City’s Financial Fallout, Points Deduction & Football’s Broken Rules

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1:57It's just gone crazy Right now Every football supporter Is saying This needs to be dealt with quickly Everton got a point of deduction Yeah They could have been sunk No theirs was a situation Where it was realistic For them to stay up Yours is not going to be realistic Because we've got 40 points It isn't realistic For City to stay up No What are you on about? It's just killing the league It's killing the season It's killing every team Because you're just waiting To see what will happen If Villa are getting Ripped up every season Because of alleged rules To protect three or four It's an empty league anyway The whole league's just On its arse basically because no one can stop him.

2:28If you were still an Everton fan, Jamie, you might have a different view. You forgot where you come from, I haven't, mate. Don't worry. I'm wrong. Change of your support.

2:41Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. I'm pleased to welcome Seamus Coleman onto the sofa once again, as well as our loyal fans, and we are very pleased to welcome Kieran Maguire. So Seamus, I'm going to start with you. to get you going. First question. Yes. Would you rather Donegal win the Sam Maguire or Everton win the FA Cup next year? That's a tough first question that. That's why it's written I'm going to upset some kind of fan base anyway. I think I think I have seen Donegal well Donegal won All-Ireland in 2012 and then I was born for the other one so I've seen that and I hope that happens as well but I think Everton have been crying out for some success so I think that would be great for Everton to win something.

3:32OK, so Moisey and the boys win in the FA Cup next year. Outside of Everton, is there any other Premier League side you'd wish you'd played for? Or you could imagine yourself playing for? No, listen, I was so fortunate to play for Everton and I loved it, Jimmy. Growing up as a kid, it's no secret I supported Celtic and Man United. They were my teams. Were they your teams as a kid? As a kid, you don't be long forgetting the Man United one as you start playing. That goes out the window. But I grew up supporting Celtic and Man United. But listen, I can't say anything other than Everton. I'm happy that I've played for Everton for as long as I did.

4:10You've kept Baz happy. He's smiling. I bought him. I bought him. I bought him. All right, thanks, Seamus. Kieran McGonaghan, come to you now. First question. Busy few weeks for you. That's right. We've had the Manchester City broke. I've done over 100 stories on that. Not 115, though. Yeah, well, not yet, but it's a global story. So one night I started off, I was doing Australian breakfast telly, then I did Indian, then I did Nigerian, then it went to Europe. I did all the European stations and I ended up doing New York and then California. Everybody's fascinated by this. And then we've had other stuff as well with what's happened in terms of the regulator, in terms of potential takeover at Everton.

4:53and there's a few other clubs who are lined up for potential sales as well. So, yeah, the world of football finance has gone crazy. Kieran, because we've got Sheamus on, we've got Baz on, Everton's support, they're one of the few clubs in the last few years who've been affected by financial fair play and the Premier League basically giving them a sanction. What Everton got, I think, was 10.8 points, something around that mark. Are we looking at another zero on top of that with Manchester City because of the scale of it? Is that what we're talking about? I think so. If you take a look at the Everton case, it was effectively an overspend of£20 million.

5:34And that affected one single season. What we've seen with Manchester City, the overspend or the sham contracts, it's£900 million. So that's 45 times the number compared to Everton. Now, we don't know how much of that will have actually catapulted them. over the financial fair play limits. But Everton cooperated with the Commission. The one thing that Manchester City have not done from day one is cooperated with the Premier League. So that can increase your points deduction, as well as the fact that it's going to be a multi-season impact. So you've got to be looking at a very significant punishment.

6:13And that's when the issues start. Because again, look what's happened to Everton. They had to pay Burnley£35 million in compensation for the year when Everton broached the FFP rules because another commission was set up and they said, well, we think Everton were better off by four points that season. If they hadn't had those four points, then Burnley would have been not relegated. So therefore, you've got to give them compensation. You think about what's happened at Manchester City. We've got nine seasons. So that's nine seasons when other clubs potentially, four of them could have perhaps won the Premier League.

6:49You've got all of those seasons when clubs could have got into the Champions League. Champions League is worth£100 million a year. So you've got that. And what about the players? Because you know about contracts and bonuses. If you get into the Champions League, you can get a 25 % bonus. Well, if I've got a squad of 25 players who are, let's say that they're on an average of£100 ,000 a week, that's£25 ,000 a week, you multiply that by 25, you multiply that by nine. You've potentially got£300 million in compensation to players in terms of claims. So the lawyers are going to have an absolute field day if it's a really big punishment.

7:27I mean, that's probably looking ahead of where this can go. I don't even know how you're policed. I don't even know where that started. it almost feels like there's too many people involved actually for that to happen. In some cases, once you're talking about one player, that just never ends. When you talk about clubs, I don't even know, that affects every club in the Premier League, doesn't it? You could say, well, if City were in the league that season or let's say everybody takes the points off City that season, I don't even know where that starts and ends. That could be going on for years.

8:00I know we say this has gone on for years, but I don't even know where you go with that. But in terms of right now, every football supporter is saying this needs to be dealt with quickly. I've heard something along the lines of this has to be sorted out in a 12-week period from when they made their appeal city. And inside that 12-week appeal, or 12-week period, the appeal can only last for five days. So people are trying to work that out and say, well, OK, we should get the verdict in January. Is that fact? does that? That's according to the Premier League handbook. But we've only seen a 40-page report, sort of the summary of the report, and a lot of that's been redacted.

8:43My understanding is that the full report is 900 pages, and one of the sides has taken action to ensure that that's not being published as yet. So we don't know the full details in that. There's got to be a separate Commission, which actually sets the punishment for Manchester City on the basis of the report. Now, for all we know, because if you take a look at what happened with Chelsea over the course of the summer, Chelsea knew what their punishment was. Remember, Chelsea were in breach of more than 70 issues themselves. And they knew the punishment and then they appealed and we found out the appeal verdict.

9:21So we don't know whether Manchester City actually know the verdict and they're appealing, or it could be that the Premier League are appealing. They don't like the verdict. So in theory, we should be there by mid-February. But I think the fear is, even if we get the judgment and even if we go through the appeal process and the appeal process and the judgment should only be three to four weeks, that should take us to end of February at the very, very latest. What happens if Manchester City then say, well, we don't like Premier League commissions. We think they're flawed. We're going to go to the High Court and we're going to say that this is against the principles of English law and that could go and slow things down for four or five years.

