Wes Streeting resigns: Is the challenge over - or just beginning?

0:01This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:30With breaking news, the health secretary, Wes Streeting, has handed in his letter of resignation to the prime minister. That letter coming into us here at Sky. That is what we call a resignation letter. Wes Streeting has stepped back, stepped down from being the health secretary. What he hasn't done so far is launch his counter bid at becoming leader and prime minister. So West Streeting is now was Streeting. But what are the cues that people are going to pick up from this? Are other cabinet ministers going to resign? Is Andy Burnham coming back? Or does this mess just go on and on with Starmer's authority shrinking by the day?

1:17Welcome to the News Agents.

1:23The News Agents. It's John. It's Meatless. It's Lewis. And we're recording this just after half past one on Thursday. And Westminster, the news has ricocheted around Westminster that Wes Streeting has, after all of that build up, finally decided to resign. He has sent a letter to the Prime Minister, which is both a series of compliments to himself on his own record as health secretary, but also basically a character assassination of the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, accusing him of failing to take responsibility for the failings of his own government. He says in the letter, where we need vision, we have vacuum.

2:03Where we need direction, we have drift. He says that he always fails to take responsibility for his own failings and that too often that has meant other people falling on their swords. He says he has a heavy-handed approach to dissenting voices, saying it diminishes our politics in the process and he reaches his climax by saying it is clear now that you will not lead the Labour Party into the next general election and that Labour MPs and Labour unions want to debate about what comes next for the battle of ideas. Crucially, he does not say, however, in the letter that he is challenging the Prime Minister for the leadership.

2:46And I've been told by a source close to West Streeting that he will not be challenging today and that the letter addresses the reason why he wants, he says, to have the widest, and this is a very intriguing bit, the widest possible number of voices as part of that contest. And he wants to lead the debate, for now at least it seems, from the back benches. So let's just read between the lines on that a bit, because it was heavily touted last night into this morning that Wes Streeting would be announcing his challenge to Keir Starmer this morning. And curiously, when we were all gathered on our editorial morning call at 9.30, I said I can just see a scenario where he resigns, but he doesn't challenge.

3:30And it sounded ridiculous as I was saying it. Why would you resign to not challenge? But I do think that Wes has probably realised that he has ended up in a situation where, as discussed, he has seen others parachute out the plane ahead of him, i.e. resign. And he hasn't yet done that, even though they were his close allies. he's had his conversation with the Prime Minister a very short one we know where presumably he took some of this to Keir and said I don't think you're the man to lead us into the next election or to lead us any further and simultaneously has not found the numbers to actually give him the heft he needs the 81 he needs to go off and launch his own leadership challenge and there was talk last night around Westminster to be frank that Wes's people were calling up people who were not necessarily in the Wes street in camp and saying, would you like to come on board?

4:27And at that point, it started to become a little bit clearer to some of us that he was struggling, I think struggling to find the numbers. And so here we have this kind of ridiculous stasis in some places, which is, yes, he's left his job. He's not going for it. He's not ruling out that if somebody else went in ahead of Keir, you know, to challenge Keir, he would also stand. But also leaving himself room, presumably to be part of what? An eventual Burnham team. Right. Well, you don't know. I mean, it's kind of the old kind of political slogan that he who wields the knife never wears the crown.

5:06Not true. I mean, he sort of wielded the knife, but hasn't isn't quite going for it. It adds to this sense of just mess about the last four days where you knew something was awry. There have been plots. There have been kind of stalking horses. And apparently the stalking horse from last week, you know, Catherine West saying, I'll be a stalking horse. She's gone on the radio today and said, I think there should be a leadership contest. And I think Keir Starmer will win it. I think more. She might vote for him. and she might vote for him. And you just think, oh, for God's sake, please, can someone organise a coup here and get it done swiftly?

