In short
The episode argues that Conservative leader Kemi Badenoch’s stance against “woke” culture is hypocritical because she promoted Joshua Bonehill-Payne, a convicted neo-Nazi and racist/antisemitic extremist, to advise the party’s Culture and Integration Commission.
Guests
Maitlis and Lewis (News Agents hosts) discuss the controversy; Talisa Kontostavlos (former X Factor judge) joins later to discuss a separate tabloid “fake Sheikh” sting case.
Key claims
Bonehill-Payne’s rehabilitation may be real, but parties can still set eligibility thresholds after serious convictions; Badenoch’s “no bashing by libs/woke karate” framing is portrayed as online-posturing rather than moral nuance.
Notable examples
Bonehill-Payne’s harassment conviction involving Baroness Luciana Berger (including alleged Nazi salute in court); Badenoch’s X post about needing help from “those part of the problem”; Talisa’s 2013 entrapment narrative involving staged Las Vegas meetings, fake producers, and drug-supply accusations that were later thrown out.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Controversial Advisor Selection
3:18 to 6:16
Discussion on the implications of Kemi Badenoch appointing Joshua Bonehill-Payne as an advisor.
“He will specifically focus on how young men are becoming radicalised.”
Balancing Rehabilitation and Political Integrity
6:16 to 12:00
Analysis of the balance between rehabilitation of former extremists and political ethics.
“So he has, in effect, become a more national senior figure, which is precisely what Bader Nock said he wouldn't be able to do.”
Kemi Badenoch's Political Strategy
12:00 to 14:00
Exploration of Kemi Badenoch's approach to politics and her views on coalition building.
“and then act as if that's some great point of principle.”
The Political Landscape and Redemption
14:00 to 21:54
Explore the complexities of political alliances and the notion of redemption in politics.
“And she has come out and said she will never form a coalition with Reform UK because she can't trust Robert Jenrick.”
The Political Landscape and Redemption
21:59 to 22:17
Explore the complexities of political alliances and the notion of redemption in politics.
“California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California finance law license, NMLS number 1353190.”
Talisa's Story: A Sting Operation
22:17 to 28:00
Talisa shares her experience of being caught in a tabloid sting operation that affected her life.
“Talisa's been charged with a serious criminal offense.”
The Elaborate Sting Operation
28:00 to 29:25
Discussing the complexities of a deceptive setup that led to legal troubles.
“and months and months, they did end up getting it.”
Facing Arrest and Charges
29:25 to 31:40
Describing the shocking moment of being informed about impending arrest and accusations.
“I've given that number who they have then gone and got it off.”
The Collapse of the Case
31:40 to 34:00
Exploring how the case against the individual fell apart due to a whistleblower.
“So does part of you say this should never have happened, but the system worked?”
Reflections on Press Practices
34:00 to 36:26
Analyzing the failures of press regulations and the need for reform.
“So 13 years later you are prepared to dredge up this really really unpleasant period of your life.”
Show all 14 chapters
Personal Experience and Broader Implications
36:26 to 38:48
Connecting personal trauma to systemic issues in journalism and press regulation.
“and she obviously put in a complaint and was told there was no negligence there.”
The Need for Change in Media Regulation
38:48 to 42:01
Discussing the need for independent regulation to prevent media malpractice.
“Do you remember when he sort of talked about having some shit thrown at her or whatever?”
Press Regulation and Personal Impact
42:01 to 44:49
Discussing the emotional impact of press regulation failures.
“And when you said you felt at the time this should be illegal.”
Westminster's Vertical Drinking Policy
45:03 to 46:50
Discussion on Westminster Council's ban on standing while drinking.
“Before we go, a little something to get you in the mood for the weekend.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Will Gallois:Bite into a stacked sandwich made with Hero Bread. And the only thing you'll think is delicious.
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0:32Will Gallois:This is a global production. The man at the centre of our discussion, Joshua Bonehill-Payne, decided to withdraw from next year's local elections for the Conservative Party and told us within the same breath that the Conservative leader, Kemi Badenor, had instead asked him to become an advisor.
0:54Molly Kingsley:And what she's seeing this as, more than anything else, as you say, is an opportunity to show the online right, that you're not going to get bashed around by the libs, you're not going to get bashed around by the woke karate. But you know what? If you have been a neo-Nazi and you've been convicted, it is a political principle within a democracy or within a political party to say, thanks but no thanks for having you in our party. Because you know what it does? It sends a strong political message to the rest of politics that actually, you know what? This stuff on some level is OK. I'm afraid we're going to have to talk a little bit about Joshua Bonehill-Payne today.
1:30Molly Kingsley:Your leader, Kemi Bainock, said that she's sad that he's had to stand down. Are you sad? I think it's sad that Joshua is not, as he said, going to be able to have the space to not only talk about how much he's changed, but also demonstrate that he's changed and the work he's doing to tackle extremism and antisemitism in our communities. So just explain to us then why you think that he a person sent to prison for being a racist anti-Semite is a good fit for the Culture Integration Commission. Antisemitism and extremism is a massive problem in our country and it's getting worse for a lot of Jewish people.
