Why do the Conservatives have a problem with Muslims praying in public?

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1:02This is a Global Player original podcast. Her position is that the Shadow Justice Secretary is defending British values when he says Muslims praying together in Trafalgar Square are not welcome. Mr Speaker, even Tommy Robinson, I can hardly believe I'm saying this, has said today that if the Shadow Justice Secretary had made these hateful comments two years ago, the Conservative Party would have kicked him out. Now, Tommy Robinson isn't some sort of moral signpost. He was pointing out how much their party has changed. They're more inclined to his views, and he's right about that. The fact that he's stitting on her front bench shows she's too weak and has got absolutely no judgement.

1:47That is Keir Starmer talking about the Shadow Justice Secretary, Nick Timothy, who, commenting about a group of Muslims getting together in Trafalgar Square, to mark the iftar when Muslims break the fast during Ramadan, said mass ritual prayer in public places is an act of domination. A row has now broken out between the two main parties. Is Kemi Badenokh prepared to disavow the words of her own Justice Secretary or does she agree with him? Welcome to the News Agents.

2:26The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And the event that took place in Trafalgar Square was a collective breaking of the fast as Ramadan drew to a close in London. It's the final week. And the event was part of the Ramadan Temp Project Ramadan Festival. And around 3 ,000 people, including Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, attended this open iftar. and it was designed to be for all faiths, for races and backgrounds, united in the heart of our capital to break the fast, honour the values of the holy month and send a message of hope. That was the message of Sadiq Khan. Nick Timothy has seen it in a completely different way, pointing out that actually in Trafalgar Square, across the road is the church, St Martin's in the field, and that actually doing this so close to a church was showing active domination as if we are bigger than you and intimidating the people in the church.

3:27Yeah. And his tweet was accompanied by a picture of people praying, you know, bending down on their knees. And he put out this post which suggested somehow it was threatening to the fabric, the Christian fabric of the country. And just to read that tweet, he says, too many are too polite to say this, but mass ritual prayer in public places is an act of domination. The Adham, which declares there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger, is when called in a public place, a declaration of domination. Perform these rituals in mosques, if you wish, but they are not welcome in our public places and shared institutions.

4:06So he is, I guess, making the point that Trafalgar Square should be a public place. and if you want to pray or in his words call for the domination of Muhammad and Allah, do it in your mosques. He has been cheer led on by Tommy Robinson who has said, at last, you've seen the light or words to that effect. The Overton window shifted. Thank you, Nick Timothy, which is why Keir Starmer was referring to him. Let's just hear Tommy Robinson in his own words. I want to use this to congratulate. Where am I? blaze green room, but I want to congratulate and thank every patriot, everyone who stood up, everyone who refused to be silenced, everyone who played their part in shifting the Overton window so far, so much that a Conservative Member of Parliament now feels comfortable to state these facts.

5:03Now, if this would have been 12 months ago, 18 months ago, two years ago, no MP would have said anything like this. Do you know why? Because the left had the monopoly. They would have absolutely crucified him. The Conservative Party would have kicked him out. Do you know why now they can say this? Because of you. Because you took to the streets in your millions. You have given confidence to people to speak the truth and know that there's support for that truth, for that feeling, for that pride, for that courage, for all of it. It's there now. You did it. So just to clarify, Trafalgar Square has been used for Sikhs to celebrate their festivals, by Jews to celebrate Hanukkah, their festivals.

5:46It has been used by Christians and by no denomination at all. But only when the Muslims went to pray in the last week of Ramadan did it strike a chord into the shadowed Justice Secretary's heart that he felt the need to tweet. I think this has to be viewed in the light of a wider radicalisation on the right of British politics. I think Tommy Robinson's right. I think too, not often you say that, particularly on this show, but, you know, two years ago, three years ago, you probably wouldn't have had the shadow justice secretary saying something like this, basically saying that it's OK to be Muslim in this country as long as you're quiet about it and we don't see you.

6:28That's basically what the kind of critique is of saying this is an act of domination. But I think that not just in the Conservative Party, but on the right of British politics generally, we see again and again use the phrase, Emily, one of our favourites. You know, the Overton window is shifting and shifting and shifting. Well, now it's Tommy Robinson telling us about the Overton window. That's a change of the Overton window, isn't it? Tommy's window. So, look, you know, if we go back, say, five years or so, there was a sort of watered-down inquiry into accusations of Islamophobia or anti-Muslim sentiment in the Conservative Party.