10:02Well, that's what they'll do. That's what they've done from the very start. They've kicked this can down the road, haven't they? They're probably going to do it again. So I think what you're telling me is I think there's a good chance this will not be sorted out before the end of the season. And actually, Manchester City could win the Premier League this season on the back of all this. if they perform well. I mean, there's a footballing side of things and then there's sort of the legal and the governance side of things. Yet there's certainly no guarantee that there will be a points deduction applied at the end of the season if that is the recommendation that's made by the Commission itself.

10:39And it's very difficult to see, given what's happened at Everton, given what's happened at Forest, given what's happened at Leicester, all had on-pitch punishments for the financial breaches, then surely it has to be the same for Manchester City as a bare minimum. And is that going to be on a multi-season basis? But getting it through is another matter. Shane, I just want to ask you, because obviously we speak to the fans here, they know how they feel and everyone sees it from their own point of view as a club. What was it like inside Everton when you were given the punch deduction? How did you feel as a player?

11:11Were you angry with the people upstairs of putting you in that position or did you look at the Premier League or the people involved and think you were harshly treated? Yeah, I think a bit of everything you said there, Jamie, to be honest. And I'm sure Baz will feel the same a little bit as well because these decisions, the first 10-point deduction, I think, was November time. It's got nothing to do with us lads that are on the pitch and you're so proud to play for Everton Football Club. You know how much it means to all the fans and maybe because of decisions that have been made higher up, like without maybe a thought, I don't know.

11:44And then before you know it, you've got a 10-point deduction. And we weren't in a great place as a team back then. So a 10-point deduction for us at that time, people might forget, it nearly guaranteed relegation for how we were playing. Thankfully, we'd started that season quite well. So the 10-point deduction, I think, took us from, I don't know, like 15th to second from bottom. But I just felt that it happened so quickly. Listen, I'm not educated, like you are carrying on it, but I feel like it happened so quickly. And then on appeal, it was taken down to six. So it tells you that, well, they weren't, that wasn't right to begin with, the 10 points, for the appeal straight away to come back with four.

12:24So that came back with four, lifted us up again. And then I think it went to April time and we got two taken off us again, which dropped us down in another couple of places. And like, that's April. It's a month before the end of the season. So very frustrated with whoever the decision makers are to overspend, that they can do that to the players, they can do it to the fan base. It is their life, it is everything to them that decisions can be made. And I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but how it can't be watched a bit more carefully that it doesn't get to a case where it's like, well, here's 12 points because the decision makers have made some bad decisions and you're getting punished and players and fans.

13:07and people have supported ever in their whole life are getting punished for this. Thankfully, we got ourselves out of it. Can I just ask you one last question on this subject? The independent football regulator is coming now, David Cogan. How could he affect any of this? Well, ultimately, the IFR mandate from the government, and this is now in statute, so he physically has these powers, they do have the power to force a sale of a club if they believe that the owners are not good for the game. So therefore they will have to do that assessment. Now, if all of these charges are proven, you've got to say, well, this is a huge deceit.

13:53If you take a look at the language which was used in the commission report, which was, I read these reports on a regular basis, I've never seen anything, you know, the sham contracts, the untruth, the unreliable witnesses that were put forward by Manchester City. This is really strong language that's coming. And it's difficult to therefore see how those people can survive in their jobs if the position is upheld. You then have to look at, well, who was telling the executives to make this decision? If that's traced back to the owner, then it's difficult to see how the owner would be able to satisfy the owners and directors and senior executives' tests.

14:30So under that situation, the regulator has the power to force a sale at the price that the regulator determines. Because otherwise, Manchester City says, well, we want£50 billion for the club, the owners. That's what they did with the sponsorship, didn't they? Cash only, yeah.

14:51And therefore, we could have a forced exit. And we saw similar happen at Sheffield Wednesday, where the regulator wasn't in place, but there was no doubt that the people working for the regulator were talking to other government agencies and they forced through the winding up order from HMRC.

15:17Luke, great to have you back, mate. How was the holiday? It was good, actually. Really enjoyed it. Where was it you went again? Lithuania. Lithuania? Correct, yeah. To miss out on the fan debate, you went to Lithuania. I wouldn't quite say that. I booked it in May. But, you know, I'm more than happy to welcome Max. I've had a decent amount of attention off it, and it's rattled a few people, so... Well, you always rattle a few people. Good luck to you. What do you think would be a fair punishment? To be honest, like, as far as I'm concerned, like, you know, we've got an expert next to us, Kieran, financially.

15:48I've said the whole time, if this all comes back, you know, with the appeal and all that as well. No, no, right now you're guilty. Right now, OK. so right now the points deduction I'll take anything I don't care it's not going to impact my match going experience a fair punishment like I said I'm not an expert like Kieran but it will if every game's pointless though that will really match that experience I don't think it's pointless is it well if you got a points deduction you were going down I still enjoy now is it pointless that's pointless checking down to wherever I'm going that's not pointless yeah look at teams that have already been sank down but if you win or lose it doesn't mean any different I think it does if you're down it's a football game yeah but if it's rolling relegation point deduction Which means for maybe Four to five years You have consistent relegation How would that not ruin Your matchday experience?

16:29Because Give to the temple It's a rolling point So how many points? You tell me So if you had minus 40 Minus 50 points Every year There's still something To fight for What? Look at Seamus He just said there Everton got a points deduction They could have been sunk No theirs was a situation Where it was realistic For them to stay up yours He's not going to Because if you've got 40 points It isn't realistic For City to stay up No What are you on about? If you've got 50 points Yeah you'd have to get what how many do you need to stay up? need 40 30 you've stayed up on 30 before United could be going to 30 fuck off I'm not joking I'm not joking you've been doing this without 40 points is like the magic number but you're so you're since when was football as well just about going and watching your team win every week that's not what football's about move the gal person up it's not what we go you just said it was pointless to get it if you know you're going down per season it would be pointless how is it pointless?

17:20how is going to the game pointless? knowing every game They're genuinely flawed There's one thing about the experience I don't get the logic There's one thing About the experience Going away from home And following your team Yeah The main part of that Is that you are fighting For something But if we got 40 points We're still fighting for something Yeah but Are you getting 40 points If you get a 50 point deduction Brennan you probably won't have Haaland won't have Cherky Won't have Sene So you think if we get A 50 point deduction Haaland should just go in It might not go the first season But if you go down that first season Are we going to have 11 players on the pitch Yeah probably So is it pointless for 60 points No it's not pointless If you said 100 points It's still not pointless That's bollocks That's bollocks Anyone It's not true The whole point If we've got 38 games To go and watch your team I will be there There'll be however many Other people there And the whole point Of going to a football game For me Is going to the game Being with your mates Being out of the way That's completely fine But that's not your Matchday experience Okay so if we're playing Man United in a season And we're on minus 700 points If we beat you And we even get close To sending you down Or stopping you Getting to Champions League Or putting you in the Bottom line Or winning a game Against United It's going to matter Then you get on the tram and you go, oh, it fucking won't work for anything, will it?

