CCO Podcast: Evonik’s Norbert Neß on Why the Company Speaks Out Against the AfD

0:01Norbert Neß: The Provoke Podcast brought to you by Provoke Media and produced by the international broadcast specialist, Marketeers.

0:25okay welcome everybody to the latest edition of our cco podcast and i am here with uh Norbert Ness, who leads strategic communications and government affairs for Evonik in Germany. And Norbert, why don't we start by you telling everybody a little bit about Evonik, because I think it's quite familiar in Europe, but maybe not in some of the other regions where we have listeners. Yeah, sure. Hi, Paul. Nice to meet you. Every child, especially in Germany and as well around Europe, knows Evonik. Evonik's name is WOS, WOS on the jersey of BVB, one of the famous soccer clubs in Europe and in Germany.

1:24Evonik was founded in 2007 and Evonik is, let's say, a conglomerate of several chemicals companies with long history, with short history, more than 100 years. the predecessors' companies were very old. Perhaps we will talk about these companies later on. And Iwonik was, let's say, connected in 2007. And the bosses, they thought about the question, we have a new name, how can we bring this new name to every child? And so they decided we sponsor a soccer club. Soccer is very important here in Germany as well as in Europe. So the name Evonik here is very, very known. I know this year was a chance that the American people also get more fun about soccer during the championships in summer.

2:27but I also know soccer is not so popular here in the United States where you live as here in Germany and Europe. Evonik is a chemicals company. We have more than 30 ,000 employees around the world, 100 sites also in the United States, in Europe, in Asia, in China and we produce specialty chemicals. So you cannot buy our products in a shop as a consumer, but Evonik products, I would say, are part of everything. So it's part of plastics, of food, of feed. Evonik is inside every product. product and that is also I think that it's a part of any chemical company because chemicals are based of most of our products we consume today.

3:28And tell us a little bit about sort of the the roots and heritage of the company and particularly you were telling me a story about sort of the the history of the company in the community there. Which community do you mean? Your headquarters. Ah, okay. First, I mentioned all the predecessor companies founded in 18-something or 19-something small companies. Today we would say startups, but also bigger companies. One very important part of Evonik's history is also the carbon, because the region where our headquarters in Essen, where I am now, is based at the heart of the carbon region. region, but you know, the mining era came to an end in 2018 here in Germany.

4:40And so this was also switched to chemical production. And we can make an own podcast perhaps next time about the interesting history of the company and the development of innovation and other interesting products. But at this point, I think it's important to mention that the predecessor companies also existed during the dark times of Germany. So we talk now about the years 1933 to 1945 during the Nazi regime. And you know, you don't know, but I want to mention that our companies, the predecessor companies, were involved in the crimes of the Nazi regime. production, arianization, processing of the precious materials that were stolen from the Jews after the program night in 1938, delivery of the pesticide Cyclone B to the SS and deployment of about 15 ,000 forced laborers between the Second World War.

6:02This is part of our history. It has nothing to do with the name of Ebonik and the employees that are today in our sites and producing chemicals and trying to make the world a better place. But it's our dark heritage and we have it in our heart, in our head. And it is also important for our doing, for our positioning today. Yeah, I think we'll circle back to that in a few minutes, because as you say, I think it's certainly relevant contextually to what I really wanted to talk to you in depth about. But before we do that, just tell me a little bit about your own background and how you came to Evonik.

6:57yeah Norbert Ness born in Cologne everybody in Germany knows the BBB and also Cologne Cathedral 54 years old married to boys one is going to become a football a soccer player, sure, Germany I started as a local journalist I think it's the best education you can get around the world, Paul you know what I mean? And after working for some years and taking pictures, writing articles about all the different issues you can see in a local scene, associations, sports, politics, my local member of parliament asked me, do you want to join my office, the German Bundestag office? And then I switched my career.