5:48Because at the moment, it's not swift. It's a mess. Starmer limps on, but for how much longer? Honestly, the one person who seems to have enjoyed this week, bizarrely, is Keir Starmer. I was looking at him during the King's speech yesterday, in the Commons, cracking out the jokes, taking on Kemi Badenock, and he seemed at his most robust for absolutely weeks. And there is something funny about this, which is that maybe he's saying, come on, if you want to take me on, come on. And no one is. So far, no one is. Obviously, we don't know if Burnham has or hasn't got his seat. We don't know if where's will or won't challenge.

6:24We don't know if Angela Rayner, who has just come forward and say, I've cleaned up the tax affairs. I'm fine. I could go for it. That's fine. It's all in the ether. But nobody's taken him on. Just very briefly, that one of the things that I think is really Labour List produced the kind of, you know, poll of Labour Party members about how each person would square up in a contest against Starmer. And Starmer versus West Streeting must have made for really depressing reading for West Streeting in that Labour Party members would give 53 % to Starmer and only 23 % to Streeting. So Starmer would absolutely kill Streeting in a head to head contest.

7:08Not the same story if it's Starmer versus Rayner. Not the same story if it's Starmer versus Miliband. And so it goes on and certainly not the same story if it's Starmer versus Andy Burnham. On these Labour list numbers, you know, Burnham would absolutely crush Keir Starmer in a head to head contest. If all it's worth, Team Streeting always cite that they have their own polling, which shows that actually Streeting is far more popular with the members. Well, last night they had their own polling that said he had the 81 votes that were necessary to charge. Well, indeed. Look, I think I think what's happened here is that West Streeting has made the best of a bad job, because I think he rightly will have concluded that given the speculation, given the fact that they had allowed the impression to build and build and build that he was going to resign, that if he didn't resign at this point, if he had gone back with a tail tucked between the legs and actually said, you know what, I'm going to stay in the cabinet.

8:05I've had a word with the prime minister and he gets it. That frankly, his political reputation would have been irrecoverable. That he would have been lessened to the point of non-existence. Because you can't be a general, you can't lead from behind. Yes, exactly. And so I think that they have concluded, probably know that they don't have the numbers. I suspect earlier in the week, they had hoped that he would be able to generate the numbers. It didn't happen. And so he was basically confronted with a choice of going back, basically destroying your own political reputation, being forever known as a bottler.

8:36As I say, I think there is almost no member of the cabinet who has cultivated their impression and their reputation with the press than where streeting has had. And so I think he has concluded that the best thing that he could do, even if he doesn't have the numbers, is to basically do a Michael Heseltine, which is walk out of the cabinet, set himself up as a king over the water, try and cultivate, continue to cultivate his profile and his reputation, both in the country, the party at large, but also within the parliamentary Labour Party, and hope, and this could happen, hope that something else comes along, which knocks Keir Starmer off course, and until Andy Burnham is in Parliament, that he has established himself as the primary heir apparent.

9:21There is another interpretation of it that someone in the government was putting to me, less friendly to him, I think it's fair to say. This is what's happened. Wes didn't have the numbers. He spent them all morning trying to persuade Cabinet to move against Keir and failed. He now thinks over the medium term, the best way to collect real numbers is to resign. But in fact, he has royally, royally fucked it. Look, I got a message on Monday, i.e. four days ago, at 9.20 in the morning from a team, Wes, just saying if Wes doesn't go today, he doesn't have the numbers, right? So there were people around him who thought that he would come up with the numbers by lunchtime on Monday.

10:02And the fact that we are still talking about it on Thursday and the fact that, frankly, of those 81 or whatever that signed up to the sort of the anti-Kia numbers that we got earlier this week, that tells you everything you need to know because there would be many more if 81 of those were just worth treating alone, right? So I think, look, maybe he still throws his hand in. We don't know. You know, we've said on this podcast that we are all hostage to fortune because things happen the whole time and sometimes they're not the thing that you thought were going to happen at that exact moment. But as things stand, we've got a health secretary who has resigned from his job as health secretary on the day that not only are the health figures looking like one of the most remarkable things for the government, but the economy, the figures in the economy, the GDP have just come out showing the UK at the top of the G7 table on 0.6%.

