Can Man City Silence Anfield? United vs Spurs & Chelsea’s Defensive Problems | The Overlap Fan Debate

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2:03I don't like writing off the start of the season. United weren't ready for the start of the season. They're saying, who are we going to sign? And you've got to perpetuate almost this lie. Oh, we're looking at a lot of players. And your nose is getting bigger as you're saying it. Can you ramp people up? Can you talk about it? Can you say the world's watching in and Anfield needs to be alive? Cole Palmer's pulling out of the England squad as a bit of a middle-fingertil manager, I don't know. Think he'll be fit the weekend? Definitely. The camera in the tunnel, that really frustrates me when I do see players shaking hands.

2:34Now, I always remember Gerard Uliye, he would be furious. He'd be like, you're going to war. And they go, you're quite nice, actually, aren't you? And they're so surprised because you're the Tasmanian devil on a Saturday. Are there enough Tasmanian devils in the Manchester United team? Absolutely not.

2:53Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. I'm pleased to welcome back Stuart Pearce on the sofa as well as our loyal fans. So Stuart, I'll come to you first. International break. You ready for the Premier League to be back underway? I am, but I've got to give you a proviso. I prefer international football to club football. Oh, wow. I hear the fans, oh, international football. It's the best thing that ever happened to me, playing international football. with England and the four games. And obviously I managed at under-21 level with the international team. So I always think it's fantastic.

3:32I can understand potentially seven weeks window for the World Cup and then five games and then a break and whatever. But you know what? I love international football. When you were playing, do you think that would have been the consensus of most players at that time? And do you think it's maybe different now? No, I still see, you know, I think there's certain things. People look back of yesteryear in football and think the rose-tinted glasses, everyone was passionate to play for England. I see this group of players probably more passionate to play for their country. I really do. And the managers that have probably had a good result are quite happy to have three weeks off, you know, basking in a good result sort of thing.

4:15And the ones that have just been beaten think, my goodness me, this is a long international break. Listen, I enjoy both, to be quite honest with you. But when the Premier League comes back, I know from a fan's point of view, most fans will think, thank goodness that's back instead of international football. OK, let's crack on and we'll start with Manchester City, the biggest story in town. And Nobben's going to come to you. Your next game is at Liverpool. With everything that's going on at the moment, off the pitch, How do you think that's going to affect you on the pitch? Yes, a little quiet fixture just to get City started.

4:53I would like to think that there will be a similar effect to what we saw in the 22-23 season where the charges first dropped and the response from the players was that it galvanised them and that they did go on to win the treble, obviously. It's a different collection of players. It's a different manager as well, different levels of experience and that sort of thing. but I would like to think that this group of players will allow it to improve their performances and sort of like have a siege mentality as Stuart was alluding to earlier. I mean your record at Anfield is not great even in the greatest teams that you've had under Pep but you came through Old Trafford didn't you?

5:35Ten men obviously up against your biggest rivals is that something that you're almost hanging on to Because you still don't know everything about this team and this manager quite yet, do you? Yeah, 100%. There was loads of uncertainty going into the season. New manager, different players, etc. I've still got some concerns with the setup that Mareska's going for. I think there are some tactical concerns that a couple of teams have exposed. What are they? I think we're a little bit too easy to play through in the midfield. I don't think that Mareska's sorted out his out-of-possession structure yet.

6:08He's leaning more so into the man-marking setup that we saw at Chelsea and Leicester. He's abandoned the zonal structure that we would associate under Guardiola. And the players hasn't quite clicked yet for a lot of those players. And they have been described as off-ball liabilities. Players like Shirky, players like Haaland, for example. I wouldn't call them that, but others have done. And maybe you have too many of those all on the pitch at once, coupled with a relatively frail, in my opinion, midfield, coupled with a different pressing structure. It makes it so that City are a little bit too easy to play through.

6:43Sunderland have exposed that. In fact, I know that City have done well defensively and people pointed to the fact that, well, Porto didn't even have a shot on target against us and that's all well and good. But if our midfield against Porto is getting bypassed from their box two hours within four passes, I don't think it matters if it results in a shot on target or not. That's still a midfield which is too easy to play through. The result you got at Old Trafford is probably one of the best results you've probably had in the Premier League when you think you know down to 10 men so early in the game you end up winning the game would going to Anfield with your record there with everything surrounding this fixture could this be one of the best results that City could get if they could go to Anfield and win considering as I said the implications around the game absolutely yeah even without all of the implications and the charges definitely would be absolutely huge our record is terrible and it would whilst it wouldn't obviously shut people up about it or put it to bed or anything it would absolutely be a resounding answer to it because lots of people are saying well how are you going to cope with that how are you going to deal with that pressure and these players can come on the other end of it with three points yeah absolutely massive and that's another really challenging fixture to the start of Maresco's tenure and they'll have come out of it relatively clean do you think you'll win?