7:56In Germany, you would say I changed the site from a journalist to a political advisor that took place in 1995. I served more than 10 years for that politician. He was a member or he's a member of the Christian Democratic Party, the party of Helmut Kohl and Angela Merkel and the Chancellor Friedrich Merz today. And my boss, member of parliament, became state premier, a governor of North Rhine-Westphalia, one of the states in Germany. So I switched again to the government. I was spokesperson and head of strategic communications. It was another title, but it was the same role in the government's office, in the state premier's office.

8:49and let me calculate in 2014, Evonik asked me to join the company and then I started as a lobbyist and I'm responsible, as you mentioned, at the beginning for our governmental affairs. So I try to convince politicians about what we produce, what's important for us and all the regulation and let's say cost issues we have nowadays. And so now your role includes strategic communications and government affairs, right? And what are the sort of more conventional issues that occupy a lot of your time? I'm assuming issues around the environment and the environmental impact of your products are significant.

9:46but what are the big issues for Evonik on a day-to-day basis? Strategic communications at Evonik means, let's say, three desks. So I have just one desk in my office, but I'm responsible for three. One, we call it market communication, is the business-to-business communication. So gaining new leads, convincing new customers, the trade show issue is part of the market communication. It's advertising. It's also talking about the impact of the products in the B2B business we design and we deliver to our markets. The second desk is brand and sponsoring. So I'm also responsible for everything I mentioned at the beginning when we talked about the BVB Soccer Club Borussia Dortmund.

10:45So to bring the name and the flavor of Evonik to customers, to society, to look positively and you mentioned the environmental environmental environmental issues around the chemical industries also an issue for another podcast because chemical industry also has a long, very long history with issues like that and in Europe and Germany some regulations is named by the catastrophes of chemical plants. So, for example, Seviso is a regulation in Germany, but it's also the name of an Italian town where something happened in the 70s that was a very difficult issue. So the brand issue, second desk, I'm responsible for everything that's positive about our brand and our company.

11:49and the third desk governmental affairs, yes, indeed we have a lot of issues in regulation questions and that has always to do with let's say on one hand all the wishes around saving our world and our rivers and our forests and people should live in a very beautiful environment, beautiful and healthy environment, that's true. But on the other hand, our sites, they need energy. We produce steam that's important for our processes. We need gas to produce power for our sites. And these are issues I and my team, we talk with the European Commission in Brussels, we talk with the government in Germany and the other countries where we have our sites.

12:58Nowadays, because you asked for concrete issues, the European Commission is redesigning the European trade emission system about the CO2 emissions. that's a disadvantage in our costs versus production sites in the United States, for example, where we don't have such an ETS system, or to China or Asia, where such systems also doesn't exist. And so we try to convince politicians and decision makers to find the right balance between, for example, saving the environment and our planet, but on the other hand also to save, let's say, profit, because profit helps bringing people to work, developing new products and solving solutions to help to make the world a better place.

14:07We are just on an audio podcast, but in my background, you could see our purpose, Evonik, Leading Beyond Chemistry. And the full slogan is Leading Beyond Chemistry to improve life today and tomorrow. And that is our description of sustainability. So it's not just helping the world to make a better place in the so-called green issues. It has also to do with people and with economical topics. There's another fascinating conversation to have on that topic, I'm sure. But one of the things that sort of caught my eye when we initially connected was the fact that you also, in addition to sort of that mission statement, have your own political guiding principles.

15:13Norbert Neß: Yes, we have. So tell me a little bit about sort of how that came about, how sort of formal and structured that is, and how it operates in reality. Yeah, we have said principles, but principles first are just words. so i think it's more than words we talked about the history the history has dark sides i mentioned these sides we also have a lot of bright sides as well and other issues that is for the advertising block before or after the podcast

16:03but we talk about values that are important for us. We have our history in our heart and in our mind. And so we talk with our employees about democracy, about the values of democracy. And we have some measures. I think we could talk about these measures afterwards boards where our employees come in contact or get in touch with democracy and with the values and with the impact that such a system has for society and for people. and a lot of measures and activities. And a few years ago, the board, I'm an advisor of our board, the board decided perhaps we need a mission statement, also a political mission statement to bring on one paper, why do we do that and what do we do and what is important for us And what do we, let's say, dislike?

