Weekend Edition: Lions with James Haskell - Pollock, Farrell's late call-up & almost killing a teammate - The Sports Agents

0:03This is a Global Player original podcast. It's hotting up for the Lions down under. The really big tests against Australia are fast approaching. And our bonus guest for the weekend edition is former England and Lions flanker James Haskell. So after the warm up games, does Haskell think Australia have anything to fear? What's it like to be called up as an injury replacement, as he and Owen Farrell both have? And do all of his memories touring with the Lions involve drinking? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

0:45Hello, it's been me on my own this week. Chappas has been away and we had a busy week on the podcast. Of course, one of the big stories to break was Christian Horner leaving his 20-year job running Red Bull, which has been incredibly successful but has been mired in controversy over the last 17 months or so. And I had a really good chat about this with Drive to Survive duo Jenny Gao and Will Buxton. The critical thing here is, and you've brought it up, is Max. Has Christian been let go because Red Bull have learnt that Max has signed elsewhere and this is the final straw? Or indeed, is this the final power play of the Verstappen family?

1:25Jos and Max saying, there's all this talk about us going to Mercedes. We're quite serious about it. But if you want us to stay, you have to get rid of Christian. It feels very much like it's one or the other. And after ex-Arsenal player Thomas Partey was charged with rape and sexual assault, charges which he denies, we spoke to The Telegraph's Tom Morgan about whether Arsenal now face some difficult questions over their decision not to suspend Partey while under serious investigation. The curious thing about all of this is obviously in this post-Levison era, it's become very, very difficult and fraught with risk for the media to name suspects prior to charge.

2:04But at the same time, obviously Thomas Partey's name has done the rounds and there's been these remarkable situations of him being jeered at games, his name being chanted. We've had the Arsenal supporters against sexual violence group literally protesting at most home games since Christmas, argued quite vehemently that there was a safeguarding issue here. And the example it sets of continuing to have someone in employment who has faced repeated arrests for rape sends out a terrible message to women. And Arsenal, we should say, their response was that the players' contract ended on June 30th and due to ongoing legal proceedings, the club is unable to comment on the case.

2:42And on that same episode, Lisa Nandy, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, came in to the Sports Agents podcast and she was talking about grassroots sports, how much the government is going to invest and how important it is to the whole of our society for so many reasons. The Football Governance Bill, which was having a very important reading in Parliament that day, and the Thomas Party charges. I started this conversation with many clubs in the wake of the allegations about Mohamed El Fayed, not just in football, but it obviously affected women who'd been in football, working in football, playing and so on.

3:17Obviously, you're right to say that in this case, charges have been brought, but there's been no verdict. So, you know, make no comment whatsoever about that. The case must be allowed to play out. But there is a particular problem in that there's a power dynamic. So, you know, your football stars are stars and they are very, very highly paid. They're prioritised in terms of they're a major asset to the club, a financial asset as well as an asset on the pitch. And so there is a power imbalance there that means that there have to be proper standards and there have to be high expectations of how those things are managed.

3:55You can't just rely on people who are much more junior, who have less economic value to the institution, being the people who come forward and try and make change. So that's why I think there is a real role for government here. Catch up with all episodes of The Sports Agents on Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts. Hit subscribe or follow and don't forget to rate and review. Now it's time for your weekend bonus content. A chance to check in on the Lions Tour as the big three tests against Australia are fast approaching. Up next, it's former England and Lions flanker, James Haskell.