10:53Another reason for Keir Starmer to actually feel, well, this is not actually a bad week so far. Although it is a week where his authority within the Labour Party is shattered and is not recoverable, in my view. I mean, when we look at what the unions have said, when we look at what the PLP has said, we look at the fact there's now been a series of resignations. I do think that one thing that has happened this week, it is clear that Starmer, one way or another, is on borrowed time. And my big question now, I think two questions, one is less important and one more important. One is, obviously, streeting's going to have to be replaced, so does Starmer use this as an opportunity to try and flex a bit of prime ministerial authorities show that there's still something left and have a wider reshuffle?

11:31I suspect not, but you never know. And then the second question is, I don't think necessarily the drama of today might be over because for me, all eyes now on Andy Burnham. We have been briefed all week that Andy Burnham has got a seat and he's got a plan for getting back into Parliament. If he were to say today, after Wes Streeting has resigned, after Wes Streeting said in that letter, appeared to give an almost tacit endorsement to Burnham saying that this contest needs to be broad and it needs the best possible field of candidates? Would the Prime Minister, would Keir Starmer really still have the strength and authority to resist it?

12:04I think if he did all hell would break loose in the Labour Party. So, over to you Andy Burnham. No, he puts Andy into the Lords and then makes him the Health Secretary. That's not going to happen. You know, there's been so much bloody briefing going on over the past 72, 96 hours about what's happening and who's going to move and what the numbers are and all the rest of it. But, you know, in the midst of all this kind of briefing and counter-briefing, was the line that actually I might not move today because the rest of the cabinet is about to move against Starmer and you think that you know that must be a possibility that there will be others who will go well where streeting has gone you don't want to see a mass resignation you know do you need to come out and accept that the timetable for your departure has to be announced I think that Starmer is still absolutely stubbornly maybe arrogantly maybe imperiously rejecting that because I think that that is what would calm things down a bit but I think that this goes on now I just think that there's no okay well West Streeting has gone would be a reshuffle we'll have a new health secretary and it will all quiet down.

13:12Yeah but it's brought him time I mean that's the point. Yeah maybe. You know how long a by-election can take I mean he needs to find the seat, they need to move the writ, you know, plan the day, all the rest of it, sort out what's going to happen in Manchester, sort out what's going to happen to the contest for the mayoralty as well. I mean, that could take him to September, October, right? It could buy him the summer. It could buy him space to see what he can do in that time. And that's probably enough for Starmer right now. And that's precisely why a week I've been saying that, you know, Starmer's best move to guarantee himself a few months or at least and see what happens is to accede to Burnham's request.

13:48But Burnham will never have a better moment. If he's got a plan and it's not just briefing and nothing, if he's got a plan he will never have a better moment to force the Prime Minister to accede to it than today. So it really is over to him. I think Keir Starmer is Iran right now. You know, there's an Ayatollah. There has been an assumption that when the going got tough, Keir would surrender and OK, I'm going, I'll reopen the Strait of Hormuz. My nuclear The proliferation has been shot. Yeah. And instead of which, Keir Starmer said, no, I'm not going. You want it? Yeah. I've got squatters rights in here.

14:25I'm not surrendering. I'm not going to do anything that you're asking. I agree. I think there's a I mean, whether or not you think that he is politically the best person to take Labour into the next election. There is a steeliness this week, which I think is quite admirable. There is something that we've seen. I have to say that we didn't say that about Boris Johnson when he was clinging on, even though his parliamentary authority had gone defying parliamentary convention. I mean, look, the fact is... And I think it's relevant that that came after a parliamentary ethics inquiry into his actual behaviour, into his lying to Parliament, his misleading Parliament and party game.

