Building Wealth Requires the Courage to Make Unpopular Decisions

20:43Back to the phone lines we go. We've got John who's in Reno, Nevada, forever reminding me of Sister Act. What's going on, John? How can we help? Yeah, hi. Yes, I have a question. And right now, my daughter's not speaking to me because, you know, there was comments that I said about me not putting myself in debt for her to go to college. And I never said I wouldn't help her. It's just, you know, I don't want to put my family too in danger for putting me in a loan. So then after that, I mean, it's been probably now a year and three months that she hasn't talked to me. And I guess my question is, I make about$185 ,000.

21:29I have$45 ,000 in debt. I still want to help her, but I just don't know how to do this or how to even explain it to her. It just got pretty ugly. Can I ask a question? I feel like for whatever reason, I'm making an assumption, and I don't want to make it if I'm wrong. uh is your wife involved or is this a is is it just you and her or is there a wife involved tell me tell me more about your family situation so so yeah so me so me and my wife are willing to help out right and the only thing is just one of the things that we don't try to do is put ourselves in loans understood i just wanted to make sure i understood the family dynamics when

22:11George Kamel:did this conversation start i'm curious was it because this is like we know that eventually someone might go to college. And then the word was June 2025. That's when you started the conversation. Yeah. Okay. And when is college supposed to begin? Well, she actually graduated this year and she decided to go out of state and college too. Okay. And you guys never had this conversation. We had the conversation a couple of years back, but her mom and what I'm I'm not with her mom. That's what I was trying to understand. Yeah, I guess they never give me type of information or anything, you know, like to be able to clear things out.

22:56They're just like, oh, you need to pay for this. And then in that same conversation, they're like, oh, well, can you at least help for the car? And I was like, what car are we buying? So there was never really any type of information given to me other than just little bits and pieces. And they just expecting me to do it right there and then. Okay. Understood. That's, that's the family dynamic I was trying to get to. I had a sense that something, there was a separation or, you know, your wife is not in the house. Here's, here's what I think is happening and I could be wrong, but just by the way that you're saying your words, it sounds more like you're talking more about what you're not going to do versus talking about what you are going to do.

23:35And I would be leading the conversation with exactly what I'm going to do to help. And I think if you do that, then it'll cause them to hang out there as well. And remember that from the conversation. For example, if she says, but daddy, I want to go to this school and I, the only way I'm going to go is going to, I need a$30 ,000 loan. And you say, I'm not taking no$30 ,000 loan, right? That's not going to work. But if she says, but daddy, I want to go to this college. And you say, honey, I'm going to give you $15 ,000 for college. It's up to you to figure out which school you can go to where that money will go the furthest.

24:10Here are my suggestions. Do you see what I'm saying? That's a very different conversation. Now you've never said no. You've never said no. You've just said, here's what I'm saying yes to. And I think that that would go a long way because if what's happening is true, which is they're having a bunch of side conversations and they're marinating on this and maybe inflating it beyond what you've said, your best protection is to be able to say over and over, I'm giving her the 15 ,000. I'm giving her the 15 ,000. I've said I would pay up to this point for this particular school. So if you're being accused of not caring, show that you care by saying, here's a school that works.

24:49It's in my budget. If we all pool our money, we can do it like this, right? Let's solve the problem versus everybody talking about what we can't do. Yeah, and that I did try, but their thing is like no she needs to go here that's what she wants to do and that's what she's going to do and at that point I was like hey well I'm not going to be able to do that especially it's out of state um and then you have to pay out of state fees too so are you not helping at all financially right now yeah so what I did was just uh put you know I put myself in child support and all that stuff so I've been paying all that um child support um and that's pretty much a and whenever she comes to, she came to the house before, you know, she had her own room, her own place to be.

25:34And I had, you know, told her like, hey, if you need anything, you know, come to talk to dad. Well, not anything. Yeah. Like, well, what I meant, like when it came to school, right. You know, let me know and we'll talk, but I don't need to be talking to your mom because it's just become such a toxic thing. Well, that's what I want to know.

25:55George Kamel:What is the relationship with mom versus you? And how long has it been like that? So, yeah, so it's been 18 years. I never married her. So I have my own family with my wife. Yeah, so yeah, with my wife, I never married her. So I never been with her ever, ever since my kid was born. So this has just kind of been, for lack of a better word, like baby mama drama for 18 years, back and forth, back and forth. Okay. That makes a lot more sense. Now I just want to clarify just to get down to brass tacks. We understand you're not going into debt. I would not, I would agree with you. And I think George would too.

26:36We're not going into debt. I'm not signing a parent plus loan. I'm not going to recommend for her to go into debt. How much, how much money do you plan to give her every month or every semester for college? What's the number that you have in your head?

26:50George Kamel:That I don't have, but I mean, I could come up with the number. That's what we need. Could that restart this relationship? I think if you going to her and saying, hey, I have really screwed this up and I'm so sorry. There was a lack of clarity. I did not communicate well. I communicated too late and that's on me. What I do want to do is restart this conversation and create a plan for you to go to college debt-free. And here's how much I can do right now based on my financial situation. Would that get her to perk up? I'm hoping, yeah. Because there's so much deeper here. There's a lot of relational issues.

27:27George Kamel:This money thing is just like one baby symptom of years and years of broken relationships. And I think she's now seeing this as, man, this guy hasn't been there for me relationally and he's not even here for me financially. Well, yeah, and that's how it seems, right? And the thing is that I've always been there for her. She's stayed with me, like I tell you guys, like every weekend and stuff like that. I made sure that I went to the courts, got child support on myself, and then made sure that I had visitation with her because I knew that we're going to try to pull her away. So I made myself, you know, available for her.

28:08It sounds like there's just two. There's two conflicting family dynamics. You've got a family over here who we're a no-debt family, and then there's a family on this end for her that's like, hey, whatever it takes, we're going to do it. And she's caught in the middle of that is what it sounds like. I agree with George wholeheartedly. If you come to her, because I'm going to tell you like this, my dad said to me, when I said I want to go to this school and I need a loan, he said I'm not doing student loans. He said to me straight up, he was like, you better get a scholarship. you better be good at sports because I'm not taking out no student loans is what he said and I was like okay you know and I remember at the time feeling a way about it because you know you're 18 you're 17 you're 16 you're young um but on this side I'm like oh thank goodness I'm really glad that he didn't ensnare both of us you know I went on and I was hard-headed and took out some loans but at least it wasn't a parent plus loan and at least I didn't ensnare him in it so I think on the flip side, like longer down the line, she's going to appreciate that.

29:08But if you do what George said and you humble yourself and apologize for not starting this conversation earlier as the adult, she is, that's going to do something to her on the inside because parents don't apologize to children enough for the mistakes that they make. And so please, please do that. And don't do it in the heat of the, of the, you know, the next conversation. You, you go first, call her up and get, hey, can I take you out to lunch? Can I take you out to dinner? Sit her down and go, I messed up. And here's how I did it. And I think that's going to change the whole landscape from this going forward.

29:44George Kamel:Yeah, no, I agree. Cool, cool, cool. Man, well, it's a great wake-up call to all the parents out there. Do not start this conversation as your child is touring schools. Start this conversation at 12, at 14, at 15. So there's no surprises. Your kid knows exactly where you stand. Hey, I will cover four years at an in-state school. That's right. That's what I'm willing to cover. And if you can't, if you don't have the money, that's okay. As long as you have set the expectation, I don't have the money for college. You're going to have to get a job. You're going to have to do work study. You're going to have to go to community college.

30:16As long as you set the expectation, that's all we can really ask of you.

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31:53George Kamel:ben is in birmingham up next ben welcome to the show how can we help today hey um yeah how are y 'all today doing great what's up with you awesome I'm doing all right, except I am in a little bit of a tight spot. In the past year, I've gone through a divorce, had to move out, and just a lot of financial issues have popped up. And I have a debt collector chasing me for a loan that was defaulted on during all that. And I have a small amount of cash, and I'm only netting$410 a month after bills and expenses. And I was just wondering or just needing some direction on what to do with the cash to best deal with the debt collectors because it's just weighing on me and I'm afraid of eventually being sued.

32:44How much is the debt that you have with collections?

32:48George Kamel:It's$9 ,800. Okay,$9 ,800. How old is it? Personal loan. Okay. Yeah, and how old is that? A couple years. Okay. Okay. It's been in default for a couple years. How long has it been in collections, I mean? About a year. About a year? Okay. Yeah. And so you've got$410 in margin every month after everything is accounted for? Yes. And this is the only debt, or is there other debts to speak of? There are other debts. That's just the only one in collections. Tell us about the other debts so we can think through all of it. Okay. The largest debt that I have is my car loan, and it's$38 ,000. And then$35 ,000 in student loans.

33:37George Kamel:Those are in deferment right now. And then$12 ,600 in personal loans. And then, of course, the$8 ,900 in collections. And then my smallest debt is$2 ,300 in credit cards. And this is after the divorce has been settled? this is what was allotted to you? Yes. Okay. Yeah, you know, for as far as the collections, you can start putting aside some cash to try to settle that. And I try to settle it for maybe 25 % of the amount. And in the meantime, because you're going to need that money in cash, you're not going to be able to settle it if you don't have the numbers in cash. So I would work towards that.

34:19And in the meantime, I think something that could really help you free up some cash immediately is taking a look at this car payment. It's$38 ,000. Tell us what you bring in a year and a month. Tell us both of those numbers. Okay.

