Asking fans to help wind the cables: Picture Parlour on what it's really like to be a touring indie band in 2026

0:03Hello, and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by Music Ally, the show that both looks at the finances of the music industry, while bringing you stories from the past week in the pop business. I'm Stuart Dredge, and he's, well, he's not here this week. Steve's in Texas for seeing a lot of good bands, but seeing very little good cider. So he's in my thoughts. and I'm flying solo today, except I'm not really because I've got some guests. So today I'm joined by Catherine Eller from British band Picture Parlor, who released her debut album The Parlor last November. And we're also joined by David Martin, CEO of the Featured Artists Coalition, which is an industry body here in the UK that represents the rights and interests of music artists.

0:43So we're going to be talking about the challenges of touring, making ends meet when you're an emerging artist, even when you're assigned to a major label. and we're going to be talking about the new initiative, the UK Artist Touring Fund, that Steve and I discussed a bit last week, but David is here to give us the full details on what it is and what it can mean for artists.

1:18Right, welcome to The Price of Music. um katherine ella from picture parlor and david from the featured artists coalition thank you for being with us today thanks for having us um and great i think it's been good it's been a chance to talk about i think some of the challenges facing artists but also some of the optimistic stuff about how it can be helped so it's going to be a good conversation um but i wanted to dive straight in i guess with the origin story and i'm sorry because i know as a band you probably have to tell your origin story to every journalist you ever talk to but you actually met in an independent venue, which is quite a good grounding point for our conversation.

1:49So tell me about those, about how you met and what that place meant to you as fans, but also as artists. Hey, it's Ella from Pitch Polly here. And yeah, we met at the castle in Manchester, which is kind of a cornerstone of the music scene in Manchester in Northern Quarter. And yeah, it was an interesting one. I was basically in another band at the time and I was playing a show and Kate in mega fan style ended up coming to that show. I was in the audience right at the front with a huge sign. No, we both had the same bass player in both of our bands. And I guess back then everyone would go to the castle every week and see whoever was playing.

2:32Yeah, rhythm section problems. It's few and far between. Yeah, so we kind of, I watched Ella's show and straight afterwards I found her in the bar and was like, we need to jam together. Like, you're great. and that's kind of how it how it happened yeah that next week i think we met up we jammed and the rest was history and then yeah i went around to your flat and then i basically didn't leave for about six weeks we just kept writing and writing and getting to know each other and yeah it was a cool time but yeah the castle is still going the castle's still there we were there the other day it's as good as it was back then so get yourselves down the castle it's a funny thing isn't it because i remember like when i was at university norwich arts center was my equivalent i remember the first time i went there i was like oh my god everyone here knows each other and i don't know anyone but very quickly like wow everyone is so welcoming it is a community it's not just a place where people go and see bands it's and you said that like that you go there every week and everyone would go there every week it was it was a community it wasn't just a place yeah it's it's a huge part of the grassroots scene i suppose you know it's the same when we moved to london eventually it was we found the windmill which i'm sure we'll speak about a little bit later but all of those independent venues become kind of a lifeline for indie artists and even just like being a student and moving to a new place you know you find that sort of community and and uh it's it's your social it's your social life isn't it really yeah definitely i mean i even want to ask about the windmill because to me it's like a sort of a mythical place because steve goes there a lot and i'm out in the sticks but it feels like it's it's a place where bands don't just play once they play regularly they have residencies they have communities and they have a lot of people kind of playing with each other and but is that how you found it like when you went there was it was it kind of like community from the start for you yeah i mean when just what you said when we moved down it was this mythical place we'd heard about it from way up north and everyone who'd been there would talk about how incredible it is and we kind of didn't know where to go when we moved to london did we yeah but we knew of that one place that was the one place yeah okay i guess that's a good start so then yeah we just started going down there watching some shows uh having a few drinks and then we got chatting to tim the booker who like was so so supportive uh to us at the beginning of our journey we kind of owe him sort of everything really i mean yeah we tried to get a gig for so it took months and months and tim is one he's like gandalf he's like one of those guys that he's hard to pin down but once you kind of click he he's he's amazing and um eventually we got that gig.