18:23Well, we've just beat you. Yeah, but also, it would be pointless for a lot of City fans because we saw midweek in the Champions League a lot of City fans didn't turn up without the point deduction. So, if you have point deduction, we still have as many fans in our ground as you have every week at Chelsea.

18:39You're making so many sounds. I got a little bit embarrassed. Like, if it was one of us here and our club was facing the same person, you'd be the first person onto us rubbing it down our throat. Like, you're sitting here on the ultra-defence. I don't know. I wouldn't say I'm on the ultra-defence. I'm not saying I've got zero-defence. But if it was Arsenal, you'd defend Arsenal? That's the Arsenal thing. I'm not mad at defending it. A realistic point of view of... So you're the City fan now. If I said, what would you say now? You're sat there. I understand you're in a very difficult position because I know that outside of this, you also want to be seen in the right light by the club and the players.

19:11I get that. I understand that. I can't come up there. Have you seen he's involved with the club? No, no, He's not involved in the club But you know Opportunity You don't want to sit there And slate Man City I'm not going to sit In Slate Man City anyway There is zero Remorse or anything Remorse What do you mean remorse? Remorse in the sense of like Like Kieran was saying So what do you want me to go I'm really sorry everyone I'm not going to support you No I'm not asking about that Every fan is doing the same No but you're like You're saying like You're sort of like Moving just around it Like I think you deluded I said What I'd say is If City got a 70-80 point deduction And that was the case You think that wouldn't change Your matchday experience No My Saturday would still be going to the City game.

19:46If we were in League 2, League 1, the Champions League, I think he's saying he's going to the NBA. What I'm saying is, in terms of my life and my livelihood, it wouldn't change my life against the game. You wouldn't be posting videos after the game. Yes, I would. I'd be going to the sale 2. I'd be there. I'd be there. I would be there. That's what I'm saying. And I think that might be the thing that I think some fans understand. If you're going to the games, and that's sort of the attitude of City fans. Think about Anfield. People saying, that game's pointless, whatever. it's not pointless because that's what it's about City have been down there before and that you were fighting for something how can you not get that if you were down there you wouldn't be on the show this is a show this is a show do you think that really genuinely as a fan it's great to come on and speak about my club here it really is but do you really think as a fan there's people coming you just said it won't affect your livelihood would you still be coming on here on the fan debate well I mean if City weren't in the Premier League maybe not but I don't think genuinely as a fan people are asking me for my expertise as a fan football fandom we've got Kieran he's a financial guy I don't understand why people think as a fan it's going to impact me going to the game Luke can I just step in before we take it somewhere else Luke's come back with a bang hasn't he he went to Hyde and he's come out fighting for his club after Manchester City as I'm sure he would but Harrison I want to come to you do you think the uncertainty of knowing about Manchester City affects the credibility of this season's title race and the wider competition is that what we're all talking about here Luke come on you've had your side The Premier League have used the word sham Is that what you feel And we feel as a group of fans About the Premier League this season Yeah I think the game at Anfield Kind of said it all Like the last 45 minutes about it Like just felt weird Honestly I've got no problem with City fans Doing what they're doing I think every fan base would do the same So I will give you that Right club on the sleeve and all that But I just think this season just, it feels a bit lost, like a bit vague.

21:50It just feels that they've got an unbelievable team, like an unbelievable football team, to watch the depth they've got in the squad. But the impact it's having on everyone else is just massive. It's absolutely massive. And that game at Anfield, it just felt as soon as you went 1-0 up and then got the bananas out in the stands, it just feels really flat. And it just feels like the whole league's just on its arse, basically, because no one can stop them. and we'll give him as much crap as we want. They're just winning. I know they didn't win this weekend, but they just keep winning. They're playing great football.

22:23They like watching them. Probably the best football team in the country at the moment. But what's it all for? And I think that's... It's a really worrying sign, that. And you were saying before that it has to be resolved very quickly. I'm in the same boat. I don't think it'll be solved for years. Years. They'll be making signs in January, in the summer. they could win a Champions League could win a couple Premier Leagues and there'll be an asterisk on it if they get found guilty but right now why should they care really right now? Can I just bring you in Seamus because we were just speaking to Keiran before about how many clubs it involved and naturally you think of Liverpool and Arsenal because they've been fighting for titles over the years but we're just looking at I've just got this card in front of me and it's calculated that Man City's spending could have financially impacted Everton by over 66 million as a club.

23:15And, you know, how it sort of affected you over the years, the eight or nine years they've been found guilty of. How do you feel as a player? How do you look at the City case? And maybe it was the, maybe times, maybe Champions League positions? Well, I mean, looking back, it did affect Champions League positions and that. And it's very hard to say, because that time's gone by. It'd be hard to say, like, oh, I missed out in the Champions League because of it. because I think the biggest issue with it for me is this is supposed to be the best league in the world. And whether it's City are guilty or not, like you said there, it's just killing the league.

23:53It's killing the season. It's killing every team because you're just waiting to see what will happen. And if they continue to win titles and that, the best league in the world having that massive question mark over it is strange. And I know we're talking about lawyers coming in and getting involved, but how Everton and Forest could be dealt with so quickly, so efficiently, I know we proved that we, or we said that, yeah, hands up, we got it wrong, but surely it shouldn't get to this point for the best league in the world. Obviously, yeah, we were affected Champions League-wise and that, but I mean, I'm not going to be knocking on anyone's door chasing lost bonuses.

24:30Well, if other people are, I would. It is though, because it's development to the club, isn't it? They beat us right at the end of that. Yeah, we should have gotten the Champions League. they beat us in the semi-final of a Carabao Cup I think on their calculations up to 2018 they stopped Everton getting in Europe a few times but you've got to ask one thing and listen, they deserve what they're getting Luke, you might be presenting with Carabao if you're innocent you can take that, can't you? Luke is definitely staying on this fan debate it's too important what I was going to say is though the other thing as well with the Premier League is like why are they doing it?