34:35George Kamel:In a year, I net$47 ,500. And then my monthly net is$39 ,60. Okay. So hearing those numbers, I mean, George, I look at that and immediately I say, you cannot have a$38 ,000 car. It is just too much of your world, of your yearly income tied up in a vehicle, something that's going down in value. Did you roll over negative equity? Yes. Okay, so this car is worth what,$10 ,000,$15 ,000,$20 ,000? Probably$20 ,000. Okay. So you're$18 ,000 underwater on that, and the only way out is to come up with that amount, either with savings or through personal loan at a credit union. I doubt they will give that to you due to your debt and collections and your credit's probably shot from all this, right?

35:25Yeah, I've worked it back up to like$690. Okay. I think I heard you say you had some cash saved. How much? $2 ,700. So you've got$2 ,700 in cash saved. If I were you, I'd probably be looking to get some sort of a personal loan, credit union loan, whatever I can for the$18 ,000 to get out of this car loan. and then I would take the$2 ,700, put a little more with it and probably buy a$5 ,000 beater car that'll get you from point A to point B. And that's going to save you on this car payment because what are you paying per month for this$38 ,000 car?

36:03George Kamel:$7 ,29. $7 ,29, exactly. And so if I were in your shoes, I'd rather have a debt for$18 ,000 versus one for$38 ,000. And now you've got over$1 ,000 in margin every month if you do that. Well, I drive an hour to work both ways. So that's definitely what I wanted to do because my transmission went out in my truck last year and it was going to cost me$12 ,000 to fix it. So that's why I had to get another vehicle and roll over negative equity. But I was like, because I've been listening to you guys for about a year, and I knew that was what I should do, But I was concerned that if I bought one that was a beater per se, that I'd be stuck on the side of the interstate.

36:53Well, we can try to pick something that, you know, is road tested because you can find things out there that are old and still doing well. I mean, I can tell you right now the car that one of the cars that I have is my old Cadillac SRX. It's worth$1 ,500, but it drives. There's no problems with it. And if, you know, if you sold, if I were to sell you that car, you'd have zero problems driving an hour there and an hour back. So they're out there. I think the way to do that is ask around, ask around town, ask around your church who's selling a vehicle, one where you can really know the background on it.

37:23George Kamel:Even Facebook Marketplace, I mean, just something with fuel efficiency because you're driving that thing to the ground anyways. Yeah. And so let's buy it when it already has the most depreciation hit on it. What's the make and model of your current vehicle? It's a 2024 RAV4. Okay. We can be honest, Ben. We're friends by now. lord knows you didn't need a 2024 rav4 to go from a to b an hour that could have been a 2014 and done the same thing now i understand that you're worried about the issues you have the trauma from the transmission going out and so like well i need the newest most reliable vehicle but the truth is some of these new cars are even less reliable than they used to be and they got all the technology now so if something goes wrong the repairs can be real expensive right so i would be looking to get out of that because that will save you the most money per month and that will allow you to then save up and settle with the with the creditor now how how close are they to suing you what have they told you um well the the credit's been sold three times or the debt excuse me um and with the last uh debt collector um i had gotten um an agreement with them twice to pay$6 ,000 in a lump sum.

38:36George Kamel:And they would just change the terms each time I would call back and they would never put it in writing. And they always wanted my bank account information. And I knew listening to you all to not do that. So then they wound up selling the debt again. And I haven't begun working with the new debt collector, but they sent me a letter last week. So I'll have to write them and go through all that again. I mean, you're going to have to hound them almost as much as they hound you in order to get this done. And the truth is, because I've done it, you call one agent, there's nothing in their brain and they can't get it done.

39:09You got to call nine times, talk to the right person who understands the process, who will do it right. So this is going to be a full-time job for you, but I do think it's worth it. It's going to be worth the hassle in order to settle that debt for a significant amount less. Now let's talk about the student loans. You said that they're deferred. I want to know, do you know, are these federal loans, are they unsubsidized or are they subsidized? Because I need to understand if these are continuing to accrue interest while you wait. They are accruing interest. Okay. If you can, I would stop that and pay minimum payments because I want you to at least do your best to cause these to not grow over time.

39:48It sounds like you have the margin to be able to do that, but what this is going to take, and this is the part that is not the fun part, If you want to make some major headway in this debt, you're going to have to pick up more hours, overtime, side hustle. We've got to get this up from$47 ,000 a year because you just don't have the margin to make this work. Would you agree? Yes. Let's brainstorm some of the things that you can do. Does your job offer overtime? You're driving an hour to do this job. Hopefully, we can get some extra hours.

40:23George Kamel:I'm salaried. I'm a manager. I was thinking, though, there are some smaller where the little town where I live, there are some smaller like retail businesses where I could possibly pick up, you know, 15 hours a week. Yes, I love that. Just on the side. And do you have shared custody? Do you need to stay in this area currently? Not necessarily. I work with my church in the area. But as far as no, we don't I didn't have kids or anything like that. Okay. So I'm just wondering, can you move just closer? Instead of driving an hour, can it be 10 minutes and you pay the same in rent or cheaper? The rent would be quite a bit higher just because I work in Birmingham.

41:07George Kamel:Oh, got it. So you're heading into the city. Uh-huh. Okay. Well, as long as we're getting a side hustle that's worth your time and not something where you're making pennies, I mean, we need to capitalize on time and money right now. And If you do those things, the things that George and I said, getting rid of this car, taking those student loans off deferment and really hone in on here, you can get this debt paid off and you can clean up the situation.

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42:53George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm George Camel with Jade Warshaw. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. Riley joins us in St. Louis up next. What's going on, Riley? Hey, can you hear me okay? You sound great. Okay. So, George and Jade, my question is, so I just graduated pharmacy school. Woo-hoo! I have, thank you, my husband and I together, this is the only debt we have is my student loans. I have$132 ,000, which is the principal, and it is a federal unsubsidized. I have$16 ,000 that accrued in interest while I was going through school and was unable to pay those off.

43:40So I'm sitting right at right under 150 ,000. I do have a job lined up. I haven't met with HR to discuss exactly what my pay is going to be. So I can't pinpoint that, but I do want to knock out those loans as fast as possible. But with that, my husband and I, we have the baby fever very strongly and we are thrilled to start a family. But at the same time, I do want to get a little acclimated to my job and we want to get some of this tackled. But when would you guys say is a good time to kind of start going to that next step once I get some of these loans tackled? So here's what I'll say on the matter.

44:25And I'll allow you to take from it what you will, because I can't stress enough that this is a personal decision for you to make. But also there are some very real things to consider. So how old are you guys first off? I'm 24. He's 26. Okay. And this is the only debt there is? Yes, ma 'am. Okay. So I'll start with a couple of points for you to consider. First off, you have to think about your career and the unknown of how you'll feel when you have a child. Okay? When my husband and I were in your shoes, that was the thing I thought. It's like, okay, if I have a kid, I'm saying right now, I want to keep working, but I really don't know how I'm going to feel when that baby gets in my arms.

45:10And so what you can do today to prepare yourself for that and to have that option is everything, right? You want to, what people want out of life more than anything else is they just want to have the option. So paying off this debt first gives you the option. So that's something to consider. I'm not saying you have to, but it does give you the option of saying, you know what, I paid off my debt. I can afford to pull back if I want to from my pharmacy hours, whatever. So that's thing one to think through. And then thinking through, OK, what would our life look like if we did go down to one income?

45:46So having clear thought processes on that today when you're kind of in a cold brain mindset versus later on when you're like, you know, heated and you know what you think, you know what you want. thinking through that today is so so important uh the number three thing that i will tell you is children are expensive and they add things they add priorities they add things to your margin that you're like dang it i want to use that margin to pay off debt now i have to think about things like cribs and there's choices that you're going to want to make so i'm just being your buddy and putting that out there if you want to have a baby tomorrow you can i'm not i'm never going to take that away from you.

46:24But I also will say for Sam and I, and you guys' debt is less, for Sam and I, we really thought through that and thought, you know what, for us, we want to clean up this debt first. We've got plenty of time. And for us, it was worth it to do that. It was from a value standpoint. And so I like to share both sides of that equation. Again, being very clear that it's your option. I'm not going to say you can't have kids until you pay off debt, but I do want you to think through it. You're not in this situation, but so many people call in and the reason that they're struggling is they kept having kids instead of focusing on the matter at hand.

47:01And I think we can do a better job of family planning in a lot of situations and we have the ability to do that. So you should. Okay. That's my spiel. What are you thinking? um so i have my job is lined up i haven't met with hr to discuss pay uh but what i do know is is that it's considered so it's hospital pharmacy um it's considered part-time but i have the ability to pick up so many hours to where i'm easily going to work 40 hours a week um which is because if i do get to the point to where i want to pull back it seems like i'm going to have the ability. Obviously, that's not 100 % a given forever because things change and new employees can get added on, but that's where I'm at right now.

47:49And I've been assured that by management there. My husband is doing pretty well with his job. So my thought is that I would, so he makes 80, he's, he's salaried at 86 ,000 right now. He's a civil engineer and he's in the process of doing a test to become a level two, which is considered a promotion. I wish I could describe it better. All I care about is he's getting a pay bump if this goes through. A very, very nice pay bump. He'll be making six figures. Yes, sir.

48:29George Kamel:Great. That's some good debt payoff money right there. And I assume you'll be making decent money as a pharmacist, one would hope. If at 30 hours a week, I'd be making just under six figures. So with picking up the extra hours, I'll be making over six figures. Right. So let's picture a world where you guys are making$200 ,000, you're aggressively attacking this debt, and we're taking care of a baby. Can you guys handle that? No, that's a loaded question. What's the total of your student loan payments? What does that add up to? The total of what I would be paying off. Yeah. What's the total payments you need to make to satisfy those minimum payments currently?

