainian cities, killing Ukrainian civilians. There is another part of this, which is so shallow, superficial, and yet matters so much that I think this kind of underscores just where we are, the febrile nature of this, the capriciousness of this.

8:14and it is the debate that is going on now, serious debate, about what Volodymyr Zelensky is going to be wearing when he goes into the White House. And you talked last night on the pod we recorded, Lewis, about how extraordinary it is that Donald Trump is the person who is bringing all these world leaders together. It is him that everyone is coming together for. And part of that discussion, because it does matter, is what Zelensky is going to be wearing because it clearly irked J.D. Vance, who we now know will be at the meeting again at the White House. Uh-oh. Yeah, tin hats on, take cover, this could get ugly.

8:56But you'd have thought his little sojourn in the Cotswolds might have calmed him down a little bit. No, it seems not. It seems not. So J.D. Vance and Trump will be holding a bilateral, without the other European leaders there, with Zelensky. and you know and the fact that it is a serious subject of debate does he wear a suit does he go in military fatigues does he go in something in between which apparently he wore when he was at NATO which is not quite a suit but it's not quite fatigues either and you just think oh this is bollocks this is this is too important to be left to whether he's wearing as one outfit or another And yet with Donald Trump, that stuff does matter.

9:36It sets the mood and it sets the tone and it has real consequences. And of course, we've got to remember is today is about it's even more than Ukraine. Ukraine is obviously important. It's been at the centre of this horrendous war for three years, for 10 years. What this is really about, and that is what is betrayed by Starmer's presence and Macron's presence and Mercer's presence and all the rest. It is about the future security of our continent, because we know that the truth about this war is this is the thing I think Trump certainly doesn't get. But the truth about this war is that Ukraine has been doing our dirty work for a long time now.

10:10You know, the truth is, is that it is probably and this sounds a really hard thing to say. It is probably in Europe's strategic interest for Ukraine to continue to fight this war, basically for us, rather than there to be a bad peace deal. What do I mean by that? Well, because if there's a bad peace deal, which basically involves the complete transfer of land, including parts of Donetsk, as you were saying, John, yesterday, are heavily fortified and basically not just the front line of Ukraine, but the front line for Europe. If Russia takes control of all of that, if it has a pathway to a new invasion of Ukraine within 18 months or 24 months or 36 months or whatever it is, if it's able to move some of those troops that are down there now to the rest of Europe, then you can see.

10:57And top military strategists and diplomats are, believe me, so deeply concerned about this that you can easily see a pathway to a Russia which is now armed to the teeth, which is turned its economy to a full time war siege economy to decide to try and test European resolve and defences elsewhere within the next five years. the truth is what ukraine has been doing is keeping russian aggression russian materiel russian armaments bogged down in its own country they've been fighting this war not just on their behalf but on our behalf effectively that has been one of the reasons why we have tried to arm them it hasn't been out of the goodness of our hearts yeah there's been some solidarity there but it's been about our strategic interest so if trump imposes or tries to impose a putin inspired bad peace that is catastrophic i mean it's genuinely potentially catastrophic not just for ukraine who could be consumed again relatively quickly but for all of us so that's what's at stake today and that is what starma et al have to convince trump of when they are at the white house i don't think that is going to be an easy job there is another phrase that has come up in the past few days which i find so troubling which is this idea of land swaps there's going to have to be land swaps for peace what the f is a land swap it's not that russia is going to give ukraine any land it's a one-way swap it's a concession it's a ukraine can't ask for rostov on don in return exactly okay you can have this but we'll have that there is no land swap going on it is russia taking control of Ukrainian land.

12:36There is no swapping going on whatsoever. Russia is taking. Ukraine is giving. There is no swapping. Please, the Trump administration, can we stop using this phrase of there need to be swaps of land for peace? It's not that. And then on the other issue, which we talked about briefly yesterday which is about the ironclad security guarantee for Ukraine's future some kind of article 5 that's the NATO clause which says an attack on one is an attack on all but outside of NATO NATO has a command and control structure that if one country is attacked it can invoke article 5 there is then a process by which other countries will go and support i mean it's an organized way what happens this time if it's outside of nato does trump say yeah it's not really that serious an incursion i think i'll sit this one out you know how ironclad can it be without formal structures and i think that is again something that is really important today to be looking at the problem is is that putin knows like everyone else does that trump Trump doesn't stick to what he says.

13:57And I don't just mean that in a nefarious way that he lies, though. Obviously, he does lie. But also, he changes his mind all of the time. We saw that play out even in the last week. You know, I think it was on Tuesday or Wednesday, Trump was at some press conference and he was asked, what happens if Putin on Friday doesn't agree to a ceasefire? What happens if he doesn't accede to peace demands? Trump says there'll be very severe consequences. This is peace through strength. There's going to be really severe consequences. And he's asked, well, what are those consequences? I'm not going to tell you, but there will be really severe consequences.

14:2848 hours later, a week later, where are we? That talk has completely disappeared. So even if Trump comes along, and don't get me wrong, it is a movement in their position to start talking about security guarantees. If Trump comes along and says these are going to be ironclad, there's nothing ironclad about anything that Donald Trump says, about anything, at any time, anywhere. And so it isn't as if it was a set of guarantees which were being issued by a normal American president. And Putin knows that and the Ukrainians know that. So for the Ukrainians to accede to demands for, say, territorial loss on the basis of a return for security guarantees from an American president, maybe you could imagine that might be worth it under an American president, your average American president, but not this one.

