Face the Debt You’ve Been Avoiding

24:43So, oh man, where to begin? See if I can summarize this quickly. Basically, we had an emergency. We were renting from my grandpa. My baby got lead in her blood, so we had to vacate quickly. She's okay. We caught it in time, thank God. but we're living with the in-laws and have been for about six months now and you know I know that throws red flags for people when I talk about it but it hasn't been terrible but now it's getting to the point where we're really just itching for our own space sure and we're not really sure what next steps to take I've been working my way through baby step three trying to get to a twenty thousand dollar emergency fund that's three to six months expenses for us roughly and that's me being extremely hard on myself.

25:31I was trying to consider, you know, roughly$1 ,000 a month for a potential payment on something. Is that stupid? Is it stupid? I mean, I don't think so. It depends on, I mean, how much margin do you guys have? How much do you make a month? I make roughly$3 ,900 a month. And my wife stays at home. She doesn't work. We have no debts. And I'm at about$4 ,000 in the emergency fund, but we're nearing that threshold of desperation where we really just want our own space again. Sure. No, I hear you. So in your area, would you guys be able to find something for$1 ,000,$1 ,200? dollars um maybe uh we're we're looking we're trying to we're looking at rent homes um but my boss is also offered he has offered me a owner finance situation no no no no no don't do that don't do that see and that was what i thought too because then if something happens and you lose your job you lose your house you lose that just don't do that don't go down that don't cross those streams like the Ghostbusters, dude.

26:48Okay. Let your boss just remain your boss. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad you guys... It's a generous offer. I'm sure he's trying to help you out, but don't tangle things up even further that way because untangling that just becomes a nightmare. Okay. Travis, what do you do for a living? I work in doors and hardware. I do... We do commercial for schools and stuff. Okay. Okay. And do you have kids? I have one daughter. She's, yeah, she's about a year old. Okay. So for you guys, I mean, if you're looking to move out, we always say that your rent should be no more than 25 % of your take-home pay or your mortgage.

27:29And so for you guys, I mean, that's$1 ,000 to$1 ,200, right, if you kind of go a little bit above that. So I would want to stay within those parameters, which means you're going to have$3 ,000 left to live on. Have you guys done a monthly budget? Well, I guess, I mean, you obviously don't have rent or utilities and all of that. But I would kind of do a mock budget and just say, okay, if we were to move somewhere, what do we think everything's going to cost? And list out everything you guys spend money on in the month and see if you can get it within that. But, I mean, it has to be within the$3 ,000.

28:06Ideally, it would be less than that so that you can continue to save and get your emergency fund built up. Because you guys have, what,$4 ,000 in there, you said? Roughly, yes. Okay. After living with your in-laws for six months, how have you only been able to save$4 ,000?

28:22Well, there were some complications for, like, my wife had some medical stuff she had to deal with postpartum. Okay, great. I'm glad y 'all were able to take care of that stuff. That's good. Yeah, yeah. And then there's been, like, here and there, I've had to buy new work boots and new tools because I just started in this job less than four months ago. Oh, wow. Do you see a raise coming anytime soon, Travis? There's potential for one. This company is fairly new, so we're growing. Okay. And I think I'm just trying to find my groove within the ranks. Are you 40 hours with them? I'm close to 50 hours, but I'm salary.

29:02I make roughly about$900 a week. And like I said, my wife doesn't work, but I'm also starting to take on side jobs because I'd really like to start my own business. Yeah, that's great. Honestly, if you get that going, you'll probably make more than what you're doing now, which is awesome. Rachel, tell me if I'm wrong here. What I hear with you, brother, is simply put, you all have a math problem. Okay. And you have a value in your home that you want your wife to stay at home. You all want her to stay at home. You want to work with this new company and get them off the ground, and you're working 50 hours a week, but you're making about as much as if you went to become a manager at a Starbucks.

