In short
Podcast Summary: The News Agents - "Was Nigel Farage a Racist Schoolboy?"
Episode Overview In this episode, the hosts Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, and Lewis Goodall discuss the resurfacing allegations against Nigel Farage regarding racist comments made during his teenage years at Dulwich College. The episode features insights from journalist Michael Crick, who has previously reported on Farage's past behavior and character.
Key Topics Discussed
- Allegations Against Nigel Farage:
- Claims surfaced that Farage made anti-Semitic remarks and engaged in racist behavior as a teenager.
- Specific allegations include singing offensive songs and making derogatory comments directed at Jewish classmates.
- Political Reactions:
- Keir Starmer, the opposition leader, called for Farage to address the allegations publicly.
- The UK Prime Minister's spokesperson characterized the claims as "disturbing" and urged Farage for an explanation.
Detailed Breakdown
Allegations and Historical Context
- The Guardian's Reporting:
- The Guardian has compiled testimonies from former classmates claiming Farage made remarks such as “Hitler was right” and “gassed them.”
- These reports build upon earlier work by Michael Crick, who documented similar allegations over a decade ago.
- Michael Crick's Insights:
- Crick shared his experiences investigating Farage’s past, noting that several teachers at Dulwich College had described Farage as "unsuitable" for leadership roles due to his behavior.
- His research revealed conflicting testimonies, with some peers recalling Farage as provocative but not overtly racist, while others firmly labeled him as anti-Semitic.
Farage's Response to the Allegations
- Denial of Claims:
- Farage has denied the allegations, calling them “without foundation” and questioning the accuracy of memories from long ago.
- His more recent responses have been more adamant compared to earlier interviews where he acknowledged some provocative behavior.
- Reactions from the Public and Media:
- The hosts discuss whether the public would care about Farage's past if they perceive him as a right-wing leader aligned with their views.
- They ponder the implications of Farage's past on his current political standing and potential future as a leader.
The Nature of Racism and Political Implications
- Discussion on Racism:
- The hosts explore the complexities of defining racism and how Farage’s adolescent behavior might reflect his current political ideology.
- They question whether past behavior should shield individuals from political scrutiny, citing parallels with other political figures.
- Impact on Reform UK Party:
- The discussion includes the potential consequences of these allegations for Farage's party, Reform UK, as they prepare for upcoming elections.
- The possibility of tactical voting against Farage in elections is raised, suggesting that public perception of racism could sway voter behavior.
Personal Reflections
- Character Development:
- Crick reflects on how childhood behaviors often foreshadow adult character, suggesting that many traits displayed by Farage today were evident during his school years.
- The Question of Change:
- The hosts analyze whether Farage has evolved from his past statements or if his rhetoric remains consistent with his earlier viewpoints.
- The episode concludes with a contemplation of how much weight should be given to a politician’s past versus their present actions and statements.
Key Takeaways
- Historical Context Matters: Understanding a politician's past can offer insights into their current beliefs and behaviors.
- The Complexity of Racism: Definitions of racism can vary, and context plays a critical role in how past actions are interpreted.
- Public Perception: Allegations of racism can significantly impact political fortunes, especially in a polarized environment.
- Tactical Voting: Voter behavior may shift as new information about candidates emerges, potentially affecting their election outcomes.
Final Thoughts The episode delves deeply into the intersections of personal history, public perception, and the implications for political leadership. The discussion raises important questions about accountability for past actions and the evolving nature of political discourse in the UK.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02Nigel Farage:This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:05Michael Crick:Last week his leader said he didn't have time, didn't have time to condemn the racist comments of his fellow MP for Runcourt. He also said he didn't have time to condemn his party calling children in care evil. He didn't have time. I wonder if you can ask his leader next door to him whether he's got time for his explanation for the stories in today's papers.
0:26Nigel Farage:That is Keir Starmer calling on the Reform UK leader Nigel Farage to explain accusations made by fellow students that he displayed racist behaviour when he was at school as a teenager. This is a story that The Guardian has been carrying in the last few days. And Keir Starmer is asking Farage to explain what happened. Farage has denied all those allegations.
0:55Michael Crick:More than a dozen former classmates claim that Farage made repeated remarks as a schoolboy, such as Hitler was right and gassed them, directing them at Jewish pupils. What should we make of this story? Does it prove anything about Farage now? And does it matter what he said then, if he said it at all? Welcome to The News Agents.
1:21Michael Crick:The News Agents.
1:22Nigel Farage:It's Emily.
1:23Michael Crick:It's Lewis.