2:10Molly Kingsley:And you fully believe that he has reformed and doesn't believe the things that he did previously? Whilst in prison, you know, he does seem to have been fully rehabilitated. I mean, the victim of all of this, Baroness Berger, doesn't see that at all. She remembers being six months pregnant when she had to sit through the evidence as he sat there smoking. At one point, I think, even giving a Nazi salute, speaking to his supporters in the audience in the courtroom. She said that all of this is a poor idea by the Conservative Party. He certainly shouldn't be on that commission. What about respecting her views and beliefs?
2:46Will Gallois:Is a former neo-Nazi activist really the best person to tackle anti-Semitism in our culture? And if the answer is yes, why has he just pulled his candidacy from the Conservative Party?
3:03Molly Kingsley:Yesterday we asked why the Conservative leader, Kemi Badenock, had allowed a former neo-Nazi to stand for her party. Today we're asking why she just promoted him. Welcome to the News Agents.
3:18Molly Kingsley:The News Agents.
3:19Will Gallois:It's Maitlis. It's Lewis. And really, just as we were publishing our episode last night with almost perfect timing, the man at the centre of our discussion, Joshua Bonehill-Payne, decided to withdraw from next year's local elections for the Conservative Party in a seat in Somerset and told us within the same breath that the Conservative leader, Kemi Badenock, who had up until that point not just stood by him, but vocally defended him on air, had instead asked him to become an advisor to the party's Culture and Integration Commission. He will specifically focus on how young men are becoming radicalised.
4:06Will Gallois:So in one sense, they have avoided this whole question of going to the voters and asking them to vote for a former convicted neo-Nazi. On the other hand, she's now paying him directly.
4:21Molly Kingsley:This really, I think, cuts to the heart of exactly Kemmy Baden-Ock's justification for this in the first place, which is that yesterday, and it was, as we said, it was a very peculiar justification. She basically said that this guy convicted neo-Nazi, as we said on the show yesterday, not just that, but truly heinous series of of incidents of harassment against Luciana Berger the former Labour MP now Baroness we read out some of the sentencing remarks from the from the judge yesterday I don't actually think that a lot of the commentary around this has really done what he did to her justice and really sort of you know this wasn't just an example of profound racism and xenophobia anti-Semitism, it was the most crude and appalling misogyny, what he subjected her to, something which she said she's still living with today.
5:15Molly Kingsley:Now, Kemi Badenock said her justification was that, look, this is a guy who's reformed. He's been rehabilitated. He's a good person to have speaking about anti-Semitism, having been de-radicalised, all of which may be true. But she also said that one of the justifications was, look, this is a guy who's just sorting out the bins and sorting out the parking. So let's not worry about it too much.
5:36Will Gallois:Making every councillor in the country feel great about their jobs.
5:38Molly Kingsley:Yeah, quite, exactly. You know, having neo-Nazis sorting out your parking, as long as they're efficient, they're famously efficient, that's fine. This guy, then she said, it would be more of a problem if he were a national politician. I wouldn't allow him to enter the House of Commons. Now, logically, that begs the question, exactly where do you put the threshold of when does something become OK to just be local or be national? But that is now, 24 hours later, effectively what she's done, because she's given the guy, given that he's now withdrawn from his candidacy from local government, he is now going to be advising the party nationally on the very thing, the very subject about which he was convicted.
6:17Molly Kingsley:So he has, in effect, become a more national senior figure, which is precisely what Bader Nock said he wouldn't be able to do.
6:22Will Gallois:Yeah. And in a post on X, she has tweeted, if we're going to stop anti-Semitism and extremism, we're going to need help from those people who are part of the problem, but have now changed and are becoming part of the solution. Piling on them and trying to get them cancelled may be sport for other parties, but this is a different Conservative Party. I do think that goes to the heart of why she's digging down so deeply. And I have to say, and there is a little bit of me that is uncomfortable because I do remember, for example, somebody like Ed Hussain, who is a radical Islamist, who then did actually this, turned his life around, wrote a book about it, said, if you want to understand why young men are heading towards Islamism and radicalisation, then you might as well listen to me because I've had this experience and I've come through the other side.
7:16Will Gallois:He wrote a very good book and he kind of put it all out there. And so I understand why we want to believe in this whole culture where you get the perpetrators at the centre, who he will say he's now reformed, it's 10 years ago and all the rest of it, and you turn it around. But there is something about that line, cancelling maybe sport for other parties, which I think speaks so much to Brand Kemi. And Brand Kemi is, it's the same thing that led her to go on another podcast this week and talk about how woke reform is. Woke being probably the greatest insult that she can muster. You know, it's fine to have a misogynist, anti-Semite extremist on your payroll, But God forbid if you're woke or if you're part of cancel culture.
