Will Starmer have the guts to punish Musk for his undressing app?

16:05Sadiq Khan:And that's why I welcome the regulator looking into what X does. Firstly, I think I'm not sure how practical it is.

16:13Jon Sopel:Do you think the government should be doing more and not kind of saying, oh, this might challenge America. So let's off come deal with this and not Downing Street.

16:20Sadiq Khan:Well, my view is if the regulation, the law is inadequate, the Online Safety Act, we need to change the law. And from what I understand with what Ofcom are saying today is they'll investigate, they'll serve notice of their conclusions to X, X have a chance to respond. And there is a sanction potentially of fines. If that doesn't go far enough and X don't change their behaviour, I think we should look at whether the legislation is fit for purpose. I think the legislation, in my view, should be the floor, not the ceiling.

16:48Lewis Goodall:But it's very clear, isn't it? Mac, are you talking about regulation? Musk isn't interested in regulation. He's not interested. He calls any attempt to regulate his platform fascism. And what we're talking here is quite a low bar, right? We're talking about ensuring that women, the images of women and even children are not manipulated in a sexual fashion, in a non-consensual way. And he calls that fascism. I mean, this is heading for some confrontation, isn't it? Well, actually, when you look at the...

17:16Sadiq Khan:It's really important we address head-on this assertion that limiting free speech is fascism. The right to free speech is not an unlimited right. Look at the jurisprudence coming from the United States of America, the European Convention, or this country. We've got laws around censorship that limits free speech. We've got laws around national security that limits free speech. We've got laws around defamation that limits free speech. We've got laws around incitement that limits free speech. And he calls quite a lot of that fascism. Both in the USA and the UK. And I'd say in a respectful way to great Americans and great Brits remember our history remember our history and remember why it is we love our countries and this idea that we allow an individual to make this sweeping assertion about our country based upon regulation I think is wrong we should respond to it There's been 12 ,000 arrests in relation to infringements of free speech Well I'm not sure about where that figure what I do know is when it comes to laws around free speech a lot of them are civil not criminal there are very limited rules around criminal law and free speech most of them are civil the remedy for defamation is a civil remedy.

18:20Sadiq Khan:The criminal remedies are very limited around incitement and around national security.

18:24Lewis Goodall:But I just wonder what you think in terms of the effects of politics, Mayor Khan. As you say, you talk about diversity, you talk about the importance of progressive politics. How does progressive politics respond to a man who is possibly the most powerful, one of the most powerful, certainly one of the richest men in the world, who controls one of the most influential information platforms in the world, who is regularly, just in the last 24 hours, retweeting and tweeting white supremacist content, suggesting that the United States is going to head the way of post-apartheid South Africa is going without re-emigration, who is routinely posting that sort of content that we would have once considered not only fringe, but the preserve of the far right.

19:02Lewis Goodall:That tweet alone about what's going to happen to America without re-emigration has been seen 37 million times. Is that not a profound threat to exactly the sort of politics that you're saying is a great strength?

19:12Sadiq Khan:Well, but Elon Musk isn't the only person normalising racism, by the way, normalizing these views. And so my starting point is to respond and rebut to views that are wrong. Secondly, to articulate my concern, which is if you're an ethnic minority, if you're a member of a minority, if you're a woman, you want to think twice or thrice about becoming a politician or putting your head above the parapet, because if they think this is what you get for doing this, you mentioned the importance of tackling the lack of regulation around AI and Grok. But the third point I'd make is this. Look, it's really important we remember not just where we are now in terms of the benefits of diversity and the benefits of equality, but also where we've come from and push back.

19:57Sadiq Khan:Because I think in the end, the best way to respond to somebody who's got views that are abhorrent is to respond with debate. And the vast, vast majority of people in this country are decent and they'll reject the views of Musk.

20:08Lewis Goodall:Have a progressive politician been too weak?

20:10Sadiq Khan:I think we've got to have more confidence, more confidence to articulate our values, more confidence to understand, you know, where this is heading. When I see the rise of nativist populists across the globe, whether it's the USA or Hungary or elsewhere, of course, I get nervous. But then I see the response from progressive, whether it's Canada or Australia or UK and France. We've got to be more confident in relation to this issue. We are seeing more polarization. That worries me. We are seeing people trying to sow the seeds of division. That worries me. And one of the reasons why I welcome the election of Zohar Mamdani, as I do indeed my three elections in London, is London has rejected fear and chose hope.