29:45And so you're not making 50 grand a year, right? Right. No, not quite. And so you've got these competing values that you all are trying to stretch out, But the math is y 'all can't afford to live out on your own, which tells me you and your wife have to go back and say, OK, which one of these values that we've laid out? If six months for one year, for two years, we're going to pause on so that we can get ahead for the future. But this is moments when people make desperate situations. Yeah, this is where the baby stays with the in-laws and she works for three days a week. Yeah, totally. I mean, you find ways to earn this, especially to get you guys to a point that you have your emergency fund.

30:25And then by that time, hopefully you've gotten a few raises and time has passed and your income's gone up. Some good side hustle jobs. Yes, but in the meantime, John's right. You guys have an income problem, Travis. So a creative way to fix that is what I'd be looking for.

30:52Owning a business can be a heavy load. You want to serve your customers well, make a healthy profit, and grow. And your team, family, and customers are all counting on you. And now everybody's talking about AI like it's magic. And you're wondering how to keep up. You're carrying a lot, but you don't have to do it all alone. That's where NetSuite comes in. Over 43 ,000 businesses, including Ramsey Solutions, use NetSuite to lighten the load by bringing all their numbers into one system. accounting, inventory, CRM, payroll, the works. And now NetSuite's AI takes it further, automating busy work, flagging inventory issues, spotting cash flow problems in real time, and catching risks before they hit.

31:37So you're not just closing the books faster, you're making decisions confidently. And when your numbers are right, that takes a lot of pressure off your shoulders. And yeah, switching systems is a big move. But NetSuite's sweet success process gets you up and running fast. Go to NetSuite.com slash Ramsey for a free product tour and to schedule time with a NetSuite rep. That's NetSuite.com slash Ramsey.

32:24So there's certain elements of money that I would say each of us as hosts have a thing that we're just like, that is so annoying. Like whatever it is, right? Dave's is always people that can't find a job. He's always like, I don't know how people don't work for six months. Like I'd go, I'd go like cut yards. Like I would do something, right? Like he, like, we all kind of have our thing. My thing for, for some reason, John, more and more and more, it's sports betting. I find it so annoying. Like I hate it. You find it annoying. It is like, it is getting under my skin more and more. The bros that are in all the app.

33:01Now that I know, I'm like, we're watching football and it's like every commercial is an app for sports betting. The amount of money that's going into it and the target audience is a bunch of freaking like 20, 30 year old dudes for the most part they have a chart and i'm just like and they're all complaining that they can't afford house and i'm like oh my gosh like y 'all are so y 'all are annoying it's annoying i hate i hate it the sports betting world and so i i hate it because it's predatory yes that yes and i hate it because of the way the the playbook is just it's like an old school after school special like the first joint is free right and it's like your first bets are free and it's like it's such an old school playbook but it's so predatory rope you in yeah and you keep betting and then they prop bet you it's like hey will his shoe fall off in the fourth quarter and and you can't get stupidest stuff it just latches into every nook and cramp people get in such trouble with it and that's what's so frustrating that's why i hate it because it's it's like i love i love watching the fights with somebody and they're like dude should i put 10 bucks on it i love that that's funny that's like Yes, that's like old school, just like, hey, we're sitting around.

34:10I bet on a horse for steeplechase. Right. Yeah. When it goes from fun to, hey, I bet we can make a bunch of money to, I bet we could get a whole generation hooked on this to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. And then we talk to their spouses who have lost everything or we talk to them and they can't go to school. They can't get a job. It's so destructive. Yes. Nah, I hate it. Okay. OK, so as the Super Bowl is approaching, an article came out in ESPN and said that approximately one point seven six billion dollars is expected to be bet on the Super Bowl this year. It's the highest. It's a twenty seven percent increase year over year.

34:53So it's getting worse and worse. One point seven billion dollars in sports betting for the Super Bowl. I'm like, I think we could like cure clean water. Like, I feel like we could use this money and like help a lot of people. You know what I mean? I'm just like, oh, or help your families. Help yourselves. I don't know. So much good could be done. I just, I can't, I can't do it. Yep. And Bill Miller, who's the president of AGA, said that no single event brings fans together like the Super Bowl. And this record figure shows just how much Americans enjoy sports betting as a part of the experience.

