A Life Built on Debt Is a Life Built on Risk

24:03I have$6 ,000 in debt on a boat loan, and then the rest of it is stuff I did when I was younger, dumb and stupid. It's like Amazon Affirm stuff. Buy now, pay later. Okay, so what I'm hearing is you said, man, life's just been coming at me. I've never heard of a boat coming at you. You know what I mean? I have.

24:25Rachel Cruze:That could be kind of scary. But you know what I mean? Yeah, that's true. But you see what I'm saying here? If I looked in the mirror, I go, man, like, yes, life has happened. There have been some emergencies, but that's not the problem. The problem is I want some stuff and I can't wait till I have the money to buy the stuff. So I'm going to borrow money from other people. And so if we can get out of that mentality, then we can get you out of this cycle. But it's going to have to start with you saying, I'm done with debt. I'm never touching this stuff again. Tried it, got burnt. I'm going to sell the boat.

24:53I'm going to work those three jobs. I'm going to live on nothing in the meantime so that I can get an emergency fund so that it's a never get into debt again insurance plan. Well, the thing about that is, so when I turned 18, my grandma had had some money she left to me. It paid for my truck and my boat. I didn't know anything on them. I bought them right out in cash. My truck broke down five years later. I had to buy another one. It was that big of a money pit had to buy another one my boat motor that i had it blew up had to buy another one i'm in my boat any and every chance i can get okay joseph joseph joseph we gotta we gotta change our language

25:35Rachel Cruze:okay you did not have to no one had a gun to your head that you had to okay you wanted to that was a want well so okay so just i'm being for real though because when there's a mentality of this thing breaks so that means I immediately and you're normal this we get calls like this all the time people this is people's mentality well there's no other option I have to go I have to go and get a car and I have to go and buy a new boat I have to no you don't you really don't I mean you'd like to yeah I mean you like you could you could get a ride from a friend you could bike like you know i'm saying like i know those are not get a canoe i know those are not realistic you can get a canoe those are not realistic i get that but the point is when you start separating needs and wants from like a very extreme degree it causes you then to say okay this is not a this is not a need i now have to make other decisions if debt is not on the table so that means i have to go buy a two thousand dollar truck that barely puts puts puts down the road but but that's what I can afford.

26:46Rachel Cruze:I don't have money for a boat, so I'm going to have to say no. I'm going to say no to myself. I can't get a boat. So there are this, you do have to filter through some of these decisions because that is what's caused you to be here. And when you go that extreme, Joseph, which it sounds extreme, but when you do, I'm telling you, every purchase you make, you're going to be thinking, do I need this? And in this point of you getting out of debt and all of it, a lot of it's going to be like, nope, I don't need it. Nope, I don't need it. and Saturdays I'm going to be working. Sundays I'm going to be working because I need to be making some extra money to pay all this stuff off.

27:18Rachel Cruze:And then once we have money, then we can start saving towards goals of things that we want because boats are not bad and trucks are not bad. But the way we've gone about them has caused a lot of stress and a paycheck to paycheck living because you have payments. Like if all those payments were freed up every month, you wouldn't be paycheck to paycheck. Yeah, what's your truck payment? My truck payment's actually, It's only$426. Okay, do me a favor. Never say only in front of a payment again, Joseph. You hear that? Because that was you justifying the payment. Yeah. You don't have that money. You're living paycheck to paycheck.

27:54Rachel Cruze:$425? That changed your life. That was just sitting in your account month to month? So we got$425 on that. What's the boat payment? The boat payment is$160 on the motor. What are the rest of those payments for all the other stuff you mentioned? um uh one of them's 60 dollars the other one's 80 dollars um and i think the other ones there's one more that's like 60 bucks okay okay so we're over 700 yeah 750 is what i have so if i gave you a 700 raise would that help you get out of this paycheck to paycheck cycle it definitely would you see where we're going with this it's time to aggressively attack the debt with no other focus you don't need to be on a boat you don't have time you're going to be working too much That's the great news.

28:38So what could you sell the boat for today? Not much. It's a piece of junk, honestly. The motor is the only thing that's worth anything, and that's because it's brand new. I'm so confused. Did you buy it as a piece of junk? So, no. I bought it in 2018 as a decent boat, and over the years, it has proven to be a piece of junk. It sounds like you destroy everything you touch. So you put a$6 ,000 motor on a piece of junk.

29:05Rachel Cruze:$10 ,000 motor. Oh, no. Joseph. See, bad, right? Not good. Would you agree? I do. Great. I'm glad we're, like, tracking. Some people, you know, you don't really track. We're tracking with Joseph. We love Joseph. I'm not trying to justify it, but at the time, at the time, I was working 60 to 80 hours a week. I was making the money. It wasn't a problem. But But life happens and you have risk in your life and suddenly it does become a problem when things change. That's what happens with debt. That's what happens with debt. Everyone's fine. Everyone can afford the house payment. They can afford the car loans.

29:47Rachel Cruze:Everything's fine until there's a job loss. Until a kid gets sick. Until whatever life happens and you've built your life on risk and it all comes tumbling down. So, Joseph, I'm excited for you. I feel a lot of work in Joseph's future. I can't wait. And I really think, Joseph, you can get out of this. Yeah, Joseph, here's the truth. When I was your age, I was$40 ,000 in consumer debt, and I wasn't even making$45 ,000 like you are. And I got out. And the way I did it was by cutting my expenses down to nothing and working two or three extra jobs. And then all that margin I created by doing that, I threw only at my smallest debt.

30:23The rest, you're going to make minimum payments. That's called the debt snowball method. Then once you get rid of all the debt, now we can focus on savings and our emergency fund. So hang on the line. I'm going to give you every dollar. It's our budgeting app. That's the one thing it does is it helps you create margin to throw at your debt, but you've got to actually do it. You've got to look at that budget every day because that's going to be your ticket to saying no to the next thing that's going to be happening to you that you had to do.

30:47Rachel Cruze:Hey, Joseph, call us back, though. We're cheering you on. If you need help through this process, we are here because I really do believe in two years your life could look so different. You're going to be a success story. Hang on the line. We're going to get you every dollar and a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. That'll give you the roadmap to getting out of this thing.

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32:46Marie is in Columbus, Ohio up next. Marie, how can we help today? Hi. Hi, and thank you for taking my call. I started listening to you guys in 2020, and by that time, I think I was in a bad situation right there. My current live-in boyfriend, who I plan to serve a 30-day notice to very soon, he ran up to my credit card, and I've been following the baby steps, And I've paid everything off except for those two credit cards. And it was actually the Baby Steps that helped me realize that those two cards have been run up. I didn't realize it at the time. And I guess I'm just looking for, I guess, a way through to figure out if there's a possibility for me to recoup my money back.

33:40Yeah. I'm paying for it because it's on my credit. Yeah. Well, was he an authorized user on your card? How did he get access? He was not an authorized user on my card. So at the time, still, we're living together, and we had a mosquito tick-free service that we were supposed to be paying for. They said they wanted to do, like, the automatic—they wanted to charge us automatically. And I was at home at the time, and so I used my credit card and gave it to them. And he said, you know, don't worry about it. I'll pay for the service. And so that's how it started. So he grabbed your credit card while he was at home, saw it on a table?

34:24What happened?

34:25Rachel Cruze:No, I gave it to them. You did it. Okay. With the promise that he was going to pay it back. Yeah. And they would be charging a card every month. It's a monthly recurring charge. And then he would, you know, pay for it. That was part of one of his bills. He was part of the household. But then what happened? You said he ran it up. Well, yeah, I didn't realize he had ran it up because I, um, he was just supposed to be paying that recurring charge. Um, and then it was in 2023 that I realized that this card had like a really big balance on it. And I was like, Hey, what are you doing? And I said, and I noticed like your payments aren't covering the charges.

35:06And he told me, don't worry about it. I got it. I've been paying it. I'm going to keep paying it. and he said, you know, like, we haven't done this before. But that was three years ago. So what happened since then with the balance? It continued to balloon.

35:24Rachel Cruze:What does the credit card statement say? Is it all this one company on this credit card? This particular one, yes. He actually ended up doing it to two, but what was on my radar was this one credit card, this one company. Okay. Well, if it truly was without your knowledge, it was unauthorized use, that's fraud. And you can call your credit card company and dispute it. No, she gave the card to the company. Do you know what I mean? From a legal perspective, she – But was there other things on this outside of that flea and tick service? That's what I'm wondering. Is he buying other stuff? Yes, and that's what I didn't realize.

35:58So he was supposed to be paying the recurring charges for the flea and tick company. But then I started looking in there when I noticed that the credit card balance had gone up. And then he started using, I saw he was using the car to pay for our car insurance. You know, like$700,$800 to pay for the car insurance.

36:17Rachel Cruze:For your own car insurance? For yours or his or both? Ours, because we were in the house together and he had two cars on the insurance. I had one car on the insurance. The insurance was another bill he was supposed to pay. I did not know he used my card to pay the insurance. And then I started seeing other transactions for like advanced auto parts and car parts this and car parts that. Okay. Maria, I have a question. Random other stuff. For the credit card statement every month, where was that being mailed to or sent to? It was being mailed to our address, our home. And you just didn't see it?

36:57Rachel Cruze:Or he would take the bill and you never saw the bill? I never saw the bill. He would take the bill because he was supposed to be paying it for the Green Nets company. And so I just didn't, I didn't think anything of it that he was taking the bill because he was supposed to be paying it. So some of this, Marie, so some of this from a legal perspective, George, correct me, but some of this, if it really was without your knowledge, I think you can flag that as fraud. But Marie, if you willingly gave your credit card over and you just have a crappy boyfriend who's not paying it, that's more on you guys.