49:14So that's the other tricky part. When I was kind of doing my exit loan counseling through FAFSA, I didn't, it was hard for me to kind of enter in what I needed to put because I didn't, like it was asking what my salary was going to be. And it was like, well, I don't know.

49:32George Kamel:Are you an income-driven repayment? I do not want to do that. Okay, good. I've had plenty of people encourage me to do the public service loan forgiveness. No, you don't need to do it. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Well, your homework is to figure out what these payments will actually add up to as part of your monthly budget, what your current bills are, and then see where you guys are at. And that will give you a very clear picture of how quickly you're going to pay off this debt, what adding a baby into the mix would do, how much margin are you going to need to cover, you know, formula, wipes, diapers, all that stuff.

50:06George Kamel:And that'll give you a better next step. How are you guys living, Riley? Are you renting? What do you have? We are renting. Our rent is$9.75 a month, and then we pay internet and electric. Love that. That's a good price for you. Very reasonable. What was your question? And then, so my question was, I had talked to, we had a financial advisor, like, come during our exit week of pharmacy school. And I asked her a question, and I know it's just one person, so I love that I'm getting a second input. But I let her know that I wanted to pay these loans off as soon as possible. So I said, should I max out what that payment's going to be with my loan servicer?

50:55and she said, no, don't do that. Do what you're comfortable with because you can always pay excess on top in case anything were to happen. Because my husband and I also do have about$50 ,000. Yeah, I would say whatever they, whatever they, you know, they're going to take your income into account and whatever your payment is, that's fine. Don't try to make it less intentionally. Your goal is to pay it off. So in that way, she was right. Put as much extra, as much margin as you can find on top of that minimum payment to go directly to the principal.

51:40Okay, George, we hear from so many people that are trying to live out the Ramsey plan, right? They're getting out of debt and everything. But the hard thing is there's not many banks out there that actually support the way we teach people to handle money.

51:51George Kamel:Yeah, most banks, they don't want you to win with money. So they charge a bunch of nuisance fees. There's all this fine print. And worst of all, they are pushing debt products at you nonstop. Yes, but the good thing is that Fairwinds isn't like most banks. They're not like the other guys. They're not like the other guys. Yeah, they are not pushing debt. And they actually want you to win with the baby steps. And so what's great, too, is they created the smart bundle for Ramsey fans, which includes a high-yield savings account and no monthly fee checking. Which is huge because it's rare to have a checking account tied to a high-yield savings account.

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53:27George Kamel:Matt is in Portland, Oregon up next. What's going on, Matt? How can we help today? What's it going, George and Jade? I'm glad to be on the show. Glad to have you. My question is whether it's a responsible use of funds to start up a side hustle, even though I'm not totally sure what the path to profitability on it is overall. What is this side hustle? So I previously had a business doing something similar. It's a mobile bicycle and e-bike repair, a pretty popular metro area for it. Yeah, Portland is the mecca for that. Yeah, right, and I work for a company that does that presently. um like so i previously started a business doing that and eventually grew that um into a brick and mortar location and then sold it so i have background in it i know what i'm doing i know what the cost it would cost me probably about 30 grand to start it up but for a mobile repair business what are you are you needing like a van that has specialty equipment yeah yeah so that would be that would be like if i had my wish list everything was like exactly how i want it good branding, just running start, basically.

54:47I can do it for a lot less, but this would be like, if I could do everything I wanted to do, that's what it would cost. Why do you want to do it as a side hustle if you already know you have had success doing it as a business? Are you just thinking that you'll start small and build it up? What's your end goal? Basically, I mean, the way I look at it is that the mobile the mobile option is not a hugely profitable uh enterprise in itself but it's a great ramp to getting into a brick and mortar location building a brand things like that but why'd

55:24George Kamel:you let it go the first time I didn't want to live where I was living. I wanted to move out of that area and be close to my family. I'm originally from here. And like I said, I did sell the business eventually, so it worked out in the long run. But I did have times where I was like, do I just want to be the bike repair on a bus guy? Like, not really. So you know how to do the business. The only thing that's changed is location. pretty much yes do you have the money to start it again do you have the cash uh i have well more than enough yes i do uh how much do you have i have about 480 uh in total um and i think i'm going to owe probably so this is the sale of the business occurred last year so um i'm going to owe about probably like 50 grand in taxes, maybe even more.

56:24Okay. So let's call it 400.

56:25George Kamel:You have for some play money here, and you're wondering should I take a portion of this and try to start this business? And you said you work for a company that currently does this? Yes, but I only work weekends. I'm not making very much right now, so I have insight into like their metrics and how well they do in the area. And they're a mobile repair business? They are, yes. They're a national franchise. Yeah, if I'm the business, I'm going, dude, this is a conflict of interest here if we're going to be our competition. Oh, absolutely. I would have to quit. I probably shouldn't even be calling you guys right now on a national show because if they hurt, I would probably get fired.

56:59So you're not trying to do both at the same time? Oh, God, no. Got you. I would basically give them my two weeks and say, look, sorry, I think I want to go independent. How quickly can you be profitable? I mean, that's the thing. And let me, I'm sorry, let me. I don't know for sure. Let me restate. How quickly can you make a wage that is enough for you to live on and start recouping the$30 ,000 that you invested? Let me put it like that. I think with the right branding and, you know, a good, good run rate off the ground, I think I can get going pretty quickly. I think I could be breaking even within a couple months of having it running.

57:45And then, you know, depending on how, depending on how much time I want to put into it, you know, maybe I make it, I could recoup my costs if I was really grinding, you know, within six months or so. I love that. Tell us about your family.

58:00George Kamel:That's basically like it's a full-time thing. I love that for you. Who else is a part of this? Do you have a wife, kids? Who else is going to be affected? I have no independence. It's just me.

58:17I'm pretty much free to do as I please.

58:21George Kamel:Would you use your savings to float your bills until this thing gets off the ground? yeah and that's why i mean i know a lot of this sounds like kind of like okay have the money have the business plan and all that like why why even call i just to me it feels a little bit strange to be like knowingly you know dipping into my savings a certain amount it's like i can't work that much i can't work another side thing sure but you're telling us you'd go 40 plus hours a week into this business if you started tomorrow uh i i feasibly could you know if i built i think i could build up a client base quickly um but it's like i guess the other thing is best case scenario best case full-time fully booked right um i'd maybe make like 50 grand you know profit after everything um can you live off of that but can you live off that yeah probably yeah i'm pretty frugal.

59:19I think for you, Matt, I think what you're looking for is some boundaries on this. I think that would make you feel a little bit better. And so if I were in your shoes, I'd probably sit down and say, okay, I know I've got 400 ,000. That's a nice payday from this other business, but I don't want to get sloppy. And so if I say that I'm going to invest 30 ,000 in this, I'm going to be very detailed on what that 30 ,000 is going to go towards. And then I'm going to be very detailed on what I'm going to live off of from the savings and have a very clear timeline. If I get six months into this and I'm not profitable, I'm not paying myself 50 ,000 from this, then here's what I'm going to do next.

1:00:00Like you've got to give yourself an on-ramp, like a go, no-go. If I get here and things aren't going, then I'm going to stop because I'm not, or I'm going to stop going at this rate, or I'm going to pick up a part-time job or whatever that thing is that you're not just draining off of this nest egg. I think you have to have a clear amount of money that's like, I'm going to spend$30 ,000 on the business and I'm going to live off$40 ,000 for the next year. And that's where it stops. I'm 70 in. Do you see what I'm saying? And I think that'll give you not only peace, but it'll give you a timeline.

1:00:31Like I got to hustle and I got to flow.

1:00:34George Kamel:Because if you're just vibing, you're going to call back three years from now and say, hey, I blew 400 grand trying to start a business and living off my savings and it didn't work. What do I do now? And that's a much different problem to have than to call it quits at 70 all in and still have 330 left over to survive and go get a different full-time job somewhere and say, hey, I tried. If this is really your dream, you're doing it with cash. You're not going to go into debt for it. You've done this before with success. Yeah, you earned the right to do it. from here. But my only hesitation is, if 50K is your ceiling forever, this kind of sucks.

1:01:11George Kamel:You want to start a business because you can do better than you could elsewhere. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, is this really a career? It's a labor of love. I love to do it. Is it a career? Well, are you trying to exit from it again? Or is this something you want? Like, is the end goal, hey, I exited well the first time, I'm going to do that again? Or is the goal, this is where I work for the rest of my life. Those are two different end goals. Yeah, that's a great question. And it's kind of murky. I think I got lucky the first time with the exit. It's not common in this type of business. There's no guarantee that would happen again.

1:01:45So just being realistic about that, those end points is kind of something to be aware of.

1:01:50George Kamel:What does this business make that you're working for now? What do they make? Yeah, I mean, is the owner making more than 50 grand in profit? Uh, well, so they, the, the, the truck, a truck does, uh, about 120 in top line revenue. And I think they, they gross about a 50 % margin. That's where I got that 50 from. Got it. But you said that you can go from having a truck to going to brick and mortar. So if you were going to brick and mortar, what do you think that you'd be, you know, what would be your revenue and what do you think you could pay yourself? hard to say on that because the market is so crowded here and that's actually why i don't want to go brick and mortar i think the mobile is like more flexible easier startup costs um so i mean brick and mortar like just for reference like we did in my my last order our best year was 2024 we did just shy of a million and i think we made like 115 on that like had pretty yeah Yeah, there's much more overhead with that.

