What will Burnham's Britain actually look like?

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1:03This is a global production. This is the essential difference with Andy Burnham. He's normal. He can speak human. He's charismatic. So I could go on of the things where Andy Burnham has said one thing, and now he's kind of in full-scale retreat as he's become the MP for Makerfield as the next Prime Minister. It will probably make the difference between saving the Labour Party from extinction. We don't know what his plans are for defence or for welfare or for taxation. We don't know anything. I don't feel sorry for a failed politician who's fucked it up. I'm afraid not. Thank you very much. Tatty bye.

1:42Farewell. It's been an absolute pleasure and a treat. And let us move on. We haven't yet heard directly from Andy Burnham, but we're wondering if this is what the Andy Burnham premiership might soon start to sound like. That is the Member of Parliament, Karl Turner, an ally of Andy Burnham. For all that we heard the bromides yesterday about we all owe Keir Starmer a great debt and we should be thankful to him. Is this the authentic voice of what the Labour Party is thinking today? It's time to move on. Welcome to the News Agents.

2:24The News Agents. It's John. It's Maitless. And we left you yesterday, just before the King of the North had arrived at Westminster, before he was sworn in, before he hailed his arrival with a selfie in Westminster Hall, surrounded by 200 of his best mates. all the MPs that decided they wanted to literally get behind Andy Burnham. One of those in the crowd was Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor who decided she would not appear outside her own front door, waving off the Prime Minister himself in his resignation speech. And overnight, we've also had a lot of correspondence from you, from our viewers, from our listeners, saying, did you lot do all this?

3:11Is this the media's fault? Did you get rid of a good man because you wanted a bit more energy? It's a really interesting question about whether Keir Starmer was the author of his own demise or it was the forces in the British media. Personally, I think it's overdone. Keir Starmer had agency. I don't think the media barons exercised the same power as once they did. But we're now in the position where Keir Starmer is dead. And, you know, you talk about Westminster Hall. It was in Westminster Hall where the Queen lay in state. And, you know, when the Queen died, the Queen is dead. Long live the King.

3:49And we are seeing that in politics now where long live the new King, Andy Burnham. And that is why 200 MPs wanted to be part of that photograph, wanted to be in a position where they could say, oh, look, I'm loyal to you, Andy Burnham. Will you give me a job? That is politics as we see it today. Now, there's a huge amount we still don't know about what Andy Burnham might do if and when he becomes prime minister. But his allies are rolling the pitch. They're getting the ground ready for when he takes over. Yeah, but I think the don't knows still outweigh the knows, frankly. We don't know what he thinks about foreign policy, about defence spending.

4:31We don't know what he thinks about Trump or his relationship with Europe or indeed Ukraine. We don't know what he'd do on taxation or welfare. And Keir Starmer has in some ways set him his first trap because he is trying to push on with spending proposals to NATO, the very proposals over which John Healy, his defence secretary, resigned just 10 days ago because they weren't forthcoming. is Keir Starmer trying to put this in place for his own legacy or to make Burnham decide if he's going to tear it all up or carry on? Well, let us speak to Karl Turner, who is the MP for Hull East. I didn't say the Labour MP for Hull East because he kind of was stripped of that title because he had been gobbing off in his terms about certain things to do with the Prime Minister and ended up being a trenchant critic of Keir Starmer.

5:32Carl Tanner, let's start with that criticism that has come that it's all the media's fault and not about Keir Starmer. What do you make of that? Well, it was the fact that Keir Starmer's not very good. That is the real truth. He struggled from, I think, the very outset, even in opposition. I think he struggled with the management of the party. he wasn't a leader who would mingle with members of the PLP he had a certain few, a few of his close people I was included in that to an extent and there would be a few of us, probably half a dozen had his mobile number and that would be it really and he would begrudge going into the tea room and sort of Did he use it Carl?

6:15Did you talk to him on I did actually and up to the point where he was well into his premiership probably 12 months in we would text each other regularly and we had a good relationship until things started to go very badly and for me the thing was the jury trial concealment stuff because I just thought that was the worst That was very late though Let's just go back a bit Do you think you owe him your seat? Because he came in with this astonishing majority That didn't come out of nowhere, right? Well, the truth of that one is my majority went down under Keir Starmer's leadership in the 2024 general election.