8:12Will Gallois:And I think if you are Luciana Berger, and obviously I don't want to speak for another woman, but hearing that she is being described as, you know, the cancel culture problem, as opposed to the woman who has been at the receiving end of something that probably put her life and her family's life in quite acute danger. It's just so insulting that it should come down to something that actually makes Kemi feel good about sort of trashing the lips.
8:44Molly Kingsley:I think that's exactly right. I think that I think people like Kemi Badenok, who are terminally online, and she is a figure who she thinks and it is a strength of hers to some extent. She thinks her political clarity is the thing which distinguishes her from other politicians and indeed, particularly against Keir Starmer. you could argue that her sharp political definition, the fact that she is so uncompromising, the fact that she insists she always sticks to her beliefs. Indeed, she once famously said that she never misspeaks. You know, she never makes a mistake. So she never makes a gaffe. She never makes a gaffe.
9:21Molly Kingsley:No, she said, she said, I always speak so precisely and exactly. I think so hard about what I'm going to say that I never make a gaffe, which ironically enough, almost certainly an example of a gaffe because of course it just curses you every time. I never lie. Inevitably. I never lie. Exactly. I never make a mistake. What, me? Look at me. I'm brilliant. But I think this whole incident sort of reveals two things. One is that she is a bit higher on her own supply with regards to that political profile. She's got it in her head that strength and political strength is always, is never to resolve from your position, is never to retreat, is never to be seen to retreat, is never to show flexibility.
10:02Molly Kingsley:Never to even have doubt.
10:03Will Gallois:I mean, doubt is a great, is a great asset.
10:07Molly Kingsley:And that's why she's such an online figure. She really is a figure for the ex Twitter age, right? She's someone who basically expresses herself in 280 characters and nuances a weakness. She's someone made to be amplified, right? She's a perfect example of a content politician on the right. But the problem with is with that is that of course, you know, it means that you end up dying on some really eccentric, odd micro Hills, right? if you can have eccentric hills, right? Can you die on a micro hill? Well, I mean, well, this is what chemists try to prove. You can if you're short enough. But like, you know, this is, you know, you end up a more supple politician, like a sort of, you know, whatever you think about it, like a Cameron or a Blair or someone.
10:46Molly Kingsley:They would probably just look at something like this. And even if you can sort of see the kind of moral argument about rehabilitation, even if you can kind of go, yes, well, you know, pure logic. You could say it's not for me. Yeah, pure logic might lead you from A to B to C. But a politician who has to be supple and a bit dexterous sometimes. And Nimble just goes, you know what? This isn't a fight worth having. You know, it really isn't a fight worth having. And you know what? Maybe we shouldn't have even put him in this position in the first place because it was bound to attract attention. But that's not how Baydnock sees it.
11:15Molly Kingsley:She sees it through clear, cold lines of logic. And not just logic, but basically, as you say, Emily, but as an ongoing, everything is a sort of tweet. And what she's seeing this as, more than anything else, as you say, is an opportunity to show the online right that you're not going to get bashed around by the libs. You're not going to get bashed around by the woke karate. But I'm sorry, like, but the problem with that is, as we see time and time again, that has a sort of self-radicalising effect. Because if you're at the point, right, as a sort of political movement, where the way you show to the libs that you're not woke and you're not going to get bashed around by the woke karate is by supporting a former neo-Nazi who's allowing a former neo-Nazi to stand for your party and then act as if that's some great point of principle.
12:03Molly Kingsley:At the same time, by the way, and this is the other incongruity, at the same time as she is imposing litmus tests on her party for people being able to stand, former MPs, for example, able to stand on the basis of certain beliefs that they may have, like about the ECHR or about Net Zero and so on. You know, whilst at the same time she's standing around saying, we've got to be this broad church, which includes former neo-Nazis because they've decided to show contrition. She's also turning around to people like Gavin Barwell, to Grant Shapps, to others who once were in the party that know there's no place for you within this party because you don't share my beliefs.
12:39Molly Kingsley:Well, that is a quite uncomfortable kind of dual thing to be doing at the same time.
12:43Will Gallois:I mean, maybe it's helpful to explain how he did come to prominence or how she did come to notice him. And this is through his own online work, which is making these sort of satirical videos. and we can play you one here, which is a sort of spoof on the new prime minister, Andy Burnham. And it's a kind of mixture of AI and music. And I guess there is a part of Kemi Baden-Ock, which was like, woohoo, you know, he can make funny videos for us. He can do this for us. He's already showing where his party affiliation is. Why doesn't he come on? I think that is also part of the thing, that she has kind of seen him as potentially somebody who, you know, wouldn't just stay a counsellor, but would potentially be somebody to kind of bring his art, his artistic sort of video-making skills, you know, to the fore in a sort of social media.