7:56give me a score prediction oh yeah definitely win definitely going to predict a win I'll go 2-1 Wow Mmm Mmm Okay But we'll be losing at half-time 1-0 Oh Alright then No problem Anfield's second half Now for the team who have to play Manchester City Since they were found guilty of all those Charges Liverpool Gareth I was thinking about this game Well I've talked about this game a lot We've had a long break It almost feels like an important game for Liverpool Because I almost feel that Everybody's expecting this atmosphere at Anfield Now This atmosphere will be there but this team and this manager have probably because it's new have not used the Anfield crowd yet to sort of propel into performance and win a big game maybe Atletico Madrid had features of that without it being a full on rocking night and I'm really interested to see how Liverpool go about it and the manager understanding how he needs to use this crowd I'm really interested to see what the manager says before the game actually because I don't think it's in his nature to ramp things up.

9:04He just doesn't come across as that type of guy. I just want to speak about football and I can see him batting the City charge as well. And I'm thinking, I wouldn't mind him just throwing a little hand grenade in there and just revving the supporters up and using the atmosphere to try and get the three points, which is the most important thing. Yeah, 100%. I've been thinking similar. I mean, you know, lots of conversations, obviously, around all the City stuff about our time under Jurgen Klopp and because he ended up with more trophies. and you think about Jürgen and think he 100 % would have used it.

9:35He 100 % would have said something about it. He 100 % would have referenced the crowd and ramped us up and got us going because that was what he was good at. One of the things he was good at, he recognised that power of the Anfield crowd and he used it regularly and referenced it regularly. Areola, as you say, yet to do that. I'm the same. I found him pretty sensible, pretty reserved, quite quiet almost. you can't see him sort of you know doing this press conference where he calls them out and says let's go and beat the cheats or whatever you know what I mean he's probably just going to be fairly straight bat but I think all that side of it will still come from from fans anyway I mean you know all I do is talk on a podcast and I've had loads of people DMing me saying you know can you ramp people up can you talk about it can you say you know the world's watching in and Anfield needs to be alive and I was like to me these things will just come from people anyway they don't need me to tell them you to tell them or anyone else I think it's there people are angry and look and forget the anger and forget the situation we were always like that when we played City anyway do you know what I mean because they're almost like these you know the new team in town the team that want to say they're the best and the biggest and the greatest and that's what we think we are so anyone sort of coming to our manner and saying that will we rile against that so you know we play Man United you know we always did that when Chelsea came to town and they were like that that started to become a game and I think and it's been like that with City I think and I think look you know harnessing that energy getting stuck in giving us something to sing and shout about early doors and all that you know it's quite old school isn't it and some people say ah you know football's moved on from all that but I always think about that you know that that night against Barcelona there's a tackle dead early doors for being here on Suarez and it sets the tone and so you know I'd love us to do that, but I'm old school, I'm 50, and I'm used to, you know, I watch, I don't know, Steve McMahon play or whatever, you know what I mean?

11:34And I know you can't do that now. So we'll see, we'll see. I think it's dead interesting. It'd be good to get in there. It'd be good to, you know, all vent our spleens and get something out, and hopefully we come the other side with a victory. It's interesting what you just said, because a lot of what you're worried about about City is similar to what we've been worried about, about Liverpool, about being a little bit too open, the midfield not being strong enough and that kind of stuff. But we've actually chalked up a few clean sheets now and shown a bit of fight. Bournemouth was terrible, but we got the result, we fought for the result, and I quite liked that.

12:11Do you know what I mean? I'm not that bothered about silk. I'll take the iron fist inside the silk, if you like, and we showed a bit of that, I thought. I just think it's interesting, because I think a lot of the focus will be on City, and rightly so, but when your team's Liverpool, you're always looking through that prism. I'm looking at, like, this feels like the first real top team we've played. Atletico Madrid are a really good team, got good players, but when you think of what Liverpool have spent in the last year or two, we still should beat Atletico Madrid at home, in my view. But this feels like team top of the league, good team, good players.

12:45I think it's almost a test for Liverpool as well. Not just, like, you know, the atmosphere, but actually on that pitch as well. But, Stu, I want to come to you. You think of this atmosphere. Now, this is probably something that we miss, don't we, when we're out of the game or we're certainly not players. What are the atmospheres? You played in similar to something like this, going into that cauldron. How did you deal with that? I think it inspires you. I think if you've got anything about you, it should really inspire you. I covered the Newcastle-Liverpool game at the start of the season. and I'm watching Izak and he shrunk under the pressure of things and I'm thinking, well, what an opportunity for him to say, hey, have some of this, this is what you're going to miss.

13:33And I was really disappointed in he didn't come out fighting almost, you know. And since then, to be fair, his form's picked up a fair bit. But you've got to be inspired by A, the support that you get from your own fans but also as well, you know when you go away from home and I come back from a World Cup having missed a penalty so everywhere I went, everyone's calling me a German and God knows what and then you score the only go at Old Trafford from about 135 yard free kick I've exaggerated a little bit and it's the only go at the game and you think, yeah, keep singing, Stretford end you know what I mean?

14:09So you do, you've got to show some personality on a football pitch and I think it should inspire I'm looking forward to the game Sunday I really am because the timing of it couldn't be better do you both think some of that's gone too much from the game because I think do you say something in your book Jamie something along the lines of like you you know you looked at everyone in the tunnel and they were like they're my enemy I hate them almost I'm going into battle with them and now you know you're watching Sky and they're all like alright lads you're okay and all this kind of stuff and you're like it's funny because it's you're always very careful I think when you're an ex-player to say in my day because I used to always think Tommy Smith was probably saying that about us you know what I mean it's not the same now it's not the same and stuff like that but what you're talking about there is the camera in the tunnel that really frustrates me when I do see players shaking hands now people will think oh what's the big deal but I always remember Gerard Uli Gerard Uli a French manager for us what over 20 years ago now if he when he watched the game have he seen you shaking hands with someone before the game I mean you would be in trouble I'm deadly serious.