7:03It found, even then, councillors calling for Muslims to be banned from the party, thrown from bridges, forcibly sterilised, members in anti-Islam Facebook groups, offenders nonetheless quietly reinstated after short suspensions. We had the then leader of the Conservative Party, I think he wanted to be leader at that time. Boris Johnson, you know, writing columns about women looking Muslim women looking like letterboxes. We had Suella Braverman when she was in the Tory party claiming Islamists were running the country. Lee Anderson, when he was in the Tory party, said they'd taken control of the London mayor.

7:34We see on the wider right, the online right in British politics, which is now the driving seat, the driving force of much of the right of politics now. Now, constant references to the idea that London in particular has fallen, partly because it's got a Muslim mayor that it's been taken over by Islamists. And even in the last month or so, we had Kemi Bainock herself, who has certainly not resiled from Timothy's, Nick Timothy's comments. In fact, she's defended him. You know, after the Greens won the Gorton and Denson by-election, basically saying that Muslims uniquely had voted because they were being sectarian, because there was a Muslim bloc vote, It's an accusation that she would never have made about other religions or other groups of people.

8:14So I think that, you know, you've got to see it in a party or in the guise of not just a party, but the sort of wider right, which seems uniquely to have a problem with Muslims. It isn't just and I think there is a legitimate conversation to be had about multiculturalism and multiculturalism versus integrationism and so on. But the target of their ire, whenever they're talking about multiculturalism, always seems to be the same group, i.e. Muslims. And that, if you're a British Muslim, I can completely understand, you would find that a big problem and troubling. And Emily, you talked about Trafalgar Square and the history of Trafalgar Square.

8:51I think what's really interesting is that, you know, one of the metaphors about the way that debate has become so polarised in this country is that in the public square you can't debate these ideas. Trafalgar Square is literally our public square. It is where groups, left-wing groups, right-wing groups, protest groups, religious groups, nationalist groups, all sorts, will go to Trafalgar Square to kind of have their day out or whatever it happens to be. I'm looking at a picture right now of a group of presumably British Hindus celebrating Diwali. Or when Rishi Sunak... And the Easter procession or Hanukkah or whatever.

9:28it happens to be. Okay, so to put Nick Timothy's point in full, because he's just responded to some of the criticism in the last three hours, he said the point is not that Sikhs have danced on Trafalgar Square or that the Passion Play has been hosted there, neither is the point that Muslims have gathered on Trafalgar Square the point is that mass ritual prayer in public, he says next to a church, is an act of domination. Well, the square is next to a church so I think you have to remove the church from this. But I guess what he's pointing to is an idea that when people gather of whatever their faith or whatever their creed, you can dictate what they do and don't do, right?

10:09So are you really going to say, well, come on Sikhs, you're allowed to dance, but no praying, right? You're allowed to gather and celebrate the end of the festival of Ramadan, but no praying. Do you understand what they're saying when you call them dominant? Or is it just the fact that a lot of people turned up? I mean, is it the language? Is it the fact? Is it the motion of prayer? Or is it just that he got scared by the number? Right. And I don't still think from his tweet, even his explanation, we understand that. I don't understand how you differentiate between an act of prayer and an act of celebration or an act of festivity.

10:46Well, I suppose the answer to that would be, and this is where I think Nick Timothy has got this wrong, is that he is conflating Islam and Islamism. You know, an extremist interpretation of the Koran, which justifies kind of whatever is happening, attacks on whoever you want to attack and all the rest of it. Islam is not doing that. It's not that those Muslims are not seeking to... I don't think he's talking about Islamism. I think he is talking about Islam. He's talking about Adhan, which explicitly denies other religions, including Christianity. Frankly, Nick, every single religion thinks it is the most important religion because otherwise how would you ever get anyone to follow your religion?

11:28I mean, he said, I'm not saying everyone there is an Islamist. But then, I mean, that undermines itself. But the point is, the Pope thinks that Catholicism is the best religion. And the Jews think of themselves as the chosen people. Everyone thinks their own religion is the right religion. Otherwise, why on earth would you follow it? It's like following a football team. So, look, you know, if you are looking at areas where there is an attempt at domination, I mean, I think that Friday prayers in a lot of countries, you know, if you kind of see the Friday prayers that would take place in Tehran at the height of the revolution or other Middle Eastern countries, those were very political events.

