Wes Streeting on why Keir Starmer cannot save himself or his country

30:25Lewis Goodall:did you agree with the spirit of that message which is to say a lot of your colleagues do spend a lot of time thinking about how to tax people to pay people benefits that's a bit of a problem with the current Labour Party I think that I think there can be an element of truth on that in the left I also think though that if I think back to that the heat of that moment on welfare the welfare bill that wasn't actually the issue and and I'll be honest I think the parliamentary Labour Party gets grossly miscaricatured. What went wrong on that welfare bill was that everyone knew it wasn't about reforming the system, it was simply about cutting the bill.

31:05So it's an arbitrary cut. And when Liz Kendall was the welfare secretary at the time, the work and pension secretary, showed me the case studies of the types of people who would be impacted, I was horrified. and so were Labour MPs. Labour MPs will support welfare reform but they want it to be genuinely reforming and the other thing I'd say about the parliamentary party because they're sometimes presented as if they're sort of you know constantly trying to drag the government off to the left and are incapable of making difficult decisions that's not true actually what Labour MPs are fed up with is going out there, defending difficult decisions, being marched up to the top of the hill, only to have the rug pulled out from under the feet because the government new turns, or being punished for saying the right thing and then finding actually the government changes its tune.

31:57Like Marcus Campbell Savers, the MP for Penrith and Solway, classic case in point, speaking up for his farmers. And like this guy is Labour to his core, was the group whip when he was a councillor. So he understands the importance of discipline, but he was tearing his hair out not getting a hearing, rebelled on farming, lost the whip in a way that would never have happened under Tony Blair or Gordon Brown or Ed Miliband for that matter and then we change our position back to Marcus's and like it just it's just daft. And I want to talk a bit more

32:28Lewis Goodall:about some of the other things that have happened this week that are really really important and I don't want to spend any more time talking about the Prime Minister apart from one question which is this the thing that going back to the conversations that I allude to with you've just relayed some of it others say some of the things another thing comes up again and again which is the idea that he's not political do you think that do you think fundamentally he's kind of in the wrong job he's not really a politician and that's one of the reasons why the public don't get him which you've alluded to yeah i do think that is fundamentally that is that is exactly it and And it's how you end up kind of triangulating in the worst way and then not being able to sort of recover the position.

33:12So, look, the thing that nearly took me out at the last general election and took out good Labour people like John Ashworth was that LBC interview, you know, where he said it was OK for Israel to cut off water, aid, electricity to Gaza. and said Israel does have that right now I I am in no doubt that he misspoke about that I am not in any doubt but then there was no correction for days and I thought in that moment why can you not have like just the if you you've not you don't if you don't know what you think instinctively and stick by it you end up coming unstuck and I do think that is part of it and I do think that there is an absence of politics and look fundamentally if this was and this is why what happens next is so important in terms of how we conduct ourselves as a party and how we have a contest that's a battle of ideas not personalities because if it was just a case that the problem with government is style easy problem to solve like it is true to say that we were guilty of reeling off what the great things this government's doing as shopping lists and that is a problem because says the thing about shopping lists you write them down because you can never remember them and we always talk in shopping lists in government so we definitely need better storytelling that's true but the comms and everyone likes to beat up the comms people the comms is only as good as the substance and you're not telling me that across the what is it now four different directors of communication we've had different characters different experience exactly you're not telling me that they're all useless comms people.

34:55They were talented comms people. That's not the problem. The comms can only reflect the substance. And so what comes next has to be a battle of ideas. It has to be about the ideas that can change our country. And that's what I've been starting to set out in recent weeks, whether it's on how we create growth and prosperity and rebalance the complete imbalance between income taxation and wealth taxation with my proposal for a wealth tax that actually works. The proposal is to invest more in our early years so we can get it right first time for kids who are growing up from poverty like I grew up in.

35:38The travesty of kids living in temporary accommodation that's costing us three billion pounds a year. These are some of the big issues the big ideas where i think we can be bolder and smarter and progressive because i think the big challenge for us lewis looking to the next election we've got to unite progressives and beat reform and the reason why we've been losing to our left and the greens is because progressive voters have been looking at us thinking i don't know who you are i don't know what you stand for and i increasingly don't think you're the best way to stop this dangerous force on the right of politics.

36:14That's why it's existential for Labour. Well, I want to talk about that and we'll do that just after this.

36:25From a range of trusted voices and award-winning journalists.

36:28Lewis Goodall:Good morning, I'm Nick Ferrari. It's time to get to your calls. Find out the latest news and hear every side of the story. He was actually treated in a way that meant an accusation of a racial slur was treated more seriously but an act of murder. They wanted riots and they got riots, aided and abetted by people who really should know better. But the next dimension of this tragedy could be even more troubling. Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

37:08Lewis Goodall:so Wes look this has been um I think for a lot of people a pretty uh chilling week in politics we've obviously had the case of tragic case of Henry Novak um which would be tragic in itself but we've also had the politics which has flowed from it a politics which actually as we know the rather remarkable family of Henry did not want to see, but we've seen it anyway. What have you made, now not being in government and sort of seeing some of the reaction from the inside, so watching it from the outside, what have you made of the politics of this week?