37:26Rachel Cruze:That's not a legal standing. Especially after three years and all of a sudden you're calling the credit card companies and, hey, there's some fraudulent charges here from three years ago. Yeah, I didn't call the credit card company and say there were fraudulent charges. I noticed that I didn't say that. I went to him and said, hey, what are you doing? Like you're supposed to be paying these bills. Have you called and put a freeze on that? And it's not like I just met this. I'm sorry? Have you called and put a freeze on anything on your credit or this account or for more money not to be taken out?

37:58Well, by that time I had. So what ended up happening is. I told him what ended up happening is he just stopped paying the bill. Just period. OK. And I said, why aren't you making the payment? He said, I'm sorry, I missed the payment. And he was going off of the fact that we had done this before. I haven't just met the man. I've known him for a very long time. And he used my credit card to do other things like buy tires. And he paid the bill.

38:34Rachel Cruze:And we just kept moving. It had never been an issue. Okay. So from today where we stand, Marie, how much is on the card balance? As of right now, the card balance is$8 ,100, but that's because I paid it down. Yes. At the time, it was$10 ,900. And are you guys broken up? What's the status of the relationship? I don't consider myself to be in a relationship with him anymore, and I plan to send him with an addiction notice pretty soon. What do you mean you don't consider it? Are you guys broken up or not?

39:11It's not like a feeling. Well, I don't consider, you know, I don't identify as a single person. It's just did you guys break up or did you not? I have broken up.

39:21Rachel Cruze:He keeps saying he's in a relationship, and I can't change his thoughts. Who is he saying it to? Yeah, yeah. So, okay. So, yeah. He's in denial. He's in denial. Is his name on the lease? He loves Marie. I own the home. Okay, so there's no lease. I own the home, and he won't leave. Yeah, so that needs to be a sheriff will need to show up and evict him, correct? because this has gotten so entangled. Yes, they have to go through those proceedings. Yes, from a financial perspective, so entangled. And this is what happens when people commingle finances. When you're not married, you have no legal protection, really, on your end.

39:56Rachel Cruze:I learned that in 2020 once I started listening to you guys. Yes, so I'm so sorry. By that time, you are ready. Okay, so you've got$8 ,000 left. So, Marie, we've got to figure out, is that the only debt you have is this card? um he did the same similar thing to a the lowe's card i didn't not that card i didn't know he was using that at all okay how much is on that and um the current balance is now four thousand nine hundred dollars but he ran it up to like fifty six hundred dollars okay and outside of those two bills i have no other balances because i started with your debt snowball oh yes you said that okay perfect okay so what i would do is i would become i would investigate as much as i can calling these to credit card companies.

40:37Rachel Cruze:And in good standing of faith of what you can say, honestly, yes, these were charges I did not know about. You probably can't say about the flea tick company because you willingly gave over your credit card and he just never paid you back. And that's between you guys. But from a legal standpoint, here are charges that I did not know about. And I would try. I would see what, you know, if they can reverse any of it. I don't know if they will because it's been so many years, but it would be amazing if not. And then if it doesn't, Marie, it's, I mean, yeah, this gets chucked up to$12 ,000 of stupid tax is what we call it of just like a really hard lesson, which is so frustrating for you.

41:14Rachel Cruze:It's so frustrating for you because you've been working this plan and you've been doing it. And it's just, it may be a really not fun lesson to learn if, you know what I mean? If this is the bills that you have to end up paying, cause it's all in your name. Um, but I would cut off any, any access of any accounts from him and making sure he has no access to you financially. And yeah. And I would go on to every credit bureau's website, TransUnion, Equifax, all of them, and freeze your credit completely so that nobody can open up any accounts in your name. He didn't do it to any other card, just those two.

41:52And he hasn't done it. And it just, I don't care. As far as you know, I don't trust him.

41:57Rachel Cruze:I've already checked. No, he hasn't. I would still freeze your credit. Freeze your credit. Do not. No, I don't trust him. Who knows what he would do when he gets pissed that you evict him? I mean, uh-uh. Nope. I'm closing down every credit card account. You can still pay it off after that, but close them down, freeze your credit, and get this guy out of your life and then clean up the debt yourself. This is not going to be fun, but it'll be a lesson well learned. You'll never do this one again. No, I won't.

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43:48Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm George Camel, joined by Rachel Cruz. Open phones at 888-825-5225. So, Rachel, we recently just took a call from a lady who was going through a hard time because she's had this sort of toxic relationship. The ex is living in her house who she now has to evict. He's been using her credit cards within without her knowledge, running up 13 grand in credit card debt. And it just was a great reminder of why we tell people to not combine your life and your money before marriage.

44:22Rachel Cruze:Because some of it, it wasn't outrageous stuff, right? It was like our car insurances. We're just going to pay them together, right? It's very normal things, but when you combine your life with someone, even from a financial perspective, yeah, you set yourself up for a lot of chaos, and untangling that is exhausting, and it ends up costing you a lot of money. That's what we end up finding over and over again. Because usually the person that is the financial responsible one ends up getting the bad end of the deal, right? It's usually the one that's not great with money, ends up kind of mooching or figuring out how to like – not necessarily – I don't think they're always malicious by doing that.

44:59Rachel Cruze:It's just the way it happens. And when you're not married, yeah, there's no protection for you. And what's funny is we get a lot of flack for our advice that you should combine finances once you're married. And they all get so angry at that. They want to combine when they're not, but once they're married, they want to stay independent. I'm like, okay, so let's stay codependent while we're not married. And once we're married, we want to be independent. That is insanity. Yep. Crazy. So aside from any of like your faith background and some moral judgment on living together, it is just a really bad idea to combine your financial life, to co-sign, to add someone as an authorized user or to buy a house with someone.

45:36Rachel Cruze:Yeah, a big purchase together where both your names are on it. When you're not married, not good, not good. So much risk, so much drama, and you're assuming everything works out perfectly, and this show would not exist if everything always worked out perfectly. We wouldn't have jobs without this. Or on the other side of it when they go, well, I could handle the payment until I couldn't. Well, everything was great until I found out he was using my credit card. Yeah, and honestly, it just adds to, I think, more of the heartbreak. Because not only when you break up and you got to untangle everything, not only is it just your heart's broken, right?

46:07Rachel Cruze:Or the situation is really sad because you've been – you were obviously very close to that significant other to share finances. And when you break up, if you break up, not only are you dealing with like the heartache of just the breakup, but then you're sitting there trying to pull your credit report, right? Figure out who's on it, what debts, and what do you owe me? And then it just gets so messy. Anger and guilt and resentment. And why did I waste so many years with that person and try so hard? All to leave with this mess that I have to clean up. It just sort of makes you look in hindsight to realize how messy it was and how you didn't see it.

46:45You were too close to it.

46:46Rachel Cruze:That's right. So clearly, you guys, do not combine your finances until you are married. And when you are married, yes, we are a proponent of combining your finances, sharing a checking account. When both incomes or one income hits the household, that is the household budget. We both have a say in it when we're married. We both have opinions. We both are able to agree on this is what we're doing with our money. Because when you do that, you agree on your life at that point and where you're going. Now, there's always the asterisk. If there is a divorce coming, if there is abuse, addiction, like there are situations that you have to protect yourself 100%.

47:22Where you need to untether, have your own account.

47:24Rachel Cruze:Yes, yes, that's right. Protect yourself from this person. Yep, that's right. But for all the other marriages in the world that are just going along, I'm telling you, combine your finances. Be one in that, and it creates so much unity. Yeah. And the other thing is, you noticed she wasn't paying attention. She wasn't checking the credit card statement. That's a great point. She was just assuming that he was telling the truth. And so you've got to stay on top of this. Your money is your responsibility and nobody else's. So don't ever assume that they've got it under control. That's usually a sign that things are going south and you don't even know about it.

47:58So there's our soapbox. We are now stepping off. Although I like the height boost it gave me. Yeah.

48:03Rachel Cruze:Thanks for listening to our TED Talk. Back down to earth. All right. Karen is in Toledo up next. Karen, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi. Thank you. What's going on? So my husband and I can't decide if we can afford a new vehicle or a new TAS vehicle. for$30 ,000 to$40 ,000 just with our other expenses, our mortgage and potential other expenses with our 100-year-old home as well. All right. Walk us through this. How much money do you guys have right now saved up? So we have about$120 ,000 in our savings. Awesome. And do you guys have any debt? We have our mortgage, but no other debt. Okay. And what's your household income?

48:50So I just went part-time, so it was$180. Now it's going to be about$160. That's still a great income. Okay. So what's the argument about? This sounds all reasonable. You're going to pay cash. It's not a huge part of your world. Are you going to buy it used or brand new? Well, I previously would have bought it new, but since being married, we're probably going to get new to us, but maybe a year or two, maybe three years old. Okay. And is your husband not wanting to do this or are you? So my husband does not want to buy a vehicle. I do want to buy a vehicle just because I think we need the space.

49:26We have two small old cars. We have a 2017 and a 2014 car. Space for kids or what? We do have a new baby and then we also have a large dog. So yes. Okay. So new baby, large dog, you want more space and he thinks it's a waste of money? Is it the financial part of spending that much money, or is it the idea that you guys don't need a car at all? So he agrees we do need a car, but it's the financial aspect of it just because we live in a 100-year-old house. We're living on borrowed time with our AC furnace unit, potentially a new roof, potentially a new sewer pipe. I mean, all this is all functioning now, but it's just kind of we're on borrowed time for all these very expensive items.