1:24Nigel Farage:And on today's episode, we're going to try and get to the bottom of three things. Namely, what did Farage say at school in Dulwich when he was a late teenager? What does he admit to saying? What does he deny having said? And does it make any difference to how people see the reform leader now? Now, if he was racist, if he was anti-Semitic, then is he still now? And does the electorate mind if he is? Yeah.
1:58Michael Crick:So this, as we were saying, is fresh reports in The Guardian, which in fairness, as we're going to discuss, actually build on reports and allegations that have been around for over a decade now. But in the last few days, The Guardian have put together a special report, which suggests and claim that while Farage was at the public school, fee-paying school, Dulwich College in south-east London, they have got more than a dozen former classmates who have claimed that Farage, as I say, has made repeated remarks such as Hitler was right, gassed them, directed those comments at Jewish pupils, other minority students, often sang a school group song including sirs like Will gas all the p***s and Will gas all the a**s.
2:40Michael Crick:Farage has strongly denied the allegations. He's called them entirely without foundation and questioned the relevance and indeed the memories of incidents from very, very long ago. But in the wake of that, it hasn't stopped. Number 10, drawing sharp political criticism of the comments with the prime minister spokesperson, no less, saying that those claims are disturbing and urging Farage to address them publicly.
3:09Nigel Farage:And when I came across those comments in The Guardian piece this week, it triggered a sort of muscle memory for me because I'd remembered hearing them before. And the reason I'd heard them before is because, frankly, a lot of them come from the work of Michael Crick, an old colleague of mine at Newsnight. He's done the biography of Nigel Farage in a book called One Party After Another. And he made a piece for Channel 4, which, as Lewis said, is over a decade old. It was made in 2013, where he went to Dulwich College. He talked to teachers. He talked to pupils at the time. He had evidence of letters sent at that time, people who remembered and had taught and had been at school with Nigel Farage.
3:49Nigel Farage:And so we thought we should ask Michael Crick to talk to us about his original reporting and also to reflect on the difference in Farage's own attitude. to the allegations that were made at the time and how he's responded right now.
4:13Nigel Farage:Well, joining us now is the broadcaster and writer, Michael Crick. We used to work together many moons ago at Newsnight and then you left us for Channel 4. And the reason we want to talk to you today, Michael, is because so much of the story that we've been talking about today is familiar from your own work, both in the book you wrote about Farage and in the original broadcast, I think took us back to 2013-14 for Channel 4, where you describe in a lot of detail the scenes at Dulwich College and the memories of teachers, the deputy headmaster at Dulwich College when Farage was there.
4:51Michael Crick:That's right. It was back in 2013. And I love looking in people's distant pasts because you get sort of clues as to their character now. and it didn't take many calls to find people who remembered Farage as anti-Semitic. And then I had a moment of luck because a guy called Bob Jope, who was an English teacher at Dulwich College, had kept this letter from one of the other English teachers, a woman called Chloe Deakin, to the high master, the headmaster, called the master at Dulwich College, about how Farage was utterly unsuitable to be a prefect.
5:27Nigel Farage:And he did get made a prefect.
5:29Michael Crick:He did. And I rushed down to Torquay, it was, where Bob Joke lived. And he got the letter out and we filmed it and everything. And it went off for about five pages about how Farage was a sort of neo-Nazi and a fascist and all of that. And then I managed to get the other side of the argument. The deputy head explained, well, you know, Farage was, you know, we thought a lot of it was just being provocative and so on. and then I put the film together and I doorstep Farage, I think on the day of transmission and he was, he actually came out with a pretty equivocal response, were we about to hear it?
6:05Michael Crick:Yeah. Would you like to see the letter? I've seen it before. Have you? Well not for 30 years. Yes of course I said some ridiculous things about that. Racist things? Not necessarily racist things Not necessarily racist. Well it depends how you define it, you see I mean you've got to remember that ever since 1968 up until the last couple of years we've not been able in this country intelligently to discuss immigration, to discuss integration. It's all been a buried subject and that's happened through academia, it's happened through politics and the media. But I mean that letter, for instance it cites an example of you taunting someone in class and having to be excluded by implication on racial grounds.
6:41Michael Crick:I was excluded from class dozens of times over the years for all sorts of reasons. But for racist comments? No, no, no, I don't accept that. I mean, it's not just that letter. Fellow pupils remember you making racist comments. Well, I might have wound some of them up too. But all through... So you made racist comments to wind people up? All through the 1970s. Did you find that, at the time, did you find that a very satisfactory explanation, Michael? No, and it wasn't a very good interview by me. I should have been a lot harder on him towards the end of that. But it's a softer response, a more equivocal response than the one that he's given this week.