13:37Will Gallois:I don't know, but I'm sort of guessing that that was partly part of the attraction at any rate. I think that the position she's got herself in now, and I want to return for a moment to her appearance on Political Currency this week, was when she was asked a broader question about coalitions. And we have spoken this week already about the sort of shape-shifting on the right, whether she was in fact backing Rupert Lowe's Restore at one point, and whether Nigel Farage and Restore might sort of see eye to eye if they could ever get past a phone call, and whether there was sort of room even for the three parties of the right to sort of work together against a progressive alliance or against a resurgent Labour Party.
14:25Will Gallois:And she has come out and said she will never form a coalition with Reform UK because she can't trust Robert Jenrick. Fair enough, because, you know, he essentially showed that he was about to leave the party, defect from the party, and she fired him ahead of that. and Suella Braverman, who also left to go to reform. And then she denounced Nigel Farage as the leader of a woke party. Again, we come back to this thing of, was woke literally the worst word you could come up with? And maybe it is. And maybe it's a thing that you know will affect or hurt Nigel Farage the most. But it does feel once more like this is just a kind of shouty online debate that is now sort of entering the realms of a sort of quite normal political week.
15:16Molly Kingsley:Well, when Reform, as they were yesterday, were tweeting that it beggars belief that the Conservative Party have allowed a former neo-Nazi of the sort of things that this man did to stand for the party. Does tell you something about the texture of the right at the moment? When you're getting trolled by Reform, saying, how dare you?
15:35Will Gallois:I think he actually passed the vetting test for Reform previously. Right. And then he swapped his allegiance. So I'm not sure that reform come out of this sort of in the purest sense, because they also, they just failed to note he was a former neo-Nazi.
15:52Molly Kingsley:But yes. Well, I did. And look, I mean, there are some people, I mean, this has generated a lot of commentary and a lot of interest, just more than anything else on the principles of redemption and whether that should be allowed. I saw Ryan Shorthouse, who is a conservative sort of thinker and writer and so on. I think he listened to our episode or saw part of our episode yesterday and said, you know, disagree with what both you and I were saying, saying we either do or don't believe that rehabilitation can work. If he's fully rehabilitated, in fact, working to tackle counterterrorism and anti-Semitism, why not?
16:25Molly Kingsley:We need more political decision makers and opinion formers to see the world through moral principles rather than political posturing. and that's you know been doing that's basically been the kind of received wisdom on it in a lot of the kind of uh right of center commentary on all of this but i think that is aligning two things it is also a political principle it's not posturing to say of course you can be rehabilitated if you've been a neo-nazi but you know what if you have been a neo-nazi and you've been convicted and sent to prison for three years such as the gravity of the convictions or of the crimes that you committed around those convictions.
16:59Molly Kingsley:It is a political principle within a democracy or within a political party to say, thanks, but no thanks for having you in our party. Because you know what it does? It sends a strong political message to the rest of politics that actually, you know what, this stuff on some level is okay. And I think that it is perfectly legitimate for political parties, just as they do in lots of countries. You know, for example, if you've been a policing crime commissioner, you'll want to be a policing crime commissioner in this country, you can't have a criminal record. Perfectly logical. You are someone who is in charge of basically regulating and responsible for policing in a given area or scrutinising it.
17:35Molly Kingsley:Perfectly reasonable to say that you shouldn't have had a criminal record. But if you were to apply the Bayden-Ock principle, then you could have all sorts of people standing for these positions. So of course, you can always argue about where you draw the line, but it is not without precedent at all for either political parties or public institutions to say, of course, we no longer judge you for what you did. But it is true to say that once you've done it, it may not be appropriate for you to hold office.
17:57Will Gallois:Look, perhaps this is a good moment to say that we are interested in the story of Joshua's rehabilitation to the point where we reached out to him yesterday and invited him onto the podcast and we got a reply, I think about one in the morning saying he'd be happy to. And we were trying to make it work. We were very much hoping that he would join us today. But I don't know, timetables or whatever didn't quite allow for it. We do want to hear his voice in this, actually. And we do want to hear what rehabilitation sounds like for exactly the Ryan Shorthouse reasons. And I think there is almost certainly a lot to learn from somebody who has been through a prison experience and has understood the magnitude of the crimes.
18:42But I think what we're kind of talking about here constantly is the hypocrisy from the leader at the top, which is why some things are forgivable and other things supporting net zero are clearly
18:56Will Gallois:not. And I think that is where you get into something really complicated about the shape and the ethos of the party you lead.
Read the full transcript
19:05Molly Kingsley:Well, let's imagine that Andy Burnham allowed for the Labour Party a former Antifa activist, someone who maybe had been convicted for crimes related to their activities maybe someone who'd been involved in palestine action and involved in direct action and have been sent to prison with relation to that sort of far left activities whatever do we really think kemi badenock will be standing up and going no no no honestly let let's let them back into let's let them into parliament andy burnham's right to give them a second chance like come off it and that's the problem at the heart of this story more than anything kemi badenock for her many qualities that she has her political qualities that she has that clarity i do admire in some ways, but she's not someone who in any way about most of her politics screams a sort of nuance and gentle understanding that goes hand in hand with redemption and rehabilitation.