37:41I think the choice for the country has been laid bare. we can be a country that is like Henry Novak's father who gave the most morally courageous and thoughtful and inspiring message whilst dealing with a grief and a tragedy that I can barely comprehend I mean I could not even watch the full clip of the arrest of Henry Novant I couldn't I couldn't get to the end of it I found it so distressing and I didn't know the kid he wasn't my son and I found it distressing and chilling and in the face of that grief his father found the moral courage and clarity to say i don't want this to be used to further division in our country i thought that was magnificent and i think it's contingent on all of us and not just politicians the nation to respond to that kind of moral leadership and then by contrast I saw Nigel Farage calling for rage in this country and I also saw the way in which the Reform Party sought to grossly and dangerously misrepresent Kemi Badenock who like Keir Starmer I thought showed the right kind of leadership in response to this and I don't hold a torch for Kemi at all funnily enough but I saw on the breakfast sofa this week and I saw her speak with clarity and conviction when she said I don't care about black lives matter I don't care about white lives matter all lives matter she was really clear about that i don't want to say she didn't say i don't care i don't want to hear black lives white lives they all matter so she was really clear then an ad goes up that quotes what she said in 2022 black lives do matter set against one part of what she said on breakfast television this week i don't want to hear about white lives matter those two sentences slapped on an ad with kemi's face and promoted across social media like wildfire why because they want people to believe that the black woman who leads the conservative party cares about black people but doesn't care about white lives and that was dangerous it was incendiary and I don't say this lightly this is the type of propaganda that is reminiscent of the 1930s and that is the choice for the country you can have a politics that is decent that is based on ideas and that is about hope and possibility or you can have a politics that is about rage, is about division and seeks to ferment and stir hatred to politically profit from it.

41:07It is dangerous, it is nationalistic and it has got to be beaten and that's why I think actually those of us who are progressives who are not Conservative Party supporters or members have a moral responsibility right now to be upstanders and to say the misrepresentation of Kemi Baden-Ock is a disgrace. But together, we, mainstream politicians, have to see off this existential threat to our country of English nationalism represented by Farage.

41:36Lewis Goodall:So let's be clear, you're saying that this is the politics of the 1930s. So you're saying it's fascistic? He is a... Nigel Farage is an English nationalist. and nationalism is a dangerous and potent political force. It's a bit more than nationalism, isn't it? Because you can get contemporary nationalism. You're talking about something over and over. You're invoking the 30s. That's not just nationalism. It's the same kind of propaganda. So, you know, and I don't make that comparison lightly and that's why I don't level the charge of fascism lightly and I'm not saying Farage is a fascist, but I am saying he's an English nationalist.

42:13Would you say that adds? He was stirring a seat into benefit.

42:17Lewis Goodall:You're not saying Farage is a fascist, and I can understand that. But that ad and the strategy and that type of politics of that ad, would you say that that was like fascism? It was certainly incitement to hatred and designed to actively mislead people that the woman, the black woman who leads the Conservative Party only cares about black lives and not white lives. And it is so obviously untrue. I really think people like Nigel Farage Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman, Richard Tice, they all need to be challenged on this. Like, does Robert Jenrick, who was a Cameroonian conservative, a one-nation conservative, does he honestly think this is right?

43:01Is he going to be a bystander to this kind of politics? And as for Suella Braverman, I mean, perhaps we shouldn't expect better of her, that this is someone who claimed that Rishi Sunak, the prime minister of our country, could not be English because his family came from India. He was the prime minister of England. I don't... This is the danger of the moment that we're in. Why are they saying these things? Why are they deploying these tactics? Because nationalism is a potent and dangerous force. and progressives need to and I think this is Labour's fight this has always been our fight that's what the Prime Minister says always been our fight you sound like Keir Starmer who talks about the politics of decency and it is a fight we are currently losing

43:51Lewis Goodall:with the leader that we have and that's why I left the government you think that the stakes are that high that if Keir Starmer continues that he will be the midwife to that sort of politics 100 % and that's the thing that worries me more than anything else and that is why for all the grief it took and the bereavement I felt and the risk, I felt I couldn't stay. And it's why I just urge my colleagues to look at what's going on in the country, to look at the results we've just seen at the ballot box and to listen to the voters. You have a very mixed constituency. One of the things about this sort of politics is that it sort of cascades through society.