7:13Michael Crick:Yes. Where he adamantly says he was never racist and never said anything racist or anti-Semitic. And this is all, you know, and there's a statement put out by the Reform UK and, you know, all about how there's no corroboration and so on. Whereas I think Farage really having said that and that has been repeated in newspapers and in my book, he should have gone along the same lines, frankly, now. I mean, personally, I mean, I think I might if I was Farage, I might have actually said, look, I did say some awful things at school because I do terrible things as a school boy. and I deeply apologise if I offended people and I'm sorry about that, but that's not what I am today.
7:54Michael Crick:A lot of the public would probably accept that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is interesting. I mean, what you just said is exactly what I thought. The difference in how he's responded to you then and now, I think it's quite telling about his evolution as a politician. Well, there are two sides to Farage and that was the sort of gentler side and I think what we've seen this week is the nasty side and he will have felt cornered this week and he might be feeling crikey. This could cause quite a lot of damage. Even though, actually, what the Guardian, as we've said, even though that which the Guardian has reported is basically what you reported over a decade ago.
8:29Michael Crick:I know, but I mean, Farage was just, he wasn't even an MP then. He was leader of a rising party that was winning by-elections. He hadn't even got anybody into Parliament at that stage. The stakes are far higher. And although, you know, how many Jewish people are there in this country three or four hundred thousand well he may have trouble getting many votes from them he may get trouble have trouble getting donations from jewish donors but then there will be a much wider community you think that some of the stuff that they've heard this week and some of the taunting and some of the you know very vivid memories from jewish boys at dulwich college um i mean if you if you've had that happen to you it will have stuck in your brain for the rest of your life I mean, things that taunted me about at school were not, I'm not Jewish, but there would be lots of banter at school.
9:18Michael Crick:People would say horrible things. But if you are Jewish and Farage is saying things about you being gassed and Hitler being right and so on and singing this awful song, Gas Em All, that will have stuck in your brain forever. And that's why I think this evidence is so powerful and that it's foolish of Farage and his party to try and pretend that people's memories are at fault. So you don't believe it? No, you didn't deny that, Michael,
9:41Nigel Farage:because he said that he didn't even know the words to the song. There is no question in your mind that he did say those things and he did repeat those lyrics and he did taunt.
9:51Michael Crick:There is no doubt. And when I came to write the book, there was a doubt when I started off because I was worried that half the people you spoke to from Dulwich remembered horrible stuff like this. But the other half said, no, I don't remember anything like that. He was very political and he was on the right and he was provocative, but I don't remember him ever being racist or anti-Semitic. And they also pointed out that one of his best friends at school was a black boy. And I thought, well, I want to get to the bottom of this. I want to be fair to Farage. And so I set out, I put an absurd amount of work into it, along with my former wife, Margaret, who was helping me with the research.
10:30Michael Crick:And this was all during Covid, so it was quite difficult to do. We tracked down about 60 or 70 boys. We got the lists of the pupils at Dulwich College. and systematically went through them. And, of course, one person led to another. And by the end of it, I was convinced that Farage had been horribly anti-Semitic at Dulwich, that it was much more less clear on the question of racism against Asians and black people. And Dulwich was interesting because there weren't actually that many boys, Jewish boys. I was surprised how few there were. There weren't that many. And in a way, that must have made it even worse for them.
11:06Michael Crick:I mean, I went to a school very similar to Dulwich in Manchester, Manchester Grammar School, where it was about 20 % Jewish. You would never have got away with that at my school. But at Dulwich, a lot of few Jewish boys, and I think actually what happened is some of the staff are responsible for this, for not cracking down on it, and not cracking down when Farage and his mates were singing horrible songs on the coach. You've said no doubt.
11:30Nigel Farage:We just have to give you the spokesperson for reform who said they've denied him ever being racist and anti-Semitic at school, questioned why some of those who had given testimony had not made the claims before. Clearly, they had made the claims before to you over a decade ago. And they then say there is no primary evidence, it's one person's word against another.
11:54Michael Crick:Well, first of all, there is primary evidence in the letter that was sent from the schoolteacher Chloe Deakin to the headmaster of Dulwich College, complaining about the fact he'd been made a prefect. And it's not one person's word against another. It's about a dozen people's word against another. And many of those are people who have good reason to remember vividly the taunts that Farage made because they are Jewish. And I think that if you are yourself Jewish, you will remember that much more vividly than if you're not. And we'll be back with Michael in just a minute.