25:04the rules are garbage anyway you're saying it feels empty the Premier League feels empty anyway It's empty anyway. If Villa are getting ripped up every season because of alleged rules to protect three or four, it's an empty league anyway. If you were still an Everton fan, you might have a different view. But when you're in the party... Whenever you talk on this subject, you know I always pull you back up. Always. But when Everton were part of the Big Five and created the Premier League... No, no. The disparity was never the thing. I haven't forgot either. where you have. You've forgot where you come from, I haven't, don't worry about it.

25:41What I'm saying is the disparity is there anyway. Every club looks after themselves and everyone did that in the late 80s. Of course, but now the disparity's never been bigger. The disparity, even when you were playing, wasn't as great as what it is now. So we're looking at City and having a go with them. Rightly so, they should be punished. If this is guilty and it's held up and it doesn't take 15 years to go through the courts, I think we also need to look at the Premier League and say, if it is the best in the world, can it be done in a better way?

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28:32www.overlapdaily.com We'll see you soon.

29:04of the biggest clubs and clubs of a trotter trying to make that jump into well to be fair we've got most of the biggest clubs in the country here haven't we what what what do you feel about the rules because the rules people say the rules are there for the elite for and we always say that one don't we on social media the red cartel but what do you feel about the rules do you think that there should be rules in place that if an owner comes in with lots of money he should be able to give his football club a chance yeah like I yeah I do think that he should be able to because you want to encourage spending and the reason why it's the best league in the world is because of foreign investment I think there was a clear point where it went from not being the best league in the world to being the best league in the world and that was when Bramwich came in and spent all his money but if you look at the biggest clubs or the clubs that have been most successful in the Premier League era in this country Man City, Man United, Chelsea shit show when it comes to ownership groups Man United you don't have to talk about what's going on there Man City have got the charge looming over them and Chelsea were sanctioned in 2022.

30:01And so there's no ethical way to do it. And then we all sit here and moan about the Americanization of football, but we don't want American owners either. And every big six club, Barra City, there's been significant protests from fans against their owners, whereas Hicks and Gillette, Enoch out, KSE out in 2022. So there's no real way to fix this situation. I feel like football is almost broken in this country because it's such a commercial commodity. There's no ethical way to do it. And people have got that much money and those deeper pockets. Are they going to be the most ethical people? Football has caused a socialist game, but it's taken over by capitalists, and there's no way to...

30:34The NFL shouldn't be a state in charge of a football club. No, no way. I think we can all agree that states shouldn't... I mean, maybe not you, Luke. But, you know, states should not own football clubs, and we're seeing that, and that's the thing that's really worrying for me as a football fan. When the government's being leaned on, when they're talking about billions of jobs and billions of pounds being at stake, if we don't get the result we want, that's the underlying sort of thing. Could that not... Sorry to interrupt, but could that happen with an American billionaire? I understand there's political motivations.

31:02I think, like you said, look at football at its core. A hundred years ago, there'd be one rich mill owner and another rich mill owner, and it'd basically be, they're both pumping money into a football team. Nowadays, they've got nowhere near even 1 % of the money to invest in a football club. The game is getting so big. You've got these guys getting in charge, buying clubs. I know there's a difference, obviously, between a political side of things. You've got a country involved. I can't remember in my lifetime, I'm a Prime Minister stumbling over his word to the fans. If Elon Musk bought a team, that's not a country, is it?

31:31Or a state? Or somebody involved in a state? But he's still the richest man in the world, so would there not be political threats and motivations behind that? Well, this is back to something I always bang on about, isn't it? That fans need to care about who own the football clubs, and say so, and use the power that they've got in all of this. But what's happened with Bezos, though, right? Well, I don't want him. Musk being linked with Everton, so I'm not saying that. You know what I mean? It's just you look at it. There's no... Sorry. There mightn't be any real ethical billionaires like you just said.

32:00I'm just talking about the game in itself. When you're in the party and your club can spend money and all that, of course it's easy to go, no, we need these rules. But I don't like it. I know, I'm not saying you do. I'm just saying, that was my point overall, is that City have gone about it clearly the wrong way because it's 115 charges, and that's only up to 2018. We're assuming there's nothing after that, by the way. You beat us 4-0, mate. you should be happy about this. The only time. But what I'm saying is, how do anyone, if you're talking about a real genuine best league in the world and all that, how does anyone change it?

32:33But you know what does my adding about the City thing is this presentation of them almost being like white knights for the good of the game. No, no, no. I don't think anyone's presented. No one's presented. There's plenty of that on social media. It's like, oh, look, the challenge in the red cartel and all this. You know, if your owners had said, we don't think the rules are fair and this is why, Where would that have got us at? We'd have been sat there for 15 years. But there would have been sympathy at the very least. I don't think... But instead, we'll just make up our own rules and play by our own rules and absolutely blow, like, 10 years of history and more apart.

33:07Like, of course there's going to be no sympathy whatsoever from anyone who isn't of a Man City persuasion. I'm not expecting sympathy, but the one thing I'd say is, you're talking about blowing leagues apart. If that's what's happened, you're saying we're guilty there's an appeal ongoing, obviously. But if that's the case, that's what it took City to do to compete and I get you're saying it's not the White Knights I don't think they could have done just over time anyway though they just had to fast forward on it I think the problem is and you're right, the rules I'm open this thing, if they get a million points deducted, whatever it is it won't happen, clearly, but it would be great if the Premier League looked at it I'm looking at your team, Cairn who let me down yesterday but in general they're brilliant aren't they, but imagine they do really well I know your team gets picked apart anyway but Brighton are a real example aren't they of a team on the up building good managing and somehow managing I think sorry for interrupting the point that we're making is everyone looks at Brighton and Brentford now these great models we all want to follow them but realistically it's going to be tough for Brighton or Brentford to ever win a Premier League and it always has been let's not kid ourselves that absolutely anybody could win leagues in the past but you as the financial guy we're speaking as supporters and fans and we've all got our own teams, Allegions you can't help but have that little bit of bias what do you think would be a good way for the Premier League to almost be run to give an opportunity that it wasn't just the clubs with the most money have got the greatest chance of winning do you think we need does Everton Baz is a perfect example and Sheamus is here of Everton When you look at all the clubs sat here, is it the big six, is it?

34:53Is it the big six in Everton here, basically? Yeah, OK. Big seven. The rich. Big seven. OK, so if you're an Everton supporter, where's your hope in the future that you could ever see your team win a league title? Is it actually impossible with the rules right now, virtually? I know someone's going to say Leicester, but you know where I'm coming from. Well, look at them now as well. Well, after Leicester, the Premier League changed the rules under pressure from the big six to allow them to have more money to prevent another Leicester. So, so. More money in terms of the TV money. That's right. They changed the way because it used to be that the international TV rights, which are now worth more than the domestic rights, they were split evenly between all 20 clubs.

