Weekend Edition: Eddie Hearn talks Ricky Hatton & still trying to escape dad's shadow - The Sports Agents

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. I'm Barry Hearn, president of Matrim Sport. Talk to me. I'm Eddie Hearn, chairman of Matrim Sport. My son and I are calling my project. He's good, but he's not yet great. I'm fucking watching you.

0:22Mark Pougatch:To mark the release of a new Netflix documentary that brings us behind the scenes at one of the biggest global sports promotional companies on the planet,

0:29Gabby Logan:Eddie Hearn sat down with Gabby and myself for a conversation about the making of Matchroom Sport, a journey that took them from being£100 company under the staircase of the Romford Snooker Club to a billion pounds behemoth.

0:43Mark Pougatch:Still trying to impress his dad, Matchroom founder Barry Hearn, who at 76 isn't showing too many signs of slowing down, planning for life after Anthony Joshua, and his pain at how much more profitable the darts is than the boxing.

0:55Gabby Logan:Plus, he pays tribute to Ricky Hatton, one of the most loved boxers this country has ever produced.

1:01Mark Pougatch:Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:18Mark Pougatch:Eddie Hearn, great to have you back on The Sports Agents. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. Thank you for having me. Well, we're excited to talk about your new documentary. It's a real kind of look at you, your relationship with your family, with Matchroom. And as you always are, you're so honest and open. In fact, so much so, I was thinking, is there anything else we can learn about you? yeah maybe maybe too honest at times I mean that's got me in trouble over the years but and that's I think one of the beauties about the the documentary if you like I mean I watched Drive to Survive about four years ago when it launched and I just thought it was brilliant I thought it changed just people's understanding of the dynamics of the sport I think the behind the scenes is so fascinating and I wrote to Box to Box and I said you know who made it and I said if you thought Formula One's interesting you should try boxing I mean it's on another level of drama they came in and they filmed a pilot but when they came in they were kind of immersed into the darts and the snooker and me and my dad and the business and you know because we've kind of grown to a size that is quite unnatural for its beginnings and it's maybe it's infrastructure as well and we're quite a unique business and they just loved they loved it and you know for nearly two years we had these guys following us around mic'd up I mean it was just you know there'll be times where you'd be in a blazing argument you know you could be in the middle of a ring after a fight and then you know you're screaming in someone's ear and then you look down at your microphone you just go oh god and you look and these guys are over in the corner you know with the mic going yeah yeah and it's like and i go over to him and i say you can forget putting that in and they're like no no no no that is exactly what we want in this so there wasn't anything really stripped out of it it was you know it was there's a there's a few embarrassing moments for me as well but I guess that's the beauty of it and they kind of convinced me that you just got to go with that so slightly nervous at the same time but wouldn't be the first time I made a bit of a no but that's but that's interesting for you isn't it because in some

3:19Gabby Logan:ways the the shoe is on the other foot here you know you you will often see your fighters or whether it be the darts or the snooker within the company and how you can market people and where the interest is and what might catch someone's attention but now these documentary makers are doing the same to you yeah basically we get we're getting uh you know we're getting what we deserve probably but it's just like you know there's a lot of raw stuff obviously as we built up they wanted to kind of finish the show with a crescendo of matchroom success but the problem was we kept losing we went on this terrible run where you know frank warren beat us five nil that's in there AJ got knocked out of Wembley.

4:00You know, Anthony Joshua was actually, that fight was supposed to be the final episode. You know, it was like, AJ's going to win. He's going to win the World Championship. You drive off down the road and it's like, we've done it. We're back on top. But it never came. So it was like, you know, we kept going. Obviously, Katie Taylor had a huge win against Serrano on the Jake Paul, Mike Tyson card. And there's loads of back and falls and arguments between me and Jake Paul. You know, again, just a lot of drama. but also the infrastructure of the darts and key players as well from our business and those worlds.

4:32So Luke Littler, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Anthony Joshua, Turkey El-A-Sheikh, they're all in it. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It was a decision. It was a difficult decision to go with, if I'm honest.

4:47Mark Pougatch:On Anthony Joshua, so much of Matchroom's success in boxing was tied with his career. I know we're going to talk about all the other things that Matchroom does. And we saw him the other day, actually, at the BGC. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you didn't allow us to talk to him. But we saw him. I don't know why I got this, but I wasn't even there. You're the head honcho. It all comes from you. But I was allowed to ask him about the charity he was with, but I wasn't allowed to ask him anything else. And what I wanted to say to him was that we miss him. You know, when I saw him and he looks in fantastic shape.