12:00It was a chance to burn the stars and stripes, burn the US flag, burn the Israeli flag. You were, you know, you were enemies of the West. And there was a political movement to a lot of that. So would you say no Friday prayers should be allowed in Trafalgar Square? Well, I wouldn't say that. I would say that if it was becoming a deeply political event that every Friday people were gathering in Trafalgar Square and burning. And it was threatening. And it was threatening. Then, yeah, of course. Well, look, also, I mean, this ultimately goes down to or comes down to our model, the British model of multiculturalism, which is, as I say, basically, it feels to me that the one the Conservative Party is quite rapidly moving against and moving against in particular with regard to Muslims, which is, I think, where the sort of inconsistency comes.

12:43Because, look, I mean, if the objection, which you could make, and this is what a French style secularist would say, we have no religious events in public spaces because that goes against our... No headscarves, no crosses, nothing. Laicite, as the French say, secularism, because it's intimidating and the state doesn't permit it and non-religious people shouldn't have to see it or come into contact with it. okay you can say that but what you can't say or at least you can say it but then you start getting into some pretty dark territory i think is that um and you can definitely say what he's if we go down the french style that is very contrary to all of our country our kind of traditions but if it's muslim only events if you're basically saying you have a particular problem with muslim style group prayer not only is that inconsistent not only does it send a very quite dark message to to british Muslims but it's actually unlawful it would be unlawful religious discrimination because you would basically be saying that certain groups that we like or find unthreatening say Hindus or Sikhs or whatever can take to public squares and can celebrate and celebrate their religion but this particular group can't and so and that is just and that creates all sorts of problems for the French by the way their model has not succeeded either in fact and ours has been much more successful historically.

13:57So what is interesting I guess politically is where this leaves the leader of his party because this all happened in Prime Minister's questions. This is meant to be the chance for Kemi Badenok to fire five questions at the Prime Minister after which she has put him on the spot. And she tried to sort of talk through the relationship between Epstein and Mandelson, which obviously has been rumbling along pretty consistently since the beginning of this year. And he turned the tables on her and said, will you disavow your shadow justice? I don't know what it is about that role of shadow justice secretary, but everyone seems to become radicalised in a matter of weeks.

14:33You know, darling Jenrick has now fled the party in Suella with him. But isn't it interesting that she is now in this fix where she's got to decide, right? She's got to decide whether she follows him or she slaps him down or she lets Keir have a win on this or she has to justify him. I mean, she's just come out yesterday, right, with, I presume, a very strong advisor in her ear who said, just sound rational, just sound normal, stick to economics, don't play the culture wars, don't follow Trump down this weird dark rabbit hole of wherever he's going, just be the person that sort of rises above it all.

15:14And now she's in danger of getting pulled into this totally new, right, cultural rabbit hole, which I don't think makes her look very strong. Well, I think that in every fibre of her being, she probably agrees with Nick Timothy. I think instinctively she agrees with Nick Timothy. So is that a winning recipe for the Tories? More Islamophobic? Well, I mean, she rejects the context of Islamophobia. I mean, that's part of this whole thing. Right. That's another way in which this, you know, I think Muslims find particularly problematic, which is that, you know, Kevin Badenock has disputed the existence of Islamophobia.

15:50You can have anti-Muslim hatred, but her argument will be, and this is a sort of received wisdom on the right now, that you can't have Islamophobia and you shouldn't have a definition of Islamophobia because we want to be in a position of critiquing Islam. So that's been another kind of front in this ongoing battle on the right. I do think one of the huge changes that has taken place over maybe a 20, 30 year time span is the sort of public show of religion. that actually when I was growing up, I didn't see menorahs being put up in public for Hanukkah. You didn't see them around. And do you like that?

16:24Well, I just think it's something that has changed. When I moved to America and, you know, the building where the BBC is on kind of M Street, you know, it got to Hanukkah and a menorah went up. And I thought, really? Or political parties. This is a thing that started in the last few years. It's sort of part of digital life, I think, you know, sort of political parties wishing you a very happy Easter. like this is from all the lads at the Labour Party we wish you were very happy Easter or you know actually the Conservative Party tweeting out like pictures of a crucifix and going hallelujah he is risen on Easter Sunday and like it's quite new right these sort of like forcible expressions of religion.

17:00But it's interesting I was asking our sort of wider team here you know does anyone else you know trying to gauge a sense does anyone find that uncomfortable you know are we we work right next to Trafalgar Square if you walk past that would you find it uncomfortable And actually, quite interesting to hear some of the views, which is like, no problem with that. But if that was a Jewish festival, I would be more worried. I'd be more worried about the anti-Semitism because we know that anti-Jewish crime is much less picked up than anti-Muslim crime. You know, I think the anti-Jewish crime is half as often prosecuted as anti-Muslim crime.