50:14Rachel Cruze:Add it up. If everything hit the fan and everything went out at the exact same time, what would that cost you guys? So the sewer is probably about$15 ,000. The AC furnace, I would have to say probably about$6 ,000 to$8 ,000. And for a roof, we don't know the roof. We haven't looked into quotes because it's working well now. That's probably in the next couple of years or so. Okay. Because I'm just doing some quick math that if you guys have 120 saved, if you had an emergency fund of$40 ,000, if that was a fully funded emergency fund for you guys, I'm not sure what your household expenses are per month, but that'd be a hefty, good emergency fund.

50:51Rachel Cruze:You'd have$80 ,000 left. Let's say you spent half of that on a car, you'd have$40 ,000 left. And if everything hit the fan, I think you'd still have enough to cover all of that, right? Yes, but that's very scary to think about. And then plus, we just didn't know with having a mortgage, we still have about$130 ,000 to owe on that, if that's something we should be prioritizing over purchasing a car. Not necessarily. Yeah, I mean, buying a new car is totally acceptable in Baby Steps 4, 5, and 6, which is where you guys are. Your life is a priority. And so if you need the car for your life, because your lifestyle, you guys are doing it right.

51:27And I think having$60 ,000 still left over after covering the car and the emergencies, you're going to knock out the house fast, knowing you guys, you're going to just start throwing chunking money away at that thing after the renovations are done, repairs, the cars here. Now you've sort of freed up all the savings and money, right? Your future income? Right. That is very true. It's just, it makes us, you know, it's unnerving to think about all this potential, very expensive things that are savings just dwindling.

51:55Rachel Cruze:Yes, I hear you. But you would have enough still in savings to cover those things. And they have not happened yet. And more than likely, they'll be staggered while you can be saving money on top of that. So it's not like your savings completely stops after you buy this car. Pick it back up and save some more if you guys want. And then if you have too much in savings, you throw some at the house, right? And I would earmark each savings account. One is for the car. One is for the house stuff. That way you're not confused as to where this money's going.

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53:53John is in Richmond, Virginia up next. John, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. What's your question today? I feel like I've hit the job lottery. I'm kind of a specialist in my field, and I recently just got a humongous increase in income. My wife is also getting a raise starting in July, so we feel like we're kind of suddenly wealthy, but I'm kind of panicking because I don't know what to do, and I'm really behind on my retirement. and I'm 48 years old almost, so kind of lost as to what to do. I'm happy, but I'm nervous. Yeah, no, that's actually a good feeling, John.

54:34That tells me you're going to be very wise with this and cautious and actually use it to build wealth. If you were just like, yeah, double my income, we're going to go buy some stuff, I'd be like, all right, we've got to slow down. So walk us through this. What is your household income now? What will it be? Okay, so it's going to be$330. Fantastic. Right. Yeah. I think we're getting about$120 ,000 between the both of us increase all of a sudden.

55:03Rachel Cruze:So are you both getting increases or just one of you? Both of us. You both are. And it just happens to fall at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. My new position just started. My wife starts in July. So, you know, right there around the same time. That's great. Congratulations, John. Good for you guys. That's awesome. Where are you guys at financially? Thanks. Do you have any debt? What's that? Well, we have our mortgage. We owe$214 on our house. We do have two used car loans that are fairly recent, and that's it. That's it for debt. No credit card debt. What's the balances on the cars? Combined at$24 ,000.

55:44Okay. How much do you guys have in savings right now? $22 ,000. Okay.

55:50Rachel Cruze:Is that just liquid or is that retirement? it's liquid okay and then my retirement my retirement is very low my retirement's like 45 000 45 okay what's your wife's yeah she's her retirement's at like 340 000 or so okay so hers is okay hers is more yeah okay great so um yeah so i would make a plan to probably feel like you didn't get a raise for a hot second once it starts to get these cars paid off. So pay off the$24 ,000. And honestly, you could do it with the next paycheck. If you take your next paycheck, plus most of the savings, these car loans are knocked out and now you free up those payments for the rest of your life.

56:35Yeah, that's right. And the cars are fairly new, even though they're used. So I think they'll be fine. But yeah, so we have like, basically that leaves us with the little bit we have in our checking account and that drains our savings slash emergency fund. Yep. Yeah.

56:53Rachel Cruze:Then you'll bring it back up with the new income and have a good fully funded emergency fund. And all this hits in July. We're what? It's almost May. So that's two months. Yeah. So I would, I would throw all, I would throw your savings at this car. You'll have a little bit left on it, on one of them and keep a thousand dollars in there. and go ahead and pay everything off. And then once July hits, you guys start really stocking away some money for a fully funded emergency fund. And then beyond that, John, you just go down the baby steps. You guys need to invest 15 % of your income into retirement through all the extra you can at the house.

57:29Rachel Cruze:Sure. Okay. And have some fun in there too, right? If you guys want to take a trip or something, that's okay. But have an aggressive goal to pay off this house. I mean, if you guys said, hey, what if we did this in two years, right? Like a pretty aggressive way, because once the house is paid off and everything, then to your point about retirement, all that's left is to stack money in those retirement accounts and then even beyond that because you guys will probably max out a lot of your Roths and your 401K even. Yeah, because you guys, 15 % of 330 is almost 50 grand. So that's over 4 grand a month you guys are going to be putting away, and that's without any employer match.

58:07So I did the math for you, John. My company won't start letting me have a retirement for a year, and my job just now started. So I'm kind of like, well, do I start, like, talk to a financial advisor, get money into an IRA? You can still do a backdoor Roth IRA.

58:24Rachel Cruze:Yeah, I would do the Roth. And then I would just put some money, yeah, I would sit down with a financial advisor. I'd probably open up, like, an index fund or something and just throw some money in investing. It may not be retirement specific, but I would get in that habit of 15 % of my income being invested. And then once the 401k is available next year, then maybe turn down the index fund and put the rest in the 401k because you'll have great tax benefits with that. But even in the meantime, 15 grand would fully fund two backdoor Roth IRAs for you and your spouse. Right. You still have the options even before you can contribute to the employer plan.

59:02Yeah. So let's walk through this real quick for you, John. How much money would you free up? How much could you throw if you didn't have those car payments? How much could you set aside every month in savings?

59:13Rachel Cruze:With the new income? Well, I have a daughter that's starting college. My new income is$330 ,000. The college expects us to pay about$30 ,000 a year for my daughter. And we don't want to take out loans for it. We want to pay it. So my bills are going to be like$12 ,000 a month on average with all that going on. That's without the car payments or with? That's without car payments. Okay. Great. But you're still going to be taking home like$20 ,000 a month. Yes. Okay. So you still have$8 ,000 to put away when all's said and done, if you do it right. Are we taking home$8 ,000? How much are we taking home a month?

59:55Because I have like my... $20 ,000 a month is$240 ,000. My net. So if you're making$330 ,000, your after-tax income? My after-tax income is going to be about$16.8 per month, I think. And that's without your wife? Yeah, it's with my wife. Okay. That feels low. That feels low. I'm a W-2 employee. I mean, federal taxes, state, Social Security, all that stuff is like$75 a year off my$225 that I'm making, or will be making. Yeah, but you're not paying$130 ,000 a year in that out of your$330 ,000. That's what it amounts to is you taking home$200 ,000. So I would look into that. This is about 60%. It might be a little bit more after all of your deductions, 401K, all of that stuff is hitting.

1:00:41But either way, you're going to have some margin of$4 ,000 to$5 ,000 a month to sock away, which means your emergency fund is going to get built up quick. Then we'll be investing 15%. So let's even say you're 49 % and you start investing a little over$4 ,000 a month. between you and your wife's retirement as sort of the base nest egg, if you just do that from 49 to 62, you guys would have about$2.7 million at 62. All right. When you're 62. I don't know how old she is. I assume younger. Is that a fair assumption? You're older than me. Oh,

1:01:12Rachel Cruze:what for the older lady, John? So she's 63, you're 62, you get$2.7 million. And then you guys can decide do we want to keep working or not. You probably will have the option by then. And with a paid off house at that point. And that's without you increasing investing. Or making more money, which at this point, you guys are only going to make more money in your careers if you keep this up. Yeah. Okay. So I hope that's encouraging to you. If you do this right and you stay out of debt, pay off the mortgage, follow these baby steps, you guys are going to be just fine. And when the daughter's out of college, that frees up money in four years.

1:01:41Rachel Cruze:You know what I mean? That's the tuition. That'll free up a lot of money. That's like$2 ,500 a month. You can go on a vacation every month, John. Sounds good, George. You're doing great. Don't beat yourself up, John, for the past. You guys are crushing it. And yeah, and the caution is very fair because as you run the numbers, you know, you look and it's like, yeah, it's not a million bucks. You know what I mean? Like it goes fast if you're not careful. That's why we get people that make$300 ,000 and they're still living paycheck to paycheck, right? It's like that's what ends up happening. So the intentionality is key.

1:02:13Rachel Cruze:I think writing out the numbers, you and your wife seeing it, I think having a great financial planner on board, especially with some of this retirement stuff that's going to be picking up is really wise. And yeah, I think if you guys just plan it out month to month, you're just, you know, you have that level of intentionality, have a goal for paying off the house, all of that lined up, you're going to do great. You really will. Great. Thanks. Awesome. You got this, man. Thanks, John, for the call. Love a call like that. That's a fun problem to have. Our income doubled and I want to be wise with it.