35:37And the reason for that was when the Premier League started, you were losing money on the on the international rights. So the big clubs said, well, we'd rather take 1 20th of the losses rather than a bigger share. Now that the international rights have grown, more of the international rights are going to the bigger clubs. And there's a case for saying that. Liverpool are a fantastic brand, as are Manchester United and Chelsea and Arsenal and City and so on. I've got no issue with that. But that's the direction of travel. What you want is a system which does two things. First of all, it allows the aspirational clubs, the likes of Villa and Newcastle and potentially Forrest and Everton and so on to have a chance.

36:14And for that, they need to be able to be given money. So what I would say is that you set a ceiling on how much you can spend on players. And let's say that that's going to be the average of the top three clubs from the last three seasons. And if you've got a club that doesn't have that amount of money, what the owner has to do is that they have to set that money aside. You set it into an escrow bank account. And if things go wrong with the owner, or if the owner wakes up in a bad mood, that money is protected so the club doesn't run the risk of going into administration and that money can be drawn down to pay the wages and to allow the club to descend slowly and it does mean that the aspirational clubs now have a chance.

36:54The reason why Newcastle cannot do a City or a Chelsea is because the rules preclude it and there is so much money now in the Champions League. you could get 150 million euros from winning the Champions League this season from TV money alone. That's before you take into account gate receipts and bonuses and so on. Well, if you've got 150 million euro head start over Newcastle or Villa or Everton, then you're going to sign the better players. The way you've explained that seems so simple. I mean, you just don't want to put money in a bank account. That's what it seems to me. You set the money aside.

37:31So the owner has to have the money in the first place. Are the other clubs besides the so-called Big Six or the big clubs in the Premier League, are the other clubs fighting for that? No. Why? Because if you're Tony Bloom, Tony Bloom at Brighton, he's put£400 million into Brighton. But he's not a multi-multi-billionaire. So Brighton stay in their lane and they try to be smarter rather than spend bigger. So if you're a club that's just been promoted, you can still sign. You can get a couple of decent players who otherwise might end up in Chelsea's Carabao Cup squad. So for the purposes of going down that particular route, it actually, the smaller clubs, they have the owners that can't afford to put the money in.

38:14The bigger clubs, the big six don't want the competition, so they wouldn't vote against it. And you need 14 votes. What we need is a commissioner of football in exactly the same way that you have a commissioner of the NFL or the NBA in America. and they're completely independent of the clubs because Richard Masters has got an impossible job. He's got to try to get 20 people who are all doing the right thing, whether it's Brentford or whether it's Hull or whether it's Manchester United, they're all doing the right thing for their clubs but not for the benefit of football. Our supporters sat here, what Kieran's just explained, would you all accept that?

38:49Yeah. In terms of a football club couldn't be... It's not going to be ruined. just not going to be taken to bankruptcy. And no-one is just putting his money there in a bank account and it does give an opportunity for other teams to come in. As football fans, would we accept them? Look at Chelsea, with no disrespect. When we were growing up and stuffed Chelsea, they were in the second division and then up and down with the City. Look at those two clubs and what they've done since they got that investment. You were right. There's always been clubs who spent them, of course, but it was generally wealthy owners or attendances, wasn't it?

39:29The disparity wasn't there. Now, there's no dream. There was always the hope, well, if someone with a bit more money buys us, we can maybe join in with that. But you can't do that now, like Kieran's just explained. And I think you'd need, based on what Kieran said, eventually you're going to, we talk about the spending in terms of players, but then you're going to have to eventually cap salaries. I don't think the PFA will be down for that in terms of, if you limit the amount of spending, then you're going to have to cap the amount you can pay players. and also you need alignment from the rest of European football because I remember when the Premier League introduced we're going to close the transfer window at the end of August.

40:02Now, other countries were just like, we're not going to do that as well. It puts the league at a disadvantage. So to do that, to bring those type of rules into the Premier League, the other clubs in Europe and the other big European leagues are also going to have to align with that and they're not going to go for that because the Premier League set up so differently. That's the thing now, isn't it? What's this fair land of milk and honey we're looking towards? Because any league in any country at any level, there's a level of it not being a level playing field, isn't there? I mean, I go and watch Marine when I don't go and watch Liverpool.

40:29And Marina, part-time, and they play teams in their league who are full-time. That's not fair, is it? But they just have to cop for it. Look at the answer in Madrid as well. I think the mistake we're making, though, is that everyone seems to think that the intention of these rules was just to stop clubs basically going bump. And I don't think that's right. I don't think that's right at all. You still look at the likes of Berry, Wig and Sheffield Wednesday. They all haven't... Oh, Berry basically had to reform. You look at Bolton as well. So many of these clubs, and I know they're lower down, but similar rules exist in the EFL, I think I'm right in saying.

40:59And I don't think they're fit for purpose at all. So with these rules, Keiran, basically the big clubs making sure they were always going to be the big clubs. The aim is to preserve the status quo. In terms of Champions League places, six into four doesn't go. So therefore the last thing you want is that six into four through Villa getting rich owners. You don't want 6-4 into 4 become 8-4 as far as the big clubs are concerned. So the rules were introduced. And if you listen to UEFA, and UEFA's rules, you're absolutely right, is something which you've got to comply with as well. You read the rules.

41:33The aim there is not to create a level playing field. It's to try to take off some of the excesses. But it does stop those clubs who have aspirational and ambitious owners from being able to catapult their clubs into the next step in exactly the way that we've seen at Chelsea, that we've seen at Manchester City, that we've seen at PSG and so on. And those days are now behind us because Villa and Newcastle, they're on the wrong side of history. History changed in 2013 when the rules really crystallised.

42:10OK, we'll just move on slightly from here, Kieran, and something I just want to read you here from a report by the football regulator about the state of the game. And the majority of clubs in the English football pyramid are living on the edge of financial disaster. There are reports that 94 % of teams in England's top five leagues made a loss in the 25-26 season. And more than 60 % of EFL and National League clubs are technically insolvent. Yeah, they're scary numbers. And I think there's also, there's a case for saying that there's probably 20 or 30 clubs who, if the owner wakes up in a bad mood two days before payroll, the clubs can't pay the wages.

