Zack Polanski on populism, patriotism and poverty

In short

Podcast Episode Notes: "Zack Polanski on Populism, Patriotism and Poverty"

Podcast Overview Title: The News Agents Hosts: Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, Lewis Goodall Description: The podcast offers astute analysis and explanation of the day's news, blending journalism with humor and skepticism.

Episode Summary Episode Title: Zack Polanski on Populism, Patriotism and Poverty Release Date: [Date Not Specified] Guest: Zack Polanski, leader of the Green Party in England and Wales.

In this episode, Lewis Goodall engages in an extended interview with Zack Polanski, who has recently been elected as the new leader of the Green Party. In a short period, Polanski has garnered significant attention and popularity, particularly among younger voters, becoming a symbol of hope within left-wing politics in the UK. The conversation covers his political journey, vision for the Green Party, and proposed policies.

Key Themes and Discussions

Polanski's Rapid Rise
New Leadership: Polanski has been leader for just 35 days, witnessing a surge in Green Party membership by 55%.
Cultural Impact: His modern communication style and clear, economically populist messaging resonate with younger voters and create a contrast with the traditional political establishment.

Political Vision
Breakup of the UK: Polanski supports the idea of breaking up the UK, reflecting on the need for self-determination for Wales and Scotland.
NATO Stance: He acknowledges that his views on NATO may conflict with public opinion but believes in focusing on redistributing power and resources.

Economic Focus
Policies on Poverty: Polanski emphasizes the connection between economic inequality and environmental issues, advocating for policies that lower bills and tax billionaires while tackling climate change.
Populism Redefined: He distinguishes his version of populism, which emphasizes the 99% versus the 1%, from that of figures like Nigel Farage, whom he views as representing wealthy elites.

Party Dynamics and Relations
Relations with Internal Leadership: Despite some tensions with party members who prioritize environmental issues, Polanski highlights a collaborative environment in the Green Party.
Potential Labour Defections: There is an open dialogue about Labour MPs potentially joining the Green Party, illustrating Polanski's growing influence.

Critique of Existing Narratives
Rejection of Neoliberalism: Polanski criticizes the neoliberal framework that suggests environmental protection and economic prosperity are mutually exclusive, arguing for a more integrated approach.
Addressing Climate Crisis: He believes that the climate crisis is inextricably linked to issues facing poorer communities and that solutions should reflect this interconnection.

International Relations and Security
NATO and Defense Spending: Polanski expresses skepticism about NATO's effectiveness and the reliance on military solutions, advocating for a focus on social and environmental security.
Calls for Global Leadership: He believes strong leadership is necessary to foster international cooperation on climate and social justice.

Personal Background and Emergence as a Politician
Journey to Politics: Initially unpolitical, Polanski's experiences in the U.S. and exposure to social injustices prompted his political awakening.
Identity and Representation: His Jewish heritage and experiences of anti-Semitism have shaped his perspectives on justice and representation.

Conclusion Zack Polanski's leadership of the Green Party marks a significant shift towards a more populist and economically focused agenda that aims to bridge the gap between environmental issues and social justice. His candid, charismatic approach is resonating with a base eager for change, positioning him as a formidable figure in UK politics.

Key Takeaways

Polanski's leadership symbolizes a revitalization of the Green Party amid changing political dynamics.
His populist approach seeks to unite various social groups against economic and environmental injustices.
The shifting landscape in UK politics may see the Green Party becoming an influential player in upcoming elections.

Additional Notes

Polanski's engaging style, combined with a clear policy agenda, sets the stage for a compelling electoral narrative.
The episode highlights the importance of addressing interconnected issues while maintaining a focus on economic justice.

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Transcript

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0:02Lewis Goodall:This is a Global Player original podcast. Not so long ago, we made an episode on the News Agents about the Green Party, basically asking, why weren't they turning up? Where were they? There felt like there was this great gaping space on the left of British politics, just waiting to be filled. Around that time, a government minister spoke to The Guardian, thanking Labour's lucky stars that the Greens were so off the pitch if they had any kind of charismatic or populist leadership, this person said, would be eight to ten points further down in the polls. Well, that luck may have just run out. Enter Zach Polanski, the new leader of the Green Party in England and Wales.

0:45Lewis Goodall:In just 35 days or so, he has lit up the political content machine, which defines and narrates so much of our political life. His videos and clear economically populist message have resonated, especially apparently with younger voters. The Greens have added tens of thousands of new members and there are signs already that that energy, that momentum might be translating into polling gains. Labour, long preoccupied with the populist threat to its right, may have found itself in a vice with one squeezing it to its left. But who is Zach Polanski? What does he believe? And why is what he's doing so different to all of the green leaders we've seen, often barely seen, before?

1:32Lewis Goodall:This is an extended conversation with the man himself on his political journey from hypnotherapist to immersive actor to Lib Dem to green populist. Could he, maybe, just maybe, be the answer to the left's political dreams and be Keir Starmer's newest nightmare. Welcome to The News Agents.

1:57Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. Well, we're joined now by the man himself, the man of the moment, it seems, certainly in left-wing politics, Zach Polanski. Thank you very much for having me. No, no, no, it's our pleasure. Look, the point of these extended conversations, right, is to have a conversation. It's not supposed to be a sort of deeply kind of classic interrogative radio interview. you we've done that bit of that so this is going to be about your principles really and your your political life but before we sort of you can interrupt me if you want though well it might happen we'll see that we'll see it might happen uh just before we get onto that though how long have you been green leader now about 35 days 35 that's very specific 35 days well we've had been

2:34Zack Polanski:heady well there's an amazing stat that every single minute 24 7 we've had a new member that's how many new members we've had since so what were you on that 110 000 at the time what were you on at the time of your 68 000 which is a for the whole membership it's a 55 increase across our entire membership of the green party so yeah it's pretty amazing i'm aware of like every moment someone asks me the first reaction is things are going incredibly well and i don't think there's any point in pretending otherwise it just feels really exciting people are stopping me in the street quite regularly and it's kind of constant saying i feel hope we can really do this and i'm feeling that too and at the same time I look at the state the country's in I think about the challenges that are facing us I think particularly about reform and you go yes it's really important to celebrate and it's really important to share this moment of hope and joy but you can't stay in that moment you've got to turn it into electoral success.

3:26Lewis Goodall:And obviously you won the Green Party leadership by almost kind of sort of dictatorship levels of sort of rigged election levels of a mark. It was a democratic election. No I don't of course it was but it was 85 % you You know, you don't normally get it. It was a crushing victory, I think it's fair to say. Why do you think that was? It was such a clear endorsement of your vision from the party itself and for the direction in which you wanted to take it, which was clearly different to your opponents. Why do you think it was so crushing?

3:52Zack Polanski:I can partly thank you, Lewis. So you did an interview with Owen Jones about maybe six, nine months ago, where you were talking about the Green Party. And you said that they really needed to take a leaf from Ed Davies' book, The Wetsuits for Stunts, for Gimmicks. and everything in me said, I just don't think that's right. I think the fundamental problem here is we're not communicating a very compelling vision and story the Green Party have. So it's not really the rise of Zach Polanski,

4:15Lewis Goodall:it's the rise of Lewis Goodall.

4:16Zack Polanski:That's what you really said. You take all the credit for being wrong, I think. Being wrong, right. That's happened before. Well, no, it wasn't even wrong. I think what you were saying was legitimate. I think there would have been a space to actually be a zany character and get out there and do the gimmicks. But I just thought the reason why a Davey, I think, needs to do the gimmicks is because they have 72 MPs and I'd love to have 72 MPs. so I'm not knocking that. But 72 MPs that I don't think believe in the same thing. I don't think there's a coherency around their political project. It used to be a Lib Dem, of course.