1:02:42Rachel Cruze:Yes. And the truth is, I mean,$214 ,000 left in the mortgage, if they just take the daughter's college money when she's done, they just throw that at the mortgage. Right, right, right. Plus some of the extra margin they have, they're done in a couple of years. Yeah, that's right. Before they're 60, they're going to have a paid for house, maxing out retirement accounts, millionaires. How aggressive. I said two years. That was too aggressive. I like, you know. I love that spirit. Why not go big, right? Rachel goes big and she goes home. She does it all.

1:03:30So

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1:04:17And you can add your Ramsey BeWear debit card to Apple Pay and tap to check out. See, a lot of banks leverage convenience to make it easier to go into debt, but Fairwinds offers convenience to help you stay in control. It's a huge difference. That's banking that actually supports the baby steps instead of working against them. So if you want to bank someplace that's both faster and wiser, check out Fairwinds. Go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey. That's fairwinds.org slash Ramsey, insured by the NCUA.

1:04:45Thank you.

1:05:14much more than buffets and deck parties, which I am personally excited about those things. But you get to hang out with Dave and all of us Ramsey personalities for seven days, hear new teachings on wealth building, join the world's largest debt-free scream, watch live episodes of your favorite shows on stage, and so many more surprises. Who knows? It's so fun.

1:05:33Rachel Cruze:It's a fun week. Yeah. I mean, ever since the last one, I was like, I was kind of riding a camp high after. Yes. Like, that was something special. I know. It was. It was such a great week. The people working on the cruise were like, who are these people? They're all so kind. Yes, they kept saying that. They're like, this is the nicest week of people we've ever had. Yeah. And there's no strangers because you have like-minded people all in one place. Well, not to make anyone uncomfortable, but everyone's like, yeah, they'll be standing in line for the buffet and be like, how much debt have you paid off?

1:05:58Rachel Cruze:You know? Yes. And they just talk about things that you would never, ever probably share. But a place to celebrate and get to go to the Caribbean. It's going to be fun. Not mad about it. It's going to be fun. All right. Click the link in the show notes or go to RamseySolutions.com slash events to book your cabin. Hopefully we'll see you in 2027. Iris is in Bismarck, North Dakota. What's going on, Iris? Hi, George and Rachel. How are you guys? Doing well. How can we help today? Okay, so I'm in quite a bit of debt, and I actually started going through the baby steps at the beginning of the year.

1:06:37started going full intensity about two months ago. Already paid off about$5 ,000. Awesome. Great. And my boss offered to lend me the money that I need to pay off the rest of my debt and just pay him without interest. Lend you the money. How much is this? So I have$41 ,805 left to pay off. Oof. And this is, so credit card,$9 ,373. I have$6 ,573 I owe to the IRS and a nasty personal loan with one main financial for$25 ,859. Okay. Okay.

1:07:32Rachel Cruze:No, I would not do that, Iris. I know it sounds good because you don't have to pay interest and all of that. But suddenly now you are tied to your boss as a bank, basically. and any mispayments, anything that happens in your life, any, I mean, anything that is going to be happening, he's going to be just there, right? From like an emotional financial perspective. And so keeping things clean and just saying, hey, keeping the creditors, the creditors, and keeping your boss, the boss, keeps very healthy boundaries and keeps everyone in the lane they should be in. And when you start muddling those, it can get messy really quick.

1:08:22And the truth is interest, the way you're attacking this thing, isn't going to be the issue.

1:08:27Rachel Cruze:That's a good point. So the issue is the behavior that got us here and you are actively transforming that. And I think there's something really powerful about using that dead snowball method to knock out the next set, the next set, freeing up the payment. And if you just owe your boss one weird giant payment, it's just going to hit different and it's probably going to take longer. You're probably going to get a little comfortable because like, well, I'm saving on interest. I don't need to be that aggressive. He only said I needed to pay 500 a month. And again, to Rachel's point, it just adds risk.

1:08:53It changes the relationship. I would much rather owe all these other people money than my own boss.

1:08:58Rachel Cruze:Yeah. Iris, how much do you make a year? Yeah. Well, it varies. I work in a restaurant. So this year I made 54 before taxes. Okay. And I started doing some side hustles so I can pay off this debt. Good, good. Hopefully by my goal is February of 2027. Awesome. I love how specific you've been. You knew your exact numbers on your debt. You have an exact debt payoff date. That gives me a lot of encouragement. I have a concert to go to, so I need to pay this off. That's hilarious. What concert is it? It's not Backstreet Boys. It's Carol G. She was in Coachella this year and she's going to perform in Puerto Rico February 26th.

1:09:44Ooh, a destination.

1:09:45Rachel Cruze:How fun. Iris is the boss at the restaurant that you work at? Yes. Okay. So I'll be honest, even more so why I wouldn't because that industry turns over so much. You could look up in six months and get a great paying job somewhere else. But then you weirdly have this like loyalty to him because he like did this big favor for you. Or he leaves and goes to a different restaurant, and now he's like, hey, I need all that money up front. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's the owner of the restaurant. The thing is, I've been working with him forever. I've known this guy for 11 years, and he's seen me for 11 years.

1:10:23And the thing is that he asked me, he's like, hey, Iris, I've seen you. You suck. Why haven't you bought a home?

1:10:30Rachel Cruze:Just life things. And so that's why he asked why I haven't progressed in a way. Yeah. And his heart's probably in the exact right spot, right? I don't think there's any malice or anything. We just see these situations go sideways like we do. When you start mingling relationships and money, especially when it comes to borrowing money, it just changes the relationship. And even though I think the heart of him is probably gold and it's probably great, I would have the more conservative approach of keeping him my boss and not my banker. Like that's just basically, you know, at the end of the day. So that's what we would do.

1:11:09Rachel Cruze:That's what I would do. George, I guess you could speak for yourself. Well, 100%. The more I'm thinking through this, I'm just going, this just feels like I can count on zero fingers how many times someone's called into the show and said, hey, I borrowed 40 grand from my boss and it worked out perfectly. Paid him back and everyone was happy and the relationship was great. It just doesn't happen. It's sort of a pie in the sky thought. and anytime you lend money to anybody that you know it usually ends up changing the relationship for the worse and to your point earlier george is so true iris like you are the secret sauce getting yourself out of debt it's not rearranging debt it's not consolidating here getting this lender there and all of this people people shuffle their debt around even if it's not their boss saying they'll pay it off but like to get a better deal here with the interest all of it but listen And at the end of the day, it's really not going to matter.

1:11:56Rachel Cruze:It may save you a month or two, right? But at the end of the day, it is you that's going to be paying this off. And you're the secret to it all. It's you. Not trying to finagle the interest. And so because of the risk of the relationship and your employment, all of it, yep, keeping it secret. And you're less than a year away according to your goal, right? Yes, so great. Yes. So less than 12 months. I'll call you guys back for the debt-free screen. Yeah, you will. And I hope you get to go to that concert. I'm not hip enough to know. I mean, I know Coachella. That's about, and I have heard of Carol G because I know that it's a really hip.

1:12:34I need to look her up. I'm so out of touch. Rachel and I only know music from like the early 2000s and we never learned anything new and exciting. Let me see.

1:12:41Rachel Cruze:Oh, she's pretty. So fun. Rachel, it's about the music. Okay. I know. I think it's great. Thank you for that. Give me a millennial boy band and I'm there. And dangle a carrot. I love that she has a thing that she wants to do that gives her a why. Yes. Sure. I'm going to work an extra shift to pay it off. It's a concert. It doesn't have to be this really deep why of like, you know, childhood trauma that I'm running from. It could just be a fun concert and you go, I want to feel like I earned it. That's my finish line out there. And not put it on a payment plan. Yep. That's my finish line. I mean, I was just at Disney, Rachel.

1:13:14Yes. And we did these street interviews. Can't wait for you to see the Disneyland version.

1:13:17Rachel Cruze:You did the Disneyland in California. Yes. And - How was it? Everyone I talked to, it was like an 18-year-old on a payment plan for the annual pass. It's only$130 a month. That's what they tell me. And her mom's on the payment plan, too. So they're doing this together. Dude, just legit. Not paying it off, just paying the monthly payment. Some generational debt to the old Mickey Mouse. It's like a family tradition now. But it's funny how we teach our kids that payments are okay as long as you can afford them. 100%. 100%. And just stupid financial decisions we get ourselves in from timeshares to car payments, all of that.

1:13:49Rachel Cruze:And it's like when it's so normalized, that's what your kids pick up, that that is how you do life. And that's what ends up, I think, of being average, right, of just being paycheck to paycheck, barely have enough for retirement, if that, but really having to depend on Social Security and you work your whole life for that ending. And it's like, no, you can get rid of all of that. Pay yourself instead of paying other people. And it's very peaceful on the other side when you're in control. Humans are really good at one thing, and that is justifying the things that they want, even when they don't have the money.

1:14:20That is the American way. And the sooner we can go the other way, the better off we're going to be.

1:14:59caesar is in colorado springs up next caesar welcome to the ramsey show hey george how are you guys we're doing great man what's going on with you well i'm a little dilemma i feel like have been for like about a year now uh my question is like what will get me closer to happiness money or experiences you know the right show i have what do you think caesar i think you know the answer um i think so but i like i know experiences will but i know like at my age I'm 21, so I feel like right now everybody says it's split. It's like everyone, some people say, oh, you should go have fun. And some people are like, oh, you should go work and make your money now and later have fun.

1:15:51And I'm like stuck in between those two.