15:17He would be furious. He'd be like, you're going to war. You're going to, like, you know, you need to be focused. You can see them in the bar afterwards. You can hug and swap shirts after. Even, like, a cup final. He would say to us, you know, notoriously, a cup final. You come out at Wembley. Everyone's waving at the wives. He used to say, if I see anyone waving at anybody in that crowd before the game, you know, it was a bit like, you've got to be, like, laser focused. It's the biggest, you know. So, yeah, but I don't like saying it because it's just, it's the nature of football or the game. It's always just slightly changing.

15:51I'll tell you what I used to quite like. I used to play club football on a daily basis and then turn up for an international squad and bump into people you've played against on the Saturday, Paul Merson and people like that, that have never met you personally before. And all of a sudden they see how you interact off a football pitch and they go, you're quite nice actually, aren't you? And they're so surprised because you're the Tasmanian devil on a Saturday. But that's how it should be for 90 minutes. Be what you want to be, play your strongest card, whatever that may be on a football pitch, and then afterwards you're a different animal.

16:27Don't think that you've got to behave that way off the pitch. You don't have to be.

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19:28Overlap Daily. We'll see you soon. Beth, I'm going to come to you. Are there enough Tasmanian Devils in the Manchester United team? No. Right now? Absolutely not. I mean, it's unrecognisable to the teams that we've seen, the players that we've seen in Manchester United teams that are super successful. I think the one that is gets a lot of criticism and stick, and that's Bruno Fernandes. What you're saying there reminds me of him a little bit in terms of what he does for the club behind the scenes, how unbelievable he is as a character that always gets spoken about, but on the pitch, if you're not a Manchester United fan, even some United fans don't really like the way he behaves, but he's the one on the pitch that you can tell every single inch of him wants to win.

20:09So for Man United, I think that's something where I think Carrick needs to step up a little bit in that department as well, because I'm not seeing enough character on the pitch. And I get that every manager is different in terms of the way that they conduct themselves. But sometimes if you've not got that on the pitch, you need to look to the sidelines and see that leader and see that authority on the sidelines. And I'd like that a little bit more from him as well. Do you think the break come at a good time for you? Because it looked like it was starting to unravel a little bit. Do you think it was a good thing and it's been an extended break, hasn't it, than what we normally have?

20:40I think it is a good thing because we're dealing with injuries as well, with players that we need to get back. We need Karlsbelieber back in that midfield. I mean, he's not been in there yet, but we need him to get into that midfield. ASAP, Ahmad, I think he's a massive miss that people don't recognise because he's not massive in terms of goals and assists, but the way he plays is super important to the way that Michael Carrick wants to construct his front three. I mean, we've got ongoing issues with our left-back situation, which is just, I mean, Luke Shaw, he did have that little injury. Thankfully, I think he's back now and he is our best left-back, despite the fact that he's probably maybe not at the same level he was and not the best calibre of left-back you want at the club.

21:18But it did come at a good time in the sense of we were doing super poorly, but also at the same time, I don't like writing off the start of the season. United weren't ready for the start of the season. We didn't back Carrick enough in the transfer window. Them issues, it came out straight away. He said he wanted a left-back straight away. We've got a loop-shot injury. Dog, who cost us in that City game, as much as it's not just him, that was an issue that cost us. The striker situation, he wanted a striker. Benjamin Sesko's got a reoccurring shin injury. And I don't think the manager really trusts him to put him in as his trusted centre-forward anyway.

21:53And then our midfield was supposed to have rebuilt it, but our big-money signing isn't available. So as much as the break did come at a good time, we've lost out on a lot of points and a lot of momentum because our club wasn't ready. You've got the Tottenham game and it feels like one of those games we're all going to be looking at. And whoever loses, you know what the headlines are going to be. How worried are you about where Manchester United are right now? Maybe even in the manager's situation between now and the next international break, where for either of these sides, really, it could really start to unravel.

22:26It doesn't become a start of the season then. You're almost getting to, not so much halfway, but you're a good chunk of the season in. I'm quite an emotional fan and I can be quite reactionary sometimes, so I've got to level myself up. That's why you're on the show. That's why I'm on the show. But I think I am pretty worried. I've heard some Man United fans say, oh, it's just the start of the season, oh, Kerry's going to pick it back up. But if you look at our fixture run between now and the next international break, it is heavy. We've got Atletico Madrid away in the Champions League. We've got Como away in the Champions League.

22:55I know it's not the likes of the PSG, but their fixtures that win... They're a good team, then. Yeah, we're not used to them. And our squad is thin. I mean, our best start in XI isn't good enough to win games in the Premier League anyway, never mind going in Europe, where Carrick's not got the experience of managing midweek and then at the weekend. So I am worried for that sense. And also, if you look at Manchester United previously, this is sort of the stage in the season where things have gone wrong for managers and the pressure's gone on. I think Eric Ten Hag went in the November international break.