4:40Delighted that James Haskell, a British and Irish Lion himself in 2017, can join us on The Sports Agents. James, welcome. Thank you. How are you? Very well. In fact, the first thing I'm going to say, because you've got a lovely wasps shirt framed behind your head there and the team was saying oh what are your memories of james as well kenny left wasps just around the time james was starting but the urban myth and folklore was about you handing out business cards um when you arrived at wasps no no so the senior players the truth of a good story so what what happened was my my old man was very progressive it was of the kind of 80s 90s early 90s where everyone had a business card and he unbeknown to me sort of saw a tough opportunity about sponsorship so he set up a website first and foremost something that i didn't have any you were still at school it was the year i sort of left he sort of had this website and he said i've never told me about it so as you can imagine when the lads found out about it they'd gone wild now the very fact that all the guys gave me stick all have their own websites businesses now and then i didn't realize he'd set up some business cards that he'd given me and i think someone asked me off my number and i I basically found the game to one of them.

5:51And obviously that went like wildfire. So I think it was the one and only car they gave out. So it's kind of true, I'd say, 99%. But I wasn't like Del Boy walking around, handing them out. And I sort of quickly realised that probably wasn't what to do. So I started to realise maybe all the advice my dad was giving me was not quite as sage as it was possibly. Let's say you were on the front foot. And I know I've heard you talk about this on The Good, The Bad and The Rugby, the kind of comparisons with Henry Pollock, actually, and kind of his personality being something that people have really latched onto.

6:18he's out there in this mix in Australia in the midweek game and had a bit of an injury last week but you know somebody like that do you look and think actually you know that's very much kind of what I was like at the time and putting myself out there I think listen I think he you know has x-factor ability that I didn't have as a player I think we in this country we like our sports people to have personality but not too much we like them to fit in boxes because if someone's doing too well at being a bit different you know we don't like it and so particularly in this country and I think someone like Pollock has kept the imagination because he's himself he's fun he's had some x-factor moments and he looks like he's doing he's doing well he's got a very young Northampton team around him who are all equally doing well and you know you saw Tommy Freeman with his lawnmower celebration so it's kind of actually quite nice unfortunately like everything unless you transcend sport Conor McGregor uh you know LeBron James is you know Kobe Bryant's Michael Jordan's that you have to do really well to have personality and particularly in the UK because if you have too much of it it's very difficult and the fall which will inevitably happen through form or through human nature can be quite bad well let's talk about the Lions he's in that mix actually Henry potentially you know could he maybe get himself into that match day squad for those tests we don't know let's talk about how they're doing at the moment for you I keep reading and hearing mixed.

7:40What's your assessment? So it's very hard because when you look at the Lions, it's full of romance, full of excitement, expectation. The realities are very different. And sports fans don't often see it like that because they want all their players from their country to play and they want it to be amazing and want performances to come. There's been no consistent selection at all. Every team is basically a scratch team. And it's kind of gone the other way as well. It used to be the midweek team was the, you know... We call them bin team bin juice, the sort of dirt trackers in the week. Dirt trackers, that's it.

8:06But the Saturday team has actually this time been largely those players. So I'm not sure what the thinking there is. Well, I think the problem is, I think the selection is wide open. I think there's probably Mauro Itoji, Finn Russell, Jamison Gibson Park. I think, you know, for me, the frustration is there's too many errors and there are compounding errors. So international rugby is very simple. If you score a try and you've got to receive a kickoff, catch a kickoff, clear your lines, go and put pressure on the line out and suddenly you've got three positives. Where at the moment the Lions are doing is to score a try, come back, fumble the kickoff, catch the kickoff, don't kick it to touch properly, run it out by mistake, force a pass, suddenly the opposition are back in it.

8:46Why is that? Because these are the very best players in the British and Irish teams, the home nations team. So why are they so error-strewn at the moment? The essential answer is everyone's playing for selection. All of it combines to people trying a bit harder, forcing a bit. I mean, I did see Tom Curry made a mistake. Two minutes later, gets a ball carry. Fabulous offload to Marcus Smith, who scores. Now that shows to me there's a squad that are confident to keep playing in the face of errors, which is great. But you've got to nail those nuts and bolts bits and everything else follows. At the moment, the nuts and bolts aren't quite there, which is perfectly normal for a team that consistently changes.