5:20Mark Pougatch:He looks like he's training. I mean, I wanted to say what you're training for, but he looks like, you know, he could fight tomorrow. yeah are we kind of in between eras at matchroom because he's not fighting and maybe we don't know if he's going to fight yeah i think in but i think in british boxing in general there is definitely the kind of old guard just still there but you know and some of those old guards you're talking about people like david haye amir khan karl froch tony bell you i mean we went we had an amazing era there of and i could name another 15 you know and most of them have gone or some of them are still there but it's the new wave coming around so there's definitely a moment of building the new talent you know AJ's still got you know dare I say 12 18 months whatever it will be left I'm sure we'll see Tyson Fury again you know but these guys even the fight at the weekend you know Canelo Alvarez and Terence Crawford they're 38 and 36 or something I mean you know there's definitely the need for that young talent to come through but the first question I always get is when's Anthony Joshua fighting you know is he going to fight Tyson Fury so those those fighters really remain a flagship and you're right Gabby you know we do we do still want them and we do still need them

6:29Gabby Logan:for those big flagship nights you sort of said it was a difficult decision to do this why are you doing it we kind of got talked into it a little bit I mean I love the boxing idea but this is different this is like now once you start getting my dad I mean my dad's 77 years old all right and And let's be honest, there's no filter, you know. So it's like when you're running a big sort of corporate business, every time he goes on the mic, you're kind of just holding your breath, really. I mean, we all have – my dad listens to this podcast, so I'm a bit wary about saying this, but we all have dads of a similar age.

7:04Gabby Logan:And there is – I think we're probably all in agreement, aren't we? There's a – The world has changed. I don't think there's much controversy with what he says, but you've just got to be a little bit smarter these days. That's fact. so every time and he gets carried away when he started filming for this documentary he was like you know oh bloody cameras are everywhere oh well the next thing he's down his fishing lake at home and he's got like 30 of them filming him all day speaking of his fishing lake the first time i met

7:34Mark Pougatch:your dad was one of the first ever ob's i did when i went to sky as a 23 year old to do fisherama fishermania fishermania that's world renown fishermania that was it and there were honestly mark there are about 15 presenters around a lake because we all had different fishermen that we had to interview so there were too many fishermen for us to um and it was this crazy fishing competition and you could see i mean talk about somebody lighting up i mean he was in his happy place that day i mean fisher who creates fishermania and better who sells it to sky eight hours of live fishing right it's still going gabby i don't want to show your age but it's like fishermania 20 or something like that do you know what i mean so and it's like at every board meeting we'll sit in and we'll go because fishermania two fishermen is the ultimate prize i mean it's the champions league it's wimbledon it's the usa it's like and but it doesn't really make a lot of money if i'm honest and it does involve a lot of time and preparation but it's an institution of matchroom and we will sit in aboard me and say look do you think we should park up fishermania i mean has it kind of had you over my dead body i am not you know that is the greatest event we do it's like not quite but you know but that's that's kind of the conversations you see in the documentary as well yeah and that's the documentary is going to show that part of your business and the fact that darts dare i say it is the most profitable part of the business yeah by a long way i mean which It doesn't please you.

9:08Boxing will continue to have the presence and, you know, the kind of the headlines and especially the digital conversation, which boxing is very good at. But darts is a phenomenon. Phenomenon. I mean, people don't understand. When I say to people that darts dwarfs the boxing viewing figures by three times, I mean, there's nothing that even compares to the darts viewing figures outside of the Premier League football. and a lot of major darts events are rating the same as your your your average premier league game on sky which is phenomenal i mean i wish they paid us the same that they were paying per game for the premier league but you know it's another conversation you've got a new deal though haven't you true true yeah that went all right that was that was much more respected than the last one but still you know it sometimes people perceive it as oh it's just darts but not really you know when you go to a venue every major arena in the country and you sell out instantly and you know you're racking up five six seven a million viewing figures per night it's just it's unbelievable and you know people people think that luke littler changed darts darts was already in a phenomenal place but we just took it to another level of a wider audience you know and the first time probably that a darts player i mean when you think about if you started talking about the you know the top most famous five famous british sports people right now he's right up there and he's a darts player and I think the younger generation now look at the Littlers and go do you know there's actually a career for me now and we're seeing that translate to grassroots to the qualifying schools young people are playing darts and you know not everyone has the physicalities to go out and play you know football at a high level or rugby or whatever it is and you know Luke has just been an unbelievable addition role model ambassador whatever you