5:04And then like you said, you just kind of keep going back. It's like you get sucked into this place and you can't leave because it's just so, the feeling of being there. I mean, especially when you move to a new place, you know, you're young and you're trying to find your scene. You kind of, you go to these places and you get this feeling and it's magical. And it feels like there's like-minded people there. And there's this search for something new, especially as a musician as well. You want to share what you've got. And the windmill was that perfect kind of like melting pot of just people who wanted to discover new things people who wanted to share cool stuff and it was yeah it was a it was a pivotal moment for us i think as a as a band yeah and i mean i'm always wary of quoting previous interviews but i think i read in one of your interviews that is it is it right you kind of you're playing there and you're supporting people and by the time you had your first headline gig you sold it out but there wasn't even any music out at the time is that the right kind of chronology image which is that must be an amazing feeling as a band like to be building that word of mouth purely through having played live and people liking you and coming back next time yeah i mean i think that's a testament to how incredible and how strong those venues are like you know it's it's without them no one would have known who we were at the time and like you said we didn't really have any music out um but because we played the venue so many times you've got the locals who just love music who you know every time we play a new show it would kind of feel more electric and and that's testament again to the live scene and and then it's a kind of word of mouth thing of like you've got to get to this show i mean we still we still go to the windmill now and check out new bands like there's a band called little granddad who we're huge fans of and they've kind of done a similar thing at the time i think mary in the junkyard they were doing it with us and yeah it's it's it's just really cool it's a really cool thing yeah it's funny because whenever we do the record a show normally with Steve and I'm like oh what you've done this week is I've seen Little Grandin again he's Jay he's really excited about them yeah it's it's it's a thing but I don't know it's just it's it's just really it's like magical it sounds quite like whimsical and cheesy to say but it's a magical thing to be able to go see a band like in real time develop because our first I know our first live show must have been god-awful I don't know Tim must have been stood there like oh god why have I let them play but you know by the 10th time you're kind of like oh okay we know the ropes now you know you learn your sound you learn what songs you want to play you can flip the set around and it's yeah it was great I miss it yeah the community is so loyal as well like you have people like Lou who comes down and films you know all of the emerging artists oh I've seen the videos yeah yeah and that has been so instrumental I know to so many artists with basically having a fully formatted live video on YouTube with a platform.

7:54And that's how we got a lot of our early attention from the industry and stuff. Yeah, and not having to release music because we all know it's expensive to record and release. And that's not something that you can just pull out of a hat. So to be able to have people learn the words to a song or connect with a tune and not have to release on Spotify or iTunes, that that was amazing as well so big up lou smith no definitely i mean again tell me if i got the one but i think did you your first single was independent then you signed to island and the second single came out and i know that i guess a lot of people who maybe just don't follow the industry industry thing will think right wow you're signed to a to an established label you might not be rolling in money yet but you're going to be okay you're going to be able to pay your bills focus on your craft start recording start writing the first album recording gown too and I think people tend to think right a deal is the point at which everything becomes you're sustainable you're right I know one of these is how you it's not always that story for you so I guess talk about that time like I mean signing a deal must have been very exciting how quickly was that tempered by oh Jesus we've got to pay the rent I mean yeah it felt like we got the golden ticket we couldn't believe it when we got our first email from a major label we we thought it was a scam so we were sending it around to our mates like okay who's taking the mic here um but then it turned out to be legit um and then yeah we we well we've spoken about this a lot we like we wouldn't do anything differently no no one's going to turn down the opportunity but kind of what you said, Stuart, you very quickly learn that maybe it's not the golden ticket that you imagine as a kid.