4:42Zack Polanski:Right, yeah, I mean, like 10 years ago. Still being held for the sins. Yeah, it is a party, I know. And there's a strong left in that party, and that's for the people I was aligned with. But I think Ed Davey literally wrote the Orange Book. He was a minister during the coalition. And so they've got people like Josh Barabundi, who I think is a great MP, who is, I would say, clearly on the left of the party, to people who I would say are to the right of where Labour are and could even be in the Tory party. And so they've got this huge spectrum of MPs where I don't think they have that unified voice and message.

5:12Zack Polanski:But the Green Party, our story is really clear. We want to lower bills. We want to tax billionaires. We want to protect the planet and tackle the climate crisis. And I think when you can communicate in those terms with a really strong narrative that can cut through, you don't need to do gimmicks.

5:25Lewis Goodall:But that is a very particular vision of the party because, of course, the Green Party itself, although up to now at least it's been much smaller than the other parties itself has had division, right? In a way, the division between you and your opponents in that election showed that you had two very different sort of approaches. One is, as you've just described, and we'll sort of get onto this in a bit more detail, but it is this more eco-populist kind of vision. It is about more sort of left-wing, unashamedly left-wing, radical agenda. And the other, of course, is about being more unashamed and more focused perhaps exclusively on green issues, maybe not rocking the boat as much, maybe appealing less to urban voters and more rural voters.

6:06Lewis Goodall:Now, I'm sure you'll say there's no division between those things and so on. But it was a distinctive vision, wasn't it? It was shifting the Green Party from where it's been, at least to some extent.

6:15Zack Polanski:I think the first thing to say is, without relitigating the leadership election, is that it was very noticeable there was almost zero difference around policy and around what the Green Party should actually be doing in Parliament. Adrian Ramsey didn't seem to like you very much. Well, but this is what I'm saying. So in terms of policy, though, like very, very much the same vision. I think the real difference was about how we communicate. And what has really struck me as leader, and almost I thought, if I'm really honest with you, I thought it was a problem I was going to have that I'm currently not having, is that even in our rural seats and rural communities, I'm getting messages every single evening saying, double the amount of people turned up tonight, triple the amount of people turned up in terms of members meetings.

6:50Zack Polanski:Now, that doesn't mean winning elections. We've seen that in history with leaders who are very popular, who have massive membership, and then don't go on to win the election. So it's not enough to win those rural communities. But it's a very clear sign that it's not that those rural communities, suddenly people aren't turning up or going, I don't believe in Zach's vision. It's quite the opposite. They're going, this is the vision of the Green Party that I want to see. How's your relationship with your parliamentary party?

7:11Lewis Goodall:With Adrian Ramsey and Ellie Chounds who ran against you, are you all getting on now?

7:15Zack Polanski:With Ellie Chounds, it's superb. I think from literally the moment that result was announced, I saw Ellie go do an interview where she just said, the election's been decided. This was Zach's vision. And I thought she gave a really good answer the other day in an interview. someone kind of pushed her and said do you think you should have been more zach during the election and her response was perfect she just said i'm ellie zach zach we've only got to be ourselves what about adrian so adrian's father's died a week or two ago so he's been on compassionate leave so i just genuinely haven't seen him but also the thing i would say is i was his deputy leader for the last three years and there were lots of things that we didn't agree on and we have worked together professionally and collegiately and i just know that will continue i think where the green party are different say to the labour party is the labour party have a history of factional infighting we just don't have that in the green party you can develop one though we can develop one and i'm determined as leader to work with the mps and make sure the green old guard like you yeah i think so i think it's really are you sure yeah there's no tension i think the tension is about some of them i think would like to see me talking about the environment more and the climate crisis more and i think that's undoubtedly a tension the argument i make to them both publicly and privately is that when you poll people the green party the most trusted party on the environment, including with other parties.

8:23Zack Polanski:You've got that territory. Yeah, so when I've got a microphone with me, why would I convince you of my credentials or the Green Party's credentials on the environment? I mean, I've chaired the Environment Committee for the last few years in London. I deeply care about the environment, but people know that. What they don't know is our plans to tackle the cost of living, our plans to protect the NHS, our policies on education, our health. And I think it's important to talk about those other policies, as well as the climate. Climate will always run through everything we do. But in terms of the first thing I talk about, it doesn't make sense to lead on the climate, despite the fact it is the most pressing issue it's an existential issue well exactly so we're called the green party everyone knows that we care about the climate crisis we want to reduce emissions we need climate adaptation i think there's other more interesting routes through it though so last week there was a report from the security council the intelligence chiefs of the government that said the biggest national security threat to this country or one of the biggest is food insecurity around the climate crisis now last thursday the government were going to launch this report and according to the guardian they've sat on it because they're not ready to deal with the consequences and so i think there's an interesting conversation there about how did the green party become more prominent on issues that people don't associate us with like the security of this country but do them through a different lens so not always talking about nuclear weapons but actually saying how we're going to protect this country from a pandemic from the climate crisis from food and security as well as the security of this country from the more

9:39Lewis Goodall:traditional things as well so it's interesting is it so you're and i think this is clear attention with some of your members because of course some of your members will say and i've you know interviewed them and others of your kind of, you know, sort of political bent, they'll say, look, the climate crisis is the most existential thing that's facing our planet. And they're right. Almost talking about anything else is wasting our time because everything else pales into insignificance by comparison. What is distinctive, I think, for people to understand listening to this about your approach is that it's different.

10:06Zack Polanski:You don't agree with that. Well, I do agree. It's absolutely existential threat. And I agree that it's rooted throughout everything. So if we talk about the housing crisis, for instance, a housing crisis, we need rent controls, and you can absolutely link rent controls with retrofitting. The fact that we're still building houses right now that will need to be retrofitted in just a few years time. What I mean by retrofitting, so if we're insulating homes, for instance, that's going to keep them cool in the summer, warm in the winter. That reduces bills, vital in the cost of living crisis. It creates green jobs.

10:34Zack Polanski:That's amazing for working with trade unions. But you don't start from there. That's the point, isn't it? You don't start from the climate element. You start from an economic element. I think that's exactly right. So if you're Greenpeace or you're Extinction Rebellion or an organisation that aren't a political party, it makes absolute sense that your whole thing is the climate crisis and to raise the alarm on the climate crisis. And I work with those organisations really well, and I'm really glad they exist. The Green Party's job is to campaign, to win seats, to change things within Parliament, the London Assembly, councils.

11:03Zack Polanski:So to make sure that we're using the power that we gain to be able to create change. To do that, why would you start with an issue that you know people aren't as concerned yet about as they should be? Now, it's part of our job but more of a wider movement's job to raise the salience of that issue to make sure that when people wake up the first thing they're thinking about is the fact that we don't we're not spending enough money on climate adaptation that we're at risks of floods and wildfires and we need to reduce our emissions we're not in that place though we're in a place where people are worried about putting food on the table heat in the homes but the really important point here and it's probably the most important point i'll make is if we talk about inequality the poorest communities are the ones that are being hit us hardest by the climate crisis so they're not separate conversations they're the exact same conversation do you think that maybe

11:45Lewis Goodall:part of let's broadly and rather inexactly call it sort of environmental movement all of the whether it's the political party the green party or you know some of the groups you've identified has there been an element in the past of maybe it being dominated by quite middle-class people who don't really understand just how press hard press people are is your leadership and what you're saying in a sense a critique to that view undoubtedly it's a searing critique of it um of

12:09Zack Polanski:the broader left and the broader green movement. I think it's really striking that Assad Raimann, who used to be the CEO of War on One, so this is a charity who work exclusively around global self-inequality and around poverty, is now the CEO of Friends of the Earth. And I think that's Friends of the Earth, along with Greenpeace also recognising that the real big threat to our environment is inequality. It's multimillionaires and billionaires, the big polluters, Shell, BP. So you think that people who are in the green movement,

12:37Lewis Goodall:and I say rather than just the party, the movement, let's call it that, have been patronising in the past about these matters.