44:28Lewis Goodall:Do you see that in your constituency in terms of racism and so on? Very much so. And one of the things that has moved me and like the thing that has exercised me is the people I represent on the London-Essex border they're not just frightened of what we're seeing they're experiencing it I've got I've got boys in one of my local secondary school who were actually quite emotional which is some quite something for teenage boys to do in front each other describing to me their direct experience of racism in this one of the most diverse cities on earth i had one of my constituents who's a muslim woman walking down oxford street wearing a hijab broad light of day first thing in the morning busy metropolitan shopping district verbal abuse man tries to forcibly remove a hijab i had one of my party members almost in tears at one of our most recent meetings because one of her kids was abused coming out of the local tube station and with with with racist abuse this this is an online phenomenon sure and that's a really big challenge but this is also happening on our streets and we got to take it seriously and as for musk and as for uh the tech brolygarks that are either complicit in their platforms being used to incite hatred or are actively fermenting it and look at what grok did this week doxing the wrong police officer but whether it was the right police doxing people now she's come under threat and her family's come under threat lewis this is this is the this is the rule of the mob not the rule of law and again like when you see the pillars of society being shaken in this way democracy freedom the rule of law we have to act so why is x not being taken to task as a publisher that is inciting mob rule what do you think the government is it because the law isn't being enforced in which case it should be is it the law isn't strong enough in which case let's change the law so we've got to take the tech we've got to take the pen back from the tech brochure list.

46:43I'm not a Luddite. I think that Britain is one of the leaders of the revolution, the AI revolution. We punch above our weight. We're just behind the US and China. Two massive superpowers and we're a tiny little island. I'm proud of that and I saw it firsthand in health, the difference that technology is making. But if we were the workshop of the world for the first and second industrial revolutions, it's up to us now to be the conscience of the fourth industrial revolution, the AI revolution, to take back the pen, to take back control, and to start writing into the rules of the online space, the values and the decency that underpin the rule of law in the offline space.

47:24Lewis Goodall:So in practice, you've just talked about some of the things that Musk has been responsible for this week, which X has been responsible for this week. There have been other things even as well. One of your parliamentary colleagues, Chesa Sato, now trying to take X to court because of the, again, appalling fact that there are images made of her in bikinis or sexually compromising positions or whatever it is. We've seen the journalist Cathy Newman facing death threats as a result of content that's been put on that website and taken out of context, etc, etc, etc. What should the government do? What should the government do over and above what they're currently doing?

47:54Lewis Goodall:What would you do if you were Prime Minister? I think, as I say, we need to strengthen our laws. We need to take this on. And we need to make sure that when you are faced with some of those moral choices, that you put our values and our interests and the safety of our own people ahead of kowtowing to powerful vested interests in the United States. Is Musk a threat to British democracy? Of course he is. He's meddling in it. And that's the other thing I think we should say very confidently. Bugger off. Keep your nose out. It's nothing to do with you. You live in the United States of America. You worry about what's going on there.

48:29We don't need people poking their nose into our democracy. Thank you very much. We don't need people telling a story about this country, which simply isn't true. This country has been the cradle of democracy around the world. This country has been the penholder for some of the most powerful words written into the English language which guarantee the fundamental rights and the equal worth of every human being on this planet. We were there writing the UN Charter, the Fundamental Charter of Human Rights. We were there the penholders of so much of the international law which holds up democracy freedom human rights and stands against tyranny we did it in the 20th century we've got to have the confidence and the

49:14Lewis Goodall:courage to do it in the 21st given all you said about x and clearly what you think is basically quite a malign influence now on british politics if you were a prime minister is another case for the british government to withdraw from it oh to remove ourselves from the platform yeah we could do that i think the the reason why i haven't done that personally because i could do that yeah the studio and do it like i generally let's do it right now live generally as a as a as a as an approach i don't believe in retreating from space or from not engaging but it would send an extraordinary signal wouldn't it to journalism to other public organizations that frankly this is an organization this is a this is a social platform which is doing more harm to british democracy than good and the british government doesn't see much point yeah i think that's a powerful argument i'm i would still and it is becoming a more finely balanced argument i would absolutely so is it something you'd consider if you were i would still come down on the side today if i were the prime minister's day i would still come down on the side of there is a space online where there is a battle of values being fought where we should be present and we should take it on um that that that could change but for now it's a bit like i mean less far less extreme example granted but you know over the years on the left we've had debates about oh you know should we write for newspapers or give interviews to newspapers we disagree with um who've said things that we find morally objectionable and i generally think like don't abandon spaces to your political opponents because otherwise um the public here the the worst character assassinations leveled by your opponents rather than your own case, your own argument.

50:55But Musk controls the algorithm.

50:56Lewis Goodall:He controls it all. Yeah, and I think we've got to look closely at that. And again, I say this is a more finely balanced argument. But I would still come down on the side of this is a battle of ideas and values and we've got to win the argument and take it on. We've got to be in the spaces where the public are. And you talk about political interference. I mean, it's not just Musk, of course. Like the US State Department, the Trump administration, has got involved on this question of two-tier policing in our country. They tweeted, I think it was yesterday, about the Novak case. Ideological conditioning and two-tiered policing are glaring symptoms of civilisational decline.

51:31Lewis Goodall:They must be rejected across the West. The US sends our condolences to the family of Henry Novak and the people of the UK at this troubling time. What's your response to the Trump administration getting involved in our politics in that way? I don't expect to provide a running commentary on what's going on in the United States and the policies of the US administration and government and president. And I expect the US administration to show the same respect in return. We are two of the closest allies the world has ever seen. We've got so many shared interests. And I don't go in, I'm an Atlanticist as well as a very strong pro-European.