15:16We'll be back with more in just a moment.

15:24This is Becca and Tanya from Scrubbing In with Becca Tilly and Tanya Rad. Becca, can I ask you a question? How do I convince myself I need something before I buy it? Oh, so we're doing that today. Well, I'll be shopping online and suddenly I'm like, well, technically this counts as self-care. You're definitely not alone there. That's why Klarna stands out. It's about smarter tools that help you feel more confident with your money. Klarna brings payments, cashback, and money management together in one place with flexible ways to pay. It helps you make smarter money moves without the stress. That's the goal, right?

16:00Having tools that make your money work with you. Download the Klarna app today or visit Klarna.com to learn more. California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California finance law license. NMLS number 1353190. Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms, and conditions apply. this is the news agents as well as being on flight radar lewis i also went on to oh i also went on to truth social this morning you know the stuff you were talking about donald trump and the truth and i was looking for stuff on ukraine but he's posted something on mail-in ballots he said that no other country in the world now has mail-in ballots he said what what do you mean you know other country in the world now has mail-in ballots because he's arguing they should be banned in america well of course we we have mail-in ballots we can have a postal vote in this country it's stuff that he puts up and says that is demonstrably untrue and that is why you've got to have a degree of caution and wariness and suspicion about anything and everything he says and you know donald trump is it was said of a british politician in the 1960s you can't believe a word he says and you can't ignore a word he says And I think that Donald Trump sort of fits in to that category of figure that he's not trustworthy, but you can't ignore him either.

17:27No, and it is impossible to. And the reason for that is continued European weakness. Even if we want to look, let's be honest, if Europe was strong enough, if we had the military capability, if we had the hardware, if we had the capacity, if we had the soldiers, if we had a joint command structure. Hey, no, who knows, even a European army, something that has been much decried over the years, we wouldn't need to be doing this. The European leaders going over there today, in one sense, it's remarkable. In one sense, it's an extraordinary act of solidarity. In another sense, it is a clear admission of deep European frailty, which is not just born of this set of leaders, but born of a generation of leaders.

18:03This is one of the absurdities, by the way, of the Russian talking points where they say, oh, NATO has moved eastwards. It was an act of aggression. Really? Because what actually happened after the fall of the Cold War is we all decreased our defence spending. We enjoyed the peace dividend. If it had been about European expansion or EU or NATO expansion into Russian territory or about military incursion, do you think we would really have allowed our defences to decline in the way that they have? What today is about is about really a real admission that the truth is in Europe, we still need the Americans.

18:36They're all having to go and kiss at the feet of the king because we know and he knows and Putin knows, most importantly, that when it comes to it, we do not have the ability to defend ourselves against Russia. And that is inexcusable, really. That is a terrible admission. Yes, we've relied on the Americans for a long time, but we knew Trump was coming back. We have had time. The truth is that European leaders have not been willing to say to their populations, this is going to be necessary and that is going to involve some sacrifice. And today, as much as anything, therefore, is an admission that Europe and a generation of European leaders have failed because as a result of their failure, we are now relying on a man as quixotic and as random and as nefarious as Donald Trump.

19:23and against that you've got Vladimir Putin who is as clear-minded as determined as ever he was that the rebuilding of the Russian Empire must happen that the greatest disaster was the breakup of the Soviet Union that all those countries choosing their own path their independence embrace of democratic values of Western ideas and the European Union that must be reversed should Zelensky and the European leaders be deeply deeply concerned about today's meeting bloody right they should be we'll be back just after this

20:10best thing that's ever happened to you financially go easy sold my car on carvana amazing offer really I hit 200 on the scratcher did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check? No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once. Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery, except you always win. Not like the lottery at all, actually. Exactly. Inexplicably good. Offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. This is Becca and Tanya from Scrubbing In with Becca Tilly and Tanya Rad. Becca, can I ask you a question? How do I convince myself I need something before I buy it?

20:52Oh, so we're doing that today. Well, I'll be shopping online and suddenly I'm like, well, technically this counts as self-care. You're definitely not alone there. That's why Klarna stands out. It's about smarter tools that help you feel more confident with your money. Klarna brings payments, cashback and money management together in one place with flexible ways to pay. It helps you make smarter money moves without the stress. That's the goal, right? Having tools that make your money work with you. Download the Klarna app today or visit Klarna.com to learn more. California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California finance law license.

21:29NMLS number 1353190. Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms, and conditions apply. This is the News Agents. So before we go, as Lewis said, we're going to be back later on today. It's two o 'clock in the afternoon in London. So sort of nine in the morning in Washington, D.C. It's going to be a few hours yet before European leaders go to the White House. I mean, Keir Starmer, as we're speaking now, is still in the air. And then at lunchtime, Washington time, six o 'clock in the evening, our time, President Trump meets Zelensky at the White House. they hold a bilateral and then trump later on will greet the european leaders there'll be a family photo and then the multilateral meeting between trump and the european leaders so probably not about eight o 'clock this evening will we kind of start getting any kind of readouts on any of this and obviously the question that everyone will be wondering is whether there's going to be a repeat of last time of whether there is more aggression of how zelensky handles it and how european leaders handle it afterwards can't really remember anything quite like this with such unpredictability with such high stakes we will be monitoring it and we'll bring you an episode late this evening that will be in your feeds either late tonight if you've got a bit of insomnia or you can wake up to tomorrow morning we'll see you then bye-bye bye-bye this is a global player original podcast

23:06Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. It was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feast. An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.