12:42Zack Polanski:Yeah, I think that's true as well. And I think, you know, I want to balance this with there are stalwarts of that movement who have been talking about this for decades. It's not like I've just arrived and I'm the first person who has linked environmental, social, racial and economic justice. There have been people doing that for a long time. But for a long time, there were slogans and phrases that look to minimize the devastating effects of poverty and the devastating effect of needing a job or needing employment with being insignificant matters in light of the climate crisis. Or judging people, perhaps, flying.

13:15Zack Polanski:You think there's been too much of that sort of stuff as well? And so something I talk about a lot is the fact that, look, I don't fly. I'm vegan. I don't drive a car. So if you wanted to give me a kind of purity test on being green leader, I'm going to pass that test. But I'm partly passing that test because I've got a microphone in front of me. And if you were someone who was less conscientious in your approach to journalism, you might turn this whole conversation to a hit piece about my personal choices. That's all nonsense, though. If you can make those personal choices and you have the power and the privilege to do it, I'd always encourage people to make the right personal choices.

13:47Zack Polanski:That's missing the point, though. It's a bit how carbon footprint was created by the oil and gas companies to distract from the system change that was needed. If we're all pointing at each other and talking about individual responsibility, we're missing the real picture. And the real picture is that the four wealthiest people in this country own more wealth than 20 million people combined. and what that is is that is polluters who are destroying our environment but they're also destroying our democracy and they're destroying our communities so you're going to go into the

14:15Lewis Goodall:next general election and climate's not going to be at the top of your priorities it's not going to be the thing that you're talking about first and foremost and principally when you're in those

14:24Zack Polanski:debates and when you're talking in interviews like this so it depends on context where i'm elected in the london assembly i regularly challenge sadiq khan on climate issues and on environmental issues because when I'm in the chamber that's not a comms piece to the wider public that's doing the work that's saying there are emissions that need to be reduced there's climate adaptation that needs to happen you're the mayor of London with your hands on the levers of power I'm going to hold you to account to make sure this work is done now whenever I push out that work there's a small group of people who are already really interested in this stuff who share it and they're pleased they're doing that work but that's not the point to please people the point is to get the work done

14:59Lewis Goodall:but you want people listening to this and people when they think about zapolanski and if you know and you know you know this in the attention economy that we're living most people don't have time to think very much about politics and one of the whole premises of what you're doing is you want to grab people you're grabbing people's attention all the videos you're doing and so on you're succeeding but as you know most people have fragmentary appreciation of politics when they think of you what do you want them to think of inequality climate what's the one word the fact

15:24Zack Polanski:that i'm going to protect people in poverty or empower people in poverty so it's about economics Yeah, I think it is about economics. And so I've launched my own podcast, Bold Politics, which went to number three in the charts. But actually, it's noticeable to people that I've had five or six guests now and we haven't yet done an environmental climate episode. That's not because I don't care about the environmental climate. I care deeply about it. I wanted to make sure that I set my stall out on other issues. Now, that doesn't mean in those debates I won't be going hard at Keir Starmer or whoever the prime minister is by that point around their complete.

15:53Zack Polanski:I mean let's talk about climate the fact that we have a government who say they care about climate but they're expanding airports they're looking at reopening or opening the Rosebank oil field is such an outrageous attack on the futures of our children and grandchildren that I would go so far as to say it's sociopathic behavior so in terms of like although to go back use that I mean if

16:13Lewis Goodall:you're thinking about you know you want to make your focus about economics and about cost of living and about putting money into people's pockets you know one of the arguments to open rose back which is that look at the economy of the northeast of scotland there are hundreds there are thousands and thousands of families there who rely on north sea oil and gas and that transition to take longer so this is the problem right there are trade-offs and some people given your focus on the cost of living and so on will choose to prioritize those families well we're relying

16:38Zack Polanski:on those jobs because david cameron said famously let's cut the green crap let's make sure instead that it's not green crap but actually it's green investment there are hundreds of thousands of

16:46Lewis Goodall:jobs as well but in terms of making that i mean this is where i think there is potentially attention to your politics right which is that on the one hand you want to focus on putting money in people's pockets cost of living and inequality on the other hand as you know the green transition is important it's vital it's also going to be enormously enormously costly and there is no projection and no sensible projection that i've ever seen which shows or demonstrates that you're not going to in the short term going to have to levy extra costs on people's bills in order to fund that transition so where's your priority i i disagree on two counts so first of all howard

17:18Zack Polanski:Stern did a famous report that talked about the cost of inaction. So actually, I think there is lots of data and lots of evidence.

17:23Lewis Goodall:But that's long-term cost for people. And in the short term, you're going to end up asking, as this government is doing, to basically have extra money on their energy bills to fund that transition. But you're all about focusing on the cost of living and making sure that people aren't getting poorer. So where is it?

17:36Zack Polanski:Where's the priority? Well, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. I'm focusing on the cost of living in order to tackle the climate crisis.

17:40Lewis Goodall:Yeah, but in the short term, it affects people.

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17:42Zack Polanski:Even in the short term, the climate crisis is affecting the cost of living. If you have a flood and you live in a basement flat. So you're going to say to someone on benefits,

17:49Lewis Goodall:like you've got to pay an extra£100 a year in energy bills

17:51Zack Polanski:to fund that green transition. But we don't need to say that to people on benefits if we have a fair taxation system. And so these are all choices, political choices that are being made by this government. We can make different political choices that do not pit jobs against the climate crisis. I think it speaks to how damaging and eroding the frame has been of neoliberalism for the last 30, 40 years since Thatcher that we're even having this conversation where we're putting the binary of protecting our environment and protecting people's livelihoods. There are trade-offs. I think they're not trade-offs.

18:19Zack Polanski:I think actually they're advantages. And I think they've been accepted as trade-offs because people have accepted the frame that tackling the climate crisis has to result in the loss of jobs. If you get the just transition properly, you can invest in jobs.

18:30Lewis Goodall:Not necessarily, but it probably does involve people, everybody, making an extra contribution financially to fund it in the short term to get the benefit you're talking about in the long term. And I suppose, Zach, if you want more to make a critique of you, is that, I mean, you describe yourself as an eco-populist. And one thing that you might have in common with Nigel Farage, something I know that you'll balk at, or any populist, is basically you don't engage in the politics of trade-offs. You say it's all going to be fine. We just need to just approach politics in a completely different way and everything will be fine.

19:01Lewis Goodall:And we don't have to make those tough decisions. But sometimes in politics, if you were to get into government, there are those trade-offs which do exist. And you can say, well, we're going to reframe the tax system and rewire the tax system and so on. Maybe that will generate the extra revenue that you think. maybe it won't and if it doesn't then you're back in what the Labour government position is at the moment which is the hard yards of actually governing.

19:19Zack Polanski:I think the trade-off so that I have to sit through interviews and make what people see as difficult arguments but I see as very clear coherent arguments where I'm backed by science and I'm backed by history by the way too. So let's look at the Attlee government as a response to the second world war the NHS was set up huge house building program huge kind of reinvigorating our economy that was a response to a crisis we're in so many crises right now, I probably can't list them all. We have an inequality crisis, we have a climate crisis, we have a nature crisis. We live in one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world.

19:48Zack Polanski:And so there's this moment in history that we're in right now where we can invest in dealing with all of these crises, not in a way that disadvantages the country, but quite the opposite. Will there be a trade-off for multi-millionaires and billionaires? Yes, absolutely. But the only trade-off there is people being able to see that when we hear these constant arguments about won't they just leave or won't they not invest anymore that these are nonsense arguments with no actual backing in the material conditions of what actually changes and so i think the trade off is having to kind of push through the bullshit and the noise and just keep making sure we're telling the stories that are based in real life fact and win people over you would describe yourself as a populist so i think we need to define populism you describe nigel farage as a populist which is fair enough lots of people do i think including himself he's not a populist he's not a patriot either so let's start with patriots patriots love their country they want to invest in the country they want to make sure that the local services are run in the local community area they're not selling this country off to foreign investors they've not got people within their MEP team who are found guilty on corruption and bribery charges with Russia and then keep changing that story that's not patriotism and it's not populism either populism is the 99 % versus the 1 % Nigel Farage says he's a man of the people but he's a man of wealthy people.