20:51Sadiq Khan:London has rejected division and chose a unity. And I'm confident if we can articulate the benefits of our values, more people will be on our side, whether it's in the UK or the USA as well.

21:01Jon Sopel:So let's put the far right argument to you, which is that, you know, and you can use the phrase from Donald Trump's national security strategy about Europe facing civilizational erasure. And some of the things he's said about you, you only get elected because, you know, so many foreigners have come into this country. I mean, I think in 1961, London was 93 percent white. It's probably less than half now. In 2021, it was 53 percent. that London has changed beyond all recognition. And this is what the far right are talking about when they talk about civilizational erasure.

21:35Sadiq Khan:Well, look, I mean, we're an island. How far back do you go in terms of immigration? The Vikings? Well, I'm talking about 60 years in people's lifetime. That's, you know, quite a profound change. Well, I think there's two issues. One is I'm somebody who speaks from personal experience and is saying I'm born and raised in London. So my grandparents were migrants from India to Pakistan. My parents are migrants from Pakistan to the UK. I can go nowhere. I've got nowhere else to go to. I'm born and raised in South London.

22:01Lewis Goodall:But they say you're not English, Makan. You know that. They say that you're not truly English. Yeah. That's where the debate has moved to.

22:06Sadiq Khan:Yeah, but if we're taking somebody's, you know, nationality based upon where they were born, I mean, Boris Johnson wasn't born in the UK either. I could give a number of examples of Great Britons not born in the country in which they're naturalized or which becomes their country of choice. And I think it's a really dangerous argument to have. You could go to President Trump himself, where his grandparents are originally from as well. But actually, look at the contribution great countries have had from people who are from a different country of origin. I think the flag of your country of origin or the color of the flag of your country of origin or the color of your skin shouldn't be the criteria upon we judge the contribution made by citizens.

22:44Sadiq Khan:And I think it's a really dangerous argument. And we should push back and explain that actually one of the reasons why many of us love America is civil rights movement, is great American politicians, is the contribution made by successive waves of migrants in the USA. And indeed, whether you look at the UK or France or elsewhere, there's a different conversation, by the way, about controlling migration. We've got to control migration. We've got to have strong borders. We've got to make sure that people integrate. I think it's really important to speak the first language. Look, the ability of my dad to go to a parents' evening was made much better because you could speak English.

23:15Sadiq Khan:The ability to be a bus driver, I'm not sure if I've mentioned this, but that was a bus driver. He couldn't do it.

23:21Lewis Goodall:I knew the Prime Minister's dad was a toolmaker. I don't know. It's a vague rumour. I'm sure.

23:25Sadiq Khan:They're different conversations. And there is an issue about, you know, if there's too much migration over a short period of time, the impact it has on public services. Those are different conversations from what you're alluding to, which is the far right asserting you're never really a pucker Brit or a pucker American if the colour of Michigan is different. I mean, Rishi Sunak, I mean, you know, the idea that Rishi, who may be from a different political party, but that Rishi Sunak isn't an Englishman or a Brit is ridiculous.

23:52Lewis Goodall:There is, though, an argument, and we've heard it articulated again today. I don't know if you've seen, but the former Tory Chancellor, Nadim Zahawi, has defected to reform, become the latest Conservative to defect to reform. He's made an argument to say, and he says this, of course, from a Muslim background himself, he is arguing that Britain has an unaddressed problem with Islamic sectarianism. Indeed, he argued that at the next election, he thinks there will be a wave of sectarian Islamist parties or candidates standing in British cities and displacing, in his words, half the cabinets. And that we've ignored the problem of political Islamism in this country for too long.

24:26Sadiq Khan:What would your response to that be? Well, I'm not sure what he's referring to and stuff. And I need to speak a bit more with Nadim to understand what he's talking about and to respond in kind. I'm somebody who works incredibly hard bringing people together, visiting synagogues and mosques and gorodbaras and temples and churches and so forth. Because I think it's really important to get people mixing and mingling. I think it can be quite a problem if you've got people living in silos. I'm not sure what Nadim's referring to, so it'd be for him to explain. But I think using that sort of language is a problem.

25:01Sadiq Khan:Let me tell you why it's a problem.