1:02:53George Kamel:Yeah, I mean, I would go for it. Just know you're kind of signing up for a food truck instead of a restaurant, and that's the end game is you run a food truck forever, but in the bike world. And that's okay if you can make peace with that.

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1:04:36George Kamel:Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that is built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. And today we're going to break down the most asked questions of the week. There were some questions around estate planning, tracking expenses, buying a car. But the number one question was around retirement investing. I love that. What should I consider when deciding between different retirement accounts like IRAs, 401ks, and Roth accounts? Good question. So here's kind of our order of operation when it comes to investing. You've heard us say it before. uh 401ks 403bs up to the employer match um so that's great match beats roth beats traditional is kind of the way that we say it so the explanation there is we love free money right a match is free money this is money from your employer it's an instant 100 return i wouldn't leave that money on the table if you get a four percent match so you put in four percent let's say that's a thousand dollars they're going to put in another thousand yeah free cash so we We start with the match.

1:05:36If you don't have that available to you or if you do, the next place would be the Roth IRA. We love the Roth. In 2026, you can contribute up to$7 ,500 a year. Obviously, for catch-up, that's$8 ,600. The Roth is the rock star of retirement accounts. You pay the taxes now. Your money grows and then comes out completely tax-free like the laundry. We love that.

1:05:58George Kamel:We love to see it. And then let's say you haven't hit 15 % yet. Let's say you make$100 ,000. 15 % is 15 grand. you haven't quite hit that between the match and maxing out a Roth IRA. Well, then you just go back to your traditional accounts like that, traditional 401k, until you hit 15%. Yeah, I love that. And a lot of people ask the question, and we kind of hit this, what's better, Jade and George, do we do Roth? Do we do traditional? Is one better? If it's up to me, always choose Roth, always. Here's why. Traditional, you get the tax break now, but later you have to pay taxes on everything, including your heirs.

1:06:32So if they inherit that money and it's traditional money, They're on the hook for that too. With IRAs, there's required minimum distributions.

1:06:38George Kamel:What will the tax rate be at the time you retire and start to withdraw? Yeah, that could be very scary. Good point. So Roth, go ahead and pay those taxes now. Enjoy that tax-free growth. And then have those tax-free withdrawals forever. That's nice. It's just nice to know when I'm finally retired after working hard my whole life, the government is going to get their grubby hands on that money at least. I love that. I love that. Go check out Ask Ramsey. and help you figure out how much of your income should go into each of these different types of accounts based on your current situation. You can ask your question today at RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or podcast.

1:07:16George Kamel:All right, we're out to Jacksonville, Florida up next. Kirsten joins us there. What's going on? Hi. So I'm getting married in 15 days. And thank you. And we're combining our accounts once we get married. And we're basically trying to figure out kind of how to get the baby steps going so we can save to buy a house and we're wanting to know like how much we should save to buy a house and all of that fun stuff. Fantastic. Exciting times for you guys. Okay. Do you know what your incomes will be once you're married? Yes. So he makes about$48 ,000 a year right now and I make$40 ,000 a year right now.

1:07:53George Kamel:Okay. So$88 ,000 is what we're working with. Do you guys have any debt going into this marriage? So the only debt we have is two credit cards, and the credit card's total is$1 ,600. Oh, great. And so that will get paid off very quickly, if not before the honeymoon. Yeah, no, we're planning to pay it once we combine the accounts. Great. And do either of you have savings currently? Yeah. So together, right now, without paying off the debt, we have$11 ,700 in savings. Okay. And that's everything. So that's going to be sort of your starter emergency fund. Let's take out$1 ,600. Let's call it$10K in your emergency fund right now.

1:08:32George Kamel:So that's going to be step two. Step one, pay off all consumer debt. Step two, we're going to then move on to kind of filling up that emergency fund to three to six months of our new household expenses. Yes, sir. And then we can start saving up the down payment. So your question is how much to save? yeah kind of because like so once the bills are all totaled up with like food gas all that stuff we're going to be spending 3100 a month that includes rent okay great so you're going to be renting for a while yes and once we pay off the the debt it actually subtracts 250 so i guess technically it's going to be 20 28 50 or something like that okay a month so you guys will be bringing home, you said$88 ,000 will be the gross household income?

1:09:21That is correct.

1:09:22George Kamel:Okay. So after taxes, can we call it$5 ,500, somewhere around there? Yes. All right. So minus your, let's call it$3 ,000 in expenses, you'll have$2 ,500 left over that you could save for that down payment. Okay. Yes, sir. And that is$30 ,000 a year. Yes. So now we know, it's kind of like, what house are we wanting to buy and at what point do we have enough down payment to get the mortgage payment to 25 % or less of our after-tax income? Right. And we're kind of on the, like, Fritz said, we don't know if we want to buy land first and then possibly pay that off and then get a house put on it or if we should just buy a house first.

1:10:03I would do the math first and let the numbers speak to your soul because what you're hoping for if you just kind of think with the numbers that you have today okay making you know 56 5500 a month that payment's going to have to be 1400 bucks uh at the savings rate that george said which was i think 30 000 a year what would that look like on a you know the houses that we're thinking would suit us so have you done any looking whatsoever size for what you guys are looking for size-wise, bedroom-wise, do you know what the cost would be? Yeah. So at minimum, we would need at least to start out a two-bedroom, one bath.

1:10:42And that's because we also have a surprise on the way. Love that. Love that. Yes. And so that would be pretty minimal. So we can probably find something that's like anywhere from two to two 50. Okay. So George is plugging, plugging that in.

1:10:58George Kamel:I just, that, that was exactly my math. I was like, man, if they get$200 ,000 house, you put$60 ,000 down, that's two years of saving up, right, aggressively. You could get a 15-year fixed rate mortgage where the payment's about$1 ,400. And that would give you guys a whole lot of peace and margin. Because what's your rent right now? Well, it's$1 ,374. Exactly. So you'd still have about$2 ,500 in margin every month to invest, to help cover the expenses for the baby, all of these things. That's the goal here. So it looks like you're going to be renting for another two or so years and aggressively saving up, but that would be the price point.

1:11:38George Kamel:Obviously the goalpost may move a little because two years from now, that same house might be $230,$240. So the goal is let's get the income up. Let's keep saving. Are you going to be putting the baby in daycare? So no, I'm not. And that was also something is I have talked to my boss and he's going to allow me to continue working and he's going to be able to let me work at home. Wow. That's great. Yes. That's work on top of work. Yes. And so the big thing was that I didn't know if I would be able to keep the amount of hours I'm working currently because it's like you just never know how it is when you get to have a baby.

1:12:15So it might lessen just a little bit, but he is also in the process of possibly getting a raise at his job, which will open up the possibility of like getting a 401k and all that stuff too. Well, what you're talking about, I think is a very smart place to be mentally. And that's for anybody listening. If you're in a situation where both spouses are currently working and you're thinking about buying a house and you know, there's children on the way, you know, children at some point will be part of the equation. The best thing that you can think about is what will life look like if we were to go down to one income, even if it's just temporarily, even if it's for a couple of years while the baby is in arms, right?

1:12:57And making sure that whatever house you purchase can weather that storm and it's never gonna be too big of a percentage of your income that you don't have the option to stay home if you wanted to, right?

1:13:09George Kamel:It's not the dream home if it crushes your dream of staying home because the mortgage is so high. And so you gotta be thinking long-term when it comes to the biggest purchase of your life. And you guys have a couple of years, before we're here. So let's just be really diligent about getting our income up, keeping the expenses low, working on saving up that down payment. I would just put it in a good high yield savings account. And if you don't have one already, you can jump onto fairwinds.org slash Ramsey. They have an awesome smart bundle that includes that account and just start stocking away and get ready for this wedding.

1:13:41George Kamel:15 days. Exciting stuff. She seems pretty calm, cool, collected for getting married in 15 days. I know. I guess all the details have been ironed out at that point. I know it's that baby it's giving her calm.

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1:15:47George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel here with Jade Warshaw. We're taking your calls at 888-825-5225. We get a lot of questions about buying a home. We just had one about how much to save for a down payment. And the truth is buying or selling your home is a big decision. A lot of zeros on the end. And with so much conflicting housing market news, it can be hard to know what's going on. So we're here to make those latest trends easy to understand. And we know mortgage rates still volatile right now, but remember, rates will always rise and fall. What matters most is finding a home you can actually afford today.

1:16:19George Kamel:Only your financial readiness should drive your decision on when to buy, not rates. Median home prices went up to about$425 ,000 last month, which is typical for a spring market as we head into the summer. Prices are lower than this time last year, and homes are taking a bit longer to sell, not like the olden days where it was like day one, 17 offers. Now there are some markets that that's still happening, but overall it's slowed down. So that's good news if you're ready to buy and looking for a better deal. And if you want to learn about the latest housing market trends, see weekly mortgage rate updates, get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence, head to ramsysolutions.com slash market, or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube.

1:17:01George Kamel:Sarah is in Cleveland up next. Sarah, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi. Hi, everyone. How are you this afternoon? Doing great. What's your question today? I'm just wondering where me and my husband should invest our money. Okay. Tell us more. So we make a combined about$375 ,000. We have about$500 ,000 in our 401ks. We both have Roths. We're debt-free. we have a index life insurance um we each have one that we were kind of talked into oh boy who who hated you enough to sell that to you oh okay what family friend old college roommate who was it you don't have to give names but i know it's someone close to you yeah so i i kind of we're we're uh we're on the seven-year plan so on our last year of paying that off um paying that off yeah because every year we're contributing so much for seven years so that we can max out this is bad huh yeah like a max funded iul policy yes yeah that's exactly what we each have one man you made someone so rich they are just counting the dollar bills right now as you're on this call.