12:32Michael Crick:news you can trust and the conversations that matter with award-winning journalists at the
12:37Nigel Farage:heart of the stories from the uk and around the world breaking news here in edinburgh i'm simon my american week is next reporting from the heart of cardiff discover how today's story affects your life listen on our free global player app or the new lbc app lbc leading britain's
12:55Michael Crick:conversation
13:03Michael Crick:The Telegraph has said, in their write-up to this, they've said that what this is basically doing is holding a child to not only adult standards, but the standards of today, and that's fundamentally unfair. What do you make of that argument, Michael? Well, I think there's something in that. It depends what age we're talking about. It seems to me that this went on from a period from about 13, age 13, to, certainly into the sixth form, when Farage would have been, what, 16, 17, 18.
13:30Nigel Farage:Because you don't get made a prefect until you're in your last years.
13:33Michael Crick:And so I would accept that if somebody said something horrible like that at 13, it's less serious than if they carried on saying it. After all, we're about to give the vote in this country to people of 16 and 17. I think that's a foolish idea, but nonetheless, that is to happen. And I do think he is certainly much more responsible for what he said when he was 16 and 17 and 18 than he was when he was perhaps 13. So I don't fully hold the telegraph argument. I think one of the fascinating things about Farage at Dulwich College, I mean, I've written quite a few biographies and I've done a lot of television profiles, and I don't think I know of a case where the ingredients of the later man or woman are in their school days.
14:19Michael Crick:Nearly, you know, so much of the Farage we see today is the Farage we saw at Dulles College. Now, I'm not saying that Farage is anti-Semitic or racist today. I think that's a complicated discussion to have. But if you look at other aspects of his character, the boy who loves being the centre of attention, who loves being provocative, who loves being divisive, who dresses smartly... He's a politician, isn't he? I mean, many politicians have those characteristics. Indeed, he's a political creature. You know, at school, you don't get that many political creatures. He was a political creature, though.
14:49Michael Crick:But just go back, because you said something really interesting,
14:50Nigel Farage:which is you're not saying that he's racist or anti-Semitic today, which is a discussion we should have. Well, let's have that. Because in a way, that is the relevance, isn't it? The question we're asking is whether the seeds of a racist or an anti-Semite were sown at Dulwich College, which remain today. Now, there are two possibilities, that he wasn't then and he isn't now, or that he was then and he still is now, or that he was then but somehow he isn't now.
15:18Michael Crick:Well, I think it's even more complicated than that. But I agree. The seeds of his politics were at Dulwich. And he was particularly impressed by two visiting speakers, Enoch Powell and Keith Joseph. He's clearly on the right. There's no question about that. And certainly his nationalism began at Dulwich College. And actually, I've been reflecting over the last few days. It would be interesting to know, how did Farage learn that song, Gassamol? Who did he learn it from? Was it other boys at Dulwich College? Or was it someone outside? Or was it somewhere in his family background? And that is the next stage, I suppose, for somebody to research.
15:54Michael Crick:Now, in terms of the Farage today, I don't think you can say in any way whatsoever that he's anti-Semitic today. He is a huge supporter of Israel. There's no evidence for it that I've seen anywhere. No. And I spoke to lots of people who fell out with Farage, hated him, but were close to him in UKIP. And so it would have been their opportunity for them to say, and by the way, he was a terrible racist. I remember him saying this, but none of them did. And indeed, in most cases, I specifically asked them whether they remembered anything about Farage being racist. And they would say he was a terrible bully or he was a terrible this or that, terribly authoritarian or, you know, he was really nasty.
16:35Michael Crick:But none of his other critics from his adult life would say that he was a racist. The other thing I would say is that rather like Enoch Powell, I don't think Enoch Powell was a racist personally, although I know a lot of people do. But I would say that both Enoch Powell and Nigel Farage have been guilty of pandering to people who are racist. In other words, they don't mind them voting for their party. What's the difference? Well, yeah, morally, morally, yeah, morally, you could. Yeah, I would argue that in some ways, actually pandering to racists is worse, is worse than being a racist. What I'm really saying is that...
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17:10Nigel Farage:Well, pandering also means encouraging, right? Doesn't it? I mean, if your language encourages... Legitimising it, sure. Legitimising and opening a door for people to think that's fine.
17:20Michael Crick:Yeah, I think that is reasonably good. Getting close to the truth, I sort of like to go away and look at the words again and think about it. And I think that that is a problem. But, you know, on the other hand, Faraj has always been... I mean, for instance, you know, him and Tommy Robinson. I mean, Tommy Robinson was one of the reasons, one of his successors, many successors as UKIP leader, Gerard Batten brought Tommy Robinson in as an advisor and that was the final straw for Farage and he left UKIP and then went off and founded. Because of the racism or because of the
17:51Nigel Farage:competitiveness?