25:01Lewis Goodall:Well, he's actually compared Britain as it is at the moment to the Iraq of his childhood. That's how sectarian he believes Britain is becoming.

25:07Sadiq Khan:Yeah, but let me tell you the impact of his words on people who may live in parts of the country where they've not got a Muslim neighbor or a Muslim work colleague or somebody who's Muslim. They will assume that every single Muslim is involved in sectarian politics and every single Muslim is somebody who's got an ulterior motive. And that's just not the case. And so I'm not sure what Nadeem is driving at. You know, there may be problems in relation to people's concerns around particular issues and stuff. our job as politicians and as leaders is to address any fears people may have, to respond to concerns they have.

25:44Sadiq Khan:And I think the way, generally speaking, is to offer hope rather than fear.

25:48Lewis Goodall:We talked a lot. I mean, in a way, our conversation, something we talk about on the show a lot is the kind of weird fusion that's taken place, particularly over the last year between US and UK politics. And it feels as if there's almost one conversation going on. And it's not just from us to them. They talk about us a lot. Certainly the right of American politics talk about you a lot. They talk about our city, London a lot. They talk about the UK a lot. There has been, actually, both from the Conservative Party and Reform, a suggestion that what we need is a British ICE, i.e. the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, that is being used by President Trump at the moment to deport lots of people, and indeed, sometimes even American citizens.

26:27Lewis Goodall:Reformer actually pledged to create one. So have Kemmy Badenow. What do you make of that? And if you were mayor of the city when that came about, would you cooperate with the British ICE?

26:35Sadiq Khan:Well, can I explain the consequences of ICE to Americans that are talking about the experience of ICE? It means if you're somebody who may have been born in another country but has become naturalized, if you're somebody who's got a skin color that's not white, you're petrified about the tap on your shoulder, or worse. You're petrified about your nationality being questioned, your loyalty being questioned. You're petrified about being deported to a country you've never been to. Now, of course, there's got to be proper controls at our borders. And of course, you need to enforce the laws or people have broken the laws in terms of being here who shouldn't be here.

27:11Sadiq Khan:But the idea that you have a situation where people are looking to ice for inspiration is not something that I subscribe to. But also, I think we should at the same time talk up the benefits of lawful migration, but also talk about the disbenefits. the reason why I'm going to address illegal migration at the same time. I think it's possible to do both. Let me just ask you this.

27:31Jon Sopel:Do you think you're winning the argument? You are there as a sort of symbol of multiculturalism, of a liberal London. You've won three terms in office. But in the rest of the country, it feels like reform is very much on the rise, dominant in the opinion polls. And you are being used as the exemplar by them of all that can go wrong. and they seem to be garnering support as a result almost.

27:57Sadiq Khan:Well, one of the reasons I welcome being asked to be a news agency is to not just rebut some of these myths and untruths about London, but also to talk up why diversity is a strength, why I talk about the difference it makes to our great city. And here's the fact they can't argue with it. My question was, are you winning the argument? The question they can't argue with is the evidence, right? As a former lawyer, I think you win cases with evidence and with strong arguments based upon the evidence. And I can understand, by the way, if people only have, you know, one point of view being presented to them, they might subscribe to the follow through, which is vote reform.

28:33Sadiq Khan:So, for example, if reform are playing in your fears because you can't get decent housing, because you can't get decent health care, because you can't get kids into local school, and they're saying the reason is because of the other, you can understand why there's not a counter view. They may decide to support reform. The response is actually we've not invested enough in the National Health Service. we've not invested enough in local schools, we've not built enough council homes and that's why it's incredibly important to address people's fears and concerns rather than play on them. Thank you very much indeed.

29:02Sadiq Khan:Thank you.

29:21Jon Sopel:Discover how today's story affects your life.

29:24Lewis Goodall:Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app.

29:28Jon Sopel:LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

29:35Jon Sopel:The News Agents.

29:37Lewis Goodall:Something we came to expect in 2025 on Mondays were the regular drumbeat of reform press conferences. Sometimes a bit of a surprise, sometimes much trail, sometimes quite dramatic, sometimes completely humdrum. Well, they've had their first for 2026. And guess what? They've got a new member.