19:55Molly Kingsley:And perhaps if she were, then this wouldn't feel quite so incongruous.
19:59Will Gallois:I think if it was Ed Davey, I'd sort of get it. I don't think he ever would do this, frankly. I think that's the contradiction. I don't think he ever would do this, But it fits the sort of wider umbrella under which the Lib Dem leader sits.
20:13Molly Kingsley:And that's why it's not really about rehabilitation or it's not really about redemption. It is about or rather it is if it's in one direction and there are no limits. And we see this in all sorts of areas going on right now. We see this and we've talked about it on the show before. For a lot of the modern right, including the centre-right Conservative Party, under Kemi Bainock, there are virtually no limits to your rights that aren't acceptable. But the limits in the other direction are almost non-existent. And this is why this story, small in itself, is a microcosm of something much bigger that's happened.
20:47Will Gallois:We'll be back in a second talking to former singer and X Factor judge Talisa about the moment she was caught in a sting by a tabloid newspaper that turned her entire life upside down.
21:08Molly Kingsley:This is Ashley Akinetti from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast. Ben, I've been reflecting a lot lately on how many big life moments our listeners have experienced with us. Yeah, it's pretty wild. They've watched us go from dating shows to engagements, weddings, babies, buying homes. Every stage comes with new decisions.
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22:16Molly Kingsley:I'm going to make a short statement on behalf of Talisa. Talisa's been charged with a serious criminal offense. to which she's today pleaded not guilty. As has been widely reported, this entire case has been manufactured by The Sunday Sun and Mazza Mahmood, sometimes known as the fake shake. They have spent a large amount of their readers' money on flying to Lisa and a number of friends, first class to Las Vegas. There, Mahmood posed as a film producer, offering her a£3 million film contract. This case is not simply about drug supply. It is about the limits which we set on the conduct of journalists.
23:05Molly Kingsley:The media have been rightly criticised in recent years for gross invasion into the private life of others. Talisa is the latest in a long line of people who have been treated as fodder by greedy newspapers. This was a deliberate attempt to target a young woman who is all the more vulnerable because of her celebrity status. The law clearly forbids such conduct on the part of the police. And it's ironic that the police should rely on it when it is the work of a journalist. That lawyer was speaking outside court in December of 2013.
23:43Will Gallois:and the Talisa he was referring to was Talisa Kontostavlos, the former N-dub star, the former X-Factor judge. Talisa is with us now and will hopefully take us through how that moment, how the period leading up to that moment changed your life, Talisa. When I looked at that clip, your face is completely passive. I'm imagining that inside it felt very different yeah absolute emotional shutdown of course in that moment if I wanted to say what I was truly feeling I would have screamed from the bottom of my lungs to the rooftops you know what the hell is going on I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Enemy of the State with Will Smith in it but it was just the most bizarre experience anyone can experience in their entire life um talk just through it because it felt like the whole world was against me at the time that your lawyer there was saying you became fodder for greedy newspapers what happened what was the sting um i wanted to go into acting i landed in la to do my first auditions and i got a tweet from 21st century fox i don't know how that came about they paid them off or paid off one individual um within 21st Century Fox uh basically saying that they had this Bollywood slash Hollywood role that they wanted me to audition for and they wanted to fly me straight to Las Vegas to meet the producers um instantly super excited they flew me out they flew me out with my friends that I was with at the time there were a number of number of people involved so you have like two different producers you have assistants I had fake accountants and lawyers that you meet along the way um movie scripts and the so none of these people were real they were all actors none of it was real um and they basically their way of auditioning was more of well how we do things because of the Bollywood side of things they'd say is we like to strike friendships with our clients and you know we wine and dine and we get to know you and that's how we see if you're right for the role and the reason that we are coming to you for this role is because the character is this you know rough around the edges ghetto girl that comes from the hood um and you know all of a sudden changes her life around but you know she's very very gritty she's got like a dark past and this is why they were auditioning me because I'd had that gritty past and then I was being pulled aside by an assistant of the main producer and she would make sure there's no recording devices and she'd pull me in the toilet when we're doing our makeup and say listen I have a daughter I'm a mother I've read your autobiography everything you went through as a child is just terrible I really want you to get this trust me listen to me do as I say and you know she told me I had to go out there and up the ante so be four times talk about your past talk about your childhood yeah talk about your tell Well, porkies, if you have to be as gritty as you can possibly be.