17:52Michael Crick:Well he said because of the racism and I think that is true. I think that in terms of you know Farage having sort of well certainly he never says anything racist but he does at times pander to racism through some of the things he says and particular about migrants. And so it's a tricky area. It's a tricky area. But I mean, you know, he's also got black friends like he did at school. You know, Derek Chisora, for instance, the boxer is very close to Farage and so on. So it's... Farage has always argued, hasn't he? He's actually argued. I mean, listeners and viewers can make of this what they will.
18:29Michael Crick:He says that he has done more to defeat the Farage than any other politician in the country because he says that what he did in destroying or helping, he claims to have helped destroy the BNP, to have driven this sort of extremism from the right of politics and made what is the right of politics more acceptable and softer than it otherwise would have been.
18:48Nigel Farage:It doesn't seem to be particularly destroyed as we speak.
18:51Michael Crick:No, but I think the argument would be, the argument is, and I think there's some truth in this, that in that there was a period in the late noughties, in the early years of Farage's leadership of UKIP, where the BNP, amazingly, were getting twice as many votes as UKIP, even in places like Henley-on-Temps. And they did well in the European elections of 2009. In the European elections of 2009, what happened there, it was partly Farage's leadership, but it was also partly the accident of the MP's expenses affair. Suddenly, nobody wanted to vote for the Westminster Party's Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, who was the next option.
19:29Michael Crick:And they all voted for UKIP, ironically, because UKIP were the biggest expensive fiddlers of all in the European Parliament. And suddenly Farage then got a lot more seats than the BNP did. There was an internal civil war within the BNP. And suddenly UKIP emerged and the BNP partly and probably maybe even primarily because of its own internal problems. and Nick Griffin's disastrous appearance on Questions Time and so on went into decline. But, of course, since then, UKIP, Farage's various parties, UKIP and then Brexit and now Reform, have been the most serious party to the right of the Conservatives.
20:10Michael Crick:And there's no prospect of a party to the right of them really emerging. Whereas in Europe, parts of Europe, I think you can say there are right-wing parties that are to the right of where reform are now. And that Farage has acted, because of his extraordinary skills as a politician, has acted as a barrier, really, to preventing our politics going even more to the right.
20:37Nigel Farage:I guess what I'd say, though, Michael, is if, I mean, you call him a barrier, if what he's doing or what he would like to do if he ever led the country is enact policies which are essentially mass deportation policies of the kind that we've seen in America now, and some in his party have suggested that they would like to see that. That doesn't seem to me to be a barrier. That seems to me to be an encircling of the same policies.
21:02Michael Crick:It's all terribly complicated, isn't it, now that we have the two mainstream parties are frankly now pursuing policies that are pretty close to what Farage and his parties were advocating some years ago. So the whole of politics is shifting so rapidly.
21:21Nigel Farage:As Tommy Robinson told us this week, the overshadowed window is, what was it, decimated? The truth is Farage has been way more instrumental in that
21:29Michael Crick:than Tommy Robinson. Even now, even though Robinson is being legitimised perhaps to a disturbing extent, Farage has been the sort of driving factor behind that. But I suppose the question, Michael, is that to sort of go back almost to where we started, which is if someone's listening to this and basically just thinking, this is all very interesting. And yes, it clearly shows that, as we've known for a long time, that, you know, Farage has been, you know, on the right, on the radical right of British politics, you know, since an early age. He was an admirer of Enoch Powell, you know, long after he made the Rivers of Blood speech in 68, et cetera, et cetera.
21:59But ultimately, a schoolboy's school days,
22:03Michael Crick:does it tell us anything about the modern man? I mean, is he is he basically hiding something from us or is it actually a relatively little interest? And most people do embarrassing things. Well, his school days do tell us a lot about the modern man. But I think actually on the race and anti-Semitism point, it is not that helpful. It shows that Farage was anti-immigration in those days. It shows that he was a nationalist. It shows he was on the right. It shows he was a political creature, you know, like dressing smartly. so many features of his character you can trace back to Dulwich College but I think that after you know once he became an adult from his late 20s onwards I think there is certainly overt racism you cannot really find but you've got this whole troubling area which I think he does pander to racist for instance it would be interesting to know and I'm not aware of any occasions what what does Farage say to somebody in the street who comes out with a racist view Does he say, no, no, no, I'm sorry, I can't go along with that.
23:06Michael Crick:But it may be I'm being unfair to him there and I've never heard this happen and nobody else is recorded or whatever. But that is an interesting area to explore.