9:44You know what I mean? Um, like a common misconception, it was something that we thought too, is if you signed a major label deal, you would have like a living wage, like you'd be able to survive financially and then be able to make the music. That's not always the case. Um, and we didn't know that at the time. Yeah. So that's a common misconception, but but like Ella said you know it's it's literally like the the top of the mountain that's what you think in your head like it's a total dream you get a major label interested in you like you'd be a fool to turn it down at the time every artist's dream I think at least for us is you know to be able to focus on your project and your art full-time whilst being financially stable it felt like you kind of like hacked the system we were like this feels too good to be true um but then And yeah, you know, like what I'd say is, you know, never be afraid to ask all the questions.

10:39If you have any sort of instinct or uncertainty about something, don't feel bad or like you're nagging for asking too many questions. Because I feel like we did ask a lot of questions because obviously, you know, we wanted to make sure that we could have longevity. And, you know, you get a lot of different things thrown at you at once. and yeah it's it's kind of it's when you don't have the like background or like a financial fallback or the expertise and you're relying on a lot of you know new people who you've met to make these decisions for you it can be quite overwhelming definitely and so how how was it at time because i know i guess you were you were thinking about going off on well you know i did if you think about national tours at the time but you were also writing and recording presumably in that how how was that as as people i suppose how was that that kind of because i guess you're also thinking right got to pay the rent we've got to be able to eat we've got to find and we've got these things how how was that experience like you said it was i guess it was quite new and that you you hadn't had to budget as a band before yeah i mean you it's one of those things where you learn on the job i mean i reckon any any musician out there would agree with me that when you're growing up, you don't necessarily connect business with music.

11:58Because to me, like music was this world of rock stars and fairy tales and you romanticize it, you know, you don't realize that behind it is this kind of corporate and it's not all doom and gloom, but you know, the reality is that music's a business for a lot of people. And unfortunately, like for artists, something that we don't realize early on is that it's a business for you. You got to, you got to feed yourself, you know, you've got family that you might have to look after. You've got to keep a roof over your head. So yeah, I guess early on we didn't have that knowledge. And so when we got the major label deal, we were like sick.

12:34We'll be able to live. We can survive. We can pay the band. We'll have a crew. We can have a sound engineer, all those things that we didn't have beforehand. And it felt like the stakes were higher because we could play bigger venues and travel further. But I guess something that, and again, and I'm sure David will speak about it, this is why the FAC is so brilliant, is that there are organizations out there who can intervene and help with that. I suppose give access to that information that maybe we didn't have at the time, which is, you know, yeah, you do have to budget further down the line than what you think you might have to budget for.

13:09And, you know, the sacrifices that we had to make early on in terms of tour, touring's a huge thing. Particularly with touring, just the sheer cost of getting especially a full band and crew, sound engineer, if you have one out on the road. And yeah, what we kind of realised pretty quickly was how fast that initial advance depletes when you're salarying multiple people, you're paying for transport, van hire, accommodation, PDs, backline if you need it. it goes pretty quickly from thinking like oh my god we can you know pay rent with the deal we've got to being like how are we even going to make this next tour happen it's weird this is something we talked about with Steve last week the idea that there are some things like you say just to be able to tour you need to have the tour bus accommodation but then also like as artists you want to put on a good show you want to have the full band you want to have the and so in a way I mean is that something you've also had to face that idea of here's what we'd like to do with our live show and it's not even like necessarily stadium pyro at this point but it's not just to have the full band or obviously if you would like that but was that something you faced with it was it also the creative i guess compromises to make about how can you get out and make this work i think i mean especially as a as a rock band your usp is live shows you know that that's our thing that's what we love to do the most it's where we find we'd hope to find our audiences through live music so to uh to have to like accept that maybe the show isn't going to be what you would like it to be in terms of you know not having a sound engineer so maybe the vocals um I don't know feedback yeah feedback you know all the all those like silly things where I suppose like back in the day when we were playing the castle or gulliver's or the quarry that was just jokes like it's fun it's like it's funny it's annoying but it's fine but when you kind of like sign a deal and you have what you imagine is this toss apart where you can go out and play those shows to a because you're playing to bigger audiences and you want to put on the best show to think that you still have to sacrifice those things it was it was a shock to us because we were like oh damn like why did we sign all of our rights away like we we could have just done this ourselves you know what i mean so i'm feeling a bit good about leaving david in the background so i might bring you in now david because I guess you talk to obviously a lot of artists.