6:53He'd gone up a bit under Corbyn, went back down, and then went down a bit again, I think, under Keir Starmer. So there was no love for Keir Starmer in my patch. It was strange, actually, because I was never a fan of Jeremy Corbyn. But in some parts of my constituency, the parts where I would, not disparagingly, but I would describe them as the frothy coffee, drinking, guardian, reading, lefty liberal type of areas. That doesn't sound remotely dispogee, no. There's not very many of them, but there are a few little pockets. They love Jeremy, but universally Kia is disliked in my area. Just explain this for me, and we were trying to talk about it a little bit earlier, which is, I understand that people were dissatisfied, didn't think he was up to the job, all those things but it went way further than that with Starmer and I don't understand or I struggle to understand the profound antipathy there is towards him kind of really hatred almost I think that's true and it is surprising I think what people spoke to with me regularly was the fact that he kept changing his mind he promised one thing and then changed his mind and I think the difficulty was, he was making promises before he was the leader of the party, and with the advent of social media, that's the clips that are constantly used, and then him saying the exact opposite almost, once he was in number 10 Downing Street.

8:23So I could give you a couple of examples, but they're out there, and I think that was his... Go on, what was the thing that, I mean, you're going to say winter fuel, aren't you? Well, student loans and so on, that was a big thing that he offered, had promised he was trying to win the membership, he was trying to win favour with the co-ministors in the party, there was plenty of them and he was doing the right thing to try and win the leadership. But then of course when it was manifesto time or even the run up to the general election before a manifesto was ever put to paper, he would be already saying, oh no we've had a think.

8:57And that was a problem. We've got the same right now with Andy Burnham. Waspy women, what he says about the bond markets, fiscal rules. I could go on of the things where Andy Burnham has said one thing and now he's in full-scale retreat as he gets he's become the MP for Makerfield and is the next Prime Minister. Well I don't think that's right. I think it is true that he's described as flip-flop. That's not my experience of Andy Burnham. Honestly it's not. I worked on his campaign in 2015. There was decisions he made on that campaign which was a bit of a surprise to me. Mike Duggar Michael Duggar was the guy leading the campaign and one example was when Unite the Union offered to support Andy Burnham for that leadership bid.

9:38It meant a lot of money. Every bit of money he needed for that campaign, Unite, Len McCluskey, was on the phone saying you can have that support. And Burnham just said it didn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. There was discussion at the time about the party, the direction the party was going in, whether it was going to be dragged to the left because of our association with trade unions. He made a decision which I thought was the wrong decision at the time, but it was a decision which he was absolutely determined to. But, Carl, that's a nice story you just told about Burnham. You haven't addressed John's question, which is, we've just had the waspy women thing.

10:19Are you going to pay out to these women who think that they're demanding, you know, demand huge sums of money? And one day it was yes, and then 24 hours later, even less, oh, my God, what am I walking into? No way. Well, look, I would be careful if I was in what is essentially an election in a by-election, but when my audience is a bigger audience, i.e. the country. And that was his problem, I think, and I think that's why the team around him, Louise Egg and Annalise Midgley, were keeping him away from the press, probably, because it is a difficult scenario. You can say something in a leadership, it's rather in a by-election, which you're going to have to address once you're in number 10.

11:02And the reality was, I think most people knew he was going to number 10 Downing Street, whether it was due to the fact that he had won an election for leader or whether he was just sort of coronated, which is where we are now. Carl, are you saying nice things about Andy Burnham now? Just because you're a politician and you know which side your bread is buttered, You might get the whip back. Isn't this just, oh, people are going to be throwing things at the radio, at the television, listening to you in these terms? John, I'm a socialist for a start, and I think Burnham probably is as well. I don't think Keir was.

11:35I think the biggest frustration for me with Keir's timer is you genuinely did not know what he believed in. You couldn't put your finger on what it was. If I went into a room with Keir and said, tell me what it is, he wouldn't be able to verbalise the stuff that was in his head. But he could read it if somebody had written it down. Carl, you know the joke that's going around, that the Blairite, the Brownite and the Corbynite walk into a bar and the barman says, what would you like, Mr Burnham? Yeah, well, it is a joke which I tend to chuckle at when I hear it. But, look, it's got an ability to sort of speak to people in a way that others don't.