10:56Gabby Logan:want to call him i mean i was talking to a young lad recently and his mom who's who's who's going through everything that you're saying there eddie you know i think he's 12 13 and and and the amount of work that he is putting in to try and eventually have this professional darts career i mean it was it's it was a nightly thing for him balancing amongst everything else that he was doing school-wise did you on the on this documentary and i know you can go oh my god don't put that in or why have we done this or this that and the other was there anything did you find any of it sort of cathartic or therapeutic or did it make you evaluate your relationship with your dad or did you find stuff out about your dad that you didn't know to me my relationship with my dad's always been very normal but from the outset and to other people it's not really normal at all i mean he was very hard on me growing up to the point where i i was you know he calls me silver spoon kid you know and I had a great upbringing but he was petrified of giving me that upbringing and everything my whole education really was built around sport and business kind of became a sport where we were we both weren't good enough to play anything at a professional level so this is our competition and winning is just every like anything other than winning is completely irrelevant and it was like the drumming into you as a kid of participation is like I couldn't care less about the participation you know and I'm probably a little bit softer I have two daughters so like I'm not quite as sort of brutal as he was with it as well but he is obsessed with money obsessed with making money he comes from a council estate in Dagnum and when he was growing up he was obsessed with trying to build a better life and having all the things he could ever want what's your

12:41Mark Pougatch:obsession then because you had that life you had that great upbringing you went to school in a limo probably just trying trying to make a name within my own right I think you know there's always the conversation in this world of oh you know you had a head start because of your dad yeah I think that's pretty fair to say like I you know I mean I had a good education I went to work in the sports industry for six or seven years but then I came to work for him which I think I felt was kind of like my responsibility in life he'd given his whole life to this company who's going to take it forward who's going to try and take it to the next level but just like that competition that we had throughout my whole life I wanted to be better than him didn't matter if we were playing cricket in the garden or table tennis upstairs or whatever we were doing I wanted to be better than him and I wanted to be an achiever in my own know you know and growing up I was always Barry's boy which I dined out on you know a lot of the time especially when you're 15 and 16 and you're almost telling people but then once you start becoming a man it becomes a little bit sad just being known as Barry and I wanted to come out of the shadows and try and achieve something in my own name where people could say oh look that's you know that's Eddie Hearn's dad over there which we joke about now because that's what happens when he goes out.

13:57Mark Pougatch:Does he tell you that he's proud of you Eddie? Yeah I think so I mean you know I think the the thing that he's most proud of is probably my work ethic. And, you know, in the industry, I'm kind of renowned as a bit of a sicko in that respect, because I'm not, you know, I can sell, I can sell better than anybody. I can talk better than anybody. I'm not an intellectual genius, but I do work harder than everybody. And there's no one that, you know, even, even my biggest competitors, even the people that dislike me couldn't say he does not work himself to the bun all the time. And that is how I was built.

14:35Gabby Logan:Do you feel like you've proved yourself as your own man then? Or are you still driven to prove people wrong? There's probably a perception that I think I'm the bee's knees and I rate myself. I'm actually my own biggest critic. I think that I could do so much better and there's so much more to come. Sometimes I look back on the shows and the achievements. I mean, the key thing for us, particularly in boxing, I wanted to be a global promoter. I looked at Dana Wyatt. I looked at the WWE. And I look at that brand that was built globally. No one's ever done that before in boxing. And we're the only people that have ever done that with TV deals in the UK, in America, in Mexico, in Australia, in Saudi Arabia.

15:22Every week, we're in another city around the world. It's never been done before. so I think in that respect I appreciate what we've achieved but globally we're number one because we're really the only global force in boxing but in certain markets you might be number one one year and then Frank Warren's number one or you're number one in one year and Bob Arum's number one in America so yeah the work is never done.

15:47Mark Pougatch:More from Eddie including a tribute to the late Ricky Hatton after this.

16:03Gabby Logan:Gabby knows I'm obsessed with this documentary, as do everybody that listens to this podcast. Have you watched the Gerry Jones documentary then also? Not yet, I've heard incredible things about him. You've never had to deal with him, have you? Yeah, I have. I broke the attendance record in America for American boxing history. The biggest attendance record indoors, 75 ,000 at the AT &T Stadium with Jerrick. In fact, six weeks ago, I was with him. And we did a show at his training center, which is the Ford Center there in Frisco, which is unbelievable. He is like, he reminds me in a way. I haven't seen the documentary, so I don't want to say too much like my dad.