1:18:27George Kamel:Okay. Well, tell us more. Okay. We also, we have two annuities. Oh, boy. Is this the same person that sold you this? Yeah. Yeah. Goodness gracious. Okay. So this was an insurance salesman in sheep's, wolf's clothing here is what happened. This was not a financial advisor. So every year we kind of go to him and we have more money. So now we are going to have another chunk of money. And I, me and my husband were talking, like, before we just do this, let's get some advice. So I thought I would call in and see what should we do with our money. Obviously, I'm not making the right decision. Well, you're doing, I'm trying to put myself in your headspace.

1:19:08My guess is you're maxing out 401ks, you're maxing out Roth IRAs, and you're just looking for someplace else to park money, right? Yes. Okay. And this guy's like, I've got just the thing for you.

1:19:20George Kamel:Do you have term life insurance in place? um through our our work we do okay you're gonna need more than that i assume that's probably like a year worth in there yeah probably so i would get it on your own it's always wise to have term life insurance outside of your employer because if anything changes you could lose that and so i would get 10 to 12 times your household income of each your incomes in a term life policy 15 20 25 years max, and you can jump onto Xander.com and get that done today. Start that process and apply. And once you have that in place, now we can cancel these IUL policies and get out of these annuities.

1:20:01George Kamel:That is your best bet, as much as there's going to be a sunk cost fallacy here, and as much as this guy is going to try to talk you off that ledge. Okay. He's going to make this sound like it is the worst financial decision you could ever make is to stop working with him and being in these insurance products. Okay. I was fearful you would say that. Okay. But think about it. I mean, what have they sold you so far? Investments? No. They've sold you insurance products that are marketed as investments. That's a red flag. And if you looked at the rate of return, there's no way it was even close to what you could have made if you had just invested it even just in an index fund, in a brokerage account.

1:20:42George Kamel:The market has over doubled in the past seven years. And you told me you're on year seven. if you had just parked that much money, all those premiums you put in, if you just parked that in an index fund, it would have doubled. So has your money doubled in those seven years? No. That's another tell. So this is sadly the current state of the, I'm going to put financial advising world in big air quotes. Sure. Because it's really just wealth strategists, insurance agents who sell these products and they make it sound like it's a smart investment. Well, it's the closest thing. They don't have the securities license to sell actual mutual funds or actual securities.

1:21:21You get away with these annuities.

1:21:22George Kamel:So I'm so sorry, Sarah. The good news is you guys make so much money. You're doing so well on your wealth building journey. And this will just be a blip along the way. Or you go, oh, man, remember we fell for that stupid tax when that guy sold us all those crappy policies? Okay. So where should we? What should I do then? The good news is if you took this money, okay, you're in your 30s. if you took this money and parked it in a brokerage account, and just like George said, even if you just parked it in a normal index fund, I'm guessing you have about 15%, let's just say 4 ,600 bucks a month for the next, I mean, you're going to be at$13 million if you did this from today until age 60.

1:22:03And that's not including the 500 ,000 you already have invested, by the way, because that's going to continue to grow as well. So this is just an easy, non-sexy, I set it and forget it, and it just grows and multiplies, and I come out looking like the hero with$13 million. How easy is that? That's awesome. Sodality has our 401k. Love that.

1:22:31George Kamel:So anything that's employer-related, you can handle that. And then anything outside of that, I would contact a smart investor pro and you can jump on to RamseySolutions.com and get in touch. They will not sell you an IUL policy. They will not sell you an annuity just because they can make higher commissions from it. They're going to do the right thing with the heart of a teacher to help you understand what you're investing in. And that's the power of working with someone trustworthy. And sadly, you were kind of swindled into this. And it happens to the best of us. It happens to a lot, especially high earners, because they go, well, this is they told me this is what the wealthy do.

1:23:06Yeah.

1:23:06George Kamel:So I thought I should do that. Now, another place you could invest if you have access, a high deductible, your insurance, I'm sorry, your health insurance, if you have a high deductible plan, you could do something through there. And yeah, do you have a health savings account through a high deductible plan?

1:23:26No, no.

1:23:27George Kamel:OK. So you have more of a traditional insurance policy for health. For health, yes. Okay. Well, if you ever did switch to a high deductible health plan, you would have access to a health savings account. And you can actually invest inside of that just like you would an IRA. And it's a great – there's triple tax benefits in that. There's tax benefits all around it. And so that's a great way to invest as well. But here's the general blueprint for anybody who is a high earner. Investing does look different. So, of course, the 401k is a great bet. Absolutely. There is no income limits to investing in a 401k and maxing that out.

1:24:02George Kamel:And then you still have access to invest in a Roth IRA even if your income is high. And there's a version called a backdoor Roth IRA. The way that works is you fund a traditional IRA with after-tax dollars and then immediately convert it over to Roth. So it's that simple. That's a great way to fully fund two backdoor Roth IRAs. Again, the health savings account has some awesome investment strategies within that. And then if you've exhausted all of those sort of tax advantaged plans, then you can move on to a just a non-retirement taxable brokerage account and invest in index funds. And that can also kind of become a bridge account you can use to retire earlier than 59 and a half if you so choose.

1:24:42Yes, indeedy.

1:24:43George Kamel:So that's exactly the blueprint for a high earner. And, you know, everyone hopes to get there. That's a great aspirational goal to be making two, three, four hundred thousand dollars. Yes. Great problem to have, but unfortunately along the way, as you build wealth, there will be traps. There will be wolves. There will be people who are trying to make a commission off of you. And you got to be aware. You got to play defense while you're playing offense. And part of that is seeing those red flags, becoming educated, always pausing. And if your gut tells you something doesn't feel right about this, he was really pushing that product hard.

1:25:18George Kamel:You got to listen to your gut. Let me go ahead and do some Googling here or call the Ramsey Show and get their take on this. because we got no skin in the game other than helping you build wealth.

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1:26:12George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm George Camel, joined by Jared Warshaw. The number to call is 888-825-5225 if you want to jump into the conversation with your money question. Amanda is in Sacramento up next. What's going on, Amanda? Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. I tried to back out here before I got on the line because I feel like I'm in just a different financial situation than some of the other callers. That's okay. I'm glad you didn't back out. Yeah. Yeah. I was assured that I belong here. Absolutely you do. We've heard it all. Yeah, well, thank you.

1:26:55So I'm trying to decide. I think I know what to do, but I'd love your guys' advice. I'm in a situation where I just broke up with my ex, the father of my children. So I'm a single mom. And since 2024, I've been paying the mortgage on the house that we're staying in. I have a divorce agreement that's been signed by the judge and in the court that says that this house is basically mine. If I sell it, I get the profits and I can stay here. So my ex took an equity loan out on the home before he made that agreement. So I have to pay a$500 equity loan and a wonderful mortgage payment of$1 ,100, which is so reasonable.

1:27:41Yeah. And so this house was my family home. And my dad, before he passed away, let I say us. It's actually my ex because it all went in his name by the home. And we got a good like three percent interest rate on it. So I'm in a place where even though it's a challenge for me to handle it all by myself, I couldn't really get rent for any cheaper than sixteen hundred for myself and my two children. um so i'm in a place where i've gotten a couple payments behind and i used credit cards about eight thousand dollars worth of credit cards to pay bills for a few months and i'm two thousand dollars behind on the mortgage um and my my income is variable i work as a associate marriage and family therapist so i make a decent income but i deal with a lot of cancellations and then recently health issues.

1:28:35What do you make as the counselor? I make 65 an hour. And that's, you know, because I'm still under supervision. So I only make a portion of the hourly rate, which is about 150 an hour. But you're saying that it's hard to get 40 hours when people constantly back out yes there's no cancellation fee unfortunately no because I work with partnership clients so that's a medical division of medical and we can't charge the clients anything so on an average week if you had to say like on an average week how many hours like paid hours do you think you work I shoot for 20, which is considered full time for therapy because I'm a trauma therapist and after about six hours a day I start to almost fall asleep in session.

1:29:32So that's around $5 ,200 a month? It is. And what do you bring home from there? And so what I've actually been bringing home is closer to$3 ,000 a month. My last couple paychecks have actually been under$1 ,500. I get paid bi-monthly. And so that's, you know, just barely enough to cover the bills. I do get$800 for child support. And so that's a bit of a buffer. So if we were to build your budget today, we'd build it on$3 ,800 a month? Yes. Okay. Yes. Because that's, yeah, that's baseline what I bring home. Okay. Sorry for that kind of, I just needed to get those numbers. If there's anything else you want to keep going, you can go ahead and keep going.

1:30:18Yeah, no, go ahead. I think that we could probably work with that as far as what you guys might advise. Great.

1:30:23George Kamel:So that's about 42 % of your take-home pay is getting eaten up by this mortgage, which is a lot, but nothing's on fire so far if we can work consistently. Do you have any other debts? I do have, I'm sorry, a school debt. How much is that? It's$128 ,000, but I haven't started getting charged for it. I'm on like an income-based payment. Okay. So the interest on that is staggering, but I'm not being charged for it yet. The interest is not accruing while you're on your income-driven payment. It is accruing. Oh, it is accruing. So this could be$150 ,000 in student loan debt in no time. Easily. What's the payment?