9:20It's consistently against different opposition. This weekend's game is the biggest test. It is chock full of superstars. It's going to be the biggest test on the tour for them before the internationals. And it's going to be physical. It's going to be brutal. Because it's the very best of Australia who aren't in the current Australia squad and the best of the Kiwis who aren't in the current All Black squad. Yes. So I think this is a massive test. And some guys, if they go well, will have forced themselves on the test side. If they don't go well, I pretty much think that's their tour over in regards to getting on the test side.

9:48OK, let's talk about your experiences back in 2017. Like Owen Farrell, you were called in. I mean, he's obviously been on quite a few tours before, but you were called in late. What is it like when you come in late? Has the dynamic, have the friendships already bonded? Has everybody kind of got their in-jokes? Do you feel a little bit like you've got to force yourself in? No, well, I was lucky because I basically played the premiership final. I was out for ZZ's, living the dream, and with my parents. And I got a phone call. Warren Gatton called me up. He goes, Hess, mate, you fit? I went, yep.

10:14And he went and put the phone down. And my parents were like, who was that? I said, it was Warren Gatton. I said, I didn't know you still have my number. And he's asked me if I'm fit. And then I Googled why that would be. He said, Billy Vinopolis injured. He calls me up like half an hour later. Hess, do you want to go on tour? do you want to be a Lion? I said, yep. He goes, okay, I'll call you back. Put him back on that. And he's like, he's asked me if I want to be a Lion. And I was like, is this all at Zizzi's? This is all at Zizzi's. Some guys can do really good impressions and I'd fallen foul of an impression of a guy called John Wells that used to coach the England side when I was playing for England.

10:43A guy called Danny Hipkiss was doing a great impression of him. And they called me up, 2007 World Cup series and I'd just narrowly missed out on the full squad. And he calls me up, I was like, all right, James, it's John Wells here. you know some of the lads have been injured we wonder how you've been getting on and i went well actually john i've been on fire i've been playing way better than nick easter so and all the lads in the background like because obviously it's not him mugging i've absolutely knifed everyone said that i'm great and then i went well don't worry we'll you know we'll think about calling and then they obviously didn't call me out then i realized that it was a stitcher so the same thing i thought warren gatlin might be someone mugging me off and then about two hours later i'm just in the car he calls me out he goes hess do you want to um i'd like to take on the tour to New Zealand.

11:21Do you want to go? I was like, yeah. He goes, you sure? I was like, yeah. He goes, okay, meet the hotel tomorrow. So then I got into the hotel before they left. We basically had the leaving dinner. So I walked in, got my kit, met everyone. I basically, I like everyone, not everyone likes me. So I kind of go and sit with anyone at any table. I don't really have an ego in that regard. So I came in and said hello to everyone, introduced myself. And I knew things would be a bit tough when Rory Best was quoted as saying, it's not that, I won't swear, but basically not that dickhead essentially um and so i so with the lions i knew pretty early on that i wasn't going to be in the the test side but i knew how important it was to keep the guys interested in morale and be a good tourist and that makes a successful lions dynamic presumably have you have you spoken to anybody out there at the moment yeah yeah i've spoken to ellis a couple of times i spoke to some of the lads i messaged owen to congratulate him i spoke to elliot a little bit but you know disappointed he didn't go through but we're flying out on monday we're going to be there for three weeks and i'm djing a couple times out there and then djing barley so yes it's going to be quite interesting month away lots of hosting lots of dinners lots of chatting rubbish you know which is what you're making your living out of now doing very well indeed yeah uh maratoji said it's like being when he came on the podcast it's like being a member of the beatles when you tour with the lions just the hysteria around them and we missed that last time with covid obviously but the red wall uh will be there in force for those tests give us a flavor yeah it's amazing look you To see 40 ,000, 50 ,000 fans come across and support, in New Zealand in particular, sees a red.