27:07Will Gallois:Like if you can make them believe that you are the ghetto girl in the role, you've got that three and a half million pounds. And then you hear, you know, in one of the recordings, I sort of go from saying, yeah, I used to smoke a bit of weed and I was a bit rough around the edges to, oh, yeah, I used to be in gangs and all my friends have guns. And I know every drug dealer in England. And you just hear this up of the ante after being pulled aside and being told that by this lady. and she continued to do that throughout the process and the process lasted for months and there were multiple occasions where they had tried to ask me for drugs and if I knew anyone and of course at the time I'm thinking well if I am this ghetto girl and I've said all of this then I should be able to get them some and I couldn't and I myself at the time was getting frustrated like what do I do I don't bloody know anyone and eventually down the line and after and months and months, they did end up getting it.
28:04Will Gallois:So you're in this kind of make-believe, well, almost sort of Truman Show type world, right? Like the Truman Show, yeah. And did you have, were your suspicions aroused at any point? Honestly, I didn't think it was legal for them to do that. When I found out, I was just so bamboozled that this was legal. I didn't think that was even a possibility. so this I had imagined this was like a weekend meeting it wasn't you said this was months yeah oh this went on for like six months the stings and flying like I said flying to Las Vegas and first class flights and limo pickups and dinners and did you have an agent at the time was the agent kind of doing yeah the kind of necessary checks and this is all kosher and this makes sense and we know these people my agent at the time had had experience with Bollywood and apparently that was you know one of the ways that they did things it was you know that friendly vibe, wine and dining, getting to know people and even you know from my agent's perspective you just could never concoct in your mind such an extreme and elaborate sting.
29:15Will Gallois:I really didn't believe it was legal like when I found out what had happened I was just like this is this is legal it's legal for people to do this like talk us through what happened the moment that you understand what's coming at you um I literally was sat in my living room and my manager walked in and he just had looked white as a ghost and he was shaking from head to toe and he said it's a lie it's it's all been a lie that there's no movie and I was just looking at him going what what do you mean he said there's there's no movie role it and he just tried to start explaining to me which even at the time I was like what are you talking about um and then eventually I got my head around it and within the same few minutes of getting my head around that then he was like you're going to be arrested um you need to go to the police station they're doing you for the concern of the selling in class a drugs no headline had appeared at this point I actually it's actually quite a blur if I'm honest now I'm trying to remember if the headline came first or I was told first but I just remember being told within the same moment of having the realization also being told you're facing prison because I was then told because you imagine even if I've given a telephone number if I don't know how drugs work I don't know how much is going to be ordered or anything like that then I'm told they ordered 800 pounds worth so I'm like what does that mean they're like you're facing like eight years in prison and what were they actually what would that have been what were they accusing you of then of concern in the selling of class a drugs so if I'm the person that gives the telephone number then I've set you for this up and I'm You know, it makes no difference whether I know if they're going to order£10 or£800.
31:09Will Gallois:Or none at all. Or none at all. I've given that number who they have then gone and got it off. So therefore, I'm guilty. So if we kind of fast forward through this crazy time, it actually ended up ultimately with the fake Sheikh being sent to prison himself, didn't it? Yeah. So weirdly, kind of justice was served. You never faced charges. You never faced any conviction. It was all thrown out. Yeah, the whole case fell apart. So does part of you say this should never have happened, but the system worked? No, because the only reason the case fell apart is because a colleague of Mahmood had a guilty conscience.
32:01Will Gallois:If everyone had played their role within the sting and did what they were hired to do and what they had been doing for 20 plus years, then the system would have failed me. I only had the case fall apart because Alan Smith, the driver, stepped forward and put himself essentially, he faced prison off the back of what he did because he admitted that he went to the police and lied. which obviously it's not the first time they've done that. They've obviously been doing that for years and he admitted in my case, look, I've told a porky, she did have an anti-drugs conversation in the car. It was evident that she didn't do drugs, that she had nothing to do with drugs.
32:43I did change my statement to stop anyone finding that out
32:47Will Gallois:and it was only him coming forward and saying that that made the case fall apart. It was that lie and him admitting that lie. Otherwise, the system would have completely failed me and I would have been banged to rights. I wasn't even allowed in court to tell my side of the story, re the entrapment, because the way they had organised it is the woman that kept pulling me aside, telling me to go and say these things. because she was just a journalist that was hired she had journalistic privilege and she did not have to come to court and if she didn't have to come to court I was not allowed to mention her in court so therefore I wouldn't be able to even explain my defense of the entrapment.
33:30Will Gallois:Could you explain the entrapment without identifying the woman? No I was told by my lawyer I would have to shout out in court and be held in contempt of court and probably sent to a cell by the judge and I was going to have to shout out to the jury what had happened to me if I wanted them to know because I had been told by the judge I could not mention the entrapment because I couldn't mention this woman because she had journalistic privileges so because of a technicality which they were obviously very aware of I was quite literally banged to rights. So 13 years later you are prepared to dredge up this really really unpleasant period of your life.