12:14I think he's got the Boris Johnson effect to a degree. And I think that matters. And let me explain a bit better. No, I don't think we do. But I think there is a lot of pressure on candidates, if there are any other candidates, to have something like an ustings or something. But I don't think it's necessary, personally. But it is a difficult thing nowadays in politics. I think the advent of social media, 24-7 stuff, it is difficult. Society is very demanding. People want instant happiness. You can go on that thing now. I can put my iPhone on and order an item. it's delivered by tea time this evening that is the type of speed people expect things to be delivered at and it's extended into politics I think so I think it's very difficult at the moment for politicians and I think Burnham will have an ability to speak human to the PLP which is an incredibly important starting point because he can get that 5 billion on the DWP stuff easily every day of the week because it's the way he will manage the Parliamentary Labour Party.

13:24If there's money needed, he can get it because it's the way he does his business. And I think that's crucial. Starmer, on the other hand, there was no pitch rolling. There was no pre-discussion. There was no sort of speaking to people involved in certain campaigns. WIP at the time, Vicky Foxcroft, incredibly well-regarded WIP. She'd been shadow minister in opposition as a disability Secretary Shadow Minister. She resigned as a whip. Starmer ought to have been going to the likes of Vicky Foxcroft and said, talk to me about what we need to do. None of that. It mattered. So, quick question then. Does Andy Burnham have to stick to Keir Starmer's manifesto?

14:07Is it a Labour manifesto or is it a Starmer manifesto? Well, it's a Labour manifesto, but there'll be pressure from the media and elsewhere. Look, I was tweeting and gobbing off and shouting and bawling. Every time the Prime Minister changed under the previous government saying you've got to have a general election you've no mandate, we're bound to do it but actually constitutionally it's not true. But just back to the manifesto what should he, what do you want him to drop now that is on target, that's happening at the moment I mean obviously you don't want juries to disappear from trials, that was the thing that got you suspended does he have to be braver does he have to, I mean should he be ending the triple lock which is what Jim O 'Neill has said should he be borrowing a lot more to invest what are the things that you'd be saying this is your clean slate moment if I was advising on the triple lock I would be advising to be incredibly cautious I think I'm right in saying that 340 billion is the spend in the department and I think something of the order of 170 odd billion is the pension.

15:12However, the same mistake can easily be made when you're attacking people who've grafted all of their lives to get something like, what is it, a thousand quid a month or something, the standard state pension. It ain't a fortune. And I think I would be very cautious to go down that road. So you're saying leave it alone? I think I would probably leave it alone. But he's talking about wealth taxes and other areas where you can tax, where it will be a fairer system. Look, I've got a pal who's a very wealthy guy. He's earned his money in the law. He often says to me, why am I paying tax at a low rate than my cleaning lady?

15:56And actually he is. I mean, he's paying an awful lot more, of course he is. But he's paying at corporation rates. She's paying PAYE and the rate is higher for her it does seem unfair and it wouldn't be too much money Oh tax take in the country it's 38 % and you know Carl you know there are plenty of people who are just waiting for the next trigger to say sod this I'm off I'm out of the country I was creating wealth I was creating jobs I was creating investment I was running a successful company sod that frankly I can do it somewhere else I think you're right and that is the worry Look, I mean, this stuff with the NI increases for employers, it was a barmy idea.

16:38And when the Tories say this is a tax on jobs, I'm in the back benches nodding, saying it's a tax on jobs. People come to me, businesses, not for profits. And the minimum wage? I mean, you know, I've got kids who are in their 20s who say the minimum wage has stopped them getting jobs now in hospitality. They can't even walk into a bar and serve pints because it's much harder now for kids to get jobs. My view is Andy should be looking at that, actually, which is not very Labour. It will upset Parliamentary Labour Party members. But I think when the minimum wage for a younger person is similar to an adult person...

17:19Yeah, to your chef or to your pot washer or to somebody who's in their 40s. I think you've got a problem. I think you've got a problem. And I think that does... And people need to get a job. I left school at 16 without a qualification to be named, but I was grafting from the age of 13, collecting glasses. I'd have been on half as much as what the barmaid or barman was earning, but it gave me the opportunity to get grafting, and it, you know, it stood me in good stead. We'll hear more from Carl Turner in a moment.

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18:33Carl, can I answer this? Am I right in thinking you spoke to Andy Burnham this morning? I've been texting Andy all week. I didn't speak with Andy this morning. I spoke with Kevin, who is his right-of-mouth. Kevin Lee. Yeah. And what was the discussion? Just how things are going, how we're feeling, and personal stuff about Kevin. Kevin's not been very well in recent months, and it was basically stuff about that, really. And what about, did you ask whether you were going to get the whip back? We had a discussion, Andy and I, months ago on the whip. He told me from the very outset, even before he was a candidate, when he was looking for a seat, he told me, as soon as I get in, if I get in, you'll get the whip back.