23:24Ruben Amorim was under pressure at that point but he got a little bit longer until after Christmas so Carrick has got the capability of putting some results together we've seen that and I feel for him because as much as I do think he is a bit out of his depth and I do think he is a little bit too inexperienced for the position that he's in now to reap the success that Manchester United fans demand at this point I also feel like he's been massively let down and there's unrealistic expectations of what he can get out of this squad we've not reinvested well enough in the summer at all especially I think as a United fan when there's such a prime opportunity to get that momentum you finish third you can say it's a false finish because it's one game a week and other teams weren't at the races we've still finished third we've got Champions League football we're attractive Man City have got a new manager I mean we don't know what's going to happen one of the biggest managers at the Premier League team Pep Guardiola has left Liverpool are in a transitional period Chelsea are in a transitional period that's where I think Manchester United If you are going to keep a manager that isn't experienced and got the results he did based off big game players like Casemiro, like Bruno Fernandes, you've got to back him in the summer with big game players.

24:35And we didn't do that. And if you knew you didn't have the money to spend to go and do that, the fans wouldn't have liked it because his results did dictate him to get the job. you should have got someone who's used to working with parameters like an Emery who can get what is best out of a squad that's maybe limited and does have the European pedigree and experience to also manage that workload with Europe as well. So I think the ownership and the way that they've run the club and the decisions they've made has ultimately left Manchester United in this spot. But it's going to fall on Carrick and he's got to work out on how do I get this team?

25:08Because they were capable of it, playing like they did against Man City and Arsenal when he first came in and I get there's a lot of moving parts from that. We have lost Casemiro but it is possible. How is he going to do that? And hopefully in this international break he's worked it out a little bit. We'll see. I want to ask you about international breaks. You know, obviously you're involved when you were coaching in the game as well. Especially with this extended break, how do you ever feel when you've got the players back? Even when you were at West Ham at Moisey as well? I think, Was it almost difficult to get the season going again?

25:43The term, well, it's got easier nowadays because the last games are on the Tuesday, so you've got your players back before the Saturdays. All the internationals used to be on a Wednesday, and if you're travelling away in Eastern Europe or whatever, really, really difficult to turn around the players quickly, especially if you've got an overnighter. But I think when certainly supporters talk about the international breaks, they see it as a detriment to the clubs. Oh, our players come back tired, they come back late. I'm going to throw a name out here, Rio Ingemoa. He's been away. He's a young man coming through.

26:17You know, you're aware of his ability. He's come on, I think, in the Czech game and done extremely well. I think he'll contribute again in the second Czech game. And whether he'll start or not, I don't know. But I certainly think the way he played in the first game, they're going to have to play him again. And he'll come back with such a feel-good factor. That's beneficial to the clubs, you know. and sometimes when we talk about international breaks and that type of thing, everyone sees it as a negative. Sometimes you've got to turn it on its head and say, our players are growing in esteem by being involved at the highest level internationally.

26:52Yeah, no, agreed. Kwaku, Chelsea, Xabi Alonso, my big mate, so we'll be very careful what you say about him. How do you think the start's been for them? It's been mixed. and I think Chelsea's deficiencies are clear for everybody to see and what Chelsea are good at is clear for everybody to see. I think going forward in the pre-season, Chelsea fans were very excited about this front three and I think they've delivered. Maybe not against Brentford in the final game before the international break, but this is a Chelsea side that clearly, defensively, have got big issues. And when you think back to the final day, the transfer window and that whole debacle and trying to bring in a centre midfielder, didn't bring one in and we left ourselves seriously short in that position to the point where you've seen two right-backs, Maurice James and Malagusto, fill those roles for Chelsea.

27:37I think for Xavi Alonso, Chelsea fans are still fully on board with his vision and fully on board with the fact that the club made him the manager and not the head coach. And so he's been very much involved in some decisions away from the football pitch. But ultimately on the football pitch, he's deployed a system that's left us vulnerable. And often when you play a back three, it's because you don't have faith in the individuals. And so you play extra defenders to maybe protect those individuals. but that should come with solidity and that should come with clean sheets and that should come with some resoluteness that Chelsea don't have and we concede too many goals concede the most goals in the Premier League and I think it's very jarring for Chelsea fans because unlike Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal when you guys win you want to win playing a certain type of football maybe less so your Liverpool team in your era but typically you want to see your team win win playing a certain type of way right attacking Chelsea, modern Chelsea was built in the image of Jose Mourinho where we were very defensively resolute and everyone remembers the 0-4 or 0-5 season where we conceded 15 league goals and so it's very jarring for Chelsea fans who are going to Stamford Bridge and see how it's going to see three goals against your mob or two goals against Hull we're loving the football going forward but it doesn't align with what we've been in the modern era and so that needs to change that needs to change very very quickly Do you think it's personnel or the structure of the team where you conceded goals?

28:56A bit of both a bit of both I don't think there's That question that answer's always a bit of both isn't it? Can you give someone the option of two? Tell us about the ball. No, but it's the personnel. We haven't got an A-side the centre-back. And when you look at an Arsenal, for example, they've got Saliba and you look at Liverpool over the last six, seven, eight years, Van Dijk. We don't have that A-side the centre-back and I think they raise everybody up around them. And so we've got players in the back three that I think are effective, but I don't know if the Kwa's that, I don't know if Levi Colwell's that just yet.