35:26That's like, that's like sitting outside of a methadone clinic and being like, nothing brings people into a long line. It just shows, it's like so not true. Not true. The destruction and all of it and all the, I'm like, oh my gosh, please take your money and fund your Roth IRA, 27 year old, please. Yes. Take half the money, buy some great nachos and then put the other bit of that money, pay your credit card off this month. Just say, I'm about to bet on the game. I'm going to pay my credit card off. I'm going to do something smart with my money. Oh, sports betting, the bros. It used to be the crypto bros that bothered me.

36:05It's now the sports betting bros. I can't do it. The next segment, we'll talk about the women that drive me crazy. We can. We won't. We for sure won't. It's all the... Yes. For sure we won't. All the essential oils. You know what I mean? That's what we always do. Everyone has their thing. But the sports betting man. Oh, my gosh. We'll bet the Super Bowl. Yep. Coming up. Yep. We're going to... You're going to see it. Don't bet. Don't bet on it if you haven't already. Save your money. Save your money. Save your money. All right, let's go to Cincinnati. We have Amber on the line. Hi, Amber. Welcome to the show.

36:41Hello. How are you guys doing? Hi, we're doing great. How are you? I'm doing well. I just had a question. I know you guys always talk about, you know, like whole life insurance policies and how they're not great. Well, some life insurance policies. Okay. Term life is awesome. Yes, yes. Yes. So we have a term life policy, and both of us have policies, obviously, through our employers, too. And we've done a good job with the term life, making sure we have kids and making sure that they're taken care of. God forbid something would happen. But the question I have is my husband was, I guess you could say gifted.

37:19A family member, when he was a little kid, bought him a whole life insurance policy. Yep. And he still has it. I think the value of it is like$40 ,000 or$50 ,000 or something like that if something would happen. And he's never paid anything for it. Now what's happening is the annual premium, which looks like it's about$88 or something like that, it just comes out of the interest that's earned. So he's just kind of kept it. I go the route of, well, do we cash it out and then invest it? You know, or I mean, heck, even, you know, in our high yield savings account, the money's there. You know what I mean?

37:59Yes. Yes. I guess we're having that constant debate on what is the right thing to do with this. And I think he's going on the cautious side. But I'm like, we have term life. We have life insurance through our, you know. Yes. You're covered. How long is your term life for? What's what's the policy? It goes all the way up until we both retire. Okay. Because at that point, we will be in a good situation. I mean, our kids will be graduated from college. You know what I mean? We'll be in a different situation. Cash it out today. Cash it out today. You were right. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Your hunch was right.

38:32You can tell your husband that we said you were right. Okay. That felt good, Amber. I would cash out for the end of the day. Yeah. And you'll just forfeit the death benefit and all of that, and you'll pay some taxes and all of it. But what you get out of it, though, it literally if you just put that in the market and we don't know what the market's going to do this year. But I mean, in the past few years, some some years it's been like 20 percent. Like it's crazy what the returns have been in there. And like you said, or even sitting in a high yield savings account earning three and a half percent.

39:01Like anything is better than this, because what they sit there and do is try to mix your investments and insurance. And they try to bundle it all together. And it actually is even though you aren't necessarily paying for it here that you're paying out of the interest. But it's expensive. It's a horrible investment. You could be making so much more out in the market. And so I would. I would take this$40 ,000 for sure, drop it into like an index fund or go to Vanguard or, you know, put it in a – I like it. You put it in a high-yield savings account. Like the way you were thinking about it is the way I would think about it.

39:31Yeah. I'm just thinking that extra cushion. Yes. We have a cushion, but even more cushion. Yes. And then it would be something you could actually use. They dangle that death benefit out in front of you, and then they take your money, and they invest that in the market. Yeah. And then they make the spread. I think his thing is always just, God forbid something would happen to him. He wants to make sure that he and the boys are taken care of. Yeah, he has term life insurance. Is that$50 ,000 going to change your life? If he passed away today, would that$50 ,000 be what makes or breaks you? No. I mean, the term is going to pay for the house, you know, pay for everything.