16:43but a lot like my dad in that he like he probably i mean he knows who i am but like you know i mean i'm i'm right down the bottom of any pecking order for jerry jones when i was there at the fight he came and he sat in the crowd not you know i said to come and sit next he said i'm all right i've got my friends over here and he asked to sit and he came over and you would have thought that i was best man at his wedding and that's people like that are very I was so impressed. Eddie, I've got to speak. And it's almost like someone's had a chat with him a couple of minutes before and said, right, this is Eddie Hearn.

17:18He did the Canelo Alvarez, Billy Joe Saunders show. He's promoting the show tonight. He does this. And he just reeled it all off.

17:24Mark Pougatch:You see how the royals are briefed when they meet. Yeah, probably. It's also an obsession for what he does. I mean, I'm sure someone told him. But he just, he's on it. And he fascinated me. So I'm going to watch that documentary. Oh, it's amazing, Eddie. Amazing. And you say your dad's a bit like that in terms of making people. I'm not that social, right? Because I speak to people. I do interviews all day. And I actually like just going to the gym, like just chilling out at home and doing nothing. He's nonstop. I phoned him the other night. He was at Chelmsford Racecourse with Johnny Fisher, one of our heavyweights.

17:58He goes everywhere. He would go to the opening of an envelope, honestly, right? He's just, and his enthusiasm and his engine is unbelievable. And when that stops, he'll stop. You know, people always talk about retiring. And if he retired and just sat down the lake, he'd be done. You know, he might have been done already, honestly. But he was playing cricket. Yesterday, I went over to East Henningfield, where he lives. He was captaining the president's team in his local cricket club. He plays for Essex over 70s, right? I've told you this story before. He scored 72 and 51 not out in his two games.

18:37this was like three weeks after having his third heart attack and i don't know if i told you the story before but my favorite story when he played for essex over 70s he was actually in the b team and he didn't tell me he was in the b team and i saw a report that said the b team and i went you're in the b team he's like no no no anyway then he got put in the a team right then two weeks later he got a letter from the ecb right to the office came in a you know thing and it came and it said England over 70s ashes tour of Australia no and he yeah and he was like he was absolutely overjoyed so dear Barry and thank you to your contribution for the Essex over 70s we have the big tour coming up of the ashes in Australia and we'd really like you to write the foreword for the program true story true story honestly and he I was surprised he even told us it he said I was absolutely tears in my eye.

19:32He was literally booking his flight. He was. He's a great competitor, honestly. I mean, he plays my daughter at table tennis. She's up to 21-19 she lost recently. And he was diving on the floor.

19:44Gabby Logan:Yes! Yes! And he won. And this is all the things I saw at Granite. I mean, it's like, it's mad.

19:50Mark Pougatch:It's going to be a great watch.

19:51Gabby Logan:It is going to be a great watch. Listen, before you go, just your memories of Ricky Hatton and what he did for the sport and what he did for fans of the sport yeah you know yesterday was just a few people just were sort of messaging saying i've heard you know something's happened to ricky hatton and blah blah blah and it and then it comes out you know with like an official you know uh story i think with the manchester evening news and it was just i mean the same age as me and but i i don't i i see him as like this senior legend of the sport i mean he was you know he was like the last of the dying breed before social media right so the real working class hero that was the man of the people right never did anything for views or likes or Or, you know, never showed any act of kindness and asked for it to be filmed and put out there by his PR team.

20:53He never had a PR team. In fact, you know, he would go out and he would fight. And then next thing, he would be in the pub in Manchester. And guess what? That's why 30 ,000 or 40 ,000 people travelled to his fights in Las Vegas. I mean, you'll never, ever, ever see anyone as popular as that. And, you know, Ricky was a guy who he could just adapt to any environment, but he loved just being one of the lads. You know, he would get up and he would perform stand up comedy. I saw he was such a funny guy and full of life, full of energy, amazing to be around. And, you know, he probably needed to work on himself, but he was always willing and prioritizing working on others.

21:40you know and that's a true act of selflessness where you know and actually a showing that you know on the outside he he had his demons but you would never know it you know because in the moment to the face he was full of life and energy and he would always help others before helping himself you know i think of his his son campbell that we promoted you know for his whole career you know his brother Matthew we worked with as well. I mean, you just can't imagine. And it's just so sad, so sad. And you've seen the response.