29:23And so there's a lot to work on, but ultimately the middle of the park's not good enough. In the game against Brentford, when you're starting Jordan Henderson and the Valentin Barco, that's warning signs. I think that's a worse midfielder than most of the teams in the Premier League. No disrespect to those players, but it just doesn't really work. And so there is a lot of work to do. And the thing about Chelsea is that fans do lose patience very quickly. So the game gets Bournemouth this weekend. If you don't get a result, I know Chelsea fans, some of them will start to turn already. And I don't think it's very fair, but that's the reality of the world that we live in.

29:52And so it's been a mixed start. There's been some real positives. And I like the fact, again, I know that you don't love players pulling out of international breaks. I feel Cole Palmer's pulling out of the England squad as a bit of a middle finger to the manager. I don't know. Speculation. Do you think he'll be fit the weekend? Definitely. Cole Palmer, Gael Pedro, Rhys James, Moises Caicedo, four of our best players not going on the international break, I think will be a huge benefit to Chelsea. I think at the start of the season, we were all sort of excited to see how Chelsea would do. I think we all felt he'd have a really good season.

30:26I'm probably tapering that a little bit from what I've seen. not so much the results even the performances even the first game at Fulham I was a little bit like well maybe not quite what I thought it would be it was only one game I get that is your ambition of where the season will end changed slightly on what you've seen in the first sort of six or seven games yeah more than slightly at the beginning of the season I was saying that we should be challenging for the title and that's just not you can just do that every year that's not a reality of the situation we're in right now yeah I think finishing in Champions League places is an absolute minimum for Jebby Alonso anything less than that and I think people will rightly be questioning his long-term future Chelsea manager.

31:01But it's a long season. We're five games into it. And you guys will know from last year, playing one game... When Maynard has sacked Ruben Amarim, it felt like the sky was falling. They were seventh or eighth. And so, really and truly, it's a long season. Can I just step in there? I know we should have done research. Someone else said it before. Has everyone only played five games in the league? Yeah. Have they? Yeah. It feels like... Liverpool must have played more than five. What games have I been watching? League Cup, Champions League, so much football. Yeah, we played Spurs in the League Cup, Atletico in the Champions League.

31:33We let it down up.

31:37It's still so early in the season, though, so so much can happen. For example, I know we're talking about my club, but people talk about Liverpool's mixed start to the season. If you go and beat Man City, you look at it and say, where's the one beaten? And in a season where things are so uncertain, you can still go for the title. So I've seen that, again, take my mind back to the 16-17 season where we won the league, having the manager who plays three at the back, changed things up and we went on an incredible run. So I'm not giving up hope, but based on the reality of what I've seen so far, yeah, it's not been a positive start.

32:12Maz, I'm going to come to you. Brighton 3, Arsenal 0. What a start of the season, probably the story of the season. So far, I would say Brighton. What's the ingredient this season that's maybe a little bit different from last season? I don't know if there's anything different, I suppose. We've been doing this now for a few seasons now, like getting so close and having a sort of identity. I think last season, Herzl didn't really have an identity. I feel like this season, he's starting to create a bit of an identity. And that's like having this pressing foot we saw, you know, with the press against Arsenal.

32:43It was insufferable. Like, they didn't give him a chance to even breathe, most of the Arsenal players. And I feel like with Herzl last season, he didn't have an identity. He didn't have a style of play, really. And I think he struggled from that aspect. So I think now he's starting to get a system now where no matter who comes in, they can play that role. So whether Yalcoy comes in, he can play that role, comes out, someone else replaces him. It's just that he's got now that system where no matter who plays in it, they'll do a job for Brighton. And, you know, it's based on hard work. And if you look at the running stats, I know football's not all about running, but the amount of efforts being put in in the press, just the general numbers.

33:16Look at Pascal Gross, like the numbers he's put in. What a player he is for you, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. He still doesn't get the credit he deserves. I think Pascal Gross, for me, I think, was it 17-18? Since the 17-18 season, I think he's up there, I think fourth in the chances created with like Bruno Fernandes and all the elites in the Premier League. And he still doesn't get the respect, in my opinion, that he deserves when it comes to his creative output in that sense as well. So yeah, I just feel like he's now slowly created a system now that, like I said, whoever comes in, whoever comes out, he can always just play that same pressing football in each game, no matter who the personnel is.

33:50I think as well, the world of football gets excited by change. You know, we've signed five players this summer. We've changed our manager, got a top manager coming in. But you overlook the word consistency as well. Brighton have got the word consistency running right through their teams. Oh, Brentford, by the way, now, you know, with a consistency, kept a manager appointed from within, haven't sold any players this summer. Leeds have added a couple of players to what they already had. There's a real level of consistency. the Arsenal they've had that consistency for five years with Arteta in their league finishes now they've won the title the word consistency runs through those four clubs and it's no surprise they're at the top end of the league Is that a big problem in football in terms of we are supporters we love the transfer window we love change it's just that that constant if something changes you feel like you get a renewed hope don't you?