15:39Is this something you hear regularly from artists who are taking their first steps into the business? I think it came across very strongly. There's things you expect and things you don't realize until you're doing them, and then you have to make these choices. Yeah, I think there's lots that Ella and Catherine have said there that's part of the reason that we're doing the UK Artist Touring Fund. We hear these things repeatedly. and i think a couple of things that that really jump out at me is the the sort of wizard of oz element no artist is getting involved in music because they love business you know they're artists because they want to be artists and the fac exists i mean often people don't understand the fac is for all artists not just for independent artists and it's for artists at all stages of careers and often say this that people say the FAC is there to tell you how to do things we're not really we're there to show you what the landscape looks like because artists have lots of different thoughts about how they might want to operate how they might want to run their business some might want to sign to a major some might not you know so um we're there to shine a light on how the industry works not to direct people in in how to develop their careers but i will guarantee that well, I should have guaranteed.

16:59I would always guarantee that no artist, well, certainly no artist I've ever spoken to has thought, you know, I'd really like to be in the music business. I'll become an artist. You know, it doesn't work that way around. You have to retrofit all that stuff and pick up all those skills once you've decided that, you know, once you've worked out that you're an artist. And I think that's really common. I think the cost element is, is we we hear about it all the time i think we often as well in the industry we we talk about the division between live and recording but most artists don't think completely in a completely divided manner but both things are symbiotic i think similarly most music fans don't go i'm a fan of live music i hate recorded or i i hate recording music and i love live there's a symbiosis in both of those things and i think that's important when we're talking about the touring fund as well because they both feed and breed off each other um and and i think that you've touched on a couple of things there as well around i think you mentioned this in the podcast as well last week stew and there are two things that are sold in the music industry recordings and performances if you're really good at those two things you can make some money selling merchandise as well but really there's there's two core things and and in the live sector that the delivery and And the presentation of that performance, that is the product really.

18:26Yes, beer is being sold and entrance fees are being sold, et cetera. But the product is the performance. And we're trying to do a number of things with the fund. I'm sure we'll talk about it a little bit more. A couple of aims, if you like. But one of them is that presenting the music how it should be presented. So often we're hearing, particularly at a sort of, I was going to say at a certain level, is right up to quite a high level now. Everybody is compromising. That's a problem when the whole point of this is to try and present your music and grow your audience and present your art, basically, how it should be presented.

19:09So I think that's a really key part of what we're trying to do. But yeah, there's lots that Ella and Kafton have said that we hear very frequently. No, definitely. I mean, on the positive side, to cheer up, I mean, one of the things you've talked before is about the kind of community that's built up around the band. And I always, I sort of, I think twice now about when I'm saying the word fans, because that is like a one-way, it implies a one-way relationship, you're playing and they're liking it. But when you've talked about what you're doing with the WhatsApp group you've got, it's a community of people, like-minded people.

19:45But has that been something that's been the really positive sides of as you've been getting out there and playing to people and seeing them? yeah I think ultimately the community is one if not the most one of the most important things um you know we wouldn't be where we are today without having such a loyal community and yeah we you know they come to we have people that come to all of the shows that we do and it almost becomes like well I suppose a friendship like when you're seeing somebody every single night and yeah the the great yeah i think especially again on the grassroots scene you do you see the same people um and you know like even for us like some of the people who come to our shows now i met at another band's show and got talking to them and we just we clicked and they were like oh like they seem cool i'll check out their music and then now those people come to every show so it's what's great is it's it's more of a human thing and like you were saying to move away from doom and gloom.