42:58So they've got very little cash. The clubs are losing money. At the same time, we came through COVID. And remember, we were told we were going to lose 20 clubs during COVID due to the financial crisis. We managed to bumble our way through. But what I've seen, and I'm a nerd and I've got a spreadsheet for every club and I look at the losses and so on. You look the tape. Absolutely. The losses are going up. So five years ago, the average losses in League One were£40 ,000 a week. They're now£120 ,000 a week. The losses in League Two are up. In the Championship, you're losing on average£400 ,000 a week.

43:34So I've got friends at Lincoln and I was saying, congratulations, you got promoted. the end of last season. I know the chief executive, Liam, pretty well. And he says, yeah, how good is it going to be in the championship? So I sent him across the spreadsheet and he turned the champagne off. It was that bad in terms of it is really tough. And I think there is a perception that we'll gamble when we're in the championship to try to get to the Premier League. But in the Premier League, what you find is that you'll make a profit for one year because all the players will have step-ups in terms of their contracts, but you might be going from 15 grand a week is the average in the championship.

44:16You might be going to 30, 35 grand a week, but the average in the Premier League is 70. So if you survive one season, the agents and the players are knocking on the chief executive's door and say, look, I'm now a proven Premier League player. I want another step up. And if you take a look at the accounts of Palace or Brighton or Brentford, they're all now losing money, even though they're supposedly successful. Brighton lost over£50 million he has£1 million a week last season and we're supposed to be the poster boys for a well-run club. On the contract one as well, that's what I would have found a big change in the last six, seven years is like, say a young lad comes through or a player comes through and they've had a good season, like you said you're stuck there in your stripes, you get offered maybe five grand more in your next contract but if you get offered that now, you'd be like, well do you know what I'm not getting it and there is about five, six other clubs, it'll just double their wage instantly and it's so hard to not spend that money on contracts because if you don't you lose a player because other clubs are more than happy to give it to them.

45:17Are we too tough on owners? I know, but in terms of actually it sounds like a tough... When you're talking about the majority of clubs in our leagues, the 92, certainly in the AFL, it just feels like a grind. Isn't it constantly trying to make ends meet and keep the club going? Most owners are absolutely brilliant because they're doing it for the love of the community. They're doing it because they might be a fan of the club and so on. And we talk about sustainability. None of us want sustainable football. It's a bit like me saying I want to go to the gym and lose three stone. I can talk it, but I can't walk it.

45:55If you take a look at the most sustainable football club over the last 15 years was Newcastle United under Mike Ashley. You find me a single Newcastle United fan who's got a good word to say about Mike Ashley. He ran it as a business. They hated him for it because there was no ambition. We love football because we want to see our teams win. And in order to see teams win, you've got to invest in players, you've got to invest in infrastructure, and that means you're going to lose money. It kind of comes back to the City point at the start in terms of the attitude of the fans and not really giving a shit about what people say about them because ultimately, deep down, fans want to win.

46:28Wherever that money comes from, and I think that we would all be right in saying that we don't want state ownership of our football clubs, and I'd be the same at Spurs, but fans want to win. That's all what it comes down to at the end of the day. It's weird being a Spurs fan in this conversation because we've done things so right for such a long time and it's massively hamstrung us whereas now the kind of magnifying glasses on Spurs from outside being able to spend this money in the summer and where's it all come from and all this kind of stuff and it's not fair and we exist in this weird space in the big six where people don't think that we should be in it and the rules massively benefit us when actually we have done things the right way for such a long time and it's kind of hamstrung us and held us back when we had our best teams and we're now playing catch-up.

47:09So it's just the whole thing is a bit of, it's just a mess. Do you wish there'd be a little bit more skullduggery from Daniel Levy then? Is that what you're saying? If you could swap now, so Tottenham done what City did and City do what Tottenham did for the last 15 years, would you do it? Probably, yeah, of course it would. Football makes hypocrites out of everyone, doesn't it? People want to win at the end of the day and if you've seen your team win absolutely everything there is to possibly win, of course you would swap that. People would be lying if they said they wouldn't. I mean, I feel like we could move into a place now where we're never going to do what you did, ever.

47:39The league has gone way kind of past that, but the owners are finally starting to put their hands in their pockets a little bit more. I do think that was more out of the threat, though, of this, whatever happened over the last couple of seasons can never happen again. And then that's where I have frustrations with the people that run the football club, that it wasn't on the basis of ambition. It's more like, OK, let's protect ourselves as best as possible. But, yeah, of course I would. You know all this really depressing stuff, that's out at the moment, Kieran. I feel as though football fans have a conversation, certainly me and my mates have it all the time, of is the bubble going to burst?

48:11We constantly have that conversation. People will talk about Serie A and say what that used to be and what it is now. Do you think that could happen to the Premier League? Because one thing about the regulator and the regulator coming out all big balls and saying that we'll take on City forever and all that, well, our clubs are going to pay for the regulator, aren't they? So it's like this shitty circle. And where does it end? I don't think the bubble will burst because there's a certain case of saying it's too big to fail. It's also too popular. Yes, yes, we've seen what's happened in Syria, but Syria was always municipal.

48:48I used to go and watch Channel 4's Football Italia and so on. But the viewing figures and what Channel 4 paid for those rights was next to nothing. There are too many vested interests in football. And now that it is owned by billionaires, you're not going to get 15 billionaires, wake up one morning, get onto a WhatsApp group together and say, we're all out of football. Because there'll be the other five saying, well, this is our opportunity. But did they not all get together in the middle of the night and try and take us into the Super League? Well, six of them did. And then two of them did with Project Big Picture, which was even worse.

49:21That was Project Big Picture. You ended up with six clubs, in effect, being able to dictate to the other six clubs the rules of all football in the country. We had that as an opportunity in Super League on an international basis. We've just seen FIFA trying to do this. Because we've got three zeros more than we were 20 or 30 years ago, you've got people with a different mindset. I will support my football team till I die, as will you, as will everybody. Even Luke. Luke seems to now want to do all 92 clubs. That's the dream of a fan, isn't it? That's his new YouTube channel, isn't it? And so on.

50:00But you've got that indelible part of your football club of being part. We will never give up on our football clubs. The owners will come and go. We won't let that bubble burst as fans. It's too important to us. Kieran, are there any other current clubs that could be in trouble soon?