17:12Also, what does not help to become the world a better place in that pathological way? I mentioned it a few seconds before. One headline is from our CEO, Christian Kullmann. He says, he always says, business must act politically. So, we had times, it's not so long ago, let's talk about the 90s, for example. Here are the politicians, here are society, here are the companies, here are the state unions or whatever you mention. And everybody is in his bubble and business must act politically means if business, if companies, if company leaders, if decision makers of the industry have issues, they have to bring their issues in the political debate, in discussions.

18:08We talked about the lobby issues. I think that is advocacy work, as we know, for many decades. But it also means for us to talk and to point out why democracy is important and why we want that people fight for the values and for everything. Democracy makes the world a good place for freedom, for prosperity, for cohesion. Therefore, you need competence. So that's what we want to bring to our employees. And I think we can do it, measures. that means conviction and that means also courage so that we show and that we talk about it as we do it in that moment but we also do it in newspapers, in interviews and also in advertising around elections for example.

19:14So what interests me is that I think it's relatively easy for companies to make very vague statements about supporting democracy. But some of the activities that you've been responsible for have gone sort of beyond that sort of generic democracy is a good thing. to, for example, specific criticism of the AFD and the far right in Germany. And I think, you know, in the context of what's going on in America right now and other markets, I think it's relatively unusual in those markets to see companies going beyond the general point of democracy to some specific criticism. Tell me a little bit about that.

20:15Yeah, okay. You mentioned the AFD, the right-wing party here in Germany. I would say I'm an expert for German or European politics. I'm not an expert for the United States, so I cannot comment on that. And I think it would not be helpful to compare or to, yeah, that's not my issue. the AfD party is and that is, I quote my boss is a Nazi party again it's a Nazi party again and he also said it in a media interview I think it was the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung it's like Washington Post in the United States or Times in London he said that and we also We are also very strict with that party. Without any discussions, no AfD officials set foot on our premises.

21:19They are not received for planned visits. Normally, our doors, our sides are open for politicians from the conservatives, from the Social Democrats party, from the liberals, the Greens. the greens perhaps have the the longest way to companies from the chemical industry okay they are always invited until the last day before elections until the last day before elections to present what we do to show it i think that is one part of that what we call in our mission statement corporate political responsibility to be in contact and in the dialogue with politicians But you ask for concrete measures to fight for democracy, what I mentioned before.

22:06I have five or six examples here, and I can tell you something more about these activities. For example, sorry for the German word, the German word, Moodausbruch. Moodausbruch means outburst of courage. It's a word play in German, outburst of courage, because in German there exists, in other words, for outburst of anger. We switched it, changing one letter, to outburst of courage. And our apprentices, the young people that start their career in our site, in a laboratory or in an energy plant, whatever, not just a white-collar worker, also the blue-collar worker, they have to join these outbursts of courage days in their education.

23:02So it's two or three days, and they were in one room, and they get to know about the history of Evonik and its predecessor companies. So in the beginning of their education, they learn about that, and it's important that they know it, I think. They are not responsible for that, but they are responsible for what they do today and in the future to avoid that it would happen again. Outburst of courage. Three days. It's an education program. It's not in any curriculum from state or from government that we do it. It's a volunteer, I would say. And for us, it's important that we bring this information and the values and the meaning of democracy and what was important for the German society for the last 80 years since 1945, that they get to know that at the beginning and it's part of the education.

24:08Although I think it's very, very practically and concrete. Another example, a few years ago, the Hertie Foundation started, they called it Business Council for Democracy. And this is a project, an offer of the Hertie Foundation and the Robert Bosch Foundation's companies in Germany. Thematically, it is about the dangers to democracy in the digital space, hate speech, disinformation and conspiracy narratives. And more than 200 companies in Germany have joined this BC4D, Business Council for Democracy. More than, I think, 5 ,000 people in Germany, employees of these companies, have been trained so far.