23:16Nigel Farage:Can I just follow up from Lewis's question with something that brings us to today? As you said at the beginning, the change in his own response is very noticeable now. And yet when you accosted him or found him on the street in 2013, that was a decade ago, that didn't do him any political harm.
23:39Michael Crick:So, I mean, it did. I mean, Channel 4 News, you know, never had a huge audience. We were always competing with you. I mean, I worked for both, but they were always competing. Minority pursuits. Minority. And I'm not sure that many people followed it up. or watch it. My question's slightly different though,
23:57Nigel Farage:which is if he was sort of fine to engage with it, the premise, you in 2013, and he's slamming the door shut on these accusations now, are there a lot of people in the country, I guess I'm asking, who simply don't really care if he is racist or if he is and Semitic? I mean, they'd still vote for him. Or don't care about his school days, anyway. Well, no, I think it's more than that. Would people not vote for him if they thought he was racist? I'm not sure that's true.
24:25Michael Crick:Well, there would be some people who wouldn't vote for him. And I think it would cause him some problems. But I think you're also right.
24:33Nigel Farage:You don't think it's built into the brand that, you know, walks like a duck, talks like a duck. You don't have to call it out.
24:36Michael Crick:There are some people who think he's not racist enough. I mean, there are plenty of people who would say that he's not sufficiently right wing. So he is what he is.
24:42Nigel Farage:In which case, that's my question. Why does he have to sort of distance himself from this report when actually a lot of people would say, oh, no, we understood what he was saying. He was just talking about migration or he was just talking common sense. where he was just saying it like it is.
24:55Michael Crick:I mean, it's fascinating that he and his party... I mean, I think you've probably got the two different sides to... I think, actually, way back in 2013, when I door-stacked him in the street, if I remember rightly, he sort of knew we were going to be there, and he had a bit of time to think about it. He's got a smile on his face. Yeah, and he thought through, I've got to relax here, I mustn't lose my temper or anything. And maybe the response this week was in the, you know, in a Ming Vars situation. I mean, they are the holders of the Ming Vars right now, but they know they've got three years, perhaps, before the next election, more than three years, and they cannot afford to put a foot wrong.
25:38Michael Crick:And maybe that is what caused the much more adamant response that I've never said anything like this and it's all, you know, fabricated by our enemies. But the contrast is very different. Yeah, I mean, Trump is an influence on the way he behaves. And that's a fascinating conversation, perhaps for another day. But as I say, I think I would have apologised, actually. But that would be a risk, too. Maybe that is only the kind of risk he could have taken 12 years ago.
26:06Nigel Farage:It's very 1990s, that sort of approach.
26:09Michael Crick:And, you know, with Downing Street within his grasp, I mean, personally, I don't think he'll get there. You don't? No, because I think Lewis has said something about this, but maybe not. I think the result of the Kefili by-election two or three weeks ago was fascinating because what happened there was all the other parties ganged up on reform. And, you know, clearly conservatives and certainly Labour people were willing to vote for Blide in a way that they never would have done in the past simply to stop Farage. And actually, the same thing clearly happened in the Runcorn by-election, where we were all expecting a decent majority and they only won by six in the end.
26:50Michael Crick:And that, of course, is how Farage was on a constituency level, blocked from becoming an MP back in 2015 when he was standing in South Thanet. And of course, there's rumours swirling around now that, you know, Labour might be tempted to bring in the alternative vote voting system before the end of this parliament. And that would then sort of institutionalise tactical voting. I think tactical voting, we keep going on about it and how it seems to get bigger with every election. I think it's going to be huge at the next election. And this is, I think, part of precisely the reason why he's responded with his fury, right?
27:24Michael Crick:Because they're trying to break through that threshold they seem reasonably stuck at, which is high. But, you know, they would like it to be high. 26, 27, 28. They want to get to 30 to 35. And this is exactly the sort of thing that could prevent them from doing that. I just thought finally, Michael, you spent a lot of time with Farah. I've spent quite a lot of time with him. I don't think quite as much as you. But, you know, you know him well and you've written a biography of him. I know you say you don't think he would become prime minister. Well, let's just imagine for a moment that he did become prime minister in whatever form, minority government or whatever.
27:51Michael Crick:How would you feel about that, knowing him as you do? I wouldn't be very comfortable about it. I think, I mean, we could end, well, there'd be all sorts of terrible policies. I mean, I'm actually quite right wing on immigration policies. But on other stuff like global warming, foreign aid, I think would be appalling from my point of view. I would also think it would be appalling. It would be utterly chaotic, utterly chaotic. I mean, Farage has never really run anything and he falls out with everybody. I mean, it would be like Trump won, you know, where everybody kept resigning every few months.