52:14And I believe very strongly in the transatlantic alliance. And I believe very strongly in the ties that we have with the United States, which are of values as well as shared national interests and mutual shared interests. I find this disrespectful and this is not the way that friends should treat each other.

52:36Lewis Goodall:Should we summon the US ambassador and tell them that? I think summoning the ambassador is something you reserve for kind of the most egregious thoughts. I do think we need to have that conversation with our friends and allies in robust terms, as friends sometimes do. How would you handle President Trump if you were Prime Minister? Would you do it much differently to Keir Starmer, or would you have your own approach? I mean, it must be something you've thought about. It must be an intriguing prospect. Yeah, but say what you mean and mean what you say. On every election leaflet in Ilford North, since I first stood, I've always said the same thing.

53:10You may not always agree with me, but you'll always know where I stand. And I think President Trump strikes me as someone who respects that kind of straight talking. That's what he would get for me if I were prime minister of this country.

53:21Lewis Goodall:Anything you admire about him, President Trump? I mean, you can't deny the fact that he is both a winner and a bulldozer. And a bad loser. You might say that, Lewis. But I think that the one thing I would say, putting to one side the obvious very principal differences and very, very, very different type of politics, there is something to be said about the way in which the Trump administration has come in and just got stuff done. and I do think our system of government is too slow. Now, I don't think you come in and tear everything up. Fancy a number 10 ballroom? I definitely don't think we'll be doing that.

54:19But yeah, I'd say that those are the things that you kind of look to. But just on the substance of what all this is about,

54:29Lewis Goodall:what the State Department has said, what Farage has said, do you think we have got a problem of two-tier policing in this country, or is it just a confection?

54:39Lewis Goodall:i think there's two problems one is perception one is reality i do think like if you're if you're a black person in this city today you're four more four times more likely to be stopped and searched than either of us and i i think a lot of people in the black community would say yeah that's two-tier policing i think that there is an issue sometimes of the law being applied selectively and inconsistently and i think those are issues of substance but i'd also argue that perception is also a problem so i've i've had this debate with the police over the years on fear of crime because nothing and i totally get where they're coming from like there's nothing more frustrating when you're doing a good job and your crime numbers are falling and like there's been some really good crime number falling in london um of being told yeah but um everyone's everyone's worried about it still everyone's worried about burglaries which have fallen massively in my constituency um and the police say yeah but that's that's that's but burglaries are falling yeah but the perception it changes how people feel how they're living their lives.

56:01So I've always argued that fear of crime should be treated almost as seriously as crime itself because of perception is lawlessness. And I think the perception here is that there are people in our country who believe as a matter of really strong conviction that there's two-tier policing and criminal justice. Against white people. Yeah, there is definitely a perception. But do you think that's true? Is there any truth? I don't fundamentally believe that's true. No, I don't, Lewis. Honestly, we've got to make sure, though, and this is where I think Shabana Mahmood is absolutely spot on and absolutely the Home Secretary for this time and the challenges we face.

56:37She is totally clear. One law, one English common law that applies equally and fairly to everyone consistently. That's what we've got to make sure we reinforce.

56:48Lewis Goodall:What the right say is that liberals and progressives got extremely, extremely agitated, worked up, talked about fury in the wake of the death of George Floyd, which of course in this country was about a state and a city and a country that is very far away and they would say that there is hypocrisy on the part of progressives and liberals because here is we didn't necessarily know all the circumstances immediately into what happened in george floyd but there was violence and there was anger immediately the prime minister took the knee all of that sort of stuff so they say liberals and progressives are allowed to get angry about police cases that anger them they're allowed to be symbolic they're allowed to be furious why aren't we so i separate out two things i mean one is um context and history white people are the majority in this country and that's not to say that white people can never experience racism because we've seen it and we see it online too and it's not to say that white people can't be at the sharpest end of some of the worst inequalities and injustice this i've experienced it myself you know i was you know white working class boy growing up in east london and look at the outcomes for kids from backgrounds like mine and not just working class kids white boys so i'm not saying there are there aren't any inequalities or injustices that affect us but the context is different and similarly in the case of henry novak can we be angry should we be angry at what happened to him my god yes like i as i said to you i couldn't i couldn't watch i couldn't watch the full footage i found it so distressing and i and and the callous incompetence of that moment and that policing and the way in which the perpetrator of his murder was able to weaponise in that way those are things we should take seriously is that should that generate national rage and riots in Southampton?

58:52No and that is what some people like Farage have absolutely played into and that is what we must stand against and remember the words of Henry's father.

59:02Lewis Goodall:A couple of quick things before we finish with a couple of less Labour the leadership uh questions um north sea oil and gas is it time to change policy on that should we be drilling again in the north sea is it worth a single working class person or a single bit of lost tax receipt for the basis of the tiny amount of carbon that we put into the atmosphere well we'll see what what ed decides on the licenses because these are quasi-judicial kind of legal decisions i do think there is a case because i don't see this as um a sort of culture war issue and a kind of, do we go for renewables and electrification?