15:01And many of his MPs are deeply, deeply, will never forgive him for appointing Peter Manilson. And there have been scandal after scandal after scandal. So, yeah, of course, we can say that maybe Boris Johnson deserved it more. All I'm saying is both men were defying parliamentary convention, which is that once you lose the confidence of your MPs you really ought to go and not just cling to the process. But we all know that the whips have got easily way more than that. You've been saying that all week. You've been saying if it's 80 it could be three times that. But actually on the maths of it, as we discussed if you've got 403...

15:33The foreign secretaries, the home secretaries told him senior members of his cabinet have told him he knows that the whips have got at least another 50 or more MPs who also want him to go. So he knows the unions, all 11 unions affiliated to the Labour Party have gone. He knows he's lost the confidence of the parliamentary Labour Party. He knows he's lost the confidence of the party in the country. He's clinging to the rule book of the Labour Party because in Keir Starmer's view, unless a coup is filled out in triplicate, it hasn't really happened. All I'm talking about is the tipping point. Boris Johnson and he are the same in this.

16:05They've both lost the confidence of the Commons and they're refusing to go. It's arrogant. But politics is about psychology and it's all about the tipping point. there are people who went towards the door because they thought he was going to fall. And if he's not going to fall, then they actually want to walk their way back from it because they think, well, you know, let's just see where we are in three months time. Lewis, you read that paragraph out in the letter where, you know, you've never taken responsibility for anything. Too many people have been forced to fall upon their swords. That resonates.

16:35I've spoken to so many people who've just said that is Keir Starmer's modus operandi there's always someone else to blame I think that there is a you used the phrase yesterday Lewis that well yeah he's a hard bastard and that's what he likes to project well he described himself that way yeah he described himself that way and it was talking in terms of football and being a midfield defender or whatever but I also think that he's not just a hard bastard I mean he's a mean minded bastard in the sense that he's he's been very happy to let other people take the rap and it was most visible with the Ollie Robbins sacking.

17:15But there have been other people too who have worked in Downing Street kind of 18 hours a day trying to make things as good as they can. And when something goes to shit you know they get the blame for it. Starmer kicks them out and Starmer tries to walk free from it. And I think there's only so much of that you can do before you get people like West Streeting or Jess Phillips coming out and saying, no, you've you've talked the talk. You're a good man. But actually, there are bits of you which are really not that nice. And I think that that is coming. Just Phillips made it very clear, didn't she, in that letter?

17:49It was about this kind of just painful incrementalism that she is somebody who speaks from the heart, who wants to see action, who wants to get stuff done. And she wants the fight taken to the tech companies. Above all else, she wants things sorted out. And actually, I think she looked at the legislative plan more than anything else and was like, oh, come on, come on. But that's magnified across every government department where people are thinking, come on, Starmer, make a bloody decision on this. I'm just saying it's a different question than what you're saying. The thing is now, and this is why I think what Burnham does is so important, is that in a weird way, all week and the last few weeks, we've been talking about the idea that different factions of the Labour Party who want to displace Keir Starmer have different kind of incentives on the timetable for doing so.

18:33It's always been the case, we say, well, West Streeting has an incentive to go more quickly because, well, Burnham's not in Parliament. Angela Rayner, HMRC investigation again. You know, Burnham obviously wants a longer timetable. Now you've basically got all of those factions, from the right of the party to West Streeting, the soft left and the left, all now united on one position. And this includes West Streeting now, which is the Prime Minister must set out a timetable. So my question is, is that given that is clearly now the overwhelming, I think, opinion of the parliamentary Labour Party, certainly a clear majority anyway, how long can the prime minister resist that effort to set out a timetable?

19:10I mean, last night we were told, you know, one of the stars of the new intake, Josh McAllister, you know, very white, respected young MP, literally going up to the prime minister in the House of Commons saying, prime minister, one of his ministers, you have to set out a timetable. well, why haven't you done so? Keir Starmer can run from that for a while, but he can't hide from it.