19:13Do you think he's promised jobs to people? I doubt it. He's not promised anything to me, but I've not asked. I suspect people will be asking. I got a phone call the other day, gobsmackingly. I won't say the MP, it wouldn't be fair, but a member of Parliament rang me and said look, if you don't fancy justice will you put the word in for me? I mean, goodness me I said, how do you think he would be if I was to ring Burnham and say what about justice for X? It's bonkers and he doesn't do his business like that by the way I don't think he'll be dishing out promises for jobs that would surprise me if he is So you don't think he's offered well streeting anything to put out the race?

19:52I don't think he has I think there'll be discussions with Louise Haig and Wes. I think there was discussions with Louise and other MPs prior to him finding the by-election seat. Ed Miliband for Chancellor? Well, I hope not. Believe it or not, I'm sort of controversial in the sense that I'd very much like Rachel Reeves to stay on, frankly. I think if you've got a problem where the markets are going to wobble, potentially, I think you keep the Chancellor. I don't think it's her fault when things have gone wrong. The Prime Minister is the first lord to the Treasury, not Rachel. Why would you have put in the NICs on businesses?

20:27That was a mistake. And the leadership matters from number 10. You know, that is the problem we've had. I was in Downing Street speaking with Keir in his private quarters before Christmas last year. And he was telling me directly the mistakes that I was reeling off were number 11 mistakes. And I said to him, in frustration, what on earth are you talking about? You are the gaffer. What are we doing this for? You're in charge. And the reality was, Keir was never really in charge. What was his reaction to that? Look, I had a relationship with him where I could speak directly. Other people would tell him...

21:08I just want to know what he said. He was fine with it. We discussed that. I'd gone there with one single purpose, which was to tell him to sack Mark Sweeney. He didn't like that very much, to be honest. he told me that that was not going to happen I left him with a list of things what I think he needed to do to improve one of which was talking to the PLP I suggested media interviews where I think he could do well to tell his own story and I suggested a few other things three or four weeks thereafter the jury stuff came the relationship broke down as a result of me texting him saying what the F is this about now come on this is somebody who campaigned from 1992 to do away with single-judge trials in Northern Ireland, but you're telling us you want them in England and Wales, when all of the evidence says the opposite to what the government is saying will be the effect of it.

22:03And we should say, you're a lawyer by profession. Yeah, but never a very eminent lawyer, Emily. I was very junior at the bar. I was in my second six pupillage, but I'd been a criminal solicitor before that. but my knowledge comes from the work I do in Parliament I do plenty of that here and I keep an interest in the thing my wife's a judge, for example and I do know my onions when it comes to the criminal justice system David Lammy, bless his cotton socks, hasn't got a clue bless him, hasn't got a clue and it was frustrating for me speaking to Kia and trying to speak with Lammy when in fact you knew, sadly, he had his fingers in his ears.

22:50Just step back. Don't you think this is utterly weird? That, like, as a country, you as a party, we're about to anoint, essentially, somebody who's just basically said, I want his job. He's come to London. We don't know his plans. We don't know his relationship with Europe or with the US or with Ukraine. we don't know what his plans are for defence or for welfare or for taxation we don't know anything and actually in two weeks time that could be it and you're also saying we don't need a contest to hear what he thinks well I don't think you do in the sense that what's the point of having a contest why I was listening to Harry Arman the other day saying well there's got to be a contest of some sort there's got to be a woman in the contest fine, if there's a woman who can do the job better than another person in the contest fine, put them in, stand go and get the nominations but don't put this woman in just because you're taking the box I think it's outrageous I mean there is a sense of momentum here which is bigger than the kind of the question of reality right?

23:58He's going to I mean I know that in Starmer's team they are saying that Starmer's played a blinder by saying yeah sod it I'm out of here before September and they describe Burnham as hoping that they would have the summer for and I quote a plan and a tan. They don't have that. They don't have a summer. They don't have a plan. Well I don't think that's right. Look there's been commissions, policy commissions going on behind the scenes for the last few months, six months at least and I think those commissions will produce documents which give Burnham as the new PM a direction on day one of walking into number 10 Downing Street.