29:57Jon Sopel:I'm here today to tell you all, and of course, the British people, that Britain needs reform. Britain needs Nigel Farage as Prime Minister. I know this may come as a surprise to my old party and to many Westminster watchers, but it really shouldn't. and it certainly won't come as a shock to the tens of millions of hard-working, patriotic, decent people up and down our wonderful United Kingdom. So that very lyrical defection was coming from Nadim Zahawi, former chairman of the Conservative Party, well-known figure in conservative circles and saying what Britain needs now more than anything else is Nigel Farage to be the next Prime Minister.

30:47Jon Sopel:And I guess Nadim Zahawi is a big name, a big defection from the Conservative Party to reform. I mean, there are elements of his career, which maybe we could dwell on a tiny bit, which has shown that he has been an opportunist in the past. But he is now taking his opportunity because he thinks the best chance for the next election of who is going to win will be Farage.

31:12Lewis Goodall:Zahawi is by far, I think, the most senior former Conservative now or person associated with the last Conservative government to defect to reform. Previously, that had been Danny Kruger, I think had only been a junior minister of parliamentary undersecretary of state. Now, Zahawi, as you say, John, had been Tory party chairman. He had been education secretary. He'd been much heralded as the vaccines minister during the Covid period. He was for about 40 seconds chancellor of the Excheca. Yes. In the interregnum between Boris Johnson and Liz Truss. people remember and Sunak resigned as Chancellor.

31:44Lewis Goodall:Zahawi was put in to replace him and about a few days later called on Boris Johnson to go. So he's no stranger to a little bit of political intrigue, well liked within the Conservative Party, well liked actually within Westminster, you know, a Brexiter of very long standing, very closely associated with Boris Johnson. So yeah, clearly a scalp for the Reform Party. Kemi Bader not been on a bit of a roll recently in terms of that slightly diffuse commodity of momentum. She's been doing quite well at Prime Minister's Questions, There's been some evidence of a bit of a polling bounce for her personally, maybe a bit for the Conservative Party reform on the slide a little bit.

32:18Lewis Goodall:So that will dent potentially some of that momentum. The danger, of course, for reform is that this is the latest of a string of former MPs. And you will have noted, John, that they all tend to be rather alike. Where are they all from? They're all from the Conservative Party. And not just the Conservative Party, but a particular wing of the Conservative Party, which is the sort of hardcore, radical right, Brexiter right bit of the Conservative Party, perhaps most associated with Boris Johnson and his trust, those sorts of people. and so it is a potential vulnerability that I know some reform have been grappling with the extent to which they should absorb more defectors from the Conservative Party because of course it burnishes the argument from the Labour Party which will be made again and again and again and again that these are just a bunch of people from Farage down a bunch of Tories in reform clothing.

33:06Jon Sopel:Now the thing about Nidazine Zahawi which will be a plus for Nigel Farage if you think of who is going to be the minister for the morning rounds Who is good televisually? Who is good on the radio? Zahawi is a very effective communicator and does that very well. He's also shown himself to be very prickly when people start investigating his own financial affairs. And he used some pretty, well, he used some pretty dodgy legal mechanisms to issue these slap orders where he threatened anyone with libel actions if they dared to write about any of these subjects. which has a very chill effect on journalists' ability to do investigations.

33:48Jon Sopel:And he was found out in the end and humiliated by that whole process. So, you know, Zahawi has got a past track record as well. But Zahawi is from a very interesting background and very unlike a lot of conservative MPs. I mean, his family fled Iraq and his dad was a very well placed. I think he was the governor of the Bank of Iraq back in the day. and so was from a very well-to-do, wealthy Iraqi background, but came to Britain with little and that to learn the language and all the rest of it. However, one of the more improbable allusions he made for leaving and talking about the state of Britain today was to compare Britain now with Iraq when presumably Saddam Hussein was in charge.

34:35Jon Sopel:I also know a thing or two about growing up in a country that is fundamentally broken. riven by sectarian strife, economic depression and cratering living standards. The sickness is no surprise to anyone. To anyone trying to get a doctor's appointment. To anyone who wants to express an opinion, whether on X or even just down the pub. To anyone who wants their children to be taught facts, not harmful fictions at school. to anyone just trying to earn a living and not get crushed into the dirt by ever-growing taxes. Even if you don't yet realise that Britain needs reform, you know in your heart of hearts that our wonderful country is sick.

35:28Jon Sopel:How many of you at home have thought to yourselves that nothing works today? I know I have and I have a damn sight easier than most people.