59:38I mean, look at the state of our energy security. I think there is both an economic case, an energy security case, as well as a moral case to go faster on electrification and faster on renewables and just go big on renewables. Big growth opportunity, big environmental gain, great. I think we can fund some of that green transition through using tax receipts from oil and gas. So Ed Miliband's wrong, Ed Miliband's policy's wrong. To be fair to Ed, he's not made a decision on those licences yet, so give the guy a chance. No, but he's made an overall decision and he put into the manifesto a clear overall position about new licences.

1:00:12There is a slight danger, Lewis, that we end up with some false binaries and cutting off our nose to spite our face and pretending that we are leading the world and making a difference when actually we'd end up disadvantaging ourselves. And that's where I think, you know, take what GMB, Unite are saying. they represent workers in oil and gas and you know there are some great unionized jobs in renewables too so it's not that they're against renewables quite the opposite i think they're making a sound case for the energy transition not least because i think for a lot of the workers who hear the language of a just transition and jobs of the future what a lot of those oil and gas workers here is oh right you mean jobs for someone else somewhere else and that can't be where we end up and i think the same is true of the ai revolution by the way and i think it's going to be one of the big issues of our time and actually why labor and the cause of labor with a big l and a small l it was necessary for the first and second industrial revolution it is definitely necessary now with the ai revolution with the clean power revolution how do we protect the interests of labour in this changing world changing energy industry changing automation AI so I think this is where the Labour Party and the Labour movement as one come into our own and I think we should

1:01:32Lewis Goodall:follow the lead of GMB and Unite yes what did you make of being accused of sending hysterical messages to Peter Manilson about Gaza he said that you were being hysterical about Gaza and messages to him well I suppose it makes a nice change for a man in politics to be accused of being hysterical so um i've taken taken one for the team there to tackle um some of the sexism at some point it might be a charge leveled at a heterosexual man as well um but the look to be honest i saw that and i just thought yeah this is this is the problem i've had all the way through on gaza inside government the context of that exchange with peter mandelson and my friend pat mcfadden was i had received well i'd had an in-person meeting but i'd also received a document a dossier of eyewitness testimony of british doctors in gaza not activists not people with a political agenda people simply with a desire to save life and a humanitarian agenda and what I heard first hand and what I saw in the documentary evidence was serious and substantial charges of war crimes and a level of civilian suffering which I thought was unconscionable Do you think there's been a genocide?

1:03:07I wouldn't use that term and And I would also reject the term genocide being used as some sort of ideological litmus test about whether you care about the lives of Palestinian people and kids. I think that the lives of Israelis and Palestinians are of equal worth and value. And that has always been my view. And I've always been someone who has been...

1:03:37Lewis Goodall:It's Gaza that was pounded for the best part of two years. Well, exactly. and I have spent time with survivors of October the 7th and I have spent time with survivors of the onslaught in Gaza too and I've spent time with those British doctors and at the time I and other cabinet colleagues were trying to get the government to recognize the state of Palestine and to take a tougher line on Israel's actions and I think potentially war crimes that they were committing and what you saw from Peter Mandelson reflected the brick wall that I was greeted with from far too many people in the government and when I sent that dossier around my cabinet colleagues as I promised the doctors that I would do so that people at senior levels of the government would know what they saw and we could respond appropriately as a government my motives were questioned and impugned and I was basically treated like a troublemaker rather than someone who was this country's health secretary with an actual responsibility for global health too but speaking up on behalf of and for British medics in Gaza and what you saw from Peter Mandelson reflected the brick wall that I and other members of the So who was impugning your motives?

1:05:00Lewis Goodall:The Prime Minister. The Prime Minister personally? Yes. You're saying when you tried to raise humanitarian issues in Gaza, the Prime Minister put up a blip wall against you and impugned your motives? When I sent that dossier around, the Prime Minister accused me of sending around a document that was designed to be leaked. Now, that might have been the way that the briefing operation against me in Downing Street worked, but you'll have noticed, Lewis, that until the messages were released this week, I didn't publish that dossier. I didn't leak that dossier. It wasn't about me trying to look good or morally superior.

1:05:34It was literally, I had met British doctors. I had been distressed by what they had told me. I had seen serious and substantial allegations of war crimes being committed. And I felt this country had a moral and legal responsibility to respond. And there are things and I am proud of the fact that I and others got the government to a place where we recognise the state of Palestine. I think we were right to sanction leading members of the Israeli government and right to sanction Israeli settlers involved in violence in the West Bank. I am only too sorry that it took that long to get to the right position, but it wasn't for want of trying on my part or others.

1:06:19And I also understand why other people were kind of saying, you know, in response to the messages coming out this week, well, why didn't he resign? And why didn't it? Well, because why would I pick up a placard when I had a position inside a government where I could affect change?