21:03Zack Polanski:He literally wants to represent those 1%. So he can call himself a populist all he likes. He's bastardising the word. The reason why I'm taking populists back is because what I want to see is working class communities alongside small business owners, people who don't work, disabled people, migrants, trans people, all the kind of culture war nonsense and say let's cut through that nonsense and recognise we have so much more in common. And the real problem here is a small elite group of people who largely own the media, who largely are donating to political parties who are trying to distract and divide us i mean it's it's interesting i mean i suppose a

21:35Lewis Goodall:different view of populism is that populism fundamentally is about saying that there are a group of elites who are out to screw you and we need to attack those elites and attack the institutions that are often dominated by those elites i suppose in a sense that's populism well i think it is a thought i mean look we can as you say we can argue all day about what populism is but that's certainly one definition of populism and you could say that that is something that does unite you with farage it's just that you're attacking a different sort of elite you're saying the elites that he cares about are basically cultural elites, right?

22:05Lewis Goodall:He claims that what has happened to Britain is it's become dominated by people like he would say, you and me, sort of liberal, cultural liberals, whatever. And they are in some way culturally alienating and do not represent the ordinary people of Britain. That's his critique. What you're saying is that there is an elite problem in Britain, but it's an economic elite problem. And Farage embodies that elite. So you are populist. You're just concerned about a different form of elites.

22:30Zack Polanski:Well, I'd say he's not a populist because, again, it's that... You think he's a fake populist? Well, if he's saying we're the 1%, then sure, he's a populist. But I think that's clearly absurd. We are not the 1%, right?

22:40Lewis Goodall:Well, his argument is that basically cultural liberals over many decades have pursued their own political priorities, including mass immigration and so on, and therefore have basically not represented the ordinary, authentic people of Britain and not represented them in what they want.

22:56Zack Polanski:Well, there's some intersecting conversations here, aren't there? because I think, you know, as with Farage, there's always some truth to what he says and I think that's why he's often enormously popular. He's recognising what's going on in the country. Is there anything you admire about him? Yeah, well, I wouldn't say admire, but I think something we can all learn from, you know, those of us on the left or progressive people, is the way he connects with people's everyday experiences and their fears. The difference is, though, his solutions will often cause more division and actually make things worse.

23:24Zack Polanski:And they're often a house built on... I was mixing metaphors there. A house of cards built on lies. Ultimately, it all collapses. And I think that's why Farage and Reform are going after me so hard right now, because I'm someone that will look them in the eye and I will challenge them on their lies. And I will bring statistics and evidence to the argument, to every single argument. And I think they're really nervous about that because for a long time, they've just got away with kind of, I was on TV with Carol Malone yesterday and it really struck me, not that she's in Reform, this is the Daily Express journalist.

23:55Zack Polanski:when met with information in a calm way she literally and this is anyone can go find the clip she's just literally screaming at me her strategy is to not let me talk because she

24:05Lewis Goodall:realizes you have received extraordinary opprobrium from them in the in the last sort of since you became leader and particularly anybody who's seen the sort of digital content that has been sort of pouring out it is very very interesting why why do you think that is because on one level you know you could say look very often when these sorts of groups see they could they could see you as a a fellow traveller in one sense. They could say, look, this is a guy, we don't agree with this guy's prescription, but in a sense, he kind of shares our diagnosis, which is that there's a sort of, yes, elite problem, the whole country is kind of not being represented properly by the old duopoly, the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and whatever.

24:39Lewis Goodall:So they could almost see you as a kind of fellow traveller against the establishment, but they don't. They really don't. They have been going for you hard. What do you think the reason for that is?

24:47Zack Polanski:Yeah, I think they're partly confused. It was interesting on Question Time, Zia Yusuf used the phrase you might be surging in the polls, Zach. And I thought people don't use phrases like that by accident. That's been playing on his mind that the Greens are surging in the polls. That's something they've been talking about in their meetings. It's also interesting, the spectator just yesterday alone, I think, released three hit pieces on me in one day, three pieces in one day. And then you've got a Labour government that don't seem to know what to do with me. Both the prime minister and I think it was Sadiq Khan accused me of doing student politics or sixth form politics.

25:16Zack Polanski:Sadiq Khan, at the same time, though, when I was elected, he had a much more sensible approach. on the first day we were in public together, he said that he doesn't think he's seen someone enjoy a campaign so much. And I think he recognises that the positivity and hope I'm bringing is exactly how we should be campaigning right now. It's part of the way to challenge the far right, is not what Labour are doing, which is to appease them or even to occupy the same space sometimes, but actually to go, what does a tangible alternative look like that's built on hope and positivity, but isn't kind of abstract and in the air, but actually has policies and an actual plan to say, this is how we're going to take on the far right in this country and so i think whether it's reform or labor i think they don't quite know what to do with me and it's that thing of we saw some of this with leaders in the past too where on one day i'm being painted as a clown that's incompetent and they don't know what to do with me and on other days i'm a very dangerous machiavellian man

26:07Lewis Goodall:um because you are a relative ingenue to the sort of national politics in this way as you say it's only been 35 days you generated a huge amount of attention which is to your political credit you've probably generated more attention than I would say every leader of the Green Party up to you combined probably in 35 days or so but it does come with a cost and it does come with all of this attention which has not been quite so positive a lot of hit pieces you say how are you

26:31Zack Polanski:dealing with them every time it happens it propels me on genuinely I just think the worst thing would have been to be ignored and actually the second worst thing would have been they fear you I think they do and I think they're right to fear us we're about to overtake the Tories and membership so were at 110 ,000. The Tories are supposedly at 123 ,000, although Adam Ramsey, the Guardian journalist, has been doing some interesting work that looks at the amount of money the Tories have from membership, and it doesn't equal 123 ,000. So I think there's real questions for the Tories about what is your membership numbers.

27:01Zack Polanski:But as soon as we've overtaken the Tories, we're coming for Labour next. And I think Labour know we're coming for them, particularly next May at the local elections. It's really interesting, before we even get there, I can be winning as Green party leader and the left can be winning because Keir Starmer must be looking at those May elections and going electorally this is going to be an absolute massacre the Green Party are absolutely coming for us on the left so at this budget they need to make sure there's some concessions to the left and as soon as those concessions start to come we're already winning without winning the seats now of course I want to win the seats that's the point but actually the point of winning the seats in the first place was to get change in this country.

27:37Lewis Goodall:Do you see yourself as a sort of reform party for the left in the sense that something that farage has done not just with reform with the brexit party hitherto ukip is he has sort of acted as a magnet for the conservative party over 10 15 years he has gradually through his electoral success periodically intermittently he's gradually morphed the conservative party pretty much into his own image and yet despite that has now at the point potentially of overcoming it perhaps even destroying it certainly for permanently weakening it do you see your project as a version of that for the Labour Party no because I think what's

28:12Zack Polanski:going to undo Nigel Farage's project and explain how the Greens are different is the doge whole thing or dodgy thing uh is very revealing so in Kent uh they sent Zia Yusuf and the whole doge unit to go make cuts at the council level yes it didn't work and then in the end they've had to go with a begging ball to national government and say this isn't working there wasn't actually these unnecessary diversity projects or whatever they thought was there to cut and so again their project is built on lies so when it gets put under the spotlight there's nowhere to go the greens are very different to that do we have a fully formed project for government i won't be disingenuous no we don't you know if i was suddenly to be in government tomorrow i think that would be a rocky road you'd be going into the election hoping to be prime minister or saying you think you could be prime i'm definitely not joe swinson in this and also i think without the experience of government i think that would be unwise what i am saying though is i believe we have the credibility at the local level, certainly, where we're running administrations and getting better and better.