34:42You feel the pressure of it as a manager when I was at Manchester City all the fans were going in the summer and I know the club have got no money whatsoever and I can't spend any money at all. And they're saying, who are we going to sign? And you've got to perpetuate almost this lie. Oh, we're looking at a lot of players. And your nose is getting bigger as you're saying it. But you do, you have to perpetuate it because that's what people want to hear instead of saying, well, the truth might hurt you a little bit here, but you know that mob that you were booing last year, we got them again, you know, and they're going to be playing.

35:15But that's the nature of it. I know you talk about consistency, but we also, like I said earlier, we lose a lot of players every transfer window so like we lost Van Heek we signed Vyskovic to come in we lose you know previously we lost Kaiseido we've lost Ben White we lost Kuka Rea like we've lost a lot of good players but it seems like every time we're great at replacing those players you ready for it yeah even though we haven't got the same nucleus of the squad each season however the new players that come in are able to replace those players that have gone out and do such a great job as well and the turnover is incredible like the amount we can sign so low so high and then still get the same quality in as well.

35:49That's what you miss sometimes. Alfie, I'm going to come to you with Hull. Again, another team who are being one of the stories of the season. Came up through the playoffs, similar to Sunderland, who've done well with promotion, but also with low possession, defending compactly, being a little bit more direct. And I think that's given you a bit of an advantage now. Yeah, well, I think I said last time I was on, it's quite unusual for a team coming up from the championship not to be used to dominating games, which is an advantage that we've had. I think, like I said, we did concede a lot of goals last season.

36:27We're playing a different system to what we played almost all of last season. We switched to it during the playoffs. It was obviously quite effective. It's been quite effective so far this season. I think when you sit in as deep as we do and you have half-decent players, it's just difficult, no matter who you've got, to break down that kind of system. And if you've got a little bit about you on the counter, which Mo Balumi on the right flank has been brilliant. We've signed players very strategically to play this way. They're physical, they're big, they're strong. The first test, we can match anyone athletically.

37:07Then a game of football secondary. Then that's when that kicks into gear. And yeah, we break with pace. we've got quick players that come off the bench against tyre lags and it gives you a chance. Who have been your key players so far? You're talking about how you set up in the Championship and you didn't have big possession there, but you've changed the system. And when you're talking about recruiting, you're talking about physically. But have you also recruited in the summer with the mind that you will be playing that system, do you think? Yeah, 100%. I think, well, we recruited for a back three and like I say, we recruited a little bit like Leeds did last season.

37:46big men like big big men I'm all out that's getting clipped so yeah and also to be fair it has to be said we signed a keeper who looks just out of this world Konstantinos Salakis Greece is number one he's kept well he kept three clean sheets in his first three games then he's kept three clean sheets in four games over the international break back to back clean sheets against Klopp's Germany who Greece had never went against. They've done them 1-0 basically playing the way we did, sitting deep, hitting a hinklop on the counter. So those have been the big ones. We signed Noble Mendy, centre-back again.

38:27He's a unit. But then also, surprisingly, I think I said to you, I think we signed nine players. I think we'll sign another nine. And you and Scalzi Beth laughed. We ended up signing 18 players. So that was fun. But the team itself, because we've done well, we've been able to blood them gradually we're not you know playing nine signings starting they're coming on so you've got that like core that he knows he can he can trust and then we're seeing who comes in and who does well and then they can sort of step into the team Probably the only negative around making a good start to the Premier League for a promoted team is that if you do go down do you think there'll be more disappointment is there almost now a little bit of a feeling oh we could stay up here yeah obviously inevitably there's more there's going to be more of that than if we'd lost every game and then go down but I don't I don't really think we're that kind of fan base that is like listening to everyone else speak it sounds very stressful supporting some of these clubs we've sort of we go into it you know no one expects us to do anything we're we're having a hell of a time like it's just a laugh following City at the moment so not that City should be clear probably not a laugh following that City whole city so no I don't think it'll get obviously if we were at Christmas sort of looking at Europe and then we go down maybe but I think it's unlikely I think that people are pretty understanding and we're still pretty shocked that we're doing as well as we are Stuart can I ask you when you're a manager and it feels like I see what a lot of teams now in the Premier League a lot of teams are that they're really pressing high aggressively man to man as soon as that doesn't work they don't just go to the halfway and a lot of teams now almost get to the edge of the box and that deep block I mean how difficult is that to sort of come up with something to break that down Yes sometimes this is through experience you have to mix up your tactical approach just to freshen your players up over a season give them something to hang on to sometimes if things aren't going well if you like you know you almost sell a dream to the players you know right we're going three at the back today because we think we're going to do this.

40:43And you have to sell a dream just to... Stimulate them. Yeah, stimulate them, keep them interested, whatever it may be. So the managers that can do... The best managers in the world see a problem before us mere mortals see a problem on a football pitch. Everyone can talk tactics nowadays because we're bombarded with it. But the top managers in the world see something. They see pictures that we don't. You know what I mean? that you think, well, how did you see a problem generating from there before any of us did? That's why you're the best in the world, you know. They move their tactical approach on, like Pep did, maybe like Alex did, all of those types of things.

41:23They move it on and they create this euphoria around their clubs and a tactical approach to a game, whether it be full press, sitting off, low block, whatever it may be. and you dovetail that and you mix it up if you can as well.