1:15:54Rachel Cruze:Yeah, I don't think it has to be an either or at this point for you. I think there can be financial goals that can set you up to have a peaceful life because money does bring options and choices. And instead of being stressed and living paycheck to paycheck, which will rob your happiness, you know, you can set yourself up well. And especially at a young age, yes, investing and all of that will do that for you, Cesar. So on one end of the spectrum, absolutely. But the other end, the lie that money at the end of the day is going to be the thing that fulfills you, that's a lie. I mean, it doesn't.

1:16:30Rachel Cruze:Even people that have a goal of like, oh, I want to get a million dollars. Once they get it, it's like, okay, it's still me, so I got to do something else, right? That's, it's not the, there's, like we always say, the finish line always moves. So, so yeah, I think it could be a both and. I think you can enjoy your life and save some money and be wise with it. So. And also no amount of experiences will cure you if there's something going on inside. And so I want to tell you that as a 21 year old, I think that will free you to go. There's not a single trip that's going to be like, well, that did it.

1:17:01Yeah, that's true. I'm happy now. Like it's all ephemeral. It's all temporary. And so the key is what's going on in you, in Caesar, that's even stirring this up? Yeah, well, like, I feel like it's more like on a lookout for the future because like, right, every now and then I'm like, wow, like, I'm happy right now in life, you know, just, I guess what, like, like a lot of young people, it's like, I want an exotic car or like, I want a mansion one day, you know, it's like, I see like entrepreneurs go like, don't like they work seven days a week 15 hour days for 10 years and they finally have it but then they're like empty inside and at the same time i got i know people that just like have like the normal life and they go on vacations and and they they they invest a little bit and later on they're like oh i wish you know i guess what my fear is that i don't want to be limited by money in my life to be able to like to live you know if that makes sense

1:18:07Rachel Cruze:uh yeah i think so and i think it's just a mindset of what money is where money is placed in your value system and how you see it so if you worship money and you think it's the thing that is going to cure all i think you're gonna get to the end of your life and like you said you're gonna be you're not having anything to show for it from a relationship standpoint right Nobody lays on their deathbed and they're like, man, I wish I had a little bit more of my 401k. They're asking for their family and their friends. The things that money can't buy in life, I really do believe, are the things that give us the most joy and where we can actually find levels of contentment.

1:18:43Rachel Cruze:We put our time and energy into our families and into our marriages and our friendships and our spiritual life and our health. These things are really—those are the important things in life. Our friend Arthur Brooks talks about this, though, about how there's five things you can do with money. Four will actually bring happiness and one will not. Yes. And the one that will not, Caesar, is everything you listed out, which is stuff. That's the one thing that from a chemical reaction in your brain, like genuinely, scientifically, the stuff does not. It will give you a momentary hit, dopamine hit, but it doesn't last.

1:19:23Rachel Cruze:Yep. So the things that will give you happiness that he talks about is spending money on experiences, especially with people you love. With people you love. Buying your time back, that can bring happiness because you're not doing something you don't want to do and you get to refocus that time. Saving money and investing, that actually brings happiness to set up your future self for success. And then generosity. Making giving a habit in your life also brings you happiness. In fact, it's the most fun you can have with money. So the sooner you not only learn that, but you believe it and you act it out and it becomes the habit in your life, the better your life is going to be.

1:19:55And my friend Sahil Bloom wrote a book called The Five Types of Wealth, and he goes through relationships, family, social, your physical health, money, and work. Like all of those things combined, if you're healthy in all of those areas, you're going to be a happy person.

1:20:09Rachel Cruze:List those out again, George. What are they? So family. Yep. Social life, relationships. Yep, friendships. Your physical health. Yes. Your finances and money. Okay. And lastly, your work. My gosh, I just, I basically did the book. I just rambled off some stuff. But that's the stuff money can't buy right there. Like if you have a miserable job, you're going to be a miserable person. If you are broke your whole life stressed, you're not going to be happy. If your health is in poor shape, all you care about is your health at that point. And if you don't have good social relationships, you become the loneliest person on earth, even with a pile of money and in your big mansion.

1:20:40And you find that people who have the big mansions, who don't have a lot of people in their life and family, they want to go get a small apartment somewhere that feels cozy because it's just so lonely. It just amplifies the loneliness. So all that to say, Caesar, you're on the right path that you're even asking this question.

1:20:56Rachel Cruze:It's a good philosophical question. You're not calling saying, hey, I want to buy a Lamborghini. You're calling saying, hey, I know the Lamborghini is not going to bring me that joy. And the last thing I'm going to throw in there is faith, Caesar. I don't know your faith background, but I would say faith brings a deep level of grounding and a deep level of joy that the worldly treasures can never give you. That sermon hit you? I'm like, yeah, I'm like a little speechless right now because I thought you guys were going to tell me something else. But yeah, I guess. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

1:21:30Yeah, because like I just don't want to be like at the top of the hill and be like, oh, this is not what I wanted, you know. 100%. Can you do me a favor, Cesar? Go ahead. Can I recommend a book to you if you promise me you'll read it? And I'm not going to give it to you because you can access it for free right now, like on your phone. Perfect. Read the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible because this is a tale as old as time and Solomon did it bigger and better than anyone else and he has the best message for you at the end of it. Okay. Have you heard of that book? Yes. Okay. Great story. Richest man on earth had it all and at the end he goes, everything is meaningless.

1:22:09George loves. Spoiler alert.

1:22:10Rachel Cruze:George is such an Ecclesiastes person. I love an emo book of the Bible that's just like, yes, dude. It's like a goth kid. You know what I mean? What are we doing? Yes. What are we doing with our lives? But this is like, I have this existential crisis, you know, once a week where I go, what are we doing? I know. When you just pan back, you go, okay, what really is meaningful in life? That's why I liked the book Die With Zero. Not that I agreed with everything in it, but you're like, okay, what are we doing? Like, you know what I mean? You get to a point financially, which again, all of you listening, everyone is at a different place financially.

1:22:41Rachel Cruze:But, you know, if or when you get to that place of like, okay, you know, we've done it all. What am I doing? Am I just like stockpiling money? And then when I die in my 80s or 90s, my 60-year-old kids just get everything. Is that it? And it's like, no, live life now. And again, you have to set yourself up well to do that. So I'm not saying go into debt or spend everything every single month. Because no, that is, from a biblical perspective, that's going to cause stress. Like that will. But getting to a point of like, okay, if you work hard and you're smart with money, and yes, and you're in your, you know, mom and dad, I think they're a great example of this.

1:23:16Rachel Cruze:They're in Argentina right now. They were texting me pictures of waterfalls. Waterfalls. And I'm like, there's Dave in front of another waterfall. But you know what I mean? But it's like, enjoy it. And then they love our family so well. And they take us all on a trip every year. And it's like some of the best times. So it's like, spend some of your money. Like, yes, when you have it, spend some of it and enjoy it. And then the other part is the generosity part, George, which is, you're exactly right. When you actually have the means and the ability to reach into someone's situation and completely change their life, that is wild.

1:23:53Rachel Cruze:And you know what? Like an$8 ,000 car for a single mom sometimes will do that or a$10 ,000 car. And you can just pay for it and you just give it to her and that's it, right? I mean, that kind of stuff, when you can use your money while you're alive to do those kind of things, that is. There's a level of satisfaction that you're actually using your money as a tool to create a life that you love. That's it. In my book, I say, I talk about money so we can stop talking about money. Yes, yes. Let it become the tool that funds the rest of the things. That's right. That's right. And then ask yourself this question.

1:24:22Give us the clues. And then what? Well, I brought up this one from Galatians because this is really it for me. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. That, to me, is the goal. That's why we get our money right so that we can focus on joy and peace and love and all the things that are on TJ Maxx's Stitch Pillows. That's what it's about, Cesar. So I appreciate the call. It launched a good sermon for Rachel and I.

1:24:57Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm George Camel, joined by Rachel Cruz. The number to call is 888-825-5225 if you want to join the conversation. If not, just keep listening. You'll have a good time. Joseph is in New York City up next. Welcome to the show, Joseph. Thanks for taking my call. Absolutely. Yeah, so the issue that I'm trying to sort through right now is my daughter is heading off to college this year. I do have two other kids to follow behind her about four years apart, which is a good thing. have a lot of debt, about$200 ,000 worth of credit card debt and loans with personal loans and HELOC.

1:25:40That does not include the mortgage of about, you know, I pay about$4 ,400 a month there. So, you know, the issue that I'm having is that I make too much money that we don't get any financial aid. We were fortunate enough that we got some merit aid. My daughter's going to be to an SEC school and they're giving us like in-state tuition. So that helps a lot, but we're still going to be left with about 30 some thousand dollars after the fact. So I'm stuck with the question, do I try to pay that in cash? Because I can work extra that I could probably do that. Do I take the$20 ,000 parent plus loan out and put that extra money towards the debt that I have?

1:26:28I just don't know which way I go. My wife and I are, not that we fight about it, but we argue about what the heck we're going to do because we totally miscalculated and we didn't know anything about paying for college. I was still living in the 80s and 90s and things have changed since then. Yeah, for sure.

1:26:54Rachel Cruze:Yeah, the affordability of college is tough. So we find that we are not a proponent of any kind of debt, Joseph. So no, we will say no to the Parent PLUS loan. And we're about going to a school that everyone can afford. And it sounds like you guys can't afford this college. Right. Right. So that puts a awkward conversation in the air with the 18 year old because it's May and I'm sure the acceptance has already happened and the plans have already started rolling. But the truth is, if you guys don't have the money to pay for this, you don't have the money to pay for it. So either your son or daughter who's going off to college works and finds a job and has a different looking college life than just sorority houses and frat parties and football games.