35:41Lewis Goodall:So two things about that that strike me about what Zahawi was saying. Number one is it kind of illustrates what I was just trying to say about the dangers of having too many defectors who are very closely associated with the last conservative government, which is what did Zahawi open with there? So, you know, we're living in a country where you can't get a doctor's appointment. Well, whose fault is that? I mean, yes, his government have been in 18 months. Yes, progress on public services clearly isn't as fast as anyone would like, including them. But the reason, I mean, you know, when Labour left office in 2010, you could get a doctor's appointment relatively easily.

36:11Lewis Goodall:You know, public services are in a relatively great state. The reason that you can't get a doctor's appointment is because of 14 years of Conservative government. Now, you know, you can make an argument about all of the structural things that buffeted them along the way. But that is undoubtedly the case. Governments that Zahawi was part of oversaw that decline. That is unarguable. That's a problem for reform because it's an argument that can be placed upon them. And then secondly, you know, again, Zahari, who I think is, you know, I've always known as a reasonably kind of pragmatic conservative kind of figure.

36:40Lewis Goodall:Yes, I think definitely with some ideology on the right of the party, perhaps, but a reasonably kind of sensible, pragmatic kind of figure. There again, basking in the sort of boiling water of the radical right, sounding so fevered in so many ways. I mean, that allusion, as you say, John, to Britain being like a rack of his childhood, the sort of sectarian kind of the sectarian madness of a rack of that time of that sort of collapsing state. You know, this is this is Britain has got profound problems. Of course it has. But we were talking in the first half there exactly with that disconnect. There is the Britain of the fevered imaginations of the radical right, where sometimes there is a kernel of truth to a story, but it is exaggerated and becomes a dystopia with almost no intervening period whatsoever.

37:26Lewis Goodall:And Zahawi is now like, unfortunately, quite a bit of reform. The danger is, is that so much of the right in Britain now seems to be swimming in those seas. and that's bad for politics because it takes politics in frenzied, fevered directions but it's also, I would say, bad for reform and bad for the right of politics because they start to seem and sound eccentric, fringe and weird. So I think Zahawi's trajectory there is one that many on the right of British politics have gone on in recent years and it's sad to see.

37:53Jon Sopel:I think it's terrible when you get people who are just... I mean, does Nadim Zahawi really think this country is like the Iraq of Saudi? A police state. A police state, no. and you're just saying it to get a headline, to get some attention. And you just think it bears no relationship. And because it's the language of that part of politics now. Yeah. It bears no relation to reality. Can I just read you this from Nadeem Zahawi? Nigel Farage, no chance. Been a Conservative all my life and will die a Conservative.

38:24Lewis Goodall:How times have changed. Well, that was a tweet from Nadeem Zahawi, I think, when he was being asked if he would join UKIP. I mean, admittedly, it was 12 years ago, I think, but nonetheless. Another tweet from that time, And again, this is the problem with defections, right? Because you can just, people just dredge this up, particularly in a digital age. Zahawi tweeted in 2015, I'm not British born, Mr. Nigel Farage. I'm as British as you are. Your comments are offensive and racist. I will be frightened to live in a country run by you. And that's not just the change of party. Again, I think that speaks to the change in the centre right of British politics.

38:56Lewis Goodall:I've no doubt Zahawi didn't have much time for Farage's politics back in 2015. But he does in 2026 because Farage has been enormously influential in dragging the right of British politics toward him. And generally speaking, as well, the right of politics in the US, the UK has become far more radical. I'd say just one other thing as well. And you say, you know, we shouldn't forget Zahawi had to resign as Conservative Party chairman, as you say, because of his tax affairs and, you know, serious breach of the ministerial code. So that will come up as well. But although, you know, personally I have quite a bit of time for Zahawi, I said particularly when he was a Conservative minister, I always thought he was one of the decent ones.

39:32Lewis Goodall:I think from whatever party, defectors kind of, I don't know, I haven't got much time for defectors. I feel something for Baden-Ock on this. I can totally understand why she would be mega pissed off. And this would be for a Labour defector or Conservative defector. I think unless you have a very good reason, i.e. you've been driven out of your party in whatever way, you've been subject to particularly appalling treatment, whatever. If you're just leaving because you see which way the wind is blowing and you think you fancy it go at that. And Zahari was doing this thing. We hear Farage do this and others.