1:31:10What's the minimum payment to stop it from being deferred? uh oh like to cover the interest is that what you're asking well what are you paying anything on it right now is there any monthly payment due okay no if you were to sign up to go ahead and

1:31:28George Kamel:pay it get out of the income driven payment what would your payment be from what i understand from my colleagues it would be between 700 and a thousand okay all right so that's a hidden cost we haven't accounted for. Yeah, yeah. Any other debt? A lot of that just gets eaten up in interest. Yeah, sure. Car loans, medical debt? Yes,$23 ,000 on a car loan that I pay$400 a month for. Okay. No medical debt. So$8 ,000 in credit card debt. And yeah,$2 ,000 that I'm still paying for a car that broke down. Okay. Okay, so... We're looking at about$160 ,000 in consumer debt. Okay. What is the house worth?

1:32:22$280 ,000.

1:32:24George Kamel:Just look that up while I was waiting. And what's left on the mortgage balance? $150 ,000. I think it's$156 ,000. Okay. Okay. And there's a$50 ,000 equity loan that would have to be paid out of that. All right. So that's probably you, if I'm just going through the other scenario, let's say you did sell and you paid off the mortgage, paid off the equity loan, paid the fees, you know, the closing costs, all of that, you're probably going to net close to 50 grand. Exactly. Which then you could use, you could clean up the car loan, both car loans and the credit card debt with that and start attacking some of the student loans, which would help.

1:33:05George Kamel:I mean, you'd free up some payments along the way there. Yes. And then you could tackle the student loan debt. Now the issue is where are we going to live and how are we going to afford rent? So that's another issue. What is keeping you right now in Sacramento? So I'm actually a couple hours north, and I'm in just a very affordable situation. So a rental, for me to get a two-bedroom, really small apartment would be about$1 ,600 a month where I'm at. So we keep our housing costs about where they are with less maintenance, repairs, risk. And more cash. And more cash. Yes. So that feels like a good move for you long term.

1:33:49And it's a fresh start.

1:33:50George Kamel:It's because of all the other variables that we've now added to the picture. If you didn't have any other debt and we could fix this with just your income, I'd go, hey, let's keep it. But right now, I don't see a path out to start even paying on these student loans until we solve some of these other issues. Right. I think you have to view this instead of viewing it as kind of what you were saying earlier, which is I have such a great interest rate. You know, I got the house. I was left. You know, you've got to view this as I get the opportunity to have a fresh start. That way it doesn't feel like so much of a loss or it doesn't feel like you're going backwards because you're truly not.

1:34:24You're going in the right direction. You're building something completely new for your life, for yourself, for your children. And I think having a brand new place to call home to do that from is actually going to do your soul good.

1:34:36George Kamel:Yeah, clearing some of this debt will free you mentally, emotionally, spiritually, on top of financially.

1:34:58You've heard from me and the Ramsey personalities for years, but nothing beats actually getting together in person. That's why we created the Live Like No One Else Cruise. For seven days, we're vacationing with you and 2 ,500 Ramsey people in the Western Caribbean with live shows, us, new content, us, and more. If you're on Baby Step 4 or beyond, come spend the week with us next March. Choose your cabin at RamseySolutions.com slash events or click the link in the show notes.

1:35:45George Kamel:Today's Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by Why Refi. Defaulted private student loans can derail your money plans, but Why Refi helps borrowers explore refinancing options designed to get them on track again. Learn more at whyrefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states. Okay, today's question comes from Brady in Colorado. He says, my brother and dad are pressuring me to go into debt to buy the new Swatch X AP. Swatch by AP. I think the X is like a buy. Okay, swatch by AP Pocket Watch, which can be around$1 ,500. How do I tell them I'm in baby step two and would rather pay off my debt instead of adding more to it?

1:36:31They say it's an investment and will increase in value for resale purposes, so it's not dumb to get one. I'm trying to be different because normal is broke. How do I keep a relationship with my family if they don't support my decisions around debt? Let me start by saying— This is hilarious. Let me start by saying sometimes, because, you know, we do a question of the day every show. And sometimes I'll look ahead and read the question. But I like surprising myself sometimes because sometimes he's...

1:37:01George Kamel:Came in fresh on this one. Yeah, I did. And, you know, Brady, the answer to your question is how do you tell them no? You simply say no. Okay? I got to believe you're over 18 at least, over 21 maybe even. If they're pressuring you to take on debt, it's not a seven-year-old. Yeah. But I'm just saying the point is you're an adult and you have the ability to say respectfully to your elders, no, I'm not going to do that. And honestly, just saying it like that, there's no disrespect there and you don't need to qualify it honestly in any way. If you want to say, no, I'm not going to do that because I'm paying off debt, you can.

1:37:39But you really don't even need to do that, especially if you know they don't have the same views on debt as you. because if you do qualify it with that, knowing they don't have the same views, the next thing you're going to be having is an argument or some sort of confrontation on why to pay off debt, why you don't need to pay. And it's like, I don't even want to deal with all of that. It's okay to simply say, I'm not going to spend my money on that this time. Move on.

1:38:04George Kamel:I love it. I just love the part where he says, how do I keep a relationship with my family if they don't support? That's crazy. If they end the relationship because you didn't buy a buzzy watch that could go up in value. What type of people are these? I don't understand what this relationship was to begin with. And if they love this so much, why don't they buy it? All the things to feel peer pressure about. I wouldn't expect a pocket watch. I think like, you know, getting offered drugs in high school, not like buying a pocket watch. Yeah, Dare didn't teach me about the pressure I'd feel from people wanting me to go into debt for pocket watches.

1:38:37George Kamel:I just love that it's brother and dad. They're like ganging up on him. If they love it so much, they think it's such a great investment. Why aren't they buying them all up? Yeah, or maybe they'd buy one for you and just gift it to you because, you know, you need to have one so bad. How about this? Let them buy it. You can buy it off of them for a higher price if you love it one day. Yeah. And they can make their money. So the bigger topic here is the idea that when you hang out with Ramsey for long enough and you've decided, you know what, what these knuckleheads are talking about, that kind of makes sense to me, right?

1:39:08This idea of paying off debt, living on less than you make, the borrower is slave to the lender, sacrificing to win, delayed gratification.

1:39:18George Kamel:This is countercultural, controversial behavior. All of this, when you sign up for that, you have to know that everybody's not going to agree with it, and that's okay. You've got to know that people are going to have questions, and that's okay. and I want to say that when you subscribe to this and you actually start doing it, people are going to have questions and they are going to say, oh, like your life looks different. They're going to notice it. You can't do the things that we teach, George, without people noticing it. So if you thought you were going to do it and fly under the radar, George and I are just here to tell you that's not really possible because you're creating a radical change in your life and you cannot create a radical change without it showing.

1:39:57And that's a very, very good thing so absolutely it's good that you're seeing this brady it will offend people if you don't go

1:40:04George Kamel:with the stream when you go upstream it offends them because i think what you think you're better than us jade because you're plant-based yeah that's it that's offensive to me as someone who enjoys eating red meat it's like dude live your life bro you know but there's some reason like if you let's say you uh you drink alcohol a friend who doesn't you go hey man have a drink they go now i'm good they go why they must know exactly why they want to pressure you into it because you don't. It's just like people have their own values, their own principles. Let me give you a hot take. Can I give you?

1:40:32My hot take on that is when the things that you just said, money, maybe drinking, maybe your diet, when people feel the need to press in that type of way, which is kind of more like a negative kind of way, I think that it's usually because you've held up a mirror in front of their face. And so when you're doing, for example - They feel judged. We'll keep it to money. when you're doing the Ramsey principles and you're doing what I'm going to call financially responsible behavior. And you say to, you know, these Jimbronis, Brady's, you know, brother and dad, when you get around them and you say, Hey, I'm paying off debt.

1:41:09I don't want to buy a pocket watch instead of them going and taking a moment to reflect and go, Oh, wow, I've never done something like that. Or I've never prioritized debt like that or that, you know, or just going, Oh, okay. You know, maybe you don't have to have this crazy reaction. Instead, they look at themselves and go, oh, in many ways, and this can happen subconsciously, in many ways, that's far more responsible than the things I'm doing over here. And so rather than reckon with that in the moment, they create a controversy out of it and they create an argument out of it and they start judging you and projecting onto you instead of just going, huh, what a responsible thing this guy who's likely younger than me is doing.

1:41:45And it happens all the time. It's like, I can tell you, start doing well with your money. You start paying off debt. Your lifestyle starts to look different. You go around folks that you've been hanging out around your whole life. And suddenly it's like they have a little bit of haterade, you know, going through their veins. And it's like, well, where did that happen? It's because you're holding up a mirror and you're going, I started doing these actions that are hard to do, but I stuck with it. And maybe in the beginning, you were the one laughing at me for budgeting. And now you're actually seeing it working.

1:42:17And instead of congratulating, you're hating. And if that's you, if you're a hater out there, you need to stop. You need to look at people and get curious about what it is that they're doing instead of judging them. If somebody's driving the car you wish you drove, if somebody's out of the student loan debt that you're still in, if somebody cut up the credit card that you're still ringing up buy now, pay later and door dash on, ask them how they did it. Stop hating on them. It's a bad look and you need to stop.

1:42:44George Kamel:Jane really just told them, check yourself before you wreck yourself. I just, I got upset there for a minute. Some pent up rage in there. I'm sorry. If you wrong Jade, I pity the fool. I'd be running right. I'd be fleeing the country right now. I love you guys, but I'm just telling you the truth. There's my empathy. Yeah. Having worked here now for 13 years, I've heard all the flack and all the judgments and I go, you know what? They don't pay my bills and therefore they don't get a vote. It's that simple. You want to buy me a watch? Great. But you're not going to push me to go into debt to buy something I didn't want to buy in the first place.