1:27:48Rachel Cruze:And, you know, he or she will be working and or they can't go to that school. At least not right now. Have they already like have they have it in their heads or going to this school? How far are we? Yeah, we already committed. Got the T-shirt and everything. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so let's talk through this. How much money do you guys make a year? Combined income, about$340 ,000. Okay, so help me understand how a family making$340 ,000 is$200 ,000 in consumer debt. What happened? So we have a lot of credit cards. I took a HELOC loan out probably about five or six years ago. There's about$50 ,000 on that.

1:28:39We had a roof leak. There was about$20 ,000 on that. But what was happening to the actual income you had coming in? Because this is all outside of your$15 ,000 or$20 ,000 take-home every month. Where was that going? A lot of credit card misspending, bad, bad, bad decisions, bad decisions. Over a long period of time? Yeah, when we bought our first home, we were, which again, I'm financially illiterate, and I will take the full blame on that. When we bought our first home, our agent set us up with this financial person, and then we were making the minimum payment at the time. But I didn't realize that despite me making the minimum payment, which I thought was satisfying everything, it was borrowing against the principal of the mortgage.

1:29:33And my principal was actually going up. So that put us in a hole there. We have since sold that house and have moved on. I knew we couldn't afford the house that we lived in. We had a couple of friends, family, actually family, to front us some money so we could get the house. Right now our mortgage is about$4 ,400. And what's your take-home pay every month? What's coming into the bank between the two of you? So my wife is about$6 ,000. This is take-home after taxes. My wife is about$6 ,000. I'm about$8 ,000,$9 ,000, roughly about$10 ,000. And that's before overtime and extra shifts. I can work pretty much as many extra shifts as I can.

1:30:18And after taxes, I get about$1 ,000 per shift after taxes. Cool. Well, the math should be pretty clear here on how we're going to cash flow this. And if that means it slows down your debt payoff a little bit to get her through this first year and buy you guys some time, that's what I would do. Because I do think it's a great goal for her to go to school debt-free. but I think she needs to have some skin in the game versus dad just working his tail off so she can go enjoy the frat parties and sorority parties. So that would be the game plan. And then the long term, we need to clean up the$200 ,000 of debt using the debt snowball.

1:30:52So attacking the smallest one first. We need to rent, you know, really dial down our lifestyle because my guess is your total expenses are close to$16 ,000 a month, if not more. Yes, definitely. What's coming out of the bank account every month? Uh, mortgage. I mean, is it more than$16 ,000 or is there any money left over? No, no, there's, um, I would say, you know, I was doing rough estimates over the last week or two. I would say it's roughly about the, like,$14 ,000,$15 ,000 that's coming out. Okay. So maybe$1 ,000 or$2 ,000.

1:31:27Rachel Cruze:Because you said$4 ,000 is the mortgage. Right. Right. So you got$12 ,000 left. How much are all the payments on all the debt, the credit cards and everything? Let me see. I just paid a car off. We have two cars that are about$700 total between the two. The HELOC is about$500 a month. the credit cards are at several thousand it's a couple thousand a month you know it's like 30 percent interest which is killing me

1:32:14I'm trying to think of what else I have

1:32:16Rachel Cruze:yeah well I mean I'm at 7 ,000 right now I mean it's just to the point yes that these are and these things I don't we don't want you to get behind on so yeah so Joseph I mean I would sit down tonight and we'll give you uh every dollar our budgeting app we'll give you a year subscription to it because i would want i i would want if i were you you and your wife to sit down and list out everything that we spend money on in the month and and my my hope is and my sense is that you guys are gonna look up and be like oh crap three to four thousand dollars is just getting blown on subscriptions and how to eat and just whatever we whatever the flip we want to do and all of that has to be tightened up to not only pay off this debt, but if you guys are serious about this college of starting to save to cash flow and have to make payments for this college, forward payments, not back payments of debt.

1:33:08Rachel Cruze:And so getting on a really strict budget, Joseph, I mean, even looking at selling some of these cars if you want, like whatever you can do to get out of this as fast as possible is what you need to do. Yeah, I would not turn to any more debt. That's what's got us here. It's not going to get us out. So no more Parent Plus loans, No more just kind of phoning it in. You guys make too much to be this broke. Cut up the credit cards. Be done with them.

1:33:45Dave Ramsey here. Most people stay stuck with their money because they're not paying attention to it. Most people are living paycheck to paycheck. stressed out, and broke, don't be most people. You work way too hard to be broke and feel broke, and you deserve to have something to show for it. That's why we built the Every Dollar Budget app. It gives you a personalized plan for your money that shows you how to free up extra money every month and use it to beat debt and build lasting wealth. Plus, you get real coaches guiding you through your plan step by step. Look, most people hearing this will just keep hoping something changes, but not you.

1:34:24You're ready to make change happen, starting now. Go download EveryDollar in the App Store or Google Play and start for free today.

1:34:47Today's Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by WhyRefi. If you've lost control of your private student payments, your financial progress has stalled out. But WhyRefi helps borrowers explore refinancing options with payments built around their real life situations. Learn more at yrefy.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states.

1:35:08Rachel Cruze:Today's question comes from Susie in Washington. I recently paid off my Tesla. I love that. As two Tesla drivers, we appreciate that. And have$20 ,000 in credit card debt. Should I take a loan against my 401k to knock out that debt? Not in a thousand years. No, no, no. You paid off the Tesla. use the same intensity and get rid of the credit card debt. The problem with this loan against the 401k is there's multiple reasons. Number one, you are unplugging all of that compound growth that was happening. Yes. So that$10 ,000 loan you took out against your 401k is now not growing for you. On top of that, you're basically double taxed on it because you likely pay taxes to put the money in and now you're going to pay taxes as you pay it back in while paying interest on it.

1:36:00So no, I would not do this 401k loan and it also puts you at risk with your employer. And we've gotten this call recently of I got laid off, I got fired, and now the entire loan is due within 30 days.

1:36:11Rachel Cruze:Yes. Or else it gets counted as an early withdrawal, which then gets IRS penalties. That's right. And if you don't have the money, it's just gone then. Yep. And it doesn't change the behavior that got you here. It feels like a little shortcut. Yes. Robbing your future self. That's right. We say to never cash out retirement. That's 401ks, Roth IRAs, traditional IRAs, unless you are facing a bankruptcy or foreclosure. So we are not pulling it out to pay the house off early. We are not pulling it out to pay off consumer debts. So none of that. No withdrawals, no loans. That's right. None of it. Just pay it off with your future income, with your savings, with your gazelle intensity, with extra jobs.

1:36:46You've got it, girl.

1:36:46Rachel Cruze:She's doing it. Susie's on it. Yeah. I don't know how much that Tesla was and what the loan was, but if you can knock that out. Yeah. Hopefully it freed up a couple hundred bucks in the payment and throw that at the credit cards. Love it. Thanks for the question, Susie. All right. Azalea is in Raleigh up next. What's going on, Azalea? Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure. How can we help? So I want to know if it's a smart idea for my husband and I to invest in his business, or should we pay off all of our debt first? We have about, I forgot about his 401k. I was just listening to whatever was going on on the phone.

1:37:29But we have about$15 ,000 that he, a loan that he took out of his 401k that we need to pay back, and about$25 ,000-ish in credit card debt. we don't have any car payments and our household income is around 200 ,000 a year. And his business is growing and he wants to invest a trailer, a dump trailer and a new truck. The van he has is so old, it just can't do the work that he needs reliably. So with the truck and the dump trailer, it would be a total of about$70 ,000. But that would immediately – he would be making around$2 ,000 a month extra immediately with the work that he would be doing.

1:38:16Rachel Cruze:Okay, so he wouldn't recoup that until – That's like five years to break even. I was going to say three to – yeah. And you guys would have to go into debt for this? Yes, we have zero – we don't have any savings at all like cash. We do have assets, but we don't want to touch that. What do you mean assets? So we have land. We own land. We bought that cash, and we have gold. The total of those assets is around$90 ,000. How much is the gold? About$50 ,000. What are you hanging on to that for? Is this like apocalypse? Yes, like rainy day. You never know what's going to happen. We just want to be able to.

1:39:02Rachel Cruze:More than a rainy day, like the world ends kind of thing. Yeah, that's a little bit more than rain. A rainy day is like we'll get an umbrella. HVAC goes out, but you're not going to pay your HVAC guy in gold. I'm sure he'd take it. Right. Well, so it's just for us, it's just a question that we feel comfortable with. God forbid something really bad were to happen. we feel like we have that to like you know it'd be easier to grab a piece of gold and trade versus like selling land food what about money did we forget money's an option yeah so well with all of that being said we don't know what to do if we should just pay off our debts completely or if we should invest no you should not invest no because the return is opposite if you said i need to i I need to get a$2 ,000, which we had this call, I think, earlier this week or last week.

1:39:53Rachel Cruze:I needed$2 ,000 to get a new license for my career, and I'm going to make$5 ,000 more a month because of it. And it's like done. That's different. And you're paying cash. This is flip-flopped. This is$70 ,000 of debt to make$2 ,000 more. Even if you had the cash, I would say this probably isn't worth it. You guys can go be Uber drivers at night and make$2 ,000 more. Okay. So, no. Okay. No, no, no. Yeah. So pay off the debt. Small is the largest balances. And girl, I'm telling you, I would, and you're not going to do it. I take that gold and I'd pay off your debt. You guys will be debt free. You'll have some cash from that and then use that to slowly save up to invest in his business for his, like the truck, like one thing or the other, right?