20:45I think the idea of a community can sound wishy-washy to people. What does this community mean? What is it? But realistically, as an artist, having that direct communication with other music fans who are just like, because that's the top and bottom, right? We all just love music. We want to be there on stage or we want to be there watching someone else on stage. And to be able to have a direct line of communication through the things like you mentioned like the WhatsApp chat and hanging out after shows. Like we've had some, when we did the music venue, trust taught, we had literally some of our listeners like help us pack down.

21:21Like we had no crew. Yeah. And there'll be like, it's the radio six dads, man. Like, they'll be like, I know how to do those wires. Give me them. Give me them. I'm like, okay. And did they know how to do those wires though? Better than I do. Better than I do. That was, that was not their first rodeo. So, but yeah, it kind of grounds you a little bit when you get cynical, maybe about the corporate side of it or whatever. You play that show and you see those same people who are just genuinely there to enjoy good music and share that with each other. And yeah, it kind of reminds you why it's worth doing it if you have to make all those sacrifices that we were talking about, maybe sound quality.

22:02And I mean, we spoke when we last saw David, we were talking about a funny thing that happened to us at a show in Sheffield where we candidly couldn't afford to take a sound engineer. And we had the in-house guy who was just the bar staff because the other in-house guy had to run to another independent venue and sort them out. So we were like, okay, this will be interesting. Let's see how it goes. Halfway through the show, I just see this bloke scream like, where's the sound engineer? Like, where's he gone? like the feedback was terrible and I'm like, I can't really see anything because the lights are like, you know, the lights are in the way.

22:41I eventually see this bloke, this punter just at the sound desk, like he's, he's effed off. He's gone. He's gone. And I'm like, okay, so the sound engineer's left. That's crazy. The feedback's going crazy, but who had our back? Just a, just a radio six dad, just some bloke. He was like, let me sort it girls. Let me do it. So it's that kind of thing where like, this could have been a disaster, but actually it was funny. and in the end it was all right we were okay and now he's now he's your permanent sound man now he's he works with us every every shit now i'm joking well i'm gonna bring david back in in a minute but one thing i think that we we want to talk about and you've talked about this before is is the kind of the risks that if these challenges aren't tackled or have something done about i guess the diversity of people who who can afford to make music and tour and become professional artists because it's something that's come up in the podcast before this idea that there might be people out there who are brilliant artists or brilliant artists in the making um but especially if they're say working class they might just have to duck out because they can't afford it now or they've got difficult but and how i guess from your point of view how how big a problem is that or how big a risk is that because it's one of the exciting things about british music is that it's it's it's not always just been the kind of people for one particular community or particular part of the country?