24:39With a damaged party that's sort of woken up today going, what on earth have we just done? I mean, you know, even if they felt that the Starmer premiership wasn't going in the right direction, there will be that sense of kind of poison in the air now, won't there? No, I don't think there will. I think it'll be a positive effect. I think, you know, I'm going to give you the scenario which I think of regularly. You know, when the chief whip is coming to me saying, stop giving it loads on juries or else. I look at the polling in Eastall and I think, well, I'm fucked anyway. How can you tell me what to do?

25:19But, Nick... You mean because of reform? Well, because people voted 74 % leaving Eastall in 2016. You know, with Keir's leadership, it was inevitable that I was going to get absolutely smashed. So the whip has you in and says, stop doing the gobbing off about the jury stuff. It's a flagship policy. button it? I say no. I'm not buttoning it because it's a stupid idea. And by the way, my polling suggests I'm absolutely fucked anyway. How on earth is the... That's the problem we've had. People are looking at their own seats and thinking I quite like being an MP, to be honest. I get all of that. And you think you've saved your seat now?

25:57Absolutely. I get all of that. But to Emily's question, look, we don't know where he stands on welfare, on defence, on education, on health, on myriad topics and we are you are sitting here and saying no need for a contest it'll all become clear and you know at some point listen I mean don't you need to be you've talked a lot about the parliamentary Labour Party in this interview what about the people in this country don't they have a right to know who this bloke who's just become an MP and is suddenly going to be changing the direction of the country well we're back to the general election point look you know are we saying that you need a general election when a leader changes?

26:39Well, I don't think so. People are making that argument now. I think Mike taps on it, saying that's what ought to happen. Just to put people off challenging the leader. Well, if the leader's utterly crap, and the leader's costing you votes, and actually you've got no chance whatsoever of winning with the leader, why on earth are you going to stick with the leader? But I accept the arguments that it's hypocritical, because when we were in opposition, and it happened regularly, we were all on the bandwagon, saying, come on, let's be going to the country. I get that. But you don't have to constitutionally.

27:12It's a parliamentary democracy. It's not a presidential system. It can govern. I think it'll govern well. And the difference, and I think this is the essential difference with Andy Burnham, is normal. He can speak human. It does... It's charismatic. Carl Turner, can we just sum this up as, yeah, we're all hypocrites, but that's politics. Well, I think it is, to a degree, honestly. You see, you saw that photo call in Westminster Hall yesterday. Hundred and plus of them have all written to the PM saying, you know, you've got to you've got to stay. Why was Rachel Reeves in that photo shoot and not outside her own house when Starmer was resigning?

27:53Well, I don't know the answer to that. Do you find it weird? I did think it was a bit weird. Yeah, really. Because as far as I know, she wasn't going into number 10 and saying to Kia, come on, pack your bags, son. you've got to go I don't think that was happening but the hypocrisy of yesterday on that photograph was looking at these people who had been telling Keir to stick to his guns and dig his heels in were all crowding around Burnham desperate for a job it's like for goodness sake please and then poor old David Lammy bless his cotton socks out today said you what I've always you what Burnham I've always thought he'd be a brilliant Prime Minister just outrageous can you understand why the public might not have a very high opinion of politics absolutely true I mean that is the truth and I think things will change I mean this is a this is real optimism to think that Andy Burnham can change the way people feel about politics and politicians I doubt it if I'm being honest but people do appreciate honesty I've stopped reading the parliamentary Labour Party briefing in about 2010.

29:05You know, if I'd have been reading that, I'd have been on here saying, have I got my lines right? It's just a nonsense. People see through it. You've got to say what you think and do what you've said you're going to do. And that's the problem Keir's never managed to be able to do because I don't think Keir Starmer knows what he thinks. I don't know what his politics are. And you think Burnham knows what he thinks? I think Burnham knows his politics. I think he's probably on the soft left of the party, similar politics to myself, and, you know, I think he has a record of changing things for the better in Manchester, a recent example, and he does have a plan to bring that model down to Westminster, devolution's an important part of his stuff, that's the stuff that he ought to be concentrating, you can build from the manifesto, you'd have to go to the country just because it's not entirely in the manifesto you know, it's the stuff the basic points are in that manifesto you can build from it and I think I think he'd probably go to the country early but I don't think he needs to go in 25 minutes after moving into number 10 Downing Street Just one other thing before we let you go, do you know whether Andy Burnham has spoken to Keir Starmer or Keir Starmer has spoken to Andy Burnham I'm told that he's not yet Do you think they will?