1:40:41Rachel Cruze:because I do want him to be able to grow his business, but we got to do it at the speed of cash and not at the detriment of slowing down, getting out of consumer debt. So how much does he make a year off this business? So his main job, thankfully, he works from home and he has a lot of flexibility, which is why he's able to run his business. His main job pays him about$110 ,000. And then he makes around$40 ,000 to$50 ,000 with his business so that's okay and then you make another 40 or 50 and the rest yeah i'm a home baker so i make money from home i'm home with my kids i homeschool them okay so yeah i make an extra 50 to 60 so from a from a business perspective i would have which i'm sure you guys do you know his own business account with that and then i would break out yes how what's the cheapest truck i can get not a new nice truck like what's the cheapest truck i can get to do what i need to do So make that goal number one after you guys have paid off debt.

1:41:41Rachel Cruze:Okay. And have an emergency fund. And then the – what was it? It was the truck and a what? Credit cards. Oh, you're saying for the investment. Dump trailer. Dump trailer, yeah. Or one or the other. You're right. So like, yeah, but we're going to be cash flowing those purchases. It's easy to try to justify it with the money on the other side. The problem is that's not a guarantee, and we're not doing the math on what it's really going to cost us, the break even, all of that. So I would pay off all of your debt now. I personally would sell the gold. Otherwise, you're just going to be – I would love for you guys to sacrifice and get rid of this debt over a fast period of time.

1:42:17But the scary part is to me is that you guys are bringing home$12 ,000 a month, and yet you still turn to debt. So what's causing that behavior underneath it? Well, the debt, majority of our debt was from when we moved from New Jersey. And honestly, it was completely my fault. I accumulated a lot of debt buying things that were unnecessary. So has that behavior stopped? Yes, it has. And the other debt that we have, a credit card was from investing in my business. I've invested a total of$50 ,000 in my business, which means basically I've only made$10 ,000 last year. Investments, however, have stopped.

1:42:55I have everything I need to continue making money. So at this point, it's just making my profit.

1:43:00Rachel Cruze:And I do want you to, I want you guys to critically think though of the situation. I keep going back to, let's go$70 ,000 in debt. We'll make two grand more a month, but the debt payment on that may be$1 ,000 between the truck and the trailer, you know, so that you're really only making$1 ,000 a month. And again, plus there's interest. Yeah. People are doing that dog sitting. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm just keeping perspective of reality of these numbers because it's not, to me, it's like a non-starter. So, I'm just so afraid to sell the gold because we bought, like,$20 ,000 worth, and now it's at$50 ,000.

1:43:41So, like, I'm afraid to— Hold on, hold on. Are we doing this to get rich or are we doing this to, you know, secure ourselves in case of an apocalypse? Because right now you're mixing a lot. you told me it's just in case and now you're keeping it because now it's like well we could

1:43:56Rachel Cruze:make more gold's the fear commodity when fear happens which is happening right now the market's kind of up and down the war everything as soon as that calms down yes if that's gonna go down the market's already come back up i would get rid of the gold and get off the internet because that's what's caused you to buy this if the internet didn't exist you don't zero or cable news. It's all gold and reverse mortgages and walk-in bathtubs. Let's don't go down that path.

1:44:39Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:45:30Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel here with Rachel Cruz. You've heard us mention EveryDollar. And if you're working the baby steps, the best and fastest way to do it is by using the EveryDollar app. And it's more than just our budgeting app. Now the plan is built right in, and the singular focus of EveryDollar is to create margin to throw at your focused financial goal. You can track your progress, get personalized recommendations and coaching, and that will free up more money to work the plan even faster. So start EveryDollar for free by downloading it in the App Store or Google Play.

1:46:01Diane is in Philadelphia up next. Diane, welcome to the show. Hello, and thank you for this opportunity to get your advice. Oh, we're honored to give it. Hopefully it's good. I hope it is too. But anyway, let me give you some facts. I'm a caregiver for both my parents. They live with me in my home. They were divorced when I was like 12 years old, and they each remarried, and each of their spouses have passed. So I've had my dad, and they each have dementia too, by the way. But I've had my dad for eight years and I've had my mom for five. My mom had a condo, which we kept. I didn't sell it. I rented it out.

1:46:52I was a landlord, too, with all of this. That's a part-time job, too, girl.

1:46:57Rachel Cruze:I know. Tell me about it. So anyway, I rented it out for about four years. This is a really quaint little town, really nice town that I'd like to move to when all this is done. But my question is, okay, the vendor moved out. I've had it for about a year where I use it to go to just relax and get some respite. I have a sister. I'm the power of attorney. We're both on the will for both of them to receive one half each. I want to know, the condo still has a mortgage on it, and most of the mortgage payment, not most of it, about half is still going to interest. So what I'd like to do is pay off the mortgage, the remaining mortgage on the condo.

1:47:54My sister has said she hasn't been helping. I've been doing most of it by myself. She just started helping maybe about eight months ago. She said that she would forfeit her inheritance for the condo just because, you know, it would have been gone anyway had they been in a nursing home or anything like that. They would have taken any assets they had or that my mom has. So I want to know, one, is it okay? Would it be good to pay off the mortgage? It's about 33 ,000 left. And second, if I should get what my sister said in writing so that there's no problem in inheriting that property and having it for myself to move into.

1:48:45Rachel Cruze:Okay, so you're saying you want to take the condo and she'll take the rest of the inheritance? No. I mean, what do you mean? Any other? There are no other assets. Is that what you're asking? Oh, it's just the condo. Right now, yeah, for my mom. Yeah. In fact, yeah. So what is your sister getting in this? She wouldn't be getting anything. Not for my mom. My dad, my father has money. I've been, you know, a good steward of his money. So he has money left. And they each have insurance, but like an insurance policy that she would get half of that. Life insurance? Yeah, but my mom's is a small policy.

1:49:25Okay. It's only about$15 ,000. Okay. So, but on my dad's side, she would get money. She hasn't really done anything for...

1:49:35Rachel Cruze:Yeah, I was going to say the compensation of you being the caregiver is something usually most siblings, you know, talk about. Because to your point, you would be paying for someone to be doing this and you've been doing that. And in some states you can get paid to be the caregiver of your parents. but they don't yeah you'd have to be on medicaid and and um you know they'd have to spend down all their assets at work you know they don't have a lien on my condo would be gone so how much is the condo worth if you were to sell it yeah the market value right now is is um so i should say only but it's about 130 130 okay okay so one bedroom one bedroom condo yeah so So technically, if it was paid off and that was the asset that you girls had, that you and your sister had to split, then to buy her out, you would have to pay$65 ,000 to pay her out.

1:50:33Rachel Cruze:But you're saying you have$33 ,000 that you could do just to pay it off right now. I could pay the mortgage so my mom wouldn't be paying interest on that because I am using, she gets a monthly pension. So a small pension, about$2 ,500 a month. and I use part of that to pay the mortgage. Yeah, because at the end, like if you didn't pay it off and she passed, the estate has to settle up. You'd have to continue the payments on your own. I'd be paying it anyway. Yeah, exactly. Or I'd have to sell it. That's the thing. If you get it in writing that you're going to get your money you put into it plus your share, then I think that's fair.

1:51:11Rachel Cruze:Yeah, you just may have to still continue to buy her. There may still be a difference. But I wonder if you can add up from an hour's perspective of the caregiving and just see if your sister would negotiate with you, like, some of it off just for what you would have done? Well, even at that, like, if she was in a nursing home, that's why I figured if she was in a nursing home, just a mediocre nursing home nowadays is like$9 ,000 a month, and it's$350 a day. That's what you're saving by you being the caregiver. Yeah, that's what it is,$108 ,000 a year. That's six figures a year easily. And I've had it five years, so I figured I've earned the kind of that.

1:51:54That's my point of view, but I just wanted to give you an opinion. Have you mentioned that to you?

1:51:57Rachel Cruze:Have you said that to your sister at all? Have you all had that conversation? Well, yeah, she did. Yeah, she said, yes, you can have it. But saying it, and that's what I'm saying. Oh, I'm sorry. So she's good with it, but you just need to get it in writing. Because you're like, well, it's a handshake agreement right now. We need this in writing. Right, exactly. Yeah, so just say, hey, I'm working with my estate planner. We just want to formalize some of these things. and get it in writing so that we're clear, there's no confusion. And you guys have a good relationship right now? It was better.

1:52:27When she wasn't helping out, it wasn't so good. Okay. There was enough pause there that I went, oh, okay. Just a slight pause. But, yeah, you want to salvage what's left of the relationship at least, and it can go south when, you know, family passes, you're grieving, and now you're like, well, you said. And now she's looking at the numbers going, well, I'd love to have 60 grand in my pocket. Yeah, I never said that. Yeah, right. Exactly. Because she doesn't, she never listened to me. I've been telling her about your program. I'm debt free. Awesome. But they're, they're, and you know, in dire, not dire strengths, but you know.

1:53:01But they're struggling more than you are. That's how I got her to help me. I offered her money. That's how she's helping because I pay her. Well, I think what you're doing is very fair. You sound like a real noble, sweet person. I mean, the fact that you've, you know, given your life to care for your family at this point is.

1:53:15Rachel Cruze:Yeah, you're amazing. Incredible. They're so lucky to have you in their life. And that's a much better life than being in a nursing home, by the way. The quality of care that you're giving them is priceless. So I appreciate the call and I wish you the best for formalizing all of this. For sure. Yeah, I was going to say, if you called to get permission to, is formalizing okay? Yes, it should be a requirement. And so I would... And should I pay off? Should I pay off the mortgage now? Once it's formalized, I think it's wise to go, if you got the money sitting around burning in a hole in your pocket, you don't want to deal with the mortgage and the interest, it'll definitely give you some peace of mind.