24:02I mean, to speak candidly, you know, we recently parted ways with the label and we had to move out of London. We can't afford to be there, so that's why we're back up North. And that's the reality for working class artists. And the reason we kind of found out about the FAC is we read something that Lily Fontaine from English Teacher had said about, you know, sofa surfing, making a debut album signed to a major label deal now if that's how artists are having to cope signed to a major label what are independent artists doing what are the working class artists doing who don't have that look that me and ella had where we got that deal um you know what i mean so in that sense it's it's just it's it's totally um well it's morbid to be honest it's it's it's a morbid place at the minute to be a to be a working class artist yeah because i suppose it seems pretty impossible um if you don't have like personal wealth to fall back on then it's yeah like where is where's the money coming from to you know make it all happen or to buy the gear that you need or to hire the crew that you need and i think that's something that's become more apparent to us at this point in our journey uh you know even when you kind of remove just the finances for me it was about access to information like I'd never had anyone in my family who you know made money from art uh who understood finances and account accountancy and and you know I think it was was it Tom Robinson who did the podcast with you guys and uh he he was speaking about when when it was when he began he didn't know he needed a lawyer and you know like he just signed a bunch of deals and didn't know that was us like you know that that's the reality is you don't have that if they're not teaching you that in in the school I went to anyway so if we don't have that information or access to it we don't know that it's out there then we can't protect ourselves as working class artists and also just to know kind of like um no have that confidence to ask like we said before to ask a question to to maybe question someone who feels like they know more than you do because they work in the industry and speaking of like advice that i give is always trishy gut instinct about those kind of things never never be afraid to ask too many questions um but yeah there's a real gap in access to information it's basically what i'm saying yeah and it's interesting because i know one of the sort of the i guess the cliches i guess is people are going oh you don't need a label nowadays you can do it yourself or people who come out of a major jail might say great i've got there are certain things i can do now i can take control of things and it's a positive thing but equally like you say there's a lot of work in that jack of all trades a lot of stuff you have to understand for yourself and yeah it's about how you get access to the information to let you do that totally and that's where david comes into it really with the fac is is if we'd have if we'd have known about that maybe four or five years ago i think we would have made different decisions and like you said Stuart it's not all doom and gloom you know any job you live in your land you don't just start any job and know everything that you need to know um and it's going to be okay if you're an artist and you listen don't be afraid to become an artist just to reiterate the music industry is literally one of the best industries in the world but it wouldn't hurt for artists to maybe have a little bit more context and information going into it and that's why it's great again like with the fac amplifying the voice of artists you know like i said we wouldn't have known about the fac and learned so much if we hadn't heard lily from english teacher speaking about it or gus from alt j speaking about things so it's great for artists to just chat about it there's going to be problems in any job and there's it can it can be and i think that's the thing i think like you know particularly with artists is kind of like a pressure maybe you know internally or like from wider teams to be like you know just you know everything's going okay tell everyone everything's going okay like you don't need to share like any of these like intricate worries or details but i think we felt the most empowered when we've spoken to other artists and been honest with each other and realized okay we don't feel as isolated in our situation anymore because actually this is an industry-wide um issue and yeah definitely well a good point to bring David back in.

28:35I mean, so we did, like last week, we did talk about the UK Artist Touring Fund. So I can probably spare you doing the entire spill about it. But I guess to summarize it, it's money that's come from donations from stadium and arena gigs. An artist can apply for, is it up to£7 ,000 each? But talk to us about, I guess, what that is and how that's designed to help. Because I know it's very much, it's not about, we're going to pay for your tour and you can do all the pyro. It's very specific kind of help, isn't it? It is. And I should say this is phase one. We expect to be running this more frequently and with more funding in the future.

29:12But yes, it's open to UK residents, artists that are 18 plus and need to be releasing original music. In this phase, and I should caveat that because we know it will evolve, but in this phase, it's for headline tours with a minimum of three dates where at least 75 % of the dates are booked externally. So not self-promoted. You picked up on this last week. me booking my village hall to wrecked yeah i'm not going to do that i promise yeah so capacities of 75 up to 2000s are quite broad and the shows need to take place by october and it is a maximum of 7 000 pounds or 40 percent of the total costs of your tour and the reason for that is is firstly as you as you sort of picked up on so that people can't can't catch the loophole secondly it's to show that there's some demand and some risk in there like you know artists need to get under their very first shows but but we probably want artists to be a little bit further on in that there is they're going to go and play to an audience so they need to there needs to be some risk and somebody else taking taking um taking a a a risk on the shows and putting putting in some funding to the show so artists will need to have 60 of those costs up front um and the other reason is to trying to be efficient with the money trying to be effective with the money and trying to show that the money rather than going here's 20 grand and you fancy going and doing some live shows and there's not really a basis for it we're trying to make that money stretch as far as possible to to help artists develop careers so that's the reason that it's shaped that way i mean and it's challenging because we're trying to do four different things um we're trying to as you say allow artists to present themselves in the right way so so many artists come to us and say you know what i'm i'm used to playing a trio but i'm playing to a backing track and triggering samples because i can't afford to take somebody out with me and so firstly to present themselves right now if somebody comes and goes i want to take 75 session musicians with me yeah they might get caught in the system there a little bit they might not get through so there's that part firstly some of it's to address market failure so it's not just about new artists this is not about age this fund there's some are the plenty of artists who have been sustainable in the past will be sustainable in the future but right now there's an acute crisis in the cost of living that means ticket demand is maybe harder or it's harder to raise raise prices and their costs are much higher so we're sort of solving market failure yes we do want to get new artists out as well where they might have done some shows, it might be their second tour or, you know, and we want to, because it is really hard now, that link between building a recorded audience following and getting out on the road is breaking.