1:43:18George Kamel:You know what's an investment? An investment. I love that, George. Investing into the stock market in a mutual fund. Buying a watch is a cute hobby, and if it pays off for you, good for you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you love shoes. I love shoes. You and your husband, Sam, big shoe people. I can't imagine what your closet looks like. I'm nervous to even, would be nervous to even say. You guys would say you're kind of hobbyist collectors. Yes. There's a good portion of money tied up in those shoes. Yes. But you're not doing it as, boy, oh, boy, this is our retirement plan. No. And you earn the right to do it when, to take your phrase, when you eat your vegetables first, then later on you can do the dessert.

1:43:56And it's true. When you walk through the baby steps, you pay off your debt, you do your emergency fund, you do all these things that, again, make you responsibly, a financially responsible adult. Then you get to do the fun things. When he's done paying off his debt and he gets everything set up, I hope he buys as many pocket watches as his budget allows, you know? but today's just not the day to do it and that's the crux of what we teach delayed gratification

1:44:19George Kamel:if you can if you can sacrifice now so you don't have to later because guess what you go into debt for a watch you're going to be making payments on with interest well you're going to sacrifice later with those payments robbing your income and potentially this watch not going up in value and you're going to sell it at a loss and not to be too psychological about this but i think we've all experienced when we bought something before we could truly afford it. And that item speaks to you. It's when you buy the car that you couldn't afford and you've got that$1 ,200 or$850 payment, every time you get in the car, it's reminding you how big of a portion of your budget this is.

1:44:55I'm the thing that's keeping you from investing. I'm the thing that's keeping you from having kids going to college without student loans. I'm the thing keeping you from retiring when you want. They talk to you. So buy it when you can afford it. And then when your things speak to you, they just tell you what a great person you are.

1:45:11George Kamel:That's right. I like my wealth invisible. And that's hard for a lot of people to grasp who are material, who want to be a little showier with their cars and their watches. So no thanks, Jabradys.

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1:46:13George Kamel:One of our favorite things is when people share their stories of how they are winning with money. And we got this great review for EveryDollar I want to share with you guys. Here it is. Just being able to use EveryDollar and see all the extra we had every single month was super motivating. We'd have thousands of dollars extra and just throw it on the mortgage. Boom. That's what happens. The budget is not this boring, static app to make you feel good about the numbers. It's for real life. It's to knock out those payments, to get rid of the mortgage, to fund the vacation or the car upgrade. It reflects your real life.

1:46:44George Kamel:So if you want to check it out for yourself, you want to take control of your money, you want to live like no one else, start Every Dollar for free today. Just go to the App Store or Google Play. Let me coin a new phrase. You know how there's folks out in the space, they don't like the term budgeting? Yeah. And so they'll say like intentional spending plan. I love that's my favorite one. It's so funny. I got one for you. Okay. Cost maxing. Oh, that's good. What do you think? I think that's going to be, I'm going to search TikTok for that Gen Z trend. I like it. Cost maxing. It's like, I care about, I care about my time.

1:47:17I care about my money. I make sure that I have a plan. I don't care what, you know, it's got a vibe to it. It's got a.

1:47:24George Kamel:Cost maxing. It's like, what are you doing with your money? I'm cost maxing. Get on it, Gen Z. make it happen. Give credit to Jade or else she'll come after you. She's feisty this hour. All right. Lauren is up next in Kansas City. What's going on, Lauren? Hi. How are y 'all doing today? Doing great. Okay. So I have recently paid off a credit card and am prepared to close the account. However, my mom and my husband don't think it's a good idea for me to close it. My husband thinks that it will negatively impact my credit score. And then my mom's excuse is you never know when an emergency will come up.

1:48:03So how do I convince them that closing the credit cards as we pay them off is the right move? Well, first off, the only person's opinion that matters here is the husband. You know, it's okay for you to be thinking about what he thinks, but mom, when did she enter the chat.

1:48:20George Kamel:Do you generally take advice from them and live by it? No, not, I mean, no, I'm definitely my own person, but it would be nice to have my husband on board. Yes, I agree with that. It sounds like you guys weren't aligned to begin with on just money values and principles. That is correct. So now this is just a sort of a symptom of a deeper issue, which is fine. We can still deal with that, but he needs to be willing to see your side. And it sounds like he's already pre-decided that he's not changing his mind, that a credit card is a necessary tool in today's America. Right. So that was the case.

1:48:57And then a few days ago when you're all people reached out to me to discuss my question on the show, I started going over the numbers with him and he's like, oh, well, we can pay off all of that by such and such date. And I'm like, oh, okay. That's good. Right. I'll like, okay. But then in my back of my head, it's like, okay, I'll believe it when I see it kind of thing. How long have you been married? Eight years. Eight years. Is this the first time that this has been a goal or has it been a goal before and you guys just never got traction? It's been a goal before and we've never gotten traction.

1:49:33And it's been your idea? It was kind of both of our ideas. I just was more intense about it. Why do you think that is? is it, if you could guess, is it he just doesn't want to get uncomfortable? Is it he doesn't believe the numbers? What facet of it stops him? I think it's just, you know, how a lot of people are controversial about the Dave Ramsey, you don't pay cash for everything. And I think that that's what he's more apprehensive about. So in his mind, at some point you're going to need to use, you're going to need to borrow money at some point. We will for a mortgage. We currently rent, but I don't have any interest in buying a house until we pay off our debt that we have now.

1:50:18True. But if he's thinking now we're getting down to the nitty gritty, because if we can understand, okay, paying off the debt's not the issue for him. For him, the issue is if we pay off everything and close the accounts, that means we can't build a credit score. If we can't build a credit score, that means we can't buy a house. I think that's what's happening in his brain. Right. Okay. So we just need to debunk that, George, and we can win this battle.

1:50:42George Kamel:So do you guys have any other accounts open outside of these credit cards, any debt accounts? Yeah. So I have a student loan. That one is just under$2 ,500. Okay. And then we have two vehicles, and that's what our biggest debt is, is our two vehicles. What's left on those? They're$78 ,000. Goodness gracious. Together? them. That's for, yeah, together. What's your household income?

1:51:16$215.

1:51:16George Kamel:I'm so glad there was a two in the start of that number. I was about to lose it. Okay. This is a solvable problem. He wants to buy a house, right? Is that his stated main financial goal? I think eventually. He just doesn't really see many, like he's not super driven to purchase a house right now. I would like to buy a house. Actually, we might even consider purchasing the house that we're renting right now. See, that's where I think if you guys were aligned on a goal, then the how will be so much easier. Because if you said, hey, our stated goal is we want to buy a house in two years. That's the goal.

1:51:52George Kamel:Three years. What's the best way to get there? Well, getting rid of these car payments would really help us save up more and free up payments so that we have margin to afford the mortgage, right? This is common sense. So as far as the credit score thing goes, in my book, Breaking Free from Broke, I wrote it for guys like your husband to show them our side of the story with data, with humor, in a very logical way, walking through what life is like without a credit score, how to navigate the system, even how to get a mortgage without a credit score, which by the way, Jade and I have both done. And it wasn't that impressive.

1:52:24I listened to you guys talk about it. So I'm like trying to explain to them, like, no, we don't need a credit score to do this. We can do manual underwriting. And they're like, well, what? And I'm like, yeah, they talk about it all the time. So let us explain it again for those watching. And so you can play this back for your husband and we can explain it just in case we, you left something out. It'll make more sense. Oh yeah, I've got my notebook ready. Okay. So manual underwriting, it allows you to get a home loan, but they're looking at other things. Instead of looking at your credit score, they're looking at other lines of credit.

1:52:56Okay. They're looking for things like a phone bill. You can use insurance payments, electric company payments, all of those things. The thing you do have to show though is 12 months of documented rental history. So those are the trade lines that they're looking for instead of looking at just your credit score.

1:53:13George Kamel:Basically on time payments on all of those things will prove to them that you are a sort of less risky borrower. Yeah. So 12 months of documented rental history is what you need. 12 months of other trade lines, like I said, things like cell phones, utilities, insurance. And also they want to see the last 12, your income for the last 12 months. All right. And pay stubs for, you know, at least 30 days is what they're going to want to see. If you're self-employed, they might also ask for your tax returns, but that's it. That's the only difference. And if it makes, what's your husband's name? You can make up a name if you want.

1:53:47So tell Jay, this is what it is. And both Jade and George have done it. And the only reason, here's the thing, you do have to do a little bit of due diligence. Every mortgage company doesn't do manual underwriting, but Churchill Mortgage does. And you can pop on their website and make sure that there's somebody in your area that can help you out and guaranteed that's going to be the case. And so that's probably the only reason he hasn't heard of it because most people do have credit scores and most people, but the truth is there's other options and you need to know what all of your options are.

1:54:20And it's just something that's not talked about as much because most people honestly just aren't in the position to take advantage of it. Right.

1:54:28George Kamel:Lauren, I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. We'll get you the audio book version as well. You and your husband, listen to that, read that. There's two chapters you got to check out, the credit card chapter, that's chapter two, the credit score chapter as well. If you read both of those, it will give you guys the common language now to move forward and then decide what your goals are. But the reality is, I'm not convinced he cares that much about these financial goals. If we're in crippling debt and not really doing much about it, you guys have out earned a lot of these decisions so far, but you should be making way more progress for a couple making over$200 ,000 a year.