29:05Lewis Goodall:Would you like to be in government in some form?

29:06Zack Polanski:Yeah, I absolutely want to be in some form of coalition government.

29:08Lewis Goodall:For sure. Could you imagine supporting Keir Starmer as prime minister?

29:12Zack Polanski:Absolutely not. Are there any circumstances? Not while the ongoing genocide is happening. Not while, because I think the history of how Keir Starmer has been as prime minister, I think he has broken trust so much with both the left, but more importantly, the wider country. Is there anything you admire about him? Keir Starmer. so weirdly i know kia starmer fairly well um because we had lots of debates together in 2015 when i was a lib dem so no one in the lib dems could find anyone who wanted to go debate so my first debate ever in political history was against kia starmer and natalie bennett really and actually this was the start of me becoming one of your predecessors yeah who's former leader so i went home to my boyfriend during that debate and said to him the greens are quite right about everything like i'd never really considered themselves as a party and then And me and Keir Starmer had several debates together where Natalie Bennett and Sean Berry, the other former leader of the party, rotated.

30:03Zack Polanski:And it was then when I got really talking to Sean, talking about green values, I was like, actually, I'd be much more at home in the Green Party. So Keir Starmer is sort of responsible for you becoming a Green. And what was interesting in that very first debate I've ever had as a politician, so I had no experience, it's 2015, and I'm basically there because I want to talk about proportional representation. That's always been something that's really important to me. And at the time, I didn't know the Greens cared about it because the Greens weren't really talking about it. Now, I'm not criticising the Greens for that.

30:30Zack Polanski:They had 10 seconds of airtime. So are you going to talk about the climate crisis or are you going to talk about proportional representation? And in that debate, it was a group of students. And Keir Starmer, as far as I remember, largely got booed even then. He wasn't even yet an MP for the way he was talking. And the way I was talking as someone with no political experience whatsoever, but able to connect with the students, because it wasn't that long since I was a student, being able to go, I can feel why people are angry with the Tories and also why so i think kirsten was asked about like cannabis legalization and he just gave the most kind of boring dull answer so you weren't impressed with him totally unimpressed totally unimpressed and then he was in a mess on hs2 uh because uh he was standing in holborn andst pancras of course where he's an mp4 and just didn't have a good argument for that either so i already saw the seeds then what i did think about him though was that he was honest and that he had integrity you still think he's honest no i think we have seen i mean he's just not honest we see that again i come back to gaza with a whole host of issues where he's gone out and defended the indefensible and i think once you've reached that point there's no way you can go into coalition with someone like that right we will be back with more from zach polanski right after this

31:46Lewis Goodall:news you can trust and the conversations that matter with award-winning journalist at the The heart of the stories from the UK and around the world. Breaking news here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American week is next. Reporting from the heart of Cardiff.

32:00Zack Polanski:Discover how today's story affects your life. Listen on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

32:14Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. Let's just rewind a little bit and just talk about, which I haven't really heard you talk about very much which is your early sort of political life and your early life really because you were born in Manchester you have spoken about that a little bit recently obviously in the wake of the appalling anti-Semitic attacks what propelled you into politics? was it a very political life always?

32:34Zack Polanski:totally unpolitical in fact I could be shameful to admit this but I've decided to own it if you'd said to me in kind of just 10-20 years ago who's the leader of the opposition I wouldn't have known it was no interest to me

32:46Lewis Goodall:as recently as how long would you say?

32:47Zack Polanski:I would say so I moved to America in 2005 to go train and I think that's what started to politicize me but before that kind of no interest whatsoever I remember voting kind of at 18 but having no real interest in who I was voting for what in America politicized you and I think that was the first time I was living in Atlanta Georgia and um just kind of spending time particularly in the gay black community actually obviously there's a huge black population in atlanta and there's a huge gay population and that intersection is there and just seeing the deep kind of racism and segregation in that city the immense poverty that sits alongside wealth i'd never up until 2005 visited london or maybe i'd visited once or twice um i'd grown up in a very kind of um jewish community very close to the orthodox jewish community so i lived a pretty sheltered life in terms of other cultures other communities and then even going to university in

33:46Lewis Goodall:2001 have you been a victim of much anti-semitism yourself uh interestingly not until the last two

33:51Zack Polanski:years and since i've started speaking out on palestine that's when i've experienced kind of constant anti-semitism in what way uh largely on social media but very often from people calling me a capo which of course is the the people who sold out jewish people to the nazis um that must be difficult i mean that is really difficult and of all the you always have to be careful to say what insults get to you because it can propel people but actually the vile antisemitism my experience of all the things is stuff that gets to me uh people comment you know never ending on things like my teeth bloody love my teeth so you know that one just never gets to me i think like having a unique smile is something i enjoy about myself and i enjoy in other people but the anti-semitism uh more than the homophobia interestingly it does cut through and i think it's um i think it's because it's tied to the very deep emotive feelings around speaking out for palestinians and the annoyance frankly uh people who don't see the humanity uh in other

34:52Lewis Goodall:people i almost hesitate to ask this because it's a complicated one and so don't take it the wrong way but i'm just interested because there's no reason you should and plenty of british jews don't but i just wonder whether you yourself despite the fact you have been so strident speaking about gaza and palestine many british jews who abhor what's been done in gaza nonetheless do feel an emotional connection to israel obviously the political project of israel which was in many ways such a noble one in 1940 is that something that in any way appeals to you or that you struggle with to talk about yourself or to reconcile these things it's been really shattered

35:26Zack Polanski:I grew up with a very, very strong emotional connection to Israel. And now it feels completely overshadowed, completely overshadowed by the need for justice and solidarity. I just think, how can you have an emotive relationship with something that's gone so badly wrong? But you do think that Israel should continue to exist? Well, I think that's a complicated question in terms of what is a nation state? Like no nation state has a right to exist. So you don't think Israel has a right to exist? Well, that's seeking a headline in something that's much more nuanced. No, I'm not. I'm genuinely not. I'm not.

35:58Zack Polanski:I think it's actually a reasonably straightforward. Well, let's go back in history and say, why did Israel have the right to exist as it does? It was clearly because of the persecution of the Jewish people, something that's deep in my ancestry. I spoke in my conference speech about the fact that I reclaim the name Polanski, another thing that people try and attack me for endlessly. And it's just moronic because I've been. Well, just to be clear, people won't know this. That wasn't the name you were born with. Yeah, so I was born with the surname Polden, but at 16, 17, 18 years old, I was hearing stories as I was learning about the Holocaust, about how my family history was largely in Latvia.

36:30Zack Polanski:They lived in an almost entirely Jewish community. There was pogroms, so they fled to Ukraine. Having been in Ukraine, there was then more pogroms, so they fled to Poland. Then, of course, they met the Nazis and so fled to the UK. And the story I was told growing up was that we had changed our surname to evade the Nazis. I then found out 1718 as I was researching family history that we were still Polanski when we arrived in the UK. In fact, it turned out it was Polanski. But this is a very common Jewish experience that because of written documents and running, there's often different names. And it was changed to Pauldon to evade anti-Semitism in the UK.