34:12Will Gallois:Yeah. Because we've got a new Prime Minister, essentially. Is that right? I didn't time it for that. I actually had no idea. Like I said, I'm quite a spiritual person. So part of me did go, divine timing is that, you know, the fact that Andy Burnham has stepped in now. I would hope he's someone that's a bit more, you know, pro than the person before him. Pro, we should explain. Pro, the second part of Leveson, which was, to remind our younger listeners and viewers, it was an attempt to clean up bad practice in the press, in journalism. And the second part of Leveson never happened, actually, because I think it was Matt Hancock threw it out, 2018.
34:56Will Gallois:And this had been to do with how police informants work alongside journalists. But there's been no real appetite to go any further. with sort of press regulation. And there's been a lot of pushback from the press who say, actually, we have cleaned things up. I mean, I guess my question to you is, in 2026, this wouldn't happen, would it? Don't you think that we've come far enough to say, you know, we don't read about Sting's, the fake Sheikh doesn't do his stuff, and we are much more conscious, particularly since the death of Caroline Flack of how vulnerable young women, anyone actually, can be to the sort of claws of bad practice?
35:47Will Gallois:I feel like it sort of doesn't happen until it does. I always feel like when things are sensitive, then of course, like maybe right now in this moment, it wouldn't happen. But you can find a few years pass down the line and before you know it, it gets done in a different way. It's like music, it gets recycled in a sense. And it's more than just entrapment. I've been speaking to, you know, like Mandy Gardner is a good example, someone whose daughter died in a horrific accident. Her last moments were put across the Daily Mail and she obviously put in a complaint and was told there was no negligence there.
36:34Will Gallois:It's everyday people. It's much bigger than just entrapment. And my biggest issue, more than the Leveson Inquiry, is the clash between independent press regulation and then it being funded by the press. I'm all for the regulation being funded by the press. My issue is that the panel, if it's made up half of ex-newspaper editors, there's a conflict of interest there. So my interest right now is... I mean, this is to do with Ipso, which is essentially the body that regulates journalism. Yeah. I mean, they say we are for accountable journalism. We regulate the UK newspaper magazine, digital news industry.
37:22We are independent of government, parliament and publishers, and we are funded indirectly by the publishers.
37:29Will Gallois:We regulate through an arm's length body with no say in how the organisation is run. And if I'd have looked at the stats where, you know, OK, there was X amount of fines given out since 2014 when it started, I'd say, OK, or, you know, more than one percent of complaints have been taken further. But when I see there's been zero fines since 2014 and, you know, less than 1 % of complaints actually get taken further, then I go, OK, something doesn't smell right. And then I start looking into who runs it. So and then I find out that half of the panel is made up for ex-editors. So they're essentially marking the homework of their old friends in journalism.
38:12Will Gallois:Then I start to go, OK, something's not not right here. And this is the conversation that I'm essentially, you know, sparking. I don't pretend to be someone that is particularly into politics or to understand it or, you know, the way the government works. I'm someone that's had a terrible experience and off the back of that experience, wanted to educate myself and know more. And this is the rabbit hole that I've gone down. And I'm basically standing here saying something isn't right in my eyes. I mean, it's interesting because we had Ipso on the newsagents a couple of years ago after that Jeremy Clarkson column about Meghan Markle.
38:52Will Gallois:Do you remember when he sort of talked about having some shit thrown at her or whatever? It was a Game of Thrones thing. And from what I remember, they did find against him. I don't know if there was a fine, but they kind of pulled it up and they said, you know, this is not past the standards. It's just one example, obviously. And that was a public example. And that was a very public example. Imagine the people that don't even know about Ipso or, you know, the people that don't have a voice. So you're basically saying Ipso doesn't work? I'm saying it's not working how it should or to the extent it should.
39:25Will Gallois:If I'm looking at those figures, then for me, it's not rocket science. I'm like, there's no way you've got the people running the panel being ex-editors and then the people funding it being the press. It's just a conflict of interest. And then you've got zero fines given out since 2014 and 1 % of complaints being taken any further. For me, it's just like, come on, like something's going. You don't think it's because the press have actually upped their game? I mean, upped their game of, you know, being a bit more deviant. For me, that is just, it's like on paper, it's like clear as day. It's not right.
40:06Will Gallois:Something's not working. And even the people that I've been meeting, like someone like Mandy, I'm like, that should have gone further, a case like that. Have you talked to Lisa Nandy about it? I mean, she's back in as the Secretary for Culture, Media and Sport. I guess this is her remit, is it? So far, in terms of people in power, I've spoke to Angela Raynham. I've spoke to an MP called Josh Newbery. This is where I've started and I'm still in the process. I'm speaking to more, but that's where I've started. And what response? Well, right now it's just discussions because it's how far can they go and we're having the talks about how can we get this brought up in Parliament and what can they do on their part.