1:06:34Lewis Goodall:We were affecting change. It's a pretty serious charge you're making there. You're saying that the prime minister, you're saying that you drew attention to war crimes. What you're in your view, what you were being told were potential war crimes in Gaza. You drew the prime minister's attention to it and he chose to ignore it basically because he thought you were using it for political purposes. That is just a statement of fact. And it was unfair. What does that say about the Prime Minister's attitude towards Gaza? It was, he can answer that himself. But what he said to me on that day was unfair and untrue.

1:07:11And it was part of, you know, I think if you think back to what was going on, you know, when there was that kind of initial sort of Downing Street briefing operation and drive-by, Like that was it was in that sort of context, I think, that, you know, my my kind of motivations were being kind of challenged by the prime minister. And I found that quite hard personally, because I would I would have hoped if there's one thing people know about me by now, I'm not backwards and coming forwards. I am a straight shooter. I know I can put people's noses out of joints sometimes, but I say what I mean and mean what I say.

1:07:54and I in that moment and at that time I cannot tell you how difficult it was listening to people good people British doctors describe to me as their health secretary what they had witnessed and I felt both a moral duty to share it with my colleagues and with across the government to make sure that we knew what was going on. I wanted people to see it as they were making consequential decisions about whether this government would recognise a Palestinian state and what actions this government would take. Did the British government do enough on Gaza? Objectively, no. We were slow off the mark. And don't get me wrong, there are lots of things that we've done that I am proud of.

1:08:42The recognition, the sanctions and the Gaza medical evacuation scheme, which Zabir Ahmed, one of the ministers who resigned recently, did a really great job on. And to critics and cynics who say, well, you should have resigned, actually, I was doing something more important. I was shifting the government to a better position. You know what people say,

1:09:03Lewis Goodall:they'll say that now you're looking for left-wing votes, you're being far more vocal about Giles than you were before. I don't think that's true. Well, people will say it. Yeah, people will say that, but I just say, you know, and whether it's on, and you can look back, look back over the last 11 years during my time as a member of parliament look at what i've said on the floor of the house of commons yes i have always been a supporter of israel's right to exist and defend itself i do not believe that in order to be pro-palestinian you have to look the other way at hamas's evil and vindictive uh actions not just on october the 7th more broadly or hezbollah firing rockets at civilians or Iranian malevolence.

1:09:44So yeah, I'm absolutely robust on those issues. And I have been and have always been a friend of Israel, Israel's right to exist, to defend itself, and of my progressive friends in Israel who want to see a two-state solution. But I've also been consistent about Palestinian human rights. I've called for sanctions against Israeli settlements as a Labour backbencher donkeys years ago. The arguments I've been making in this campaign around a wealth tax that works and capital gains tax.

1:10:12Lewis Goodall:Well, they'll say that's another reason you do to the left. And I'd just point you back to what I said when I was last at Backbencher. Look at, you know, I'm sure it's a wealth, everyone's got their wealth-thumbed copy at home. You're going on a bit of a journey. No, look back at my Fabian Society pamphlet. You're not going on a journey? You're on a journey? You just go exactly where you've always been? Yeah, look, and honestly, if people have any doubt, and this will really set the online conspiracy theorists off because they all feel the Fabian... Oh, they don't need much. Well, they think the Fabian Society controls the world.

1:10:37I mean, we're a bunch of tote bag kind of, wearing sand or wearing liberal lefties. But go on the Fabian Society website, look at my pamphlet, Let Us Face the Future Again. You'll find my capital gains tax arguments in there. You'll find so many of the other things that I've been saying in recent weeks. You've not moved to the left. No, make no bones about it. I'm from the modernising wing of the Labour Party. Blairite? Still a Blairite? I'm not sure Tony Blair would agree with that at the moment. I'm from the revisionist wing of the Labour Party. and actually it is a long-standing proud tradition laid party that's where i am that's where my anchor is laid that is who i am as a politician i'm not going to pretend to be someone else i'm not going to tack left or right i'm going to be as consistent as i've always been you may not always agree with me you will always know where i stand one last thing one last person we must discuss and that's

1:11:26Lewis Goodall:the man that you're apparently waiting to start this leadership contest for which is andy burnham the mayor of greater manchester i don't know if you saw question time last night but he mentioned you very generously. This is what he said. Why don't you just say it straight out. I am campaigning this election. OK, you want to be MP for Makefield, but you want to get into number 10. This is your moment. Just quickly, because I want to move on. Come on. This is the time. I'm not somebody who gets ahead of myself. I can't do anything unless I'm lucky enough to get the support of people here. But if I get your support, I would seek to represent you at the highest possible level and give this constituency see maximum power and influence.

1:12:05I think Wes Streeting seems to have launched a leadership contest. So if that is running, I would seek to join it. But I'd have to persuade members of the Parliament to lay the party.

1:12:16Lewis Goodall:So he's waiting for you. That is the least newsworthy breaking news I've seen all year. Of course, Andy Burnham wants to be leader of the Labour Party. Why do we think he's put himself forward to be MP for Makerfield? It's not because he's got some more party parliamentary groups he wants to chair. Does he not really care about Makerfield? Surely he just Of course he does. But look, this is one of the bizarre features of the by-election in many respects, which is unique in British history. There I was knocking on doors in Makerfield. And I'll be back again campaigning for Andy. I've got no truck for some of these Labour MPs.