17:39So, you know, their point was like, I love everyone being able to celebrate in Trafalgar Square. But if I was Jewish, I wouldn't want to be at an event like that because I wouldn't feel safe. Frankly, I would not feel safe. But that is also the point. I'm sure that's true. But it also illustrates the point, right, is that there is no way if there was a celebration of Judaism of whatever form in Trafalgar Square. Nick Timothy ain't complaining about it. Right. There's no way in a million years. You don't have to worry about Nick Timothy. No, of course. So it's different worries. But just, you know, in terms of particularly, I mean, for example, I mean, you know, imagine I mean, it is, you know, Ramadan is coming to an end.

18:12Ede, I think, on Friday. I mean, imagine, I mean, that's another element of this, right, which is the timing. Imagine if in the Jeremy Corbyn era of the Labour Party, or even today, someone from the Labour left, you know, who had been accused of anti-Semitism in the past or whatever, you know, had decided in the week of Hanukkah or whatever to, you know, really criticise a Jewish festival or whatever it happened to be that has taken place in Trafalgar Square, there would have rightly been uproar about it. But on half of British politics at the moment, there will basically be some applause for Nick Timothy, for, you know, saying the brave thing.

18:44And ultimately... Well, that's his first line, too polite to say this. So what he's... I mean, he is coming from a very similar place, I think, of generic, which is, it's that kind of, are you thinking what I'm thinking? You won't dare say it, but I'm doing the work for you. I think what a lot of Muslims worry about, a lot of, you know, those of us who believe in a pluralistic society, which is until recently, what, you know, was something of a consensus in British politics, that there is a sort of systematic effort going on on the right, particularly online now, to present ordinary Muslim religious life and civic life as inherently threatening, as inherently dark and sinister and antithetical to British life.

19:25And I think to hear that basically being articulated, at least to some extent, from the Conservative frontbench, I think that is new, or at least it is part of a trend which has not been advised to British life. The Jews in this country do feel threatened, not by Islam, not by Muslim prayers in Trailer Square, but they do feel threatened by the protests that have become so dominant in parts of central London over the last two years, which have been anti-Jewish, which have had anti-Semitic elements, not all of them, but there has been a very steady anti-Semitic element to them. And so I think what has happened is that, you know, Badenock and others have been on pretty clear ground when they've condemned the anti-semitic rhetoric of some of the marchers right which has taken place week after week but this has spilled into a question of prayer.

20:14I think you've got to distinguish between the sort of what is religious faith and you know the idea that a protest could take place outside a synagogue or a synagogue itself would be attacked when worshipers are just going to practice being a Jew or an attack outside a mosque because someone happens to hate Muslims, as happened in Finsbury Parka a while back. I think that is just reprehensible. I think that anyone should be able to practice their faith how they want to. And if they want to have a Hanukkah, you know, as happened around my way, you know, last December, that they were going to be the first night of Hanukkah, they were going to be the light, candles were going to be lit on the, you know, near where we live.

20:56And it was a public event and there was no problem at all. and it was kind of very nice and community driven fine but that's not the same as supporting the state of israel or hating the state of israel supporting iran or hating the state of iran i think it's just the conflation between if you are a religious person if you're a jew you support israel if you're a muslim you support the and that's dangerous by the way and that is so dangerous that is the stuff that i find really obnoxious and i just think that the trouble with the nick thing is that there that was about faith i don't think it was about domination i think it was about people he made that connection yeah and he made that connection and and i think it has to be viewed in through this lens which we're seeing more and more of on the right of british politics which is to basically make the idea of britishness more and more exclusive and that isn't just limited to race and islam by the way although they do focus on that a lot what have we seen as an increasingly central part of the online discourse on this we've talked about it on the show before over the last year or so the idea that for example rishi sunak not a muslim a hindu isn't english or isn't british and that has an inherently racial element right which is basically to make the idea of englishness or britishness white intrinsically white intrinsically um sort of intrinsically against someone who has come to this country either recently or not so recently and also you know fused into that something we see more and more of which i think you again if you're a leading politician you have to be wary of if you're talking about you know muslim domination of public spaces which is the idea of the great replacement theory which has again become absolutely central on the right i'm not saying timothy's articulating that exactly but this is the sort of thing which was once completely fringe and has become more and more central so it It's incumbent, I think, on leading politicians to be careful about what sort of flames they're fannying.