32:01It's getting harder to get out. So some of it is to develop careers as well at the earlier stage. And then the other point is getting, expanding tours, so getting out to more regions, so bringing music to audiences rather than having to make them travel, but also allowing artists to grow their footprint as well. So maybe even at the 2000 capacity and maybe you're doing Academy Music Group shows, the O2 shows and you were doing eight shows, but you're not doing, I don't know, Leicester and Brighton because you would lose four grand. Well, if we can top up that four grand, the artist is going to those two locations, those two venues get filled, Fans in those areas are able to access that music in those areas.

32:48And you're paying the supply chain because artists are paying. They're the largest, the collectively largest employers in the live sector. You'll have heard me saying this repeatedly. And artists are paying for so much. So if artists are, if the activity isn't happening, all the infrastructure in the world doesn't help. If the activity isn't happening, it's what we saw in the pandemic. Crew went off to be Amazon drivers, et cetera. so it is to stimulate that supply chain of services and personnel that rely on the activity crew technicians agents aren't paid managers aren't commissioning if art if the activity isn't actually happening we talked about lily earlier um when we took we went to parliament with lily and this point came up the mps saying okay so what are the costs for for artists and it was just it was a beautiful moment lily pulled out a little black book and opened it up and went right photographers and insurance and and listed out all this stuff that artists pay for and actually it's quite hard for the public to get their head around that it's much easier isn't it to go there's there's either a building there or there's not or it's either open or it's shut it's much harder to get into it's a little bit to the point that ella and katherine were making earlier it's much harder to get your head around the business of music and how it actually works and actually that artist is paying for that session musician that artist is paying the manager's commission is paying agents paying crew is paying front of house or not paying front of house in some cases which is one of the things that we want to solve because we want the music presented better so we're trying to do a number of things um you know trying to achieve a number of aims and and ultimately we know that it's the activity that needs to happen you know i wonder as well i mean you mentioned the idea that people don't understand any industry i wonder if there's always this lingering feeling sometimes that like i remember when people first started complaining about streaming royalties like years ago you know yes and a lot of people would always say to us well you make your money from live don't you need to worry about streaming because you make loads and there's i wonder if this lingering assumption that if you're playing live gigs to rooms full of people you're making good money from it and yet everything people were talking about now is saying actually we are probably making a loss playing this full room to people who love our music which is i think for a lot of people that's a real a shock because they still live in this world where live music is what makes the money and that's all right then i think i think especially as soon as you i think because it's such a visceral thing it's such a human thing and such an important thing towards live music and i think when you see it it's it's sort of i don't i can't remember who who said the quote but like it's music's magic isn't it really it's the it's the art the only art form that's invisible but it makes you feel incredible and i think there's something in that that so when you see a live show there's that element of it and there's these people on stage that you think wow that's amazing so there's ultimately even in you know relatively small venues people are going well you must be doing well because it looks great and it sounds great and that must be an amazing feeling so you must be doing well but even at those and the reason we've got the capacity limit set 2000 for this phase even at that level you're paying for more and more and more to present the audience with more and more and more so i think people don't quite i think you're right everybody would go well you make your money from live in the past i think people can't get their heads around that shirley manson was was there talking about the tour in the u.s and she was saying that that actually i think they did for 30 dates or 40 dates actually if they'd done 10 they would have made the same money and i think that is quite hard for people to get their head around but again on those 10 dates the band might have made the same money everybody else would have got paid everybody else would have been getting paid at the expense of the artists and the other thing i would say is the the the ability for right now in the uk the ability for artists at certain level and And again, that's why 2000 cap is there at the moment.