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43:35Well, a team who beat Hull going into the international break was Newcastle. Adam, what do you make of the job the manager's done since he's come in? It's been a lot of fun. I'm probably one of the clubs that were most glad for the international break coming in because the results had been excellent but the underlying performances had been a little bit alarming depending on how much attention you were paying I think if you'd said to me and Alfie the first week we were on here you'll be on the same amount of points after five games would have probably pulled a face and gone yeah probably fouls sounds about right to pick up as many points as we have this early with that much turmoil that much changeover that much disruption is unbelievable and massive testament sort of like the quality of the manager they've brought in.

44:15The club, though, themselves, I think, will have looked at all the performances and there will be a couple of alarm bells ringing there. It's interesting hearing Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool, Man City, everybody's talking about how easy the teams seek to be to play through and it's because new manager, new manager at the end of last season, new manager, new manager, we're in the same boat as well. A lot of managers now, it feels like, they used to come in and get the basics right first, make you more solid, but now everybody wants to put their stamp on things. You see the attacking side of the team, develop a lot sooner than you do the defensive side.

44:47And I think Jaizia's got a similar problem. We've seen how exciting they can be going forward. They're a really great transitional threat. It's no coincidence, Anthony Alanga suddenly looks brilliant again. Now we're playing his style of football a lot more in keeping with what he was doing at Forest. But we have been statistically the easiest team to play through in the Premier League. I think we've conceded the highest number of shots in the division. The underlying numbers have a second bottom or something like that. Which, on the one hand, is bad. You can't have that continue over the course of a season because it will come back to bite you.

45:15But you have put points on the board and picked up big results in that time, the Liverpool game especially. That's a massive testament to a bit of character that they're building, to a bit of togetherness the team's got, to finding a way to win when perhaps the performances aren't going to get you there on their own. So it's been really exciting so far, but I'm hoping having three weeks on the training ground during the international break, with a lot of the squad not really disappearing and going off, you will see a more controlled, slightly more solid version of them when we come back. Of all the players that you lost in the summer, who so far have you missed most?

45:51So far, probably... I wouldn't even say Anthony Gordon, because Harvey Barnes has always been a more than able deputy. We haven't really seen... I think Nico Gonzalez has yet to really sort of cement himself in the centre of the pitch. He came in quite late in the window. He was concussed against Leeds, I think it was. Missed the next game. So at the minute, you would say there is an issue right in the centre of the park, where, again, we're very easy to play through. A lot of chances are being created in that sort of central area. Lewis Miley's been in there. Sean Sturr's been fantastic. But a lot of the qualities we're seeing in these players who've replaced them have been on the ball.

46:25They've been in possession, whereas we used to be such a difficult team to play against without it. So certainly you'd probably say we're feeling the absence of Bruno. We're feeling the absence of Sandro Tinali, if that could even be believed. But to be putting the points on the boards while we're still working out what this team is out of possession. You know, we talked about we haven't bought any big men. We're probably the only club in the league that's actually gone for technicians and young players over packing it full of really hard lads. And you hope that they'll find a way of playing where we don't look necessarily like a soft touch.

46:54But at the minute, getting played through in centre midfield is a bit of a concern. We're chasing shadows around at the minute in a lot of the games. But again, you know, it's a results business. I think Newcastle have done far better than I thought they would. I think they had every excuse in the summer to sort of come out with some really tepid performances. I was at the Liverpool game and I thought Newcastle played well in that game. Liverpool were fortunate to get away with a point, took a point on the road. But I think their points tally and their performances have been better than I was expecting.

47:25I think that's why you excused the performances with the manager so far. Because like you say, the groundwork was there for a disastrous start to the season. Every excuse available, these players are young, these players are inexperienced. We've lost leaders in the dressing room. But you watch the performances, and while they're not controlling performances, like we talked about the whole game, like Hull looked at every chance of getting back into that after a really good start, but they did hang on and they did find a way to get out of there with the points in a way that perhaps they weren't doing last season.

47:53I think it was the stat about Newcastle lost the most points from winning positions. And obviously, there's a tactical element to that, there's a structural element, but then when you hear about how many players are agitating for moves and wanting to wear, you do start to question the character on top of that. and I think you're seeing already that that's something he's done immediately since he's come in. There is a fight to the team that maybe there wasn't last year. Right, last but certainly not least, Chris, Leeds in fifth position on nine points. This feels like it's not just this season.

48:24For me, the Leeds story, every time we do a Leeds game, you go back to the game at Manchester City. Half-time at Manchester City. The turnaround after that. So there's been a real show of consistency through this manager and these players now for a long time. Yeah, well, Stuart, you took the words out of my mouth. I ended up talking about the consistency and Alfie talking about getting big hard men in the team and that recruitment came from the moment Leeds got promoted where it was a case of, like you say, you're not going to be able to match the technical level of the big hitters in the league but you can match them and beat them physically which is like the whole thing that ever since that half-time change at Manchester City where my opinion is like you'll know with management that that formation change to a back three doesn't just happen immediately at Man City where he's just ripped up everything and thought, we're just going to change formation now.