40:12I mean, we're we've got plenty. Yes. We don't owe anything besides just a little bit left on our house. OK. How old are you guys? How old are you, Amber? I'm 47. 47. OK. I'm just like just doing a quick calculation. If you just put it in right now, just in the market and you just didn't touch it until you were 67, it'd be$435 ,000. and that's not adding anything that's just put it move like what John said if you just moved it from one account to the other today and then just left it you got almost half a million in there so well and typically I guess this is the debate we keep going on well it is making money you know what I mean like and I'm like well not a lot he's had it since he's a child yeah for the steward he's had it since he's a child it's only$40 ,000 it is making money it's making money for them not for y 'all because how old is he?

41:08very true how old is he? he's 52 okay and when did they open this? when he was like two years old? I have no clue but seriously think about that let's just say let's say he did let's say they did because a lot of family members will do this a grandparent or someone will a child is born I think he was more like later in life you know what I mean? like maybe a teenager or something like that let's just say yeah 12 years old 40 years It's$40 ,000. It's terrible. It's shameful that someone would call that an investment product and look at you and say, you're going to be winning here. In 20 years, you'd have almost half a million, right?

41:46It is a ripoff. Whole life insurance, you guys, it's terrible. It is terrible. So get term, which you guys have, Amber. It's inexpensive. You get it. You set it 15, 20 years, whatever you need. And then whatever you would have paid for whole life, just invest the difference there and you're going to come out spades ahead. So, yeah, Amber, you are right. I'm happy to say it. So there you go. Most people just drift through life with their money. No plan, no budget, stuck on autopilot. But winning with money is intentional. That's why I love Fairwinds Credit Union. They've built tools for people who don't want gimmicks or games.

42:28Their smart bundle includes a high-yield savings account to help your emergency fund grow, and their spend smart checking account won't nickel and dime you to death with fees like other banks. Plus, it comes with the Ramsey Be Weird debit card, which says, Debt is normal. Be weird. Right on the front of it. It keeps you connected to your budget, and every time you use it, it's a reminder. You control your money, not the other way around. Fairwinds Credit Union is for people who are serious about taking control of their money. So if you're ready to stop drifting and start building wealth on purpose, open your smart bundle today at fairwinds.org slash Ramsey.

43:14That's fairwinds.org slash Ramsey, insured by the NCUA.

43:32Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Rachel Cruz, hosting today with Dr. John Deloney. So give us a call at 888-825-5225. Up next, we have Cameron in Phoenix, Arizona. Hi, Cameron. Welcome to the show. Hi, Rachel. How are you? Hi, we're doing great. How can we help today? So I am$74 ,000 in debt, and I have two jobs, and I used to be$131 ,000 in debt two years ago, and now I'm 74. Look at you, girl. That's like 60 grand. I know. It's been really hard. I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease a year ago. Oh, my gosh. And it's been kind of getting worse over the last couple of months.

44:23And I'm trying to figure out, should I keep working? I've been working my butt off paying about$2 ,000,$2 ,500 every month towards the debt. And I'm struggling to work. Like, I'm having issues every day. And I love what I do. Like, I love both my jobs. My bosses are amazing. Yeah. And I just want to know, everyone's been telling me, you should work less. You should work less. and I just, I don't know what to do, honestly. Yeah, what do you do for, what are your two jobs? So my first job, I'm a claims associate and then my second job, I'm a retention specialist for a middle-sized insurance agency.