37:04Zack Polanski:And despite, as we've just talked about, not being party political, I've always had like a strong sense of injustice and challenging injustice. and it just seemed really really important to me that pride is no longer being ashamed of who you are or scared of who you are i don't think it's coincidence either that this coincided with the times i was talking about being gay too so the sense of being totally open and unapologetic about who you are is all at the same time and then to kind of wrap this section up i guess the first job that i was doing as a theater actor was community theater so it's a project called theater of the oppressed this started in the 70s in south america under a man called augusto bowal which is all about going to minority or oppressed communities and role-playing he calls it rehearsing the revolution so finding out how what people can do about their oppression the actor the trained actor would play the oppressor the policeman the landlord the politician whoever it might be and then the audience challenged them and you keep replaying it until the audience feel empowered with the right arguments to challenge them and i just got to the point where i love that work and i still respect all my colleagues who do that it's an amazing thing to be doing but i felt like we weren't dealing with the systemic barriers and actually you can empower someone to be the most articulate person in the world but if the barriers are still in place they can't get that and that's when I got into formal party politics

38:18Lewis Goodall:I understand why you're wary of it but I'm just interested as part of this sort of richer conversation in terms of that question do you believe in a two state solution to the Israel-Gaza conflict? because if you do presumably then you must believe that Israel has a right to exist

38:33Zack Polanski:it's not that I'm wary of it but my personal opinion is that a two state solution is like a solution that has no tangible way of happening right with everything that's happened i don't think we're in this mess in the first place largely because of the balfour declaration and because of the british response to palestine and to israel and the idea that we need british politicians to wade in right now with what they think the solution is is is repeating history you would say i think the brain has a right to exist so so what i want to see is civic groups in Palestine and civic groups in Israel getting together.

39:06Zack Polanski:We've got what seems like a loose ceasefire. That's part one. We now need a peace process. But the idea that Tony Blair is going to be the person that leads that peace process is like putting an arsonist in charge of a fire. But I don't think it should be any British politician who's in charge of that peace process.

39:20Lewis Goodall:But you're not willing to say that Israel has the right to exist?

39:22Zack Polanski:It's not that I don't think you just talked about Ukraine. I don't think it's that any nation state vis-a-vis has a right to exist. Really? Yeah, because I just think it's about who are the people and the changing history. I think it's about that people have a right to exist and everyone has the right to common humanity, equality. But self-determination.

39:40Lewis Goodall:And self-determination. Self-determination which is expressed through the nation state. I'm just surprised that you wouldn't say that any particular state at any given moment has the

39:47Zack Polanski:right to exist. Well this is why it's a nuanced conversation. So self-determination has an absolute right to exist. So a group of people have a right to self-determine. And the Israelis want to express that self-determination through their states. And so do the Palestinians. Indeed so. That's where the conflict comes, right? Of course. So I think rather than going either one of those countries has the right to have their nation as an exist, what they have the right to do is the self-determination for us to create a space where they can get together. And I'm talking about the civic groups rather than the warmongers and the leaders and actually getting those civic groups together.

40:15Zack Polanski:Is that enormously complicated? Do I know how to do that? No, I don't. But I do know that if the world put their heads together and go, actually, the only way we can come to a genuine peace agreement is for politicians from other countries not to wade in with their ideas and their solutions. but go let's facilitate a space where that conversation

40:30Lewis Goodall:and something is interesting that you I noticed when you were talking about Farage is invoking this question of patriotism saying he's

40:36Zack Polanski:not a true patriot would you say you're patriotic yeah absolutely you say you love Britain yeah I think if you'd asked me a few years ago I would have been more squeamish about the answer

40:44Lewis Goodall:to that because people on the left often are in a way that I find you know I think it's I think it's problematic it's one of the reasons the left often struggles to connect with people particularly culturally is that kind of like you know you sometimes have those really tedious conversations people like I love all countries or stuff

40:56Zack Polanski:like that it's it strikes people as being odd right and i guess it links with a conversation we're just having about nation states but someone asked me recently um if i support welsh independence and scottish independence yes um and the the boring answer i'll give you a more interesting answer the boring answer as leader of the green party is it's not my job to decide that it's for the wales green party the scottish green party they both support independence and so i support what they decide but if you're asking me on a personal level i absolutely support their independence so then the next question is do i support english independence and it really made me stop because i thought well i've never thought about it in those terms yeah and i've thought the right will absolutely have thought about in those terms in terms of english nationalism so i think there's a huge huge role to do right now to go what does an english state look like and how do we make sure we both recognize the history of england both in terms of our problematic nature around colonialism and empire but also the beautiful things of when this country has come

41:47Lewis Goodall:together to fight fashion to be clear you do you would you know you're a party leader of a party It's a slightly complicated structure because you say it's different for different parts of the UK. But you do think it would be a good idea if the UK broke up?

41:59Zack Polanski:I don't know if a good idea is a separate question to the one I'm answering. And I can come on to the good idea one. But the question is, is should people in those countries who have been screwed over by Westminster government for decades and not been given their fair share? And there seems no obvious route to that getting better. They're saying we want to go independent. And as someone who believes in the principle of subsidiarity, which just means power being and self-determination. But would you support it? Yes, on a personal level. So you do think it would be a good idea if the UK broke up?

42:26Zack Polanski:Well, yes. Sometimes you have to go to the first question to get to the second question. I think it would be a good idea. Why? Because it's not working. I thought we were stronger together. Well, I think... The principle of your politics, collectivism, solidarity. Where it gets more complicated is if we had a Green government who genuinely cared about Wales and Scotland and genuinely looked at a way of the Barnett formula, for instance. So this is around HS2, the way Wales gets their money. This is one of... The final formula is quite generous to Scotland and Wales in lots of ways. Definitely not to Wales.

42:57Zack Polanski:I think it's one of the most egregious examples of a country being screwed over and everyone in England just shrugging their shoulders and going, you know, you don't have any power. That's clearly unfair. Now, if we had a Green government, I would like to think we would absolutely look at a way of making sure that Wales and Scotland had a fair settlement.

43:13Lewis Goodall:In which case, what if London said we want to be independent?

43:15Zack Polanski:Well, and again, I think this is an example of where you can recognise...

43:18Lewis Goodall:And then London would keep all its tax revenues and Wales wouldn't get all of the massive transfers which take place in Scotland. So then isn't that why solidarity is important as a whole nation?

43:25Zack Polanski:So I think you can both have solidarity and independence. So to talk about London, for instance, I frequently say, I don't think we should be asking for more money for London. And I say that as a London Assembly member. I do think, though, the fact that the mayor doesn't have his own tax-raising powers is absolutely absurd. We have so much wealth in London and so much poverty. And actually, if the mayor was allowed to do, say, a tourist tax or a wealth tax on the city of London, that would be a way of bringing lots of money to London. And also I think other regions should have their fair settlements as well.

43:53Zack Polanski:We live in one of the most centralised democracies in the West in terms of so much power sits with the Prime Minister. It's not a surprise to me that Wales and Scotland are grumpy about that.

44:01Lewis Goodall:Would it be a very good idea in this period where we're facing massive geopolitical threats for the UK, which for all of its faults, you know, is still a big military spender, is still a linchpin, a staple of European defence for us all to go our separate ways?

44:15Zack Polanski:Well, this is an example of where Brexit has been one of the most catastrophic decisions I think this country has ever made. And Nigel Farage, who is at the centre of that decision, still has the audacity to be there front and centre stage.

44:23Lewis Goodall:So we should all be part of the EU. And that separatism was a bad idea. And that reclaiming of sovereignty was a bad idea. But Wales and Scotland going their separate ways, that's a good idea.

44:34Zack Polanski:So this is where I think, actually, I can hear the scepticism in your voice. But I think what I'm saying is utterly morally consistent and coherent. Because actually what I'm saying is the power should be at the most local level. And also it's really important to have umbrella organisations where you work together with more formal arrangements. Well, so NATO is a really good example where this has been disastrous for a long time because of American imperialism. I think Donald Trump has been kind of a final nail in the coffin where we have someone who, because of a so-called special relationship, we are outsourcing our security to.