1:12:48Apparently, I saw it reported, they've seen him on Question Time. And some Starmer loyalists are now saying, well, that's it. I was going to go to Makerfield, but I'm not now. What, did you not realise until Question Time that Andy Burnham wanted to be Prime Minister? where have you been you said the PRP were great of course he does and that's well I think to be fair the overwhelming majority of Labour MPs have been and will be in maker field whether they are going to support Andy whether they support Keir whether they support me whether they support someone else like Andy's got to win because he is on the front line of the fight against reform and of course if Andy's back in Parliament and I hope he will be of course Andy Burnham should be a candidate for the Labour leadership.

1:13:28He's clearly got ideas, he's clearly got experience, and we will be better for it. And this brings me to the point about culture and how we conduct ourselves.

1:13:37Lewis Goodall:But he's saying something specific there, Wes. He's saying that you're campaigning for the leadership and that when you're in Parliament, if there is a contest that you have triggered, he'll get involved. He's not saying he'll trigger it, he's saying that he'll wait for you to trigger it. So can we assume that, therefore, Burnham gets in, let's say he is elected in Makeup Hill, Will you start that leadership contest that day when he's back? It wouldn't. Well, look, firstly, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of British politics in the Labour Party where people have looked to me to show leadership and say and do things that they agree with, but aren't prepared to do themselves.

1:14:10So fine. No problem with that. As for, you know, am I going to be there at 10pm on election night submitting my 81 nominations to the general secretary? I'm not going to be there at 10pm on election night I'm absolutely prepared to trigger a contest, I'm absolutely prepared to be a candidate in that contest well look, one of the reasons why I didn't trigger already is because I felt that if I'd gone ahead and looked like I was pulling a fast one while Andy Burnham is trying to get back into parliament it would have been no it's not and it would have been you sure? to quote Hamilton you ain't got the votes?

1:14:46I have got the votes and also it would have been a source of simmering resentment and illegitimacy so yes i put the best interests of the party and the best possible context contest first because ultimately if you if you back yourself and if you believe you're the right person with the right ideas you shouldn't fear a contest i don't fear a contest

1:15:09Lewis Goodall:i don't fear andy so if andy wins good for him so you still intend to ignite to start a leadership challenge yeah and i appreciate i'm the underdog i'm not i'm not i'm not daft so but burnham gets in and you're going to do it that week or the week after whatever game well i think that's i think that's a conversation to be had not just with andy but with other people who might haven't have an interest to work out between i think we've got to work i think we've got to behave and how we how we deal with what is unquestionably a difficult situation for the labour party how we conduct ourselves as individuals and collectively matters because it's not just a change of leadership and direction we need it's a change of culture and i want to move away from some of the toxicity and petty personality politics and petty factionism that has ground us down for far too number 10 talking about petty factionism uh number 10 a briefing increasingly that they are more and more confident that they could potentially if there is a leadership contest started by you Keir Starmer, a la the Jeremy Corbyn precedent, would go onto the ballot automatically wouldn't have to consult Labour MPs.

1:16:15Lewis Goodall:They're confident increasingly that he might be able to win that contest, not just against you, which they're very confident about, but against Andy Burnham. Well, if that's their view, knock yourself out. One thing I'd say... Would you like to see Keir Starmer in that contest? One thing I'd say, well, I don't have confidence in Keir Starmer continuing as Prime Minister, so I don't think he should put himself forward. But let me say this. I do think that if Keir Starmer is determined to stay on then he should give all of his ministers the freedom to nominate the person they think is best without resigning from government.

1:16:50That wouldn't be usual because if you're not supporting the Prime Minister you have to leave the government that's why I've left. But if he genuinely thinks he's got the support of all of his ministers let's put that to the test because I know that so many ministers have said directly to him and through their whips in the proper way I think the prime minister's time up is he shouldn't carry on and the the other thing I weighed up the other week when I resigned and you know it wasn't it was primarily if I go now Andy Burnham's about to have a by-election this will look completely self-serving and it would be completely self-serving it's not the right thing to do but the other thing is a lot of people who supported me are serving ministers so you'd end up actually replicating some of what we saw under the conservatives where you have like an education secretary like three three education secretaries over three days or whatever it was under the Tories we so if Keir is putting the country first and he believes he's the best person to lead the party in the country give your ministers the freedom to nominate whoever they want without causing that instability of people having to leave their jobs and we will it will be very interesting to see whether 100 of ministers or indeed 100 of the cabinet want this prime minister to continue um serve in a burnham government yeah