45:01Okay, okay. Which job pays the most? My nine to five, my claims role. Your claims, okay. And then how much overtime are you working with the other job? I don't get overtime, I only get salary and then I get 21 an hour at my second job. You're doing the other one. Okay, okay. And how many hours do you work that extra job? So I work an additional, so I work from anywhere between 16 to 22 hours every week. With them on top of the 40. So you're working 60 hours. Cameron, this is going to sound bananas. Can I tell you I'm proud of you? not not for working yourself to where you have like like a like a chronic illness not that but like you've been working really hard doing whatever it takes and i want to applaud you thank you that's pretty impressive it's really really impressive are you single it's been so hard i know i am engaged okay um and i've been working so hard I also have been battling bipolar disorder, and I've been doing all the work going to therapy, talking to my psychiatrist, doing all the medications, and that's been extremely tumultuous as well.

46:16And the hardest part is that sometimes the Crohn's medicine messes with the bipolar medicine. And it's just been really hard. Everyone keeps telling me, work less, work less. But I'm like, I want to be debt-free. And they're like, you should live, you should live. And I'm just like, I just don't want to have any of this debt. Well, there's a middle ground there. There's a middle ground. When people say, you should just live, like, often people have in their mind, like, beach vacation and just eat whatever you want. I was going to ask what that means. Yes, yes. For you, just live means, like, I want the world to hear your story.

46:50And I especially want this guy who's won the lottery getting to marry you and your community who gets to interact with you. You're close to, like, pushing your body over a threshold where it says, I quit. and so I want you just to live. I mean that for real. Do you hear what I'm saying? Not YOLO, but I want you to be healthy and okay.

47:17This is really hard. I know. I would much rather you take six months and just work one of the jobs, even if you have to take a medical leave or whatever, take six months and exhale so that you can come back stronger. I've met with guys who train Olympic athletes, and they say the hardest part about training an Olympic athlete is getting them to rest. Getting them to let their bodies recover, and your body is systematically saying, hey, this is a heavy, heavy load. And so I want to applaud you for going all in, and I also want you to hear me and Rachel say how proud of you we are, and we want you to listen to your body so that you can cross the finish line, not in a casket, to be frank, but cross the finish line with your arms held high, right?

48:08It's just so hard because I just don't, I just, I know I'm, I just, I just want to take responsibility and get it done. And I just, I used to blame, before I used to just blame everyone else about all my problems. And when I finally figured out that I was the, you know, the problem, I started to, I just wanted to start working on it. And so every day. Oh, you are, you are. You are. But taking some time to make sure your body's healthy, that's you continuing to take ownership of you. Yeah. And Kimra, I do want to give you that permission that people that call in and they have even a child who's sick and their attention has to be on that or themselves.

48:47Like there are moments to pause baby step two to take care of yourself or someone around you. Okay? So that is what we tell people. Okay? Getting out of debt is very important. but it's not literal life and death. We make it sound like that on the show a lot because we want to be so extreme to be able to get it. But it's really, you don't even need it. Taking care of Cameron is really important. And I'm not worried about you being lazy or not doing anything, right? It's not, you're not calling us up being like, I work 15 hours a week and it's just too much. And we're like - No, you want to work one 50 hour a week job.

49:19Good grief. Yes. Right? That's awesome. I mean, like you're doing great. And if you need to just, and I know it's frustrating because you have momentum And what's hard to Cameron, I can hear it, is like mentally you are so strong. You're like, I see this and this is what I want. My mind wants to go here, but my body's not letting me. And it's usually the opposite for people. They're body able to do whatever, able bodied, but they don't have the mindset. But you got it, girl. So taking care of your body is not going to ruin this whole thing. It's not. it's just I'm so I'm so scared to just losing that extra income to you like just I haven't I've been doing it for so long and paying so much it's just I'm scared too because my bills feel like they're so high even like I just like I've so much and I just when I look at like my budget I'm like okay so I will only have like a thousand left if I just had my main job and I wouldn't be to put, and that's all I would have after bills.