25:00and Evonik is one of the first members of this, was one of the first members of this, in my eyes, important initiative. Because people today, and I mentioned the apprentices a few minutes before, they are more in the digital media. And I have two sons, 18 and 15. I think they never had a newspaper from paper and the father was journalist. They never had a newspaper that made of paper in their hands. They used TikTok, Snapchat, X, I think also, Facebook, Instagram, you name it. And it's important because in these networks, there are not journalists or editors like me or in former times in a newspaper newsroom that decide that is important, that is true, that is real.

25:58And so you need to learn that. And the BC4D program is especially for companies, for their employees to get more information about that. And we started this initiative with the Herchi Foundation and our member of that program. There also exists an educational program together with our soccer club BVB, Borussia Dortmund. one time in a year, young managers from IWONIK and young managers from the office of the soccer club, not the players, young managers from the office, they go to Auschwitz. So they visit the concentration camp in Poland today. I also was there during my job at the state. And it's one thing to read about it, to hear about it, to see the figures, six million Jews and other minorities that were killed by the Nazis and Germans.

27:05But on the other hand, to see that, to smell it, to feel it. And so it's important that young managers from us and young managers from the BVB office get personally in contact with this side of horror. We support, fourth example, we support debating contests for pupils. So there's one newspaper here in Germany. They invite schools and classes to debate about issues. it's a play, it's a role play, but it's also like a championship and these schools debate who has the better argument and so it's like a pyramid. So we start with many schools and at the end there's one winner and we support these debating contests of the newspaper.

28:00Not our employees, but very, very important also for society that young people learn about the power of the argument that is stronger than the power of I'm loud. Or I try to convince someone with my fist the argument is more powerful and that is part of the debating context. Critical thinking skills seem to be on the decline. So anything that helps people with critical thinking, which is a huge part of the debate process, has to be a good thing, right? Right, correct. And one of my team members is also part of the jury of this contest. So normally we have to do with difficult chemicals and difficult regulation, but she likes and appreciates every day and every time when she can go to this jury.

28:57And to be in contact with young people is always good, but to see how they are serious and how they want to try to convince someone by the argument. That is so nice and I also like it very much. We have another format that is my fifth example. We call it, perhaps it sounds a little bit funny in English ears, meet a Jew. It has to do with our history, because I mentioned the killed Jews during the Nazi regime. And there do not live so many Jews in Germany since these dark age times. And me the Jew means I have a colleague also in my team and some other people that are Jews, Jews, rather religious, in our company, they offer teams sessions, digital sessions, where they talk about their religion, about the rituals, about their history.

30:07Unfortunately, there do not exist so many synagogues. I'm not quite sure about the word is correct. The Church of the Jews. Synagogues. The synagogues, they do not unfortunately exist so much anymore in Germany because they were destroyed in the 30s, in the 1930s. But you have no cross, you have the David star and you have also rituals. And it's programming our company, Meet a Jew, I'm sorry for that headline, that we offer information. And I think information is always the beginning of understanding. And I think it's a circle. We talk about debating. We talk about the outburst of courage. And everything starts with understanding, understanding an argument, but also understanding another person when I'm talking to him or to her.

31:05And the last example of what we do, it's a highlight in my eyes. I mentioned my second desk responsible for brand and sponsoring. And so I'm also responsible for the, let's say, for the big advertising campaigns we do. And we did such a campaign, for example, before the last federal election here in Germany in February 2025. So in front of our sites, when our workers come to their office or to the laboratory, we had posters. Go and vote. There was no vote for this party or vote for this person, but go and use your democratical right. And we put the posters in front of our sites. But we also put this advertising, for example, in our intranet so that the white-collar colleagues, when they start their computer, normally you have such advertising like virus and don't do that.