1:18:09Lewis Goodall:of course i would yeah you'd like to if it came to that well i'd like andy burnham to serve in my government that's a job for him it's a bit no i think consistent with what andy just said they're on uh question time like let's not get ahead of ourselves and i'm the underdog in this race i know that but i've also got um an argument i've got ideas and i've got a pitch that i want to put to the party if i'm the best candidate i'll win will you stand no matter what i can take it on the stand no matter what i you won't there will be no coronation i think the problem with a coronation and this for me is a is like kind of a principal thing i think we will all be better off if we're tested and i as much as i love even with the paralysis i love it i love it well it doesn't it doesn't even doesn't need to be lengthy and drawn out i do think we will be better to have our ideas tested and i know included by the summer conference well i've got i think i've got i've known andy burnham a long time and i've seen him a long time i think i've got a measure of him and i think i've got a measure of his strengths what i'm not clear on and people would probably say the same thing about me as well what exactly is your platform then and you know i've set out some of my ideas in recent weeks there's a lot more to come and he's fighting a by-election at the moment, he wants to set out his platform.

1:19:20There may be other people who want to come forward as well. So 100 % you're standing. It should be a contest of the best candidates. I'm absolutely putting myself forward. That's exactly what I'm doing, yeah. 100%. Yeah.

1:19:29Lewis Goodall:I don't know how many more times I can say yes. No, I know. Look, I'm like the Labour left. Can't say yes for an answer. What's the biggest, just funny, what's the biggest philosophical difference between you and Burnham, would you say? I don't know that this is... Is this a philosophical difference?

1:19:48And there'll be other differences, but I'm mindfully as a by-election candidate, so I'm not going to say anything.

1:19:55Lewis Goodall:Well, I don't expect you to back Rob Kenyon, if that's what we're going to say. No, no, but one thing that has always slightly grated with me in terms of Andy's argument and analysis of the country is the sort of the North-South divide. because I would absolutely agree with him like when you look at things like transport investment and infrastructure but you can you can see that you can see that but I'd also say come with me to the edge of my constituency in Haynall where there are high levels of child poverty and you're it's we're on the edge of London so you're on the top of the London basin You can see on a clear day into the city.

1:20:43You can see Canary Wharf. You can see the City of London, two of the richest places on earth. Those opportunities feel as far away from kids in my constituency in poverty. Or where you grew up, which is even close. Yeah, on Manchester. And yeah, I could see from the top of my block of flats the city of London. And that was a world away from where I was. Come with me to the estuary towns of Kent and you will find people who feel the same resentment towards London and the inequality in our country and the way you would find in the old cotton mill towns around Manchester. And as for infrastructure, come with me down to Cornwall.

1:21:19Come with me down to Devon. And you'll find the same people saying, hang on a minute. You could be Mayor of London. You could be Mayor of London. Look down here.

1:21:24Lewis Goodall:Have you thought about that? Mr London? If he's Mr Manchester, you could be Mr London. Ever thought about being Mayor of London, Wes, if it all goes wrong? That kind of sharp intake of breath you could hear from somewhere outside of the studio was Dawn Butler going, don't you dare. I've staked my claim. If Sadiq's going, I'm running. But, no, look, I'm... Being Mayor of London, it's a great platform and job. and what it's it's really look up look up look at what um sadiq is doing and look at like the sort of issues you're responsible for really important but that my passions in politics and and life and around you know how do we make sure power wealth opportunity is spread and how do you make sure fundamentally that working class kids growing up from backgrounds like mine have the same choices and chances and opportunities as those from the privileged backgrounds mayor of London has some levers but not the fundamental ones and that's why I'm in Westminster.

1:22:22Lewis Goodall:Is this all part Wes, as Peter Mandelson says it's not all part of your midlife crisis is it? Your early midlife crisis that he's accused you of having? Well that's obviously why I'm wearing a three quarters it, this is just the latest manifestation of the midlife crisis, I mean I'm sure I will live with the criticism. Wes reading absolute pleasure. I've been called worse By Peter Mandelson By you, pleasure

1:23:02Lewis Goodall:Well, I think he is, I think it's fair to say, a man unburdened. You can't say he's not a politician saying what he thinks. He is, whatever you think of the two men, such a contrast with Keir Starmer, precisely for that reason. Precisely because, for good or ill, and maybe it's a bit of both, he is a politician to his fingertips. A politician, whatever he says, who seems to be on a bit of a journey. His great hero, the Australian Labour leader and Prime Minister, Paul Keating, reportedly told him that he should never waste a minute in politics. whatever you think of him, by placing himself so centrally in the arena, in the conversation, the gamble he's taken, clearly, in his own mind at least, he is following Keating's advice.

1:23:51Lewis Goodall:That is it from all of us on the newsagents for this week. Thanks as ever to our fearless production team, who never ever wastes a moment. Perish the Thoughts, Shane Fennelly, Michaela Walters, Natalie Inge, Arvin Butterwell, Anna Georgievich, Jess Williamson, Mikey Baggs and Lizzie Ward. Our executive producer is Louis Degenhardt. Our editor is Tom Hughes. It's presented by Emily Maitlis, John Sopel and me, Lewis Goodall. We will be back on Monday. Have a lovely weekend. This has been a Global Player original production.