1:55:03George Kamel:I want to see you making progress toward that home and not just, well, one day, let's get on paper. Two years from now, we're going to have$100 ,000 saved up. And if monetary, like looking at the numbers, like Georgia said, doesn't work, go to the emotional route. Say, what do you want? Instead of thinking goals based on numbers, think, what do I want to feel? Do I want to feel free? Do I want to feel peace? Do I want to get rid of the shame that I feel every time I swipe our debit card? The shame that I feel every time that I look at our bank account? The shame that I feel when I think of the money that we haven't saved yet, right?

1:55:33Go the emotional route. You might be able to connect there if you're not able to connect on the dollars and cents just yet.

1:56:00George Kamel:People ask me all the time, George, what's your number one money-saving hack? I'm glad you asked. Nothing makes me happier than helping another frugal friend. So here's the hack. Get on a budget. Seriously, how are you supposed to save money if you don't know how much you're spending in the first place? And that's what makes the EveryDollar budgeting app a game changer. With EveryDollar, you'll get a clear picture of your spending, and from there, it's easy to see where you can get more intentional, cut back, and save more money. How much money are we talking? Well, the average EveryDollar budgeter frees up$395 in their very first budget.

1:56:32George Kamel:And if you ask me, I think you're way above average. So why are you still listening to me? Go download EveryDollar for free and start saving more money right now.

1:56:53George Kamel:Our scripture of the day, Philippians 4, 6. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. Mark Twain said, I've had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened. That's a good way to sum up the wasteful use of energy on anxiety. Just future things that probably won't happen. Agreed. Cross that bridge when we get there. All right, Pauline is in Los Angeles up next. What's going on, Pauline? Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm calling to ask about if the money my parents are planning on giving as inheritance, which is about$4 million total in property and money, should go to just me and my sister, or if we should split it up, or if they should split it up four ways between my sister and I and my two children, who are currently, one's 18, one's 23.

1:57:51So my parents are... Go ahead. Yeah, my parents are open to doing whatever we want, and I'm trying to figure out the best arrangement from a financial standpoint for myself, from a financial strength standpoint for myself, and also from a family dynamics point of view with respect to future family cohesion and respect and interaction. My sister is married. She does not have kids. And she and her husband are generally big savers with good paying jobs. And she doesn't tell me how much she has, but I think it's likely in the millions. She doesn't have a problem with my parents splitting their inheritance four ways.

1:58:27So instead of getting two million, she would get one? Exactly. And so her plan is to divide her and her husband's money in the future. when she gives her, you know, when they pass on between his nephew and my two kids equally, and then save, you know, give 10 % to a special needs family member. Um, but, um, whose parents themselves are also well off, but I've lived my life, uh, good amount of hardship, a lot of challenges in my life, including a lot of medical stuff. So medical and education bills, and we rented in a high cost of living area for my kid's school. We didn't save as much as they did.

1:59:05And, And I want to stop you real quick. I want to stop you real quick. The money that is available, the four million, what I want to what I don't want you to do is say my life was like this and my sister's life was like this. Therefore, I'm more entitled to this. I don't want you to say that. I'm not saying that. OK, I'm just kind of trying to paint a picture of like so my husband and I saved less than they did because we didn't have kids. Sure, but all those are your choices. All those are your choices. We need to look at this clearly and just go, what's fair? Because the truth is you're both siblings and you're both your parents' children, right?

1:59:47So it's like, okay, we're on equal ground from that point forward. And I think that's the fairest way to look at it because everybody will have made choices in their life to get them to a certain point. You see what I'm saying? And neither of you are disrespectful or irresponsible. responsible so as long as we know that that's true I think we have to look at you guys as totally even fair enough yes yes so you know she's fine with you know my kids getting the the money and splitting it four ways and so I'm kind of you know and I'm happy I'm fine with that too for the kids more kids more of the money to come to me and my kids but I'm kind of trying to think about the consequences of that as I see it and also think about consequences that I'm not seeing right now would it go into a trust for the kids i imagine it would go into a trust for them and then my parents would put in like the rules that they would want for what when they can when the grandkids can access that um but you know it's still a million dollars less for me and my my sister and so i mean ultimately it's going to end up like all this delayed gratification that i've already done to save money and we've saved about 1.8 million so far my husband and i Way to go.

2:00:56You have to do more to let... Thanks. I mean, it could have been a lot more, but medical expenses, education bills, all of that, you know, kept us from doing that. But, you know, I don't own my home. I don't, you know, I don't have to drive a nice car. Here's the thing. What? Here's the thing. I don't think that you should be making this decision. I think your parents should make this decision, and then I think they should inform you. They are asking us. And I think it's unfair of them to put that pressure on you to decide.

2:01:26George Kamel:Because it just creates a real weird family dynamic. Well, it's become a communal. Well, everybody's cool with it, though. But they are today. They are today. But if something changes, I don't know. And I'm not projecting anything negative. All I'm simply saying is that's how everybody feels today. If something were to change and somebody's opinion were to change, let's say your sister, their situation changed. Somebody lost a job. They came on a hard time. Right? Right. Suddenly a decision that should have been your mom and dad's to say, here's the way it is. Now it becomes your fault. And now they're looking at you going, well, can we have access back to some of that money?

2:02:03Because this happened and that happened. So there's a cleanliness. But they've saved millions. They've already. I mean, she won't tell me how much you say, but they don't have. Who cares how much. Here's the thing, Pauline.

2:02:14George Kamel:By the time you guys pass away, you're going to have a four million dollar inheritance to give to your kids. right yeah i think your parents should decide this and you think it'll only be four million i'm hoping there'll be more it'll be more i'm just saying i'm just saying like let's not start but well they have more they save more so maybe it feels more fair i would just go you know what guys it's your decision what i don't want to do is give an 18 year old a million dollars if they should pass away tomorrow so if you choose to give them the money please make sure you know if you if you say to them hey if you decide to give the kids money we're grateful but if you could just make sure the trust doesn't hit until, I don't know, age 30.

2:02:49Whatever you decide. Yeah,

2:02:50George Kamel:you can say, hey, you can use this much for education at 25. They have access to 25 % of it. They can use this much for a down payment on a house. And a good estate planning attorney will walk you guys through the right way to structure it so that it doesn't destroy their lives. That's the goal here. But let the final word come from mom and dad and make sure the whole family knows that. The way this needs to happen is everybody needs to be in a room. Your sister, I don't know how old your kids are if they're too young they don't need to be there but you and your sister and your mom and dad and your mom and dad need to be the adults and the grown-ups and saying we have four million dollars and here's what's going to be done with it and here's why we made this decision and it all needs to come from them that way once they're off this earth there's none of that coming back on you or your family or your kids because the truth is you just don't know what can happen and I agree with George they never should have put you in this decision to decide when it had the ability to pull away from your sister and what their family also could receive.

2:03:50Okay, that actually does make me feel a little better. So I could probably just say, listen, this would be my preference, but you guys do what you want to do. And then she could give her preference and then they can decide. Yep, yep. You guys could all sit down with an estate planning attorney.

2:04:03George Kamel:You guys can have a sit down meeting with an estate planning attorney and go, hey, what would happen if we did this? Let's walk out of the scenario. Okay, what would happen if we did this? What are the tax implications? What have you seen work well for families? I would just get more information before making this decision. And I think your parents right now probably haven't thought a whole lot about it. And they just go, hey, whatever the kids want's fine. I don't think it's malicious, but I think it's a lot. I can tell that you feel this pressure bubbling up. It's like a pressure cooker right now of what you think you should do.

2:04:34I was more worried about like if the kids get a million each when they're 30 or whatever, that I'm going to have less money than to be like the matriarch of the family and give them the things I dreamed about giving them. Let's all go on a fabulous trip. You can do that. I'm going to buy you guys this stuff.

2:04:48George Kamel:Here's the thing. Because I'll have less money. Just think about it this way. If you never got this inheritance from your family, let's say your parents ended up needing it or used it all, would you still be okay? Yeah. Could you still take them on that trip? Yeah, I could. I'd just have to find ways to save. It wouldn't be a lavish lifestyle that I'd be living in longer. I mean, you guys already have a$2 million net worth, right? I suppose. How old are you? I'm behind. 46. Okay, you're 46 with$2 million. You were in like the top 1%. I don't know who told you you're behind. I know you feel like, I think you have baggage and guilt from the mistakes you've made in the past.

2:05:23George Kamel:I think so too. But Pauline, you're doing so good. and by the way who said it had to be split equally four ways i mean if if they did ask your opinion what if it was you know uh two million to you a million to your sister and you know 500 and 500 to your you know it doesn't have to be four ways there's a lot of questions that can be asked but either way if they want to know some of your thoughts i'm fine with them asking some of your thoughts but they need to be the ones that totally decide and uh yeah this should be a blessing not a burden. They made it a burden when they tossed it over to her.

2:05:55George Kamel:Yeah, that's the thing. You know, when it comes to inheritance and family, it just, things get so tense. There's so many zeros on the end. There's so much pressure to do it the right way. Well, then she's forced to ask, to ask herself, well, who deserves what? And that's a horrible, like now she's asking herself questions and making comparisons she probably never wanted to make in order to try to figure this out. That's not her job. And I mean, they could live another 20 years. I don't know how old they are, the state of their health. And so you've got to think if this never happens, if they use the money because there's a health crisis, they're in a long-term, you know, stay somewhere.

2:06:26George Kamel:You got to think about that too. So never plan on it, but let's at least be thoughtful in the way we do it. And that's where a good estate planning attorney comes into play.