40:00Lewis Goodall:They do this whole kind of, I could have a great life in business. I could have this. You can. No one's forcing you to go back into politics. We all know the reason you're going back into politics is you like politics, which is fine, but don't pretend you're being dragged towards it. At the end of the day, the thing with defectors is, unless you are a truly stunning politician, which most of these defectors, if not all, never are, because by definition, or most of the fact that they're defecting, unless you're a stunning politician, The only reason anyone has ever heard of you is because of the party that you were part of.

40:29Lewis Goodall:They give you everything, right? He was Tory party chairman. He was a Stratford MP for, what, 15 years. You know, I always think it's so offensive to the activists who get no glory, get nothing, and they just traipse the streets, pound the pavement, stuff the letterboxes day after day to get you elected because they believe partly in you, but also they believe in the party banner that you're representing. And then you turn around and you go, actually, you know what? screw you, screw you, screw the party I can see that politics is moving in another direction and I'm going to join them you know, no one heard of you no one voted for you, the only reason anyone knows who you are is because of the rosette you wore and I just think it's offensive really.

41:09Lewis Goodall:We'll be back in just a moment

41:20Jon Sopel:The News Agents

41:22Lewis Goodall:Right, before we go, we've got very used to Americans on the MAGA right talking about the UK and talking about what an absolute hellscape the UK has become over the last year. So I think it's only right maybe for us to return the favour a little bit. And just in case you didn't think that the United States had been turning hard towards authoritarianism over the last year, then there's something that's happened over the weekend that just gives an extra little lift to that bit of analysis.

41:48Jon Sopel:It is extraordinary. What is happening is that the Justice Department has launched a criminal investigation to the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, Jay Powell. And it is equivalent to the prime minister saying, I am going to prosecute the governor of the Bank of England, not because of financial mismanagement, but because he didn't like the way the governor was doing an extension to the building of the Bank of England. And just have a listen to the way Jerome Powell has had to come out and more or less say, this is a politically motivated witch hunt by Donald Trump because I won't cut interest rates.

42:31Jon Sopel:Have a listen. On Friday, the Department of Justice served the Federal Reserve with grand jury subpoenas, threatening a criminal indictment related to my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June.

42:44Lewis Goodall:That testimony concerned, in part, a multi-year project to renovate historic Federal Reserve office buildings. I have deep respect for the rule of law and for accountability in our democracy. No one, certainly not the chair of the Federal Reserve, is above the law. But this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress's oversight role. The Fed, through testimony and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project.

43:26Lewis Goodall:Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. I have served at the Federal Reserve under four administrations, Republicans and Democrats alike. In every case, I have carried out my duties without political fear or favor, focused solely on our mandate of price stability and maximum employment.

44:10Lewis Goodall:Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people. That was an absolutely astounding intervention from Jay Powell, who published that video across social media channels. Chairman of the Federal Reserve does not do stuff like this. They are largely unseen. And just a way to think about this, as John was saying, the pretense here, Trump has claimed that he didn't know anything about it. But the pretense here is this is about, yeah, an extension to the building of the Federal Reserve.

44:42Lewis Goodall:The actual reason for this has got a long history. But basically, even though Jay Powell was appointed by Donald Trump in the first administration as the governor, basically Trump has been highly dissatisfied with Jay Powell and the Federal Reserve not reducing interest rates as rapidly as Trump believes that they should be decreased. As there has been in this country since 1997, there's been an even longer history in the United States of interest rate decisions being taken independently away from the federal government. Powell, to his credit, according to most analysts, you know, has resisted entirely political pressure from the White House.

45:16Lewis Goodall:He served under four different administrations, Republican and Democratic. And he has resisted political pressure and that has generated Trump's fury. And it is clear that this investigation against him is basically as a result of that unhappiness. And I'm sorry, it is textbook authoritarianism, really, is a textbook example of how democratic political institutions should not work and are starting to fail witch hunts. He loves that word witch hunt. This is clearly a witch hunt against someone that he does not like at the highest levels of the US government. As John said, it would be like the prime minister using the metropolitan police to go after the governor of the Bank of England because they didn't like an interest rate hike or the fact that an interest interest rates had not been cut.

45:59Lewis Goodall:It's mad. There will be more from some other health scape tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye bye. Bye bye.

46:04Jon Sopel:This has been a Global Player original production.