50:20Sure. What's left Cameron of the, of the 74 ,000? What kind of debt is it? So I have, um, five, about$5 ,000 of credit cards left. Um, two personal loans. They're about, one is 2 ,600. The other is 6 ,000. Um, what's at 4 ,800? Excuse me. I've been paying double the payment for it. Then I have a car. So I have a Tesla Model Y I pay. So that's$25 ,000. Okay. And then I have two repos that are on my credit that I've been wanting to get settled there. One is$19 ,000. The other is$13 ,000. and then that's it. Okay. And that's all I have right now. Okay. Are you saying... I'm sorry, IRS debt of$5 ,000.

51:20Oh, okay. Okay. We may move that up to the front just to get that out of the way. Have you... You said you're paying extra on that personal loan of the$6 ,000. Are you paying extra on everything? On everything. So I'm putting... So for my loan for the IRS is$131 ,000, but I pay$300 ,000. Okay. So what I want you to do, Cameron, I want you to list back out all of your debts and I want you to just do if you just did the minimum payment on everything and you put everything towards the IRS debt. I want that momentum to be building because you're kind of spreading everything out, which is amazing. And you've done a fantastic job.

51:55I just want more intensity focused on each one. And so pay minimum payments on everything and pay the smallest one off first. And you got this, Cameron. We are we are here. Call us back if you need any more help because we are cheering you on.

52:19This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Sometimes it seems like everyone else's love life is this perfect little hallmark movie. Here's the truth. Married, dating, or single and trying to figure it out, everyone is wrestling with what it means to be in a relationship. I've been married for 23 and a half years. I've got a PhD. My wife has a PhD. and we have all the answers and we're still trying to figure out how to keep our marriage on track. Both of us have benefited greatly from time with a good therapist. No matter if you've just met someone or if you've been married forever like I have, therapy can help you find your way in a relationship.

52:56Identify what you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some pressure off yourself and build a strong relationship. To do all of this, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and your preferences. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions through the platform. And if the first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch anytime at no extra cost. When it comes to love and relationships, everyone is still finding their way. Find yours with my friends at BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Ramsey to get 10 % off your first month.

53:31That's betterhelp.com slash Ramsey.

53:53all right let's go to Philadelphia and we have Janelle on the line hi Janelle hi Rachel hi John How are you guys? Hi, we're doing great. How can we help today? So I am currently going through a divorce. And my question is, what would be the best way to buy my ex-man-child spouse out of my home? Shots fired! Just a burn! Oh my gosh. You talk about sports betting. Oh, is he one of those? Typical. Sports betting, marijuana, video games. Stop it. What a man child. We were married for six years. When I met him, he was working full time. I started going to nursing school and I kind of continued. I went for my bachelor's and then along the course of, I think, our third kid, like when our third kid came, I figured it would be easier for me to pick up an extra shift or two as a nurse than have him work.

55:02So I regretted, I'm regretting having him become a stay-at-home dad because that was like the end of it. And every time I asked him to start working again afterwards, there was an excuse. And now we're at this point and he kind of hit the jackpot. Let me free you from this. you didn't cause that in him. Okay? Don't hold that. That's a man, that's a father of three kids choosing to not get up and co-support his family. Yeah. I was actually, well, he's not that you need to know this, but he actually adopted my oldest son and so I, you know, in the beginning everything seems good and I was getting out of a very abusive relationship who I had a child with and it just kind of ended up, you know.

55:57Well, we'll walk you through what to do with your money, but I want to set you free from that today. Thank you. I really, I needed to hear that. Every husband, every father needs to go get a job. Yeah. I kept saying I was married to three people, him and my in-laws, because anytime there was an argument, his mom would say, what's going on? She would come to the house. It was just like, it was the worst. You're not married to a mad child. It's like an actual child child. I can't even make it up. Yeah. And yeah, and they're paying for his lawyer and we're going to be going through custody battles and he thinks he needs 50-50 custody, but he doesn't really support them.