36:50The ability to raise ticket prices is really impeded by the economic situation in the country right now. So this double hit, if you like, of rising costs and the inability to raise tickets without impacting demand is really, really, really challenging for artists at that level. And ultimately, what we've got, in the time that the price of tickets hasn't really moved within those capacity levels. Beer has gone up. Your taxi has gone up. Everything else has gone up. But the artist is subsidizing the price of that night out by maintaining their ticket price because they're fearful of impacting demand.

37:31So these are the sorts of things that are in our mind and that we're trying to solve with what would... Well, look, Grant, I mean, just to wrap up, really. So one thing is, obviously, this is going to go out, I think, on the 17th, 18th of March-ish. So, David, is the fund going to still be open? How can I just find out more about it? Will there be future rounds? What should they do if they want to go and find out more right now? Yes. So, go to www.thefac.org forward slash UKAT fund. Everything is there. Applications close at 23, specific 2359 on the 20th of March. So, it's quite tight if people are only hearing about it now.

38:12Hopefully they're not only hearing about it now. We would say to artists, come and join the FAC and we'll keep you updated about all of this stuff. The plan is from our side, we would like to be running this. The nature of touring isn't conducive to having one round of this per year either. We would like to be running this on a regular basis. We know that the demand is there to be running this on a regular basis. And right now we've limited what we're doing as well. We don't have support tours in or festival shows, for example. As we expand that, the demand will increase. so the aim is that we'll be running hopefully at least one more round this year perhaps more it depends on the trust but we'd like to be running this much more regularly because that's really um that's really responsive and artist artist centric that's the way to do it so the plan is to be doing this much more frequently and look ultimately there's going to be a point in future where an artist is going to be funded from this and it's going to somewhere down the line be paying in at the top end and I think that's going to be you know I think that's going to be an incredible moment as well yeah it's been exciting seeing I think people like Harry Styles I mean I know Harry Styles didn't necessarily start playing in the castle but Wolf Hallows like a lot these big artists are looking at this and going actually we do want to do a bit we do see where this comes from and and maybe Harry Styles didn't start in a tiny venue but the people who are playing with Harry Styles probably did the people putting on the show so it's exciting to see that kind of payback cycle trickle down effect yeah um but i guess kathleen i mean what's happening next for picture parlor because i think you've moved to liverpool you've come out of the label deal but what's happening you've got a tour coming up is that correct uh yes in april sorry excuse me in april yeah we're going on a headline tour and we're kind of running through all the uh the budgeting and costs of that at the moment so that's been fun yeah so we got that tour which is going to be sick because we've not done a headline tour in in quite a few months really yeah so that'll be sick and then to be honest like you said being being out of the deal it feels it's kind of like that freedom that like okay we can go in any direction um so we've just been writing a lot to be honest which has felt amazing because we didn't write for for quite a while yeah um so we're just kind of building up the blocks again which is a good place to be I think yeah I think David talked about magic I mean for me I always feel like just the idea of people having that time to write a song is a wonderful thing so it's good to hear that you've kind of got that time and you're getting that even with all the other stuff you're having to do in the budgets so great well I mean thank you all so much and I think like you say David explained people can go and join the Featured Artist Coalition find out about the fund find out about the upcoming tour and yeah so thank you both for your time thanks Stuart thank you nice one thanks for having us so hopefully you enjoyed this interview I mean there's no hiding the challenges facing artists at the moment but there are also some reasons for optimism so I really appreciate Catherine Ella sharing their experience and David coming on to tell us about the scheme and how it can work normal service will resume next week with Steve fresh off the plane from Austin well I mean possibly fresh depends how it's gone but thanks very much for listening if you're enjoying the show please spread the word you can support us via Patreon as well where you can sign up to be a super fan and join us for our usual weekly lock-in where Steve and I sit down after hours and discuss some of the things we're thinking and doing as well as topics from the show.

41:37Sign up at patreon.com slash thepriceofmusic. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, we love receiving your questions, your comments, thoughts on what you've heard. Email us at thepriceofmusicpodcast at gmail.com. Till then, take care, everybody. Cheerio.

42:06Outro Music