32:25and attention hackers are on the way. But some weeks before the federal election, we made that campaign go and vote. And I think that is also part of this, what I mentioned, corporate political responsibility to encourage our employees. You can vote, go vote. And we also had one, I think it's not just a funny poster we created. And we also put it in front of the BVB stadium in Dortmund one day before the election. Normally you have 80 ,000 people there and it's in television and it's always, it's a very big event. It's like in the United States here, NFL, when they have their last days, everybody is watching, listening.

33:20and 80 ,000 people are at the stadium. And we sponsor, we put our poster on the stadium. I will send you the picture so that you can put it into the notes or somewhere else. And we used again a wordplay. I'm sorry, I have to explain this wordplay. In Germany, we say when you are ill one morning or you have a hangover, you say, I'm making blue today. So that's in German, ich mache heute blau. I'm making blue today. I'm making blue today. Today I'm not making blue because I'm talking to you. In Germany, the political parties have colors, like in the United States. In the United States, the Democrats are, I think, blue and the Republicans are red.

34:11In Germany, the conservatives are black. The social Democrats are red. The liberals are yellow. the greens, green, and the color of the AFD is blue. And our slogan on that postover, go to the election, don't make blue. And it's a double meaning. So don't have a hangover, go and vote. That is one meaning. And the other meaning is don't vote for the blues. I think it was an elegant but also courageous way to express what we stand for. Okay. Let's just put this in context a little bit. You mentioned, for example, that on one of the initiatives, there are now a couple of hundred companies that are involved in this.

35:04And I know Evonik is not the only company in Germany that has taken a stand like this, But I also have the impression that Evonik as a company and Herkuhlmann as a leader have been very prominent. So where do you see your role in this? Are you part of a coalition? Are you leading a coalition? First of all, we have our own tasks. and the own tasks come from history and come from what I mentioned, responsibility for the people that work for us. And you can also say for the markets and free society, for example, has better markets than a association that is not free as here. I wouldn't be so arrogant to say we want to be the leader, but I do register that when our boss gives or gave an interview that in many times he's let's say he's a frontrunner so he starts with the position and with the thesis also yes we have a leadership role and sometimes we want to set trends and we don't ask for a permit anywhere we do it like the Don't Make Blue Today, the wordplay.

36:38And I mentioned the Hurti Foundation. There exists some kind of coalition, let's say, of companies that are convinced as us about and fighting, about doing and fighting for the right issues. in germany and europe i think that doesn't exist some that doesn't exist some kind of such a network of that and sure you have elections like the federal election in germany february 25 or the european election one year before in spring 24 or in september 26 the state elections here in germany in some eastern Germany states. And I think these are states where coalitions and networks find together. But we are not the leader that calls everybody, let's do that.

37:45perhaps after the September election and nobody knows today what comes out there. We have some sad expectations, but nobody knows it at the moment. Perhaps after that, you will see and perhaps it takes again place that companies come together and that society says, okay, democracy is perhaps it's not the best form we have. I quote Churchill now, but there exists no other one. Yeah. I think at the last election, the AFD ended up with about 18 or 19 % of the vote. That means surely that among your stakeholders, among your employees, for example, There must be AFD supporters. What do they say about this activity and how do you respond to them?

38:49Yeah, I'm also quite sure that they do exist. And you mentioned the federal figures, the results in whole Germany. we are located in the Ruhr region. The Ruhr region is a labor region. It was a coal mining region, as I mentioned, and it was also our predecessor company. Traditionally, the coal miners and other workers, the steel workers as well, SPD, Social Democratic Party, like Great Britain, Labor Party, I'm not quite sure, or Democrats in the United States. And things changed, issues changed, and the AFD tried to come on positions that the SPD, for example, but the Conservatives Party as well, they tried to explore positions these old parties had a few decades ago.

39:55and I would say here in the region, many of these workers I mentioned, they have some kind of fear for the better old times and the AFD says they don't mention the name of Social Democratic Party, but they have their positions and so I'm very sure that

40:19Norbert Neß: we have a lot of, for example, workers that say the gas is expensive, my car is expensive, my rental costs are expensive, what about the education of my children? Everything is so expensive. I take the easy solution the AFD offers and that is dangerous. You asked if we get any response. Sometimes I would say silent. Sometimes means, I mentioned our intranet and you have the option to command on some posts in the intranet. But it's very few commands we received, for example, for the campaigns I talked about. But I see that issue and you also have the discussion. I know that from other companies, they say, if we take a political position, what about the customers?