50:17Yes, yes, there are. I mean, Leicester are a mess at present. And I think we hinted at Leicester the last time we were on the show together. So I'm worried about them. I was worried about Wolves, but I think they're coming out of it now. There's always a danger when a club is losing money that what we've had in football for the last sort of five to ten years is what we've referred to as the find a bigger fool theory. In the sense that if a club's losing money, there's somebody that's good at selling phones. There's somebody good at selling electrical devices who thinks that they can turn that football club around.

50:54And that's why we've still got the 92, whereas we've lost clubs in rugby. We've lost clubs in rugby league as well. We've lost clubs in basketball because there's not that interest. Whilst the level of interest in football is maintained, I think the game will survive because it is too much part of the social fabric of this country for it to fail. But, yeah, there's some clubs, and I don't want to name them, where wages haven't been paid. And this includes some clubs which are now in the Premier League where the payroll was within three hours of failing. And then the owner reluctantly decided to put the money.

51:30But that report, 17 clubs, I think it was, don't have enough money to survive 30 days, is a sign of the dependency upon owner goodwill is perhaps very, very concerning.

52:27A-Cast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. I want to ask you then about the football regulator. And it's been spoken about for a long time. People have always said they want it. We need a football independent, you know, football regulator. Whether I've not read enough about it, I'm not quite sure exactly what it is, what he's supposed to do. What is it? And do clubs actually want it or are clubs against it? The Premier League to me seems like they're against it. They didn't want this football regularly because it's more of a government appointment. Is that right?

53:06Well, it came about following what we saw at Bury and then some of the problems that we had with football and, of course, Super League. So initially it was Boris Johnson said, right, we're going to have... Well, that's not a good start, is it? So we had the fan-led review and that was held by Dame Tracey Crouch. And she's a Spurs fan, but she is straight, straight down the line. And the recommendation was that we had an independent regulator because of the failure of the Premier League to regulate itself and the failure of the Premier League to come up with a decent enough offer to the EFL to redistribute the money in a slightly, slightly more generous way.

53:42So we've been through the Rishi Sunak government. They proposed it. Then there was a change of government, the Labour government. It's very, very narrow focus. So what the regulator does is, first of all, we've got a beefed-up owners and directors test. So we can now force owners to sell, and we can make it more difficult for wrong-uns to come into the game because we've got statutory backing. Secondly, there's got to be fan consultation on things such as changing the colour of the shirt. You'd have to be an idiot to want that as an owner, but there's idiots who are owners. So you've got a Neville of Salford?

54:27Stopping clubs from moving. So people say, well, that would never happen. It happens in the United States. So what happens if the Irish government said to the Glazers and Jim Ratcliffe, we will give you a 100 ,000-seater stadium in Dublin and Manchester United can play all their games there? It's still Manchester United. and we've got English clubs playing in the Scottish League and so on. So it's to stop that. MK Don's, basically. Yeah, the MK Don's situation. So it's there to protect the things which we hold so important to us as fans. And then there's the issue of the redistribution. David Cogan is a TV man.

55:11He negotiated the Sky deal with the Premier League. So that's his background and that's his focus. The other people at the regulator, I mean, Richard Monks, who's the chief executive, he comes from a regulatory background and they don't want clubs to fail. They're going to have a licensing system. And what they're doing is that they've got a series of case managers. So they've got people who will look after eight or nine clubs and they'll go around on a monthly basis and say, have you got a budget? You know, simple thing. The number of clubs that I've seen that have got no level of professionalism in the offices.

55:47and if you run a club in an amateur way, you run the risk of going bust. So they're simply going to say, this is what we recommend you do. You put together a budget, you look after cash flow. You then have sort of catastrophe planning. What happens if you get relegated? We'll survive. Well, how many of the players have got relegation contracts? Oh, I don't know. If you don't know that and you're running the club, then you're asking for trouble. What happens if the owner leaves? What happens if we have another COVID? Have you done this type of planning, which you should do if you want to run a successful business.

56:17So they're just trying to encourage best practice. OK, the last topic we want to get on to is the cost for fans. And, Gareth, I think this is something you've mentioned a lot in terms of talking primarily about season ticket holders and almost feeling short-changed, even though you're the ones who, you know, guarantee your tickets all season. And there's different issues at different clubs. You know, Manchester United have got issues at the moment as well. Kieran, can you talk to us about the cost of being a football fan in this day and age and why specifically that's a worry for season ticket holders?

56:51Yeah, one of the metrics which I use, I do this for every club, is what we call the yield per fan. How much physical cash is the club getting per fan per match? Now, when it comes to season ticket holders, I sign up for 19 matches and I pay for 19 matches and it costs me, I think it costs me about 33 quid a match. And for that, I get free travel to and from. I think I get a really good deal. But again, we have to look at the bigger clubs. The bigger clubs are global brands. They've got hundreds of thousands of people who want to be them. Season ticket holders have outlived their usefulness to those clubs because you can replace them.

57:31And if you were to say to a fan, you can only go to two matches a season, what are you going to do? First of all, you're going to pay more for your ticket. Secondly, you're more likely to go to the megastore. Thirdly, you're going to get there earlier because it's a match day experience, so they're going to be spending more in the stadium. So that's the direction of travel that the clubs have moved from. If we take a look at what's happened at Anfield, they've moved from a, what, 44 ,000, 45 ,000 capacity stadium to 61 ,000. No more season tickets. It's all gone to the commercials. It's all gone to the hospitality.

57:59It's all gone for the individual match day. And that's meant that Liverpool can extract more and more money from people. So in the world of the new financial rules, where effectively for every£100 extra you bring in, you can spend£85 on players, what the clubs are saying to you and us as fans, yeah, we put up the season ticket, but we're going to benefit. It's in our interests. They don't want the season ticket holders. So they're being turfed out or they're being moved to another part of the ground because those boys and girls and mums and dads and granddads and so on who have been behind the dugout at Old Trafford for 35 years paying sort of regular prices, you get turfed out to the cheap seats because we can sell that as an experience.

58:44Look, you can see the manager chewing his company, you can see the manager talking to the subject. We'll charge you£399 for that instead of you£40. And that's the way that it's going. So season ticket holders at the bigger clubs, and this isn't having a go at the bigger clubs, it's economic, you know people aren't going to turn up to watch palace versus uh palace versus hull on a tuesday night if both clubs are you know 12th and 14th and that's not an having to go at palace or anybody they're not going to be replaced by the tourists who will come in if we take a look at what's happening in the carabao cup brighton played at old trafford what three or four weeks ago it's 45 quid in the away end i'm going to going to uh going to the etihad on on wednesday and it's 17 Why is that?