28:25Michael Crick:In a parliamentary system. Yeah. Because what Farage would love is a presidential system. Exactly. And he's actually said that he would have to rejig his government. So lots of ministers weren't members of parliament. Presumably they'd have to be in the Lords, which would cause a big hoo-ha as it is. But we've seen in these new councils, which are now controlled by reform, the number of people, A, that they're finding it's much more difficult to do what they thought, what they intended to do than they thought it would be. And indeed, we've seen a huge turnover in reform councillors, people resigning or defecting.
28:57Michael Crick:And of course, that's been the pattern with Farage's parties all along the line, way back to 25 years ago when they started getting people into the European Parliament, that a lot of them end up defecting, resigning, going to jail. And the same would happen here. Well, you've got the latest case with Nathan Gill, who I think is due to be sentenced tomorrow for accepting bribes from pro-Russians. So it would be utter chaos. And I think actually, in his mind, Farage loves the idea of being elected prime minister and living in number 10. But I think he actually is quietly terrified about what then happened.
29:36Michael Crick:what do you do next? You know, and they are doing a lot of work to sort of try and work policy out because policy's never been something that Farage has been that interested in. Indeed, there have been occasions in the past where he's admitted not to reading his own party's manifesto or knowing what was in it. But he's doing a lot more work on that. And of course, they've got think tanks going and they do these weekly press conferences now where they do a lot of policy stuff in between the questions from journalists about other issues. So I would be worried. And I thought the other thing is it would be a very authoritarian government.
30:13Michael Crick:At heart, he is a Stalinist. Didn't see that one. Does he deny that? Can we check that, team? Michael Croke. And an admirer of both Trump and Putin. Great to have you on. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming.
30:37Michael Crick:The News Agents.
30:39Nigel Farage:One of the questions that you kept coming back to, Lewis, was this idea of does childhood somehow insulate you from criticism?
30:49Michael Crick:Or a young person.
30:50Nigel Farage:Young person, yeah. And we went back through the sort of other, you know, political faux pas or, you know, racist slurs or misjudgments, whatever you want. And the interesting thing is some of them actually weren't childhood ones at all. I mean, I was trying to remember when Harry wore the Nazi uniform, because, you know, if you were the Telegraph, you might go, oh, well, you know, Farage might have been singing songs, but Harry wore a Nazi uniform. He was 20 when he did that. I don't think anyone's alleging that Harry, I mean, aside from the fact his wife, you know, is black and his children are mixed.
31:29Nigel Farage:He's definitely not a Nazi. I don't think he's an artist. I don't think he's racist. And then you've got the whole, the Trudeau one, which is really odd. Do you remember Justin Trudeau? Yeah, blackface. Not just once, but like many times.
31:41Michael Crick:I think into his late 20s, actually, like sort of as a graduate student. And did that stop him getting elected?
31:47Nigel Farage:No, it didn't.
31:47Michael Crick:I mean, it was very embarrassing for him. And I think, you know, politically damaging to some extent for him. Of course, he apologised profusely. And I think this is the, I think for me, this is the sort of interesting thing about this story. And I think that actually, I think the more problematic end of it, look, I think generally speaking, stuff that people do, especially in their school days and even into their early sort of adolescence, I think generally speaking, you know, politicians are allowed to do stupid things, just like everybody else is allowed to do stupid things, even if actually potentially really quite grossly offensive things.
32:20Michael Crick:It's worth talking about. It's worth pointing it out. It's worth asking those people about it. But I don't think it's some sort of inherent kind of prohibition from office. I think that what's interesting about this episode is, as we've been saying, how Farage has reacted to it. Because in 2013, he sort of takes it on the chin. He provides another explanation, which is one I've just basically said, which is like, look, did I do some stupid things that were very provocative? Yes. Do I accept it's racist? Well, it depends how you define it. And I think actually that is, for a lot of people, that will chime with a lot of people, actually.
32:52Michael Crick:I think the problem here...
32:53Nigel Farage:Actually, he did deny singing a song that was all about gassing Jews because he said, how could I possibly have done that? I didn't even know the words. Yes, there were elements of it, yes. Right? I mean, so, yeah, there was also a kind of laughing off of stuff which Michael Crick's just told us he doesn't believe to be true.
33:10Michael Crick:Yes, indeed so. But nonetheless, I think that the reaction to now basically suggests all of this is a smear, even though in the past he's addressed these allegations in a very different way, which would indicate perhaps it is not a smear. I think is is quite troubling because I just think that there are ways that he could address this in a common sense, matter of fact way that, you know, actually would resonate with quite a lot of people and most people would accept.