49:10He's worked on that for months prior and that was just the catalyst that he needed to actually change it. And lo and behold, it's got the strengths out of everyone in the team. We look so consistent and it's almost like with a new rainy night in Stoke, everyone fears about going to Ellen Road under the floodlights at the moment. Sorry, Adam, but yeah, like everyone is struggling at the moment with it. Daniel Farker I'm a huge fan of him there's a lot of questions wasn't there when he came up with this talk about maybe even losing his job I mean you're talking about the work there in terms of the system do you think that was always the plan to change and have that sort of adaptability to play different systems I think it was always sort of the weakness of Daniel Farker or the perception of him when he was at Norwich that he never changed it was always Norwich were trying to play this attractive brand of football they beat manchester city early on in that first season when they got promoted but then got walloped for the second half of the season finished bottom and we've just been hoping he has that pragmatism to be able to see well the attractive brand isn't working we can't play out from the back we've got dominic calvert-lewin up front we've got speedy wingers let's play direct and let's play for set pieces you're looking at arsenal at the top end of the table are optimizing that to the level that they've won the league we're just doing it to a sort of micro aspect and you've got to give credit to Daniel Farker because he's the one who's, yes, the recruitment team have built a team to allow him to do it, but the manager's got to be the one to put it into practice and make a team that's actually viable at Premier League level.

50:44You can't just change formation and hope for results. Who's been the standout player this season? There's been a few. I think someone that needs to get more praise than he ever gets is Ethan Ampadu, club captain. ever since he came in he was immediately the leader and signed him for seven million from Chelsea and it's just absolutely remarkable how easily he's made the midfield role look as a number six like he's a classic Leeds United but bruiser at the base of midfield but he just looks so elegant on the ball as well like you're looking at the Wales performances even though they lost to Denmark the other night all you're seeing on social media was oh my word Ethan Ampadu is outstanding and he just doesn't get the credit in the mainstream that I feel like it warrants.

51:27Obviously, there's other players there, but as the club captain, he signed early end of his 20s and then within a year, Farka said, you are my club captain now and led us to promotion, led us to survival last season, led us to an unbeaten start now. And he just, he is tremendous. All right, brilliant, Chris. We just want to ask you one little question before we go. So, the current bottom three is Spurs are in there, Fulham are in there and Coventry. Who do we think, now that we've seen all the teams in the league, five games in, still early, who do we think are our three teams to go down? City.

52:04LAUGHTER Yeah. Could you imagine City and Spurs both going down? That means they're just going to beat us twice in the Championship. That would be disastrous, that, wouldn't it? Coventry is a more serious, obvious one, just because they've started Paul Leona. I mean, that win away at Nottingham Forest might be the catalyst that Frank Lampard needs to sort of kick on and start to have a proof of concept that his tactical methods are working. But I just don't think they did enough in the transfer market and even still, Forest could have equalised later on, a dodgy VAR decision went their way, so I just don't think that.

52:39It's the classic example, isn't it? You get a team comes up from the Championship, plays brilliant football and as Alfie pointed out used to dominate in possession and whether it's pride or just like a philosophy they decide to try and enforce that as best they can in the Premier League and it's so much harder to do and then you get another side comes up nobody's expecting anything of Sunderland last year for example have no ego over their system actually lose a lot of their better players and reinforce the squad with as we keep saying very big very hard men and all of a sudden they can compete Should we call it want two teams then?

53:11Because most of us feel like Manchester City may not be in this league next season. So we're going to name two. So you think Coventry? Yeah. Jamie, do you still think Sunderland or Gal? That was a hot take. That was a hot take. It's so early, though, because once the European fixtures kick in and we don't know what managerial changes they're going to be, it's just, you're throwing data aboard here. Are we woodied for Fulham? Yeah. I wouldn't say that word, but I'm hoping they go down. United have played Hull they've played Ipswich they've played Fulham the only one we beat was Ipswich and to be fair it's not just about the result it's the way you watch the teams perform for me I thought Ipswich was probably the weakest out of the three but then they're doing alright in their other fixtures it's difficult I think when we played Fulham I thought you've got enough about you to stay up but then were United just incredibly poor it's difficult I think it's anyone you're worried for in the Premier League?

54:05Ipswich and Coventry definitely I like you at the start of the season and tipped Sunderland to go. Yeah. So I'm going to stick with it. You ought to be in football, yeah. It's interesting no one says Spurs because they've shown us who they are, have been over the last two years, 17th, 17th. We understand mitigating circumstances around those positions, but they are the team in the Premier League that haven't won a game yet. And eventually it catches up. You can only circle the drain for so long. I know they invested heavily in the summer and we think that the quality will come good. But let's just see because the loss against United and it's another game they haven't won.

54:36I don't know. I'm just looking at Spurs. I think it'd be a big... You don't think you're enjoying that one? Yeah, look. It'd be a really big leap for Spurs to be where they want to be, but I think if you've watched their performances this season, like, they haven't won the game yet, but they've shown a lot more than a lot of the other teams down there. But we've talked about character before, how long this goes on, all of a sudden those performances start dropping off. I wouldn't have my feet on the sofa if I was a Spurs fan at this point, but I'm not overly worried for them. I think all it takes is one big result, though, for them, and then they could swing it.

55:05And that could be the next one. Oh, don't. Oh, yeah. That would be a lovely way to finish. Old Trafford, no. That's getting clipped. OK, that's it for today's episode of The Fan Debate, brought to you by Skybet. Catch you next time. APPLAUSE

55:25This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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