12:49I think it's three nations put their disgust and distaste for England on hold for a pit and they're all united, all the fans united. It's a very weird experience because suddenly the animosity and all the bits of it, even though it's not tribal like football in certain aspects. Well, everybody hates England. Yes. I think it's quite interesting to come and be united with people. And from a player's point of view, you're playing against players that you've only ever played across the whitewash. You've never really had spent time with them. Some of you might admire, some of you will look up to, some of them are world-class.

13:21Suddenly you get to look behind the curtain, see how they train, see what they're like, see their mentality. Are they what you expect them to be? And it's the same thing with the fans. And what was really interesting about the Lions for 2017 was I suddenly got to spend time with Johnny Sexton, who's become a really good mate. Dan Bigger, a really good mate. Sean O 'Brien, Stuart Hogan, all these boys that I kind of didn't really know, who probably thought I was a bit of a muppet. We got on like a house so far. we've stayed and been friends ever since. And when you get on that tour, they all speak to the fans.

13:47So what's interesting is I now, even 10 years later, whatever it is, fans come up to me and go, oh, Sean O 'Brien says you're a good guy. So I like you. So you're all right. I remember, you know, Johnny Sexton came back and said, James, that's a good lad. So it filters out into these fans who are so invested. So when you go on tour, everyone's having the romance, sharing pikes, having jokes. And it's just amazing. And it's the last bit of romance in sport, I think, really, the Lions tour. Yeah. Yeah. It's mythical, isn't it? It's the thing of legend. Rory Best, you mentioned at the very beginning there.

14:17Tell us about when you almost killed him. Yes. Yeah, that was an interesting one. So essentially, I'm not a big fan of going out on the smash on tours, particularly because of camera phones, particularly because I think people do look to stitch you up a bit. It's a bit difficult. So I'd not gone out. Sorry to interrupt you, but do you have a kind of open conversation about that beforehand? Yeah, yeah, we do. The coaching staff say, look, you know, this is different. You've got to be careful. we do but you know what you know any team if i was ever running a team i'd have a full security team go up with every lads that went out we had it with england uh the amount of things that got me together i remember i we were walking through manchester we'd gone up there to stay up there and i was walking on the street and a guy came out of a bar and i think he had sick on his shoes or something like that and i looked at i looked at him just smiled carrying him walking and i didn't see that he ran up behind me and tried to tackle me into a fence i didn't see it and the security guy literally just came out of nowhere boom plowed a bit thing is just stuff like that that would have been you know imagine if he hit me i or something had happened or i'd scrap with him i would have got the blame for that and there's things on nights out where people have said things have happened and obscurity of like no no no that's absolutely rubbish and so i just think unfortunately people want to stitch you up people do like to stitch you up when alcohol's involved it's very difficult recollections of stories may vary as the as the royal family say and so So I think it is difficult.

15:36I personally don't do it because I just don't think it's a good idea. So I stayed in the night before, after the final test, came down for breakfast. Ian Henderson and Rory Best walked into breakfast like Shrek and Donkey. They hadn't been to bed. So they came in and Rory said to me, oh, do you want a drink? And I said, Rory, it's 8.30 in the morning. And I sort of looked at myself and thought, you know, what about my integrity and my professionalism? And then realised I didn't have any. So I had a can of cider, sat at the table, me, Ian and Rory having a can of cider. Then Joe Marla joined, Dan Cole joined.

16:07Jack Knoll had passed out of the hospital bed in the team room. He rolled off his bed and he think he probably would have gone to bed. He didn't. He rolled straight onto the table. CJ Sanders. So suddenly we're all sitting there about 8.30 in the morning, just drinking all this mountain of free alcohol. So we're drinking, talking. Rory Best came up with a sophisticated drinking game, which was when he said drink, you just finished your pint. And then he introduced it to the even more insane game where you used to get toothpicks and stick them into your head and then finish your drink. So we sort of looked like Hellraiser and with blood dripping down the face and doing pints.