33:34Nigel Farage:I think the other thing is, to Michael's point, which is that we're now in Ming-Va's territory. That suggests very, very boring politics for the next three years, if that's true. And why I say that is because the sort of USP of reform has always been, oh, we say it like it is. We just say what normal people are thinking. You know, it might sound racist or it might not. You know, it might be about immigration or it might not. I mean, Farage has always known with a sort of brilliance how to walk the line between something that can sound totally dog whistle to the people who want to hear the dog whistle and just stays on the right side of legal to the ones who might be looking for trouble.
34:17Nigel Farage:If he's now in a place where he's slapping everything down, and I possibly mean slap, double P, slapping everything down, then it suggests that they are going to be possibly more timid in their language in the coming months and years. And certainly in the way that they're sort of dealing with the electorate because they think that the prize is within sight and they don't want it all to come crashing the ground. And I wonder if that fundamentally changes the sort of character or the nature of the party itself. Perhaps.
34:49Michael Crick:And I mean, it's worth saying as well. I mean, you know, Michael said there, I think he said at one stage that, you know, Farage himself doesn't say racist things. I mean, I think that some people would contest that. I mean, he certainly said things. He's certainly been accused in as an adult, as a political player many times of racism by his political opponents or at least indulging in racist rhetoric. I mean, one can think of, you know, he's spoken before about the idea of fifth columnists in Britain. He's talked about Muslim men or Muslims having sort of split loyalties. He's talked about sort of being worried about if a group of Romanian men move next door, what might happen?
35:22Nigel Farage:And again, the whole the whole Brexit advert where he was standing breaking point, breaking point, which was, you know, the idea of flooding. Now, he would say, obviously, this is just about immigration. But you choose your images when you talk about immigration. And he chose him. Exactly.
35:38Michael Crick:So one answer to why there may be a difference between, say, Trudeau or Prince Harry and Farage is, of course, that Trudeau and Prince Harry have not been accused in later life as adults and political players, insofar as someone like Harry is, of engaging in, you know, racist rhetoric or whatever it is. whereas Farage has been. Now, whether you think that's fair or not, obviously you can make your own judgment. But it does, I think, if nothing else, show the extent to which, you know, he has changed as a political player because precisely the reason that you say, Emily, you know, in 2013, it was all a bit of a sort of oddity.
36:11Michael Crick:It was a bit of a joke. It was a bit of a joke almost. You know, he almost had a sort of smile on his face. Now, you know, he was an esoteric, still pretty fringe figure at that time, as Mike was saying. Now he is leading in the polls and if the polls were to be realised, you know, could be next, could potentially be the next prime minister. So if he doesn't like this sort of scrutiny, well, as we get closer, inching closer to the next election, it's only going to become more intense.
36:32Nigel Farage:You say that, but obviously at the moment it's The Guardian reporting it and no one else is really picking it up. There is an asymmetry, as we so often discuss in the sort of right wing lean of most of our papers. And the last thing I'd say, actually, Lewis, is that there is one phrase that really sticks in the cool for me. and that's this idea of using language that is anti-Semitic or racist as a wind-up as if that's fine you know oh it's just winding you up every woman knows and I'm sure every different group has got their own experience of this but every woman knows that like a sexist joke is still more sexist than it is a joke so when you have to sit and listen to a sexist joke it's not really a joke it's just a way of saying oh stop getting your knickers in a twist didn't you understand And I heard something when he was sort of saying, oh, yeah, I wound up the boys at school.
37:24Nigel Farage:I don't know what wound up means, but if you're winding up Jews because they're Jews or if you're winding up the black kids at school because they're black kids, that's not a wind up. That is essentially the same as being racist or being anti-Semitic. I just I find the whole idea of like, can't you get a joke? Didn't you understand the humor? Just a little bit ridiculous.
37:43Michael Crick:Well, again, worth saying again that as of today, Nigel Farage continues to deny the Guardian's reporting. We will be back tomorrow and we'll see you then. Bye bye.
37:53Nigel Farage:Bye for now.
From the publisher
The Prime Minister has called on Nigel Farage to explain the reports of racist comments the reform leader allegedly made as a school boy. Farage has denied making the comments and called the allegations “without foundation“.
The Guardian reported this week that he had picked on Jewish boys at Dulwich college when he was there at school and had sung offensive racist songs.
Much of their reporting had been aired a decade earlier by Michael Crick - broadcaster and Farage biographer. We invited him onto the Newsagents studio to ask if he thought Farage was racist then, and now?
The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/