56:41He works as a part-time janitor. As of the week he filed for divorce, he finally went back and got a job for four hours a day. Well, all the text messages you've sent him over the years saying, please get a job, all that will come out in discovery. So just work out on that process here. Let's get you to the house. Tell us your house situation. Yeah. Okay. So I have to buy him out because I was kind of guilted into putting his name on the house that I paid for. He did not put a dollar towards, but marital debt. Yeah, totally. Well, and I'll give you that freedom, too, that we would tell people when you're married, right, even if one spouse stays home, you both right so you that was not that was not wrong of you okay I hear the frustration because you put it is frustrating yeah but that was not necessarily a wrong move yes okay okay yeah but but to your point he has that he has 50 percent of that asset too yeah so I we we just went to um the this divorce hearing and I and I owe him about 48 ,800 and some dollars okay um The house is worth$255 as of the last appraisal, and I owe$139 on it, or$138.

57:58Okay. So since this whole thing started, I've been stacking up. I was hustling to pay off one of our personal loans because I knew that was going to come up, and that would look good for me when this happened. So I paid off a$16 ,000 personal loan we had as marital debt. I paid my lawyer over$10 ,000 and set aside about$18 ,000. So I have cash, and I don't know if it's better. Oh, also I have to pay him alimony. So I have 15 and a half months of alimony, which is probably going to be about$1 ,000 a month when he moves out, which he hasn't yet. So should I save this cash as, like, just to reserve my alimony payments so I don't have to worry about that when the time comes?

58:48No, how much are you making a month? $6 ,000 plus. So I'm a nurse practitioner. I bring home$6 ,000 a month. And I do have a side, Dave would call it a hobby, where I do medical aesthetics, Botox, and fillers. And that can bring home, depending on how much I do it, like$1 ,000 to$6 ,000 a month. And I'm just doing it really part-time because I was a kid. Oh, good. Would you say like$2 ,000 would probably be average just for calculation purposes? Yeah, yeah. It has been since I started doing it about two years ago. Good for you. Yeah, there's some cash in that. That's great. Good for you, Janelle.

59:26Okay, so how much will the mortgage be that you're, if you keep the house, how much will the mortgage be? Without his$48 ,000, but just in general, how much is the payment? Well, it depends. I mean, right now it's$13.64 a month. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then if you add, well, I don't, should I go ahead? Well, I was going to say, if you add in his, that 48 ,000, if you buy him out and just tack that onto your mortgage, as long as that payment doesn't get up to 2000, which I don't think it, I don't think it will. I don't have, I'm not able to do the calculations right here, but calculate it out to say, okay, if I add that 48 ,000 to the 138, calculate out what that mortgage payment would be.

1:00:11Because I don't want your mortgage payment to be more than 25 % of your take-home pay because at that point, Janelle, you probably can't afford the house. But honestly, I think you might be okay. And especially if you kind of commit for a period of time to doing the side hustle stuff that you can. Because if that can bring in six grand a month extra, I'm like, holy crap. That was probably my best month. And it's... Well, even five grand, four grand. I mean, do you know what I mean? The two grand that I just calculated as like a rough, that's more on the conservative side. But even... How much do you have in cash right now?

1:00:42I have about$18 ,000 to set aside. But that's the thing. Is it better to refinance the house or take out HELOC? I know you're not going to say HELOC. No, I wouldn't do that. A personal loan for that? Normally we would say don't borrow to buy your partner out. But when it comes to home ownership,$48 ,000 is a small number. Yeah, and if that payment is still low enough, I would be comfortable with that. because majority because i'll be honest janelle i'd say 90 of the calls we get in the situation and the wife the mom wants to keep the home she can't afford it you know and so i would most of the time we tell them that they have to end up selling it but honestly with the numbers you're giving me i might but i want you to recalculate it if you just go to um ramsey solutions.com we have a mortgage calculator you can kind of plug some of this stuff in um but again i don't want your payment more than 25 of your take-home pay because you're going to have that then you're going to have alimony for 15 months and some stuff is going to start stacking up.