16:38I mean, 3D chess, it wasn't, but it was interesting. It's not doing much for their reputation. But these were all kind of confines, this hotel, this, you know. Yeah, yes, there's nobody there. Nobody there. Yeah, lads all went off to, you know, Waikiki Island for a wine tasting thing. Because we're such bloody lads, we put like cardboard boxes on our heads, cut holes out of faces. Dan Coles obviously had an upside down frown. So we're all sitting there. I go, listen, Rory, you're looking a bit tired. Why don't you have a lie down? So we wheeled this hospital bed from where Jack Noel had been asleep, put him into bed.

17:10And he's like, I don't need to go to sleep. I don't need... Listen, Rory, you're getting old, mate. You've done a little sick. I think it's time to have a lie down. So he said, well, maybe just have a little minute. So I have a little minute, right? And so anyway, he tucked him in and he just goes to bed. And we're all sitting around going, oh, this is brilliant. And we realised that we're on the ground floor of the Pullman Hotel and the French windows open up onto the pavement and the road. So we all go, you know, like kids, let's wheel them out. So we wheeled Rory's best sleeping body out into the road and we put it on the pavement and we're all thinking, this is so funny.

17:39And everyone's starting around, you know, we're making way more noise than we should be, but Rory's not waking up. And then everyone goes, what should you do? And I just kicked the back of the hostel bed and it went boom, boom, onto the road and just started rolling down the hill. And it was like really funny. It was like, ha, ha, ha. And then obviously it suddenly dawned on me that what happens if like a car came or what happens if a lorry came what happens if a car lorry came this is dip because you're going to die so we start running but we've obviously been on the smash for like i think about eight nine hours at that time so our athletic ability was reasonably questioned the lads gave up quite early on i'm running because i kicked him i've had to give up because i couldn't catch this bed rory's sailing down the hill what i didn't realize obviously auckland's at the top of a hill and the pullman hotel it goes off to a roundabout that went round a park but there's like sheer like steps and i'm thinking i'm thinking what what we're going to do we're going to have to pretend he did it to himself or something happened like i'm trying to write my you know work out if i can fly out of the country but luckily the um the camera of the road started to take rory towards a bus stop of oap day trippers who some of them started seeing him and thought the corpse escaped so they're screaming or clutching the pacemakers the bed flies into the pavement like a big like a big set of crinkly airbags rory best is thrown out the bed onto all these old people everyone's screaming they think there's a body we're obviously on the floor in hysterics with cardboard boxes on our head and there's never such a low moment to see a proud rory best having to wheel his own hospital bed back after profusely trying to apologize for taking out more oaps you know so that was that was how we always killed and it was all fun and games until you kill irish island's favorite son but we didn't do that so it was kind of okay no exactly and there's a there's a happy ending There's a silver lining to that night of drinking.

19:19Thank you so much for your time. What a great way to end and to tell you that the good, the bad and the rugby unleashed is out in paperback for those who don't like to carry a hardback around with them. Great news. I mean, I've got both, obviously. Just very quickly, is it going to be 3-0? Is it going to be a whitewash? I think it's going to be 2-1 lines. And I think we need a 2-1 lines. I think if we get a 3-0 whitewash and it doesn't go well, you've got to start questioning whether maybe we go and tour in France one of these times. because I think that would be unbelievable for the Lions. Imagine playing those top 14 sides.

19:50I was thinking that the other day. That would be amazing. 100 ,000 fans coming over, big, big games around France. France are in form, food, wine. Environmentally, it's better. People can drive, they can get the train, you know. I don't think I've ever thought that, but I like it. I'm agreeing with you. You can use that one as well. Thank you so much, James. Take care. Have a great summer. Enjoy Australia. Thank you.

20:18The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. That's it for this week. If you're enjoying the episode on the News Agents feed, then just search for The Sports Agents to listen to this week's episodes in full, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts for that. Get in touch either on our socials or on email, thesportsagents at global.com. New episodes every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.