45:02Zack Polanski:So the question is, is the umbrella you're working in working? So in which case we need to apply the fence. Well, let me finish the sentence. Under the umbrella, that absolutely isn't working. We need a different umbrella. So it's not about leaving NATO today. It's about saying, let's work with our European partners. By the way, European partners are now saying this. they weren't last time we're having that conversation sure european countries are now saying we might need a european security council that works across europe that actually says we are stronger together working in solidarity let's not be so right and that would mean that would

45:31Lewis Goodall:mean that would have to up our defense spending not necessarily at all well so we're going to take away american defense spending which is because you yourself say we have been reliant on their defense spending to protect us but then we're going to separate but not up our own defense

45:43Zack Polanski:spending? Well, I think the question is, are we getting the right mechanisms for what we're spending money on right now? So we have homeless veterans sleeping on our streets, but we have the Prime Minister who is spending £15 billion on nuclear weapons. That seems absolutely ridiculous.

45:57Lewis Goodall:Would you be happy to lose... So if we lost our nuclear deterrent, and the French lost our nuclear deterrent, and then we wouldn't have the American nuclear deterrent to rely on, you don't think that the Russians might choose to try and exploit that? That might put us in a rather frail position? I feel like we've had this conversation so many times. No, I think we've had it once. And I'm trying to do it in a slightly more sophisticated way,

46:16Zack Polanski:but I still have never heard a good answer from you. I want a world without nuclear weapons. Now, I know you'll immediately go, everyone wants a world without nuclear weapons. That's like motherhood and apple pie. I think the first principle is to say, what do you want? And to not accept that that's impossible. Would you be comfortable? So you don't think the Russians would travel? In the same way that Nelson Mandela managed to secure peace with the ANC and we got peace in Ireland.

46:34Lewis Goodall:Why do you think the Estonians and the Latvians and the Lithuanians and the Finns and the Ukrainians would all completely disagree with you?

46:39Zack Polanski:Because I think they're terrified about the fact that Russia has nuclear weapons. and I get that. So the first place to start is how do we get Russia to denuclearize? They won't. Well, on the day we had this conversation on LBC where it was much more fractious than it is now, the next day, Putin had a conversation with Trump about nuclear weapons. Now, has it resulted... You believe Vladimir Putin? Well, no, I don't believe him for a second, but even the fact that that... You were making it like this was the most absurd conversation in the world and literally the next day... It is absurd. That conversation was in the press.

47:07Zack Polanski:I think it is only possible if we show global leadership and I think the first place to show global leadership is to say that the idea that having nuclear weapons makes us safer in a world of global turmoil is absolutely insane.

47:21Lewis Goodall:Do you believe that it would make any difference to Vladimir Putin? I don't think... Apart from the fact he might bully us a bit more.

47:25Zack Polanski:I think the way to do it is to have that conversation to say what does it look like if the world denuclearises? How can we make that happen? Is that something that you even want? We've never had that conversation.

47:36Lewis Goodall:So if we get rid of nuclear weapons, would you be happy to up our defence spending on other areas?

47:39Zack Polanski:on the army the navy well i think it's in response to what specific threat the argument always is is russia is coming to invaders yeah russia are struggling with their nearest neighbors ukraine now i don't mean to undermine the horrific massacre that is going on there but i think the idea that vladimir putin is coming to invade the uk is quite jingoistic and i think he might be coming to invade our allies the fins the baltic states the poles so we should just let them get on with it we shouldn't let them go on with it but also the truth is they're not being invaded right now and i think that was true of ukraine right 2022 but these narratives are often pushed by the arms trade companies because ultimately this is a huge racket to make more money across arms

48:17Lewis Goodall:the arms trade companies that made russia invade ukraine right which is also true and by the way

48:22Zack Polanski:just to be very clear i stand with the ukrainians in the same way that i stand with the palestinians if ultimately people are being invaded and they're innocent you blame russia for that war yeah absolutely um i think all of this is important to recognize that we need to protect ourselves we need to have security but you're not asking me these questions about what are we doing to make sure we're secure from changing temperatures and changing climate what are we doing to make sure that older people aren't dying in care homes or that you know flooding is happening it's not either or absolutely but we are not spending that money if we end up in a european war all of that stuff just goes out the window well okay let me put this back to you what is certain right now is that in the next coming years we're going to face wildfires we're going to face floods you don't have to believe me just look at the insurance companies they don't mess around with money and they are increasingly concerned about the effects of changing temperatures we don't know

49:10Lewis Goodall:that there is going to be a european war of course you could have said that 1938 you could have said that 1936 that's the argument right we need to deter we need to make sure that putin thinks that if he invades a nato country that that is going to be so costly to him that he doesn't well all

49:24Zack Polanski:of this is about risk assessment right and i would say the chances of another pandemic are higher on that risk assessment that doesn't mean we shouldn't defend ourselves it doesn't mean we shouldn't be more secure absolutely let's make sure we're more secure but i think the biggest thing around defense spending is this idea that it's a function of your gdp it literally makes no sense do you think if the economy is doing better you assume that you're going to be more

49:44Lewis Goodall:likely to think this defense stuff is because i mean look we've had this conversation um and you know we're trying we're doing it now in a more sophisticated way which i'm glad about but obviously that won't happen in the run-up to election and so on there's going to be all this stuff about defence and nukes and whatever do you think it's a weakness i'm not sure it is the most

49:58Zack Polanski:sophisticated way i think we still need to have a more nuanced conversation no i just think i just think what you're saying doesn't make much sense but that's okay we we can agree i don't mean that i think you're an excellent journalist but i also think like the nature of these quick conversations means we don't all take a breath and go actually what does a more holistic conversation about defence looks like look i'll answer your question directly i do think it's a weakness because when you look at polling the issue that we're trusted on the least at the moment is on defence and i think it's often because these conversations happen we don't have space to breathe and actually i think when people i know when i go to community centers and i'm not being barracked is unfair to what you're doing right now but kind of the every question is not allowing me to finish my thought it means you don't have time to create that wider narrative about what does a green party response to defense look like the challenge to me and it's one i'm absolutely want to take up in the long term is i just did that video around cost of living and the wealth tax very effective i've done a video about the climate crisis at some point i do want to start creating narratives about what does real security look like against pandemics for climate crisis and indeed imperialism i uh

50:59Lewis Goodall:just wanted to ask you before we wrap up of course about this question of another potential new entrant on your part of politics on the kind of populist left type of politics which is of course the spectre i mean it's been much vaunted much talked about not clear when it's happening or of your party this is the jeremy corbyn zara sultana um outfit which is supposed to have got

51:21Zack Polanski:going um is there any point to them now do you think that's not for me to wade into as tempting as it is what i'm genuinely and i think people can see this is i'm so relentlessly focused on growing the green party and relentlessly focused on in the coming weeks overtaking the tories and being the real opposition uh to both this failing labor government and taking the fight to reform and i'm really determined on the actual issues like funding the national health service on education a lot of the issues that this alternative movement would presumably be talking about too just making sure that people know that we have the policies on those issues we're the party that has the momentum the energy the structure um and this may these elections voting green is an absolute way to demonstrate to this labor government that you're unhappy with them and you want an alternative

52:05Lewis Goodall:because arisald santa was asked about what is the point given that you are you know in this space and you're clearly doing very well and you're getting all this attention you're getting all these new members, many of whom I suspect were members of the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, and sort of see a kind of synergy between the two of you. She was asked exactly what the point of her party was in these circumstances. I don't know if you saw the key. We are an explicitly socialist party. We should have a policy, and I hope members pass this,

52:31Zack Polanski:that we should withdraw from NATO because it is an imperialist war machine, whereas the Greens on their website say that NATO has an important role in maintaining security for its member states. if we look at NATO's track record Iraq Libya Afghanistan endless wars have made the world less safe what do you make of that I want to focus on the cost of living crisis I want to focus on inequality and actually I think they're important issues she's raising we've just had a whole conversation for a long time about some of those issues but actually so I was on Jeremy Vine yesterday and he asked me about trans rights and I answered that trans rights are human rights and then he said to me why do you keep talking about this stuff and i said to him i've been on your show three times in the last six months and every single one of those three times you've done a segment on trans rights i i want to show solidarity to these people i'm happy to talk about nato but actually the first things that come out my mouth are always going to be either about the cost of living crisis or the climate crisis and that's what i'm going to relentlessly focus on do you think you've just left them behind your party i think again that's for people to decide what I think is clear is the Green Party is growing at can you say an unprecedented rate I don't have the stats for that but I think well if you don't I don't yeah the speed at which the Green Party is growing right now speaking humbly as the leader of the party recognizing it's not just about me it's the entire movement is incredibly impressive and I think anyone who considers themselves on the left who considers themselves a socialist or indeed just a progressive I mean there are ex-Tories who say they can see under Kemi Badenoch that they have completely abandoned any sense of decency or caring about science or caring about nature and they've joined the Green Party too so I think there's an easy narrative here that we're just getting disillusioned Labour voters but actually that's not showing up.