1:53:48Rachel Cruze:But make sure it's formalized first. And then you can decide if you keep the condo or not. That's a great idea. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Thank you for the call, Diane. I love that we're talking about this now. What a jewel of a human. Oof. Yeah. And two parents with dementia. I cannot imagine. That's so hard. So hard. Oh, wow. That's a lot of work. And the other thing to think about here is power of attorney, which it can be very difficult once they have lost the cognitive ability to make decisions. So depending on the diagnosis, I would be talking to the doctor and the estate planning attorney to figure out can we get a financial power of attorney to move the money around, make financial decisions on their behalf.

1:54:24That's an important piece of the puzzle too. But I appreciate the call. This is the hard stuff you deal with and the baby steps don't make any of this easier. It just takes away the stress of money problems on top of all of this. So I'm so glad that you followed the plan, Diane. you're debt-free, you have options because you set yourself up for that kind of life, for that kind of flexibility, for that kind of generosity. Because if you were broke, you wouldn't have many options. You wouldn't be able to take care of your family the way you are. You wouldn't be able to pay off the condo. So I appreciate you being a living example of what life looks like when you follow this plan.

1:55:09Thank you.

1:55:19All right, let's cut to the chase. It's easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates. But when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, you'll have confidence to make smart decisions. Ramsey Trusted Agents aren't just experts who guide you through buying or selling. They're people you can trust to have your back from the first call to closing day. Find a Ramsey Trusted Agent near you at RamseySolutions.com slash agent. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:56:02Our scripture of the day, 2 Corinthians 4.16. Therefore, we do not lose heart, though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. Thomas Edison said many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. There we go. Thanks for the light bulb, my guy. We got a lot of lights in here. Thanks to you. Never give up. All right. Michael's in Louisville up next. What's going on, Michael? Hey, how are you doing, sir? We're doing great. Just having a good time. So my question is I just recently came across a financial reset myself.

1:56:42and came across a decent sum of money. And I'm looking to see moving forward, what is the best way to be a good godly steward of what I've got?

1:56:51Rachel Cruze:Oh, that's a great question. How much money has come upon you, Michael? Well, believe it or not, I just sold a baseball card for over$300 ,000. Come again now. What card was this? Tell us the deets. How do we get into the business? Yeah, literally, I'm telling you, I went to the card shop, finances have been tight, and I had spent a lot of money. I had been selling a lot of baseball cards to help pay Billy this winter. And so I thought I owed it to myself to go buy some more. And so I bought a box that had two cards in it and pulled a one-of-one Otani Refractor, which just sold an auction for$324 ,000.

1:57:33Rachel Cruze:Oh, my gosh. That is wild. That is crazy. So is this like an auction that will handle this all for you and they take a fee? Yes, so they've already taken it. It's already sold. I've already gotten a large cash advance, and the rest of it comes within the next week through a wire transfer. Wow. All right, what's your net worth currently without this card? Without this card? I mean, so I've never been Dave Ramsey financially free. I struggled with credit cards early on and kind of never was able to get out of that hole. I've got investment properties, just a few, the wife and I. And so we're in really good shape on those.

1:58:13And thanks to this baseball card, completely debt-free with the exception of mortgages. Oh, great. Okay, so you don't have credit card debt anymore. I just paid it off. But you have your primary home as a mortgage?

1:58:25Rachel Cruze:Well, he had it before the baseball card. How much did you have before the baseball card? I'm just curious. That's embarrassing. Probably like$40 ,000-some thousand. Okay, because that part of you has not changed. Okay. The guy that got$40 ,000 in credit card debt, he's still there. He's still in you, okay? And you just were able to wipe it off with a lucky bar. That same part of your brain, that impulsivity that caused you to go into credit card debt is the same one that got you that card. It just happened to work out this time. Right. So I'm just saying we got to be cautious, okay? Because. Okay.

1:58:58Rachel Cruze:Meaning, I'm glad you paid it off. But do you know what I'm saying? You had no emotional sweat equity, if you will, by paying off$40 ,000 of credit card debt. that it didn't take you a year with extra jobs and you had to really sacrifice. It was just in one fell swoop. It was gone. So nothing in you has really changed. So it's just a red flag. It's a marker. Just easy to go back in. Yep. Just a marker of, hey, I got to be aware that that is my, that's my propensity is to go into debt. So we got to remember that. But just to say this, I have definitely changed. This has given me a new perspective on life.

1:59:32I knew it's given my wife and I financial breath. The stress is completely gone. I understand those impulses may be there, but I'm very much aware of the blessing this is and that things need to change moving forward. Good.

1:59:46Rachel Cruze:Okay, I'm so glad. So glad you said that. Yes. So what's left on the mortgages? So with investment properties, we have about 230 that's owed and then, I'm sorry, 320 that's owed on investment properties. and$100 and some on personal mortgage. Okay. And do you guys have savings already? We've got a little bit. Not much. Okay. And what's the amount that's sitting there from the card right now? We still have over$200 ,000 coming. Okay, great. So you can fully fund an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses and still have, what,$160 ,000,$175 ,000? Yes. And that would pay off your primary mortgage, correct?

2:00:36Okay. Well, first of all, I got to give – I mean, I know that I need to give something back to the Lord here. Sure. We weren't done with the list. I was just walking through the things you could be doing. We're going to give some and enjoy some for sure. I just want to see what was left over after you paid down the mortgage and set aside the emergency fund. I got you. I understand. Would there be a good chunk left over after that? No. No, there was another secondary, like a home equity line of credit that I paid off as well. So I'm looking at, as it says, with mortgages and about a little over$200 ,000.

2:01:11Okay. That's just your primary plus the HELOC, not the investment properties. The primary is about$180 ,000. The HELOC is paid off, and then I have investment properties. Okay. The HELOC is paid off. So we don't even – it's out of the picture now. Great. Yes. Okay. Okay. So what I'm thinking is we set aside an emergency fund. If we have enough to pay off the mortgage completely, let's do that. And then the rest, let's give some and enjoy some. That sounds good. Any different thoughts on that, Rachel?

2:01:42Rachel Cruze:No, I... Freeze up a mortgage payment. So I love that idea. Yes, for sure. Yes. One of my mortgages has like eight and a half percent, which is higher than everything else. It's 55 ,000 for one of the properties. I thought about getting rid of that one just because... I was going to say, yeah. How many investment properties do you have? I have four. Okay. And they all have mortgages on them? Yes, but they're all, I mean, there's plenty of equity in all of them, but the highest interest rate is one that's$55 ,000. I'm just curious. If you sold all four investment properties, I'm just curious, and paid off all the mortgages, how much equity, how much cash would y 'all be sitting on?

2:02:24if we sold everything sold all the investment properties and paid off my mortgage no no no didn't pay off yours

2:02:31Rachel Cruze:paid off the mortgages on those properties so what would you net out oh with the money from the card there's not enough money no no no no no Michael you have four properties here we have time we got we got we got three minutes let's do the math how much is one of the properties how much is it worth and how much do you owe on property number one 94 is what's owed and 120 is what it's worth. 120, okay. Property two? 55 is owed, 120 is what it's worth. 120, okay. Property three? 80 is what's owed, 160 is what it's worth. 150? 160. 60, all right. So we got... The last one? Yep. 80 is owed, 180 is what it's worth.

2:03:21Rachel Cruze:Okay. Got it. Okay. So we got, I got like 280. George, was my math right? I'll double check your math on that. I'm chicken scratching on this paper. 271. Final answer, Bob. 271. Oh, it was pretty quick. I'm rounded. I was a rounder. All right. So that's before any kind of closing costs and realtor fees, but let's call it 250-ish. 250 just for the heck of it of equity that's in some of these. Okay. I'm just trying to paint. I'm trying to get different scenarios because when you come into a pile of money, there's a lot of different. And because you guys have so many things happening in your life.

2:03:58Rachel Cruze:And you're asking us, the word steward is on the screen. You brought God into it. You brought God in, so we're going to talk about that. We'll go there. My pastor and I have talked about like a possible foundation with a little bit of money or, you know, paying for submissions. Well, here's the thing. Generosity comes from overflow. And right now, you know, if you look at Proverbs, the borrower is slave to the lender. Yes. So if we're going a biblical worldview with our money, every time debt is mentioned in scripture, Michael, it's in a negative fashion. It is not a sin. So you're not going to like go to hell because you have a HELOC.

2:04:32Rachel Cruze:Like none of that. Okay. It's not a sin. Although the word hell is in HELOC. I just want to put that out there. That's true. The letters are there. You know, you don't have to confess anything. Like it's not a sin, but every time it is mentioned, it is negative. It's a curse on your family. You are a slave to the lender. It is not good. Like nowhere in debt, in scripture, is debt good, okay? So Michael, I'm going to be a little hard on you, but you've been playing around the edges and the fringes of this debt world. Helox and credit cards and four mortgages. I mean, it is like you have become, you have loved debt like you do.

2:05:05Rachel Cruze:You use debt as a tool and it's gotten you in a really bad spot. And now, it's going to be so sacrilegious, I was going to say. Get out of hell free card? Get out of hell free card. Came upon you. So if we're going to go all in with the biblical perspective, let's go all in. And let's just pay everything off. Let's sell everything. Let's start with no debt. And if you did that, you would have probably almost$300 ,000 back in your pocket after you sell everything and pay off the primary home with the proceeds of the car. $300 ,000 in the black, Michael. You got this, man. That's what I would do.

2:05:42Hey, that puts the sour in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.