22:54And in that space, I think you'd also have to throw the Greens, right? Zach Polanski is now a leading politician, second in the polls. You mentioned Gordon and Denton. And part of their campaign was, I mean, it was very two-pronged. They had, you know, the lovely plumber from Greater Manchester. I'm a plumber, I'm a plasterer. And, you know, that spoke to huge numbers of people who said, great, you know, here's a practical woman, a can do woman. Great. Let's have her. And then they ran this sort of separate campaign, which was in Urdu, which was talking to specific parts of the community, which was not kind of explaining in Urdu about bin collection or explaining in Urdu about how to do your recycling, which had pictures of Modi, Narendra Modi, alongside Keir Starmer, as if to say, do you realise what Keir Starmer is doing?

23:44They ran a foreign policy campaign in the middle of Gorton and Denton. And I do think they have to take some responsibility. I mean, that is unprecedented. I mean, the Conservatives have done that about Kashmir in the past. And, you know, it's not completely unprecedented. I mean, maybe we should stop that more collectively. Yeah, I mean, you know, I sort of think if we're talking now, if we're treating the Greens as a grown up party, if we're treating their leadership and, you know, him as a major player now, which he will be in the next election, You do have to ask a question about whether you want to run sort of, I don't know, micro targeting different campaigns to different communities in different languages, talking about completely different things.

24:21It's not about it's not a linguistic point. It's about running completely different campaigns to try and speak to people about completely different issues in a way that is nothing to do with who actually represents Gorton and Denton. just going back to the example of france when i was paris correspondent i did a piece about laicite about the fact that you can have no religious symbols in school or in federal buildings and it was i think the row was over sikhs wearing a turban and so i was sent by the local prefecture to a school which was they were going to talk about how this is how they operate and there are no religious symbols it was december i arrived at this school and there's an enormous Christmas tree in the foyer to the school where they're talking.

25:03Pagans. Pagans. That's all right. It's a festive tree. It's not a Christmas tree. It's a festive tree. And I've done reporting on the Lestey in France as well. And that is precisely the kind of double standard which fuels resentment and actually fuels some of the extremism that actually has become a bigger problem in France. Not to say we don't have a problem because we do, but generally speaking, a bigger problem in France because radical elements, right, are able to say to maybe disaffected, potentially quasi-radical young Muslim guys in France, they're able to say, look, they don't like you.

25:34They don't want you here. They don't think you're actually French. And the evidence of that is all around you because they say there's licensure and there's no religious expressions, but there is for Christianity. And that has been the strength of the British system. And that's why I think we've got to be pretty careful about going down, basically institutionalising that double standards that I think that Timothy, Nick Timothy, would unwittingly do with his approach. We'll be back in just a moment on Ofcom and GB News.

26:23fuel costs for Keir Starmer to say yes to President Trump and send the Navy to protect Hormuz. The fallout of the Iran war. Follow it live on LBC. Listen on our free global player app or the LBC app. Are you trying to get weight loss support through telehealth, but it feels overwhelming and rushed? Check out orderlymeds.com now. Orderlymeds.com was built to be different. Here, you connect with real doctors who take the time to understand your goals, review your eligibility, and guide you through a plan that's right for you. Orderly Meds provides access to proven GLP-1 medications like semaglutide and terzepatide, including both name brand options and personalized compound versions when appropriate.

27:04So you have choices backed by clinical oversight, not guesswork. It's a simpler, more supportive telehealth experience designed around people who want clarity, care, and confidence in their weight loss journey. And your medication is delivered directly to your home in discreet packaging. So your experience stays private from start to finish. Do your research. Ask the right questions. Then visit orderlymeds.com slash podcast for an exclusive offer. Again, that's orderlymeds.com slash podcast. Individual results may vary. Not medical advice. Eligibility required. See site for details.

27:41The News Agents. A new world investigation into GB News has found hundreds of shocking breaches of the rules of impartiality and accuracy. Yet Ofcom has repeatedly refused to take action. Andrew Neil says, just as Fox basically became the channel of Donald Trump, it is clear they have turned GB News into the reformed channel. We cannot let GB News propaganda turn our great country into their version of Trump's America. Either the government rules aren't fit for purpose or Ofcom isn't properly enforcing them. Prime Minister, which is it? Prime Minister. Well, he's right to raise an important question of free speech and our media.