54:11Lewis Goodall:If they did launch would that be problematic would that be difficult for you?

54:16Zack Polanski:I'm really secure in what the Green Party are doing and the fact that we are becoming a huge major party the fact that Alistair Campbell someone whose politics I don't entirely align with said yesterday where on his podcast he said yesterday that it's Farage versus Polanski or something like that and I think that is the narrative that's increasingly becoming true in this country if you'd said to me six months ago when I was thinking about running for leader of the Green Party do you think major commentators in this country or podcast would be saying it is a fight between Farage and Polanski even in my kind of most visionary where I wanted to get to at this stage, I'd go, no, that's a few years down the line.

54:53Zack Polanski:We are so with the momentum right now and we really have a clear story to tell that I think is bringing a lot of people of hope. So I'm focusing on that.

55:00Lewis Goodall:Would you like to say to Jeremy Corbyn, Zara Sultana, look, just pack this in. You know, just come and join us. We're in this space. We're talking about the things you want to talk about. You don't need to waste your time

55:11Zack Polanski:to come and join us. Would you like that? I've shared more panels with Zara Sultana in the last couple of weeks than I've seen my boyfriend and I said that to her the other day. we were in Manchester together on Saturday and I said to her in the audience I said I've not come here to be partisan we can have a whole conversation about what those relationships between the parties look like or you could recognize that with a party that have immense amounts of members joining us I like Zara come join the Green Party and so I'm not going to beg anyone to join the party anyone can decide where or what they want to be and welcome them yeah absolutely I need to caveat that it's not my decision that's up to the party and I don't think we're in a place where like we need defections from mps i think we've clearly got the energy momentum anyway but at the same time talking to any labor mps i talk to labor mps all the time about defection it would yeah could you imagine if labor mps would continue to talk to me if i came on the news agents and named the mps i'm talking no no i'm not asking you to name them i'm just i'm just asking is there any interest fair enough question i'm talking to labor mps about defections yes you are yes how many i'm gonna yeah i feel like the indiscretion is there and i'm gonna just leave it there um what's where where is this i also want to say though that it's the same answer like i'd love defections but i guess where i've changed since i've become leader of the green party is i was dying for a defection a few months ago i thought a defection is what gets us the attention and the energy to then get lots of members and be the real credible force in british politics i think that's happened anyway so i'd still welcome a defection because i'd rather people are in the labour party who feel like it's not aligning with their values join the green party so they're able to speak up and I think that would be good for the country and also I think that would gain us even more momentum and energy but I think we're in the place where we don't need defections at this point I just think actually it would be really helpful for everyone to have a defection but it's it's no longer my focus which is an interesting shift.

56:57Zack Polanski:Are you looking at people

56:59Lewis Goodall:like I mean when you're looking at politics in different parts of the world talk about the US are you looking at say Mamdani in New York, AOC, the way that they approach politics is that who

57:08Zack Polanski:taking inspiration from yeah definitely i also would you know i i take huge inspiration from mamdani i can also be honest and say that i've spoken to members of his team that this thing is two-way and so i think it's a group of people among the left right now in europe and more widely who are recognizing that for decades now we've not been winning in the way that we should and actually when you poll our policies and the ideas they're increasingly the popular ideas just for various reasons, largely the broken electoral system, we've been stuck in this two-party politics that has left people voting for the worst option or the least worst option.

57:44Zack Polanski:I think undoubtedly that's breaking down now, particularly in this country. We now live in much more than a two-party system. And I think now that that cat is out the back, the space for the Green Party to grow and the electoral success we can have both in May at the local elections and the general election is starting to become limitless. I think the real question then becomes how do you match the resources you have with electoral ambition where you're not capping it with your resources but actually you're being as ambitious as possible while still being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the shortest possible time.

58:17Zack Polanski:What I would say is I'm constantly re-evaluating that because what would have felt hugely ambitious six weeks ago is suddenly making us go are we being ambitious enough. Is that Polanski?

58:29Lewis Goodall:It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Hope you come back. despite the stratospheric heights. Just don't turn up on... Too good for the newsagents. Just don't turn up on that Campbell outfit, that's what I'd say. Zach, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

58:50Lewis Goodall:The News Agents Well, you can see, can't you, why he's already elevated the Green Party media game. We said in that episode I mentioned at the start that we did near the turn of the year that the recipe for Green's success wasn't hard to see. Clarity, economics, confident media performance. But just because that recipe was clear, it doesn't mean that it's easy to achieve. Polanski makes it look easy, but it's not. Vanishingly few politicians today, especially on the left, have been able to perfect that elixir, that alchemy, authenticity, fluency, ease, likeability, and crucially, just having something to say.

59:30Lewis Goodall:Polanski has all of it and is making an impact. How long for? Who can say? It could reach a ceiling quickly. The media onslaught will be relentless. There remain contradictions in his project, weaknesses which he, to his credit, is candid about. But one thing is certain. A wise politician once said that the party which wins the battle of ideas wins elections. And one thing you can say about Polanski, One of the reasons he is resonating so much, so quickly, is that he is contesting that battle unreservedly, unapologetically. It's one of the reasons, I think, the reaction from the right has been so fervent against him.

1:00:16Lewis Goodall:They're used to having that battle to themselves, not least because Keir Starmer has been absent from it by choice, perhaps given the sort of politician he is by necessity. with Polanski fighting and fighting and fighting on his left flank. It might be a luxury the Prime Minister can no longer afford. That is it from all of us on the News Agents. No John or Emily this Friday. They're off to the gastroenterology clinic with Celia Imri, if you know, you know. We'll all be back, though, next week. The News Agents is produced by Rory Simon, Georgia Foxwell, Natalie Inge, Shane Fennelly, Mikey Baggs and Jess Williamson.

1:00:52Lewis Goodall:Our executive producer is Louis Dagenhast. Our editor is Tom Hughes. It's presented by Emily Maitlis, John Sopel and me, Lewis Goodall. Do remember to join me on LBC from 10 till 12 this Sunday for all the best political interviews. We'll be back on Monday. Have a lovely weekend. This has been a Global Player original production.

From the publisher

It's just six weeks since Zack Polanski became leader of the Green party. He's not even an MP. And yet, in that short space of time, he's become something of a political rockstar for those on the left of British politics.

His party is shooting up in the polls, he's attracted a devout and growing following on social media, and his modern style of communication is marking him out against what can at times feel like a rather stale political establishment in Westminster.

In this extended interview, Lewis speaks to Polanski about his political journey and about his radical vision. Why does he support the break up of the United Kingdom? Does he recognise his stance on NATO sets him at odds with the public? And could Labour MPs be about to join him?

Visit our new website for more analysis and interviews from the team: https://www.thenewsagents.co.uk/

The News Agents is brought to you by HSBC UK - https://www.hsbc.co.uk/

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