59:28It's economics, it's supply and demand. And the clubs don't want to constrain themselves by having season ticket holders because they're taking tickets away from other people. Harrison, can I bring you in? Because it feels like I've seen a lot of issues online with United supporters around season tickets and how they've been treated. I've heard Gareth a lot on Liverpool. What is the situation there? It's literally just season tickets, there's no more passing tickets. you can't scan it if you can't go to a game it's completely locked if you do it if you give it to someone else you're a season ticket your membership gets pretty much blacklisted so you can't pass the ticket on no more?

1:00:07no if you do well you can probably try sometimes it works but I know there's a few lads in there who work here who've done it and been blacklisted so it's just it's impossible but it's what Kieran's saying you're selling it to the highest bidder I think it was I think it was just standard seats for the Bournemouth game 80 quid 80 quid just to go and watch us I mean it's not a match day experience is it? But then again we're talking I know it's no fun in that is it? But I just it's really weird because we're playing devil's advocate here like we're talking about how hard it is to run a football club but that's probably the easiest way they can generate money to keep to keep these clubs spending money buying players it's weird we're United because you know we've done that and our spending's pretty average in comparison to you know the rest of the league in terms of what they've done since Ineos have come in with the fans with the match day.

1:00:58But yeah, playing devil's advocate, how else are you supposed to make money? We're talking about owners going under, wearing a billion quid debt. Somehow we're still afloat, somehow we're still paying 100 million for players every summer. So yeah, I just don't know where to stand with it anymore. It's the frustration that I bring you in here, Seamus, because you played for Everton and the last, probably last few years of your time there, a lot was made about, you know, the core fan base really helping Everton to stay in the division, especially those last few years at Goodison Park. And that's the frustration, isn't it?

1:01:34We're losing that core support and it's the day trip is the out of town. And Azulison, they support the club, they travel as well, you know, they pay a lot of money to come and watch, you know, they still support your club. but it's almost that feeling of not that core support. And when times are tough, that's that support that's going to get you across the line, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. And especially in the city of Liverpool, the locals absolutely... And I said this a lot when we were going through tough times, like you all here love your football clubs, but when you see the people on the street, it's not just a game for them.

1:02:13And I know I've said this before, it's not just a game for them. it is like going back years ago you'd work Monday to Friday and your release was going to the game to support your team but it's the same in Liverpool they work so hard they talk about it all week and then it's going to the game so you're talking about United like pricing people out of it it's really sad I think and I know it's a money making game and that but you can't forget that the core people are so important and like you said Jamie I've got mates that are United fans got mates that are Everton fans long before I was connected with Everton from back home.

1:02:48They travel and support and live and breathe every result too. So the locals are so important but of course you need people coming from everywhere to watch the games but when we were going through tough times that's what I used and I wasn't making it up it was I'm seeing the people in the street they care for this football club and Goodison Park was full of 40 ,000 people that cared for their football club so you just want that understood from above the people that are making these decisions to know that it is the fans' life. It's all your life. And I know you're getting a bit of stick, but you're saying that it's not going to change your experience and I get that a little bit because you love Manchester City and you love going to the game and you've had your good times and you're getting a lot of stick and I get it.

1:03:30But for you, you're still going to go there and support your team, Luke. Just quickly, because Everton have obviously moved, haven't they? So my season ticket's gone up£350 for almost like a third of what I was paying at Goodison on top of it. It hasn't been any better. The grand's lovely, but it needs stuff done on it and things like that. But when we had a meeting with the club, because of what we do, because they were putting prices up again this summer, the thing they always say to you is, don't you want better players? And you say, well, yeah. But you've got to pay more then, because the way the rules are now.

1:04:02Do they actually say that to you like that? How do you want us to improve? The best thing they use is where the averages in the league are. There's still 10 teams paying more than us, but the thing about it is because of the way the rules are, they're looking at revenue coming in. So like Harrison's just said there, it's an easy one for them, isn't it? We need more revenue and you're the people who are going to pay it, so off you go. My seat's not better than it was at Goodison. It's sound, but I was on the halfway line, the upper bullens at Goodison, the front row was perfect. the experience is totally different going to the new ground which is fantastic but you can't always come back to the fans just to keep rinsing and that may be like you were saying before owners who are wealthy and you were saying Jamie might want to put more money in they can't so the only other way they can go really is to us the fans and sort of squeeze and squeeze what our money we're not billionaires are we we're not millionaires you're saying 350 quid he's not paying for the player though is it do you know what I mean we're being bullshit no we're not listen That was the message they want to put out.

1:05:06If you want better players, then you'll have to pay more. But for you, you've paid that extra £350. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for your lad, £350 is a lot of money and there will be someone else that said, well, I can't. I can't, yeah. And that's sad, like, you know. It's not even a decision, is it, for some people? Some people will just say, I'll just do anything to do it and other people just don't have the decision. They can't do it. It's not there. But like you said, we've been bullshitted by these owners because, again, and I'll probably ask you, Kieran, why is football finance is so unclear. I know there's so much more information right now, but we live in a world where there's still undisclosed fees, where when you're trying to find out how much a player is being paid, it seems so murky, whereas I like American sports and every dollar is accounted for.

1:05:47You know the reason why your team can't go and get a new running back is because you've hit a limit. In football, the finances seem so murky and so unclear, purposefully for some reason. Well, there is that, but it is a competitive industry. So if you give away details and the other club doesn't, you're giving them a competitive advantage. and the clubs in the Premier League, they're competing. Manchester United and Liverpool and Chelsea and Arsenal, their competitors aren't Brighton, Brentford, Palace. Their competitors are Real Madrid, Bayern and so on. So if those clubs aren't giving away the information, why should the English clubs put that information into the public domain?

1:06:22Because it's everything. And we've got this talk about marginal gains and so on. You're giving that marginal gain against European competitors. is in the NFL, it's a closed, sealed league. So therefore, they don't have that problem. And also, because you've got the independent commissioner and you've got the owners, the owners all think like the Borg in Star Trek. They've all got this eye of mind. Whereas, in English football, you've got someone like Matthew Benham at Brentford. He's a local Brentford lad. He's been successful. He wants to do what's best for his club. The Glazers don't give a damn about Manchester United.

1:06:56It's just a means of making money for them. So you've got different philosophies and therefore you cannot get the Premier League to make a decision because you've got 20 cats which you're trying to herd at the same time. OK, guys, that's it for today's episode of The Fan Debate brought to you by Skybet. Catch you next time.

1:07:29Thank you.

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