40:54Will Gallois:So it is a lot of waiting on my end to see what can be done. So I spark the conversation and see their interest in it. I'm just looking at the dates here. Your horrific experience was 2013. In 2011, what was then the news of the world shut down after the Millie Dowler scandal and others, part of the Leveson findings. I mean, did you think when it had re-emerged as the Sun on Sunday in 2013, would you have said, actually, it's time for that to shut down too? I feel like to just look at one corporation and go, that's bad. It's way more than that. I think it's about individuals. And even when I'm asking for that independent regulation, it's not because I hate the press in general or have an issue with the whole press.
41:47Will Gallois:say oh I've got friends that are journalists it's almost about the one percent of just certain individuals that are in power and just like in every big corporation in this world there are some people that aren't very nice people that have malicious intent and will step on whoever and whatever to get where they want to go or earn whatever they want to earn and that's more what I would like to have regulation over is that making sure those individuals don't have the power and freedom to just do whatever the hell they want and hurt people in the process Yeah. And when you said you felt at the time this should be illegal.
42:23Will Gallois:Yeah. I couldn't believe it wasn't. Honestly, my mind was so not much shocks me. Like I've had quite an intense life. And I tell you, in that moment, I literally could not believe. imagine I was 22 when I was an ex-factor judge so I was so young and for this to be happening to me I was literally sat in my own country sat in Britain going is is this the world that I live in this is okay there's adults in charge of this saying yeah we can do this to to a young woman like I was mortified I don't know how I built my trust back in humans again after an experience like that Talisa thank you thank you thank you for having me and we just had a statement back from Ipso and it reads like this.
43:08Will Gallois:The 2012 Leveson report endorsed the idea of continued self-regulation of the press, including funding by the industry. Ipso launched in 2014 with new safeguards in place to protect our independence and new powers to tackle serious and systemic editorial standards failures. Last year, 68 % of complaints that raised a possible breach of the code of practice were either upheld or resolved with an agreed settlement. 85 % of complainants whose complaints were taken forward said they would recommend Ipso to others in a similar situation. We would always encourage anyone with concerns about press intrusion to contact our harassment helpline available on our website.
43:47Will Gallois:Our privacy notice service can protect privacy and is widely observed by news organisations whether Ipso regulated or not.
44:03Molly Kingsley:This is Ashley Akinetti from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Amos podcast. Ben, I've been reflecting a lot lately on how many big life moments our listeners have experienced with us. Yeah, it's pretty wild. They've watched us go from dating shows to engagements, weddings, babies, buying homes. Every stage comes with new decisions.
44:22Will Gallois:The milestones are the fun part, but the planning is where things get real.
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44:49Will Gallois:Download the Klarna app today or visit Klarna.com to learn more.
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45:12Will Gallois:Before we go, a little something to get you in the mood for the weekend. And according to The Guardian, we are hearing that Westminster Council wants pubs in Soho and the West End in London to ban standing. What do they call this? Vertical drinking? Vertical drinking. Go on. So you're not allowed to stand and drink at the same time?
45:33Molly Kingsley:Yes, this is part of Westminster Council's ongoing war on anybody who wants to have fun in its borough at any time. Between the hours of six and eight. Well, yes, Westminster Council have been accused of trying to put a stop to people ordering at the bar and indeed wanting to not allow vertical drinking under its new draft licensing policy. This follows a story a little while ago from the Soho Society, who sort of people. Well, Soho Society are basically people who live in the busiest night spot in Europe who are absolutely livid about nightlife. And so what they do, they just really can't stand it.
46:11Molly Kingsley:I mean, of course, they could live anywhere else, but actually what they're choosing to do is live there. And what they're going to, they are objecting to every single new bar or hospitality venue which opens in Westminster or in Soho. So, yeah. Cheers, lads. I suppose if you not allowed vertical drinking, you allowed horizontal drinking.
46:28Will Gallois:You have to lie down and put your head back.
46:31Molly Kingsley:And yeah, I mean, I can't see any problem with that. Well, nothing says British nightlife, does it? Quite like replacing the scrum at the bar with an orderly cue and a QR code. can't wait for Friday night get your QR code out
46:45Will Gallois:for the lads
46:47Molly Kingsley:have a lovely weekend we'll be back tomorrow see you then bye bye
47:11Will Gallois:Ask questions. But when it's time to make decisions, make them with a doctor. Learn more at amahealthvshype.org. That's amahealthvshype.org.
47:23Molly Kingsley:This has been a global production.
From the publisher
24 hours on from the Tory neo-Nazigate , a curious development. The candidate himself, Joshua Bonehill-Paine, has now withdrawn from the election in Somerset council - only to find himself promoted by the Conservative leader herself to a national advisory role.
Why is 'no gaffes' Kemi choosing this eccentric hill to make her point - and what in fact is it? Meanwhile, she’s given an interview ruling out any future pact with Reform - and lambasting THEIR leader as "too woke". All ok, Kemi?
Later, the singer Tulisa was the victim of a sting 13 years ago by the Sun on Sunday. It nearly destroyed her life. She tells Emily why she wants to make this kind of journalism illegal - and the petition she’s begun to change the way newspapers are regulated.
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