19:34From a range of trusted voices and award-winning journalists. Good morning, I'm Nick Ferrari. It's time to get to your calls. Find out the latest news and hear every side of the story. So just as I take responsibility for the results, I also take responsibility for delivering the change that we promised for a stronger and fairer Britain that we must build. Nah, he's still toast. He's just wasting our time now. The words of two in a growing list of Labour MPs whose patience with the Prime Minister has run dry. Is there anything he said or can say to make you want him to stay? Listen on our free Global Player app or the LBC app.

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20:50So Sky News has reported this morning that Nigel Farage bought a house for£1.4 million in cash. Nice if you can do that. At a time when he had just received£5 million in cash from the Thai crypto billionaire. And of course, what we were told by reform and by Nigel Farage himself was that actually the money from Mr Harbourn, this five million pounds donation, was to pay for his personal security for the rest of his life because of the threats that he faced as being a public figure. and we know that there's a parliamentary investigation underway but your personal protection on 1.4 million for a house to be fair a house is very secure yeah bricks and mortar it keeps you very secure and just to give you the reform line um which is that the process of purchasing the property came before the gift in other words they are saying that actually it might It looked like it on paper that he got the money and then he got the house.

22:08But actually, the whole process of starting to buy the property came before the money. Yeah. And anyone who's ever bought a house has been through this where there is that whole question. The estate agent says, well, can you show proof of funds that you have got a letter from the mortgage company or whoever it happens to be? Or that you have got money sitting in your bank account? £1.4 million in your bank account. Or£1.4 million in your bank account. But of course, you know, it's one thing showing that you may have a facility of a mortgage loan. It's another thing to suddenly have one point four million available.

22:43And of course, that is just going to sharpen the questions into Nigel Farage's finances, which is a place he does not want to go. Yeah. And he's claiming once again, predictably enough, that this is a sort of media witch hunt and that there are no questions to answer. and it's all been absolutely satisfactorily accounted for. But, you know, it is one thing and quite an extraordinary thing. We've never had anything like it before, like we were saying on the show yesterday, for reform to be so financially dependent or for any political party to be so financially dependent on one donor. £12 million alone last year from Christopher Harbourn with potentially more to come.

23:23Another thing, again, for the leader of that party. OK, he was not an MP quite at the time, but to receive five million in apparently unconditional gift from the same person. Another thing, again, to be told that this is all for the purposes of security. And as we said yesterday, it isn't entirely clear whether there may even be more money that has been given because reform won't say. I mean, this question of whether or not it has been used exclusively for security, and even if it was, it doesn't stop the questions about it, but maybe it makes it a bit more straightforward. I mean, I've asked loads of reform politicians over the last few weeks about whether they can provide evidence for that.

24:02And if they are able to do so, why wouldn't they do so just to nullify any potential complaints about it? I asked Richard Tice, the deputy chairman, about it on local election night last week. This is what he said. All sorts of things. But the reality is he's complied with the rules. Why wouldn't he do it? If he's got nothing to hide, why wouldn't he do it? Because you'll never be satisfied, Lewis. No. He's complied with the rules. would be satisfied if he did that. At the end of the day, Nigel's security and safety is a matter for him. I believe... So show us the receipts. I believe it's in the national interest.

24:34If the state was going to turn around, which it could have done and it decided not to... OK, so if the state... OK, so if Shibana McMood... We will provide security. That's a different matter. OK, so if Shibana McMood turns around tomorrow and goes, actually, you know what, Nigel Farage, we will provide your security. Would he give the five million back? Well, the reality is the state's already refused it, so he had no choice. That's the point, Lewis. OK. The other point is, you seem to be missing the point is, we're in the middle of election night. And guess what? We're going to be the massive winners.

25:02Sure. Voters up and down the country, they know that under Nigel's leadership, then we can run our councils well. And then when a general election comes, they're giving a very clear signal they want to reform government. And it is precisely because of your success, Richard Tyson, these elections and the fact you've led in so many polls and the fact that it looks like you could form the next government and Nigel Farage should be the next prime minister, don't you think we ought to be absolutely certain, this country deserves to be absolutely certain, that he is not in any way, that he is in no way beholden upon a rich crypto billionaire who doesn't even live in this country?