41:26Customers could say, if you work strictly and hard against one party, like the AFD, it has to do with our market. And I won't do that. My customers, they vote for the AFD. okay we are in the B2B business so it's perhaps easier for us to handle this but I think you have no choice, you have to say am I courageous or am I not courageous and we decided what we are and at the beginning we talked about our political mission statement so I would say I quote from this statement, we stand for political competence and the courage. And courage is, it's not, I think you cannot divide it or share it, but a position is a position.

42:25And so far, we have no other alternatives. But that is the policy of my company I'm working for. And I try to tell you and the audience, it starts with history, but it has to do with responsibility for today and tomorrow. But there must be an element of risk assessment that goes into this, where you think about what the consequences would be if the AFD performs better in future elections and has a bigger role in government. Is there any sort of pushback within management of people saying, why are we taking this risk? Why are we being so courageous? Yeah, we take the risk. One little answer is, but now I'm not talking for Evonik, because Eastern Germany, the AFD has much more influence there.

43:38and sometimes they have a mayor and the mayor controls the regional authority. And if you go to the county hall or city hall for permission, you have to talk to the mayor and the mayor is from the AFD party. It would be unprofessional to say, he's an AFD politician, I cannot ask for permission. So in that, I would say, structured process, you have to talk and to work with politicians, with the AFD party book. I'm not quite, they are a member of the AFD party. But then you talk to the authority. and unfortunately the authority, the mayor or the regional president, Landrat we say, so it's not the state governor but between mayor and state we have some other authorities I think that could be one solution don't collaborate with them but in some issues you have to you have to work with them, but you can stay on your way.

45:04And we want to do that. And the federal election in 2025, one and a half year ago, the debate still exists about the question you posed. What about the consequences when they could win? And when the prime minister or the chancellor, oh God, or the minister or who else is from that party. So overall. Today we have to fight. And then I mentioned my birth town, Cologne. Cologne is like an Italian city. And if there's a new situation, then we have to work with the new situation. But today, we stand and we fight. And overall, what has the impact on your reputation been from this activity? And is that the most important measure?

46:11That's a difficult question. On one hand, I mentioned activities. When you ask for measures, figures, or let's say polls, we don't have polls about that. We don't ask society, do you register that Evonik is fighting for democracy or don't you register that? We get a lot of response from civil society, from VIPs, from politics, from other businesses, also from actors, for example. So our company is good positioned beyond our own chemical industry companies bubble. So that could be also helpful for everything. And sometimes when you ask for an interview for the boss, the newspapers or the media say, yeah, sure, because we always get something.

47:21I think you talk a lot to communications officers. some people they just have their speeches and they are it's always the same and it's very very balanced and where's the pepper when you talk to a woman you always get pepper so that is not I know it was not the yes or no answer to your question but I would say it's more helpful than the opposite side and I think I think probably if all of this is driven by values, then sticking to those values may be more important than any kind of transient impact on sort of popularity. Absolutely. And when colleagues say employees, not the normal ones in the laboratory or in the site, when I read a statement at social media or in the Internet, I'm proud to work for Evonik.

48:30And they combine that with this value communication. I have no better word for that, for this democracy communication. I'm proud as well. And then I see the value and I see that you ask for a measure or for what it's worth to do that. That is worth doing that, to do that. Great. Well, thank you very much for spending the time. Obviously, I'm an admirer of what you're doing. I think it's very important. I think it's courageous. and I wish that there were more companies that took their political responsibility as seriously as Evonik does. But I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks very much for the conversation.

49:18Thank you, Paul.

49:25Norbert Neß: You've been listening to the Provoke podcast brought to you by Provoke Media and produced by the international broadcast specialist, Marketers.