22:17I've never found one person who's ever said a bad word about Ricky Hatton. And I work in boxing where people slag each other off nonstop. Not one bad word. Never. Don't like that, Ricky Hatton. Oh, he's a bitch. Yeah. Just we love Ricky. everybody everybody loved him there was one person in the whole industry that didn't love

22:39Mark Pougatch:ricky hat and that says it all i think you know as you say there's been such an outpouring of love and appreciation and you know from from the from his boxing style and what he gave in the ring to what he gave everyday fans in the street to the kind of showman that he was as well it was he was a full package and in quite a few of the the boxes who've spoken about him and amir khan in particular spoke about learning a lesson from from Ricky that was to talk about your mental health and talk about problems do you think do you think boxing needs a little bit of a kind of a lesson from that in terms of talking a little bit more about how hard it is to transfer from being everybody's hero in the ring to to ordinary everyday life I think it's all sport really to be don't you like anyone that's adored and anyone that plays in or performs in a huge moment with incredible amount of adoration and energy and buzz once that leaves everything changes and you know boxing saves so many people because it gives them and aj is a good example of this it gives them a regimental lifestyle that helps them one just stay focused but also get get their life in order in so many other ways so when Ricky was fighting you know the only bad time for Ricky was when he wasn't in training because that's when he would spiral out or he gave his mates and he'd you know he'd like to go out at the time and he always used to balloon in weight and you know that was that was part of Ricky's kind of thing he was just such he was just such a normal one of the lads that that's just what he did he finished his fight and then he went on holiday to Tenerife for four weeks with the boys and just I and drunk beers you know and that was that was him and but but then you go back to the gym and then everything's all right again you know and you have 12 weeks in the gym when that goes you must be completely lost in terms of what to do with yourself and you know he oh I'll stay in the game I'll be a trainer he's an amazing training I did so much so much for so many fighters you know there's a lot of talk about obviously post what we can do post boxing for people i mean firstly there's the problem of financially when a lot of fighters leave the sport they're not financially secure you know and and that's difficult 30 35 and your career's over you don't have any qualifications and you're thrust back into the real world ricky actually had a lot on you know he was commentating like i said he was promoting he was managing he was training but but unfortunately you know he he he still faced those those demons you know and um you know i don't know the answer to that that and because because a lot of the time those schemes are designed to keep people in the sport but he he was kept in the sport i mean he did it off his own back and he was very talented at being in the sport but you know um i think that buzz when it goes it's like when it's like when anything dies inside you a passion or or you're not able to do something anymore it's been your life and it's the only thing that you care about and love you know it life becomes lonely you need to find another passion but sometimes that passion doesn't fulfill the hole that's left by the journey that he went and the problem is because of his adoration and because of those huge nights it wasn't just a fight down at York Hall it was fighting Floyd Mayweather in Las Vegas with 70 ,000 Brits and only 15 ,000 of them could even get in and the rest were just that you know I mean it was there's never been anything like it in terms of that love you know and that was showed yesterday i mean you know even at the football you know you saw there wasn't there wasn't anybody in boxing in sport in from manchester that wasn't completely rocked to the core by this eddie thank you very much

26:30Gabby Logan:giving us your time today good to see you uh match room the greatest showman with barry and eddie hearn launches globally on netflix on wednesday the 17th of september

26:46Gabby Logan:Well, Eddie was one of many voices that we heard during the week on Ricky Hatton and celebrating his life and talking about his legacy. As well as Eddie, we also heard from Sky's Andy Clark, who commentated on some of Ricky's most memorable moments in the ring. He got a 43-0 when he boxed Mayweather there. And it wouldn't have been that he would have thought that he couldn't lose because he'd lost in the amateurs. He got knocked out in the amateurs. so he knew that it could happen but you will get to a point in your career whereby you think okay well I could lose but it'll be a distance fight a close fight one of those ones where you don't get it on the cards I would imagine he got to the point where he felt like okay that could happen but I don't think he imagined that what could happen to him against Mayweather and then against Pacquiao that that could happen that that could happen because that would have been unthinkable, that you could get dismantled like that.

27:44Gabby Logan:And I think that was the thing that he really struggled with and that he found very, very difficult to accept because that's not what happened to him. He did that to other people. And that's when the ego and the fragility of the ego, this thing that has served you so well, and the pride and the self-belief that at times does have to border on a bit of delusion that has served you so well, all of a sudden that gets cracked. and it's a very, very difficult thing to repair. Some people manage to do it, but if you get to that point in your career where you've achieved that much and then all of a sudden you're going for the very, very top prize and it looks like this other person is maybe just a bit too good for you, there's not really much consolation you can take in that.

28:28We can talk about it, but we're not them, are we?