1:01:39And I don't want this house to pay for childcare too. Yes. So I don't want this. Um, yeah, I don't want this house to be a burden, right? Like it's not worth it. It's worth having all the chaos you guys are going through to have peace. And I don't want financial stress on you. Okay. One of the hardest things we have to tell folks in your situation on a regular basis is I want you to put on the table as hard as this would be, what if I sold this house? Right. And I do in the future plan on doing that. But I just want to get started. If you plan on doing that, I would really think twice about doing it now.

1:02:16Okay. Because listen, what you're trying to do for you and the kids is to minimize how different your life is now. And I would go ahead and just metabolize. It's 100 % different. The life you had is over. okay and if you think from that it sounds stark right but if you sit if you think okay the life i had is over what do i want this new one to look like would i go buy this house with these memories and share that bed at this price probably not okay or would you go rent for a year it's going to be inconvenient you're gonna have to call somebody to help you move it's gonna be a huge pain in the butt but i'm gonna start and then the rent is going to be 2400 minimum yeah it'll be expensive.

1:02:58There's no question. Yeah. There's no question. I thought about that too. Yeah. So I think it's kind of making that call Janelle for you from that, from that perspective, from a mental perspective, do you want to be walking back in those, that front door every day, right? Like, is that, how is that for you? And then do this calculation. So those are the two big questions that, that I want you to kind of discover on your own and you can, but you're smart and gosh, I'm, I'm so sorry of what you're going through.

1:03:28Thank you.

1:03:40You already know the power of generosity and the best gifts make an impact now and eternally That's what pre-born does, and you can trust them to do it well. They don't just offer free ultrasounds. They support pregnancy clinics across the country with ultrasound machines, training, grants, and evangelism tools. They're faithful with each dollar so moms in crisis can see the life in their wombs. And hear the truth that brings eternal life. Because here's the thing. When a mom sees her baby on that ultrasound screen, she chooses life 80 % of the time. And your gift of just$28 covers the cost of one ultrasound.

1:04:24Or if you're able, you can purchase an ultrasound machine through Preborn and have it placed in one of their clinics so women will choose life for years. Your donation brings hope and truth when mothers feel alone and fear is loud. So I'm asking you to give to Preborn today. Even just$28 to provide one ultrasound. Go to preborn.com slash Ramsey or call 855-601-2229 because every baby saved is more than a life preserved. It's a life changed. That's preborn.com slash Ramsey.

1:05:18If you're working the baby steps and you want the best and fastest way to do it, you need to be using EveryDollar. So it's more than just a budgeting app because it's a built-in of your entire money picture. So the whole plan is built into this app. And you can track your progress, get personalized recommendations. You can get coaching actually for your specific situation. and it's going to help you move the progress of the plan so much faster. So if you want someone walking with you every single day during all of this, just like we would be here on the show, then make sure to download EveryDollar.

1:05:53It is free. You can download it in the App Store or Google Play. All right, let's go to New Orleans, and we have Brandy on the line. Hi, Brandy. Hi. Hello, hello. Welcome to the show. How can we help? Hi, I'm calling. I am an average listener. My husband and I are on board. We are paying off debt and we are super gazelle intense. Good for you guys. I'm excited. Good. I have a$96 ,000 tax debt left over from my late husband. Ooh, whoa. Yeah, yes, yes. And I went to a company in around June. and started a fresh start program. What is that? Like a tax debt relief? Exactly. Oh, man. Exactly. The name of the company is Better Tax Relief.

1:06:46Oh, there we go. Right. How ironic. Shoot. Okay. Have you given them a bunch of money and you've made zero progress? I have. No, I haven't made zero progress yet. I've given them half of the money that I needed. They were quoted me$15 ,000, and they were going to get me into a hardship program, and it was called the Fresh Start Program. How much money do you make a year, Brandy? I make about$65 ,000, and I just recently got married in December. Together, we have not combined our checking accounts because of this IRS debt. Okay. How much does he make a year? About$75 ,000. Okay. You don't want them to see his income is what you're thinking.

1:07:32Exactly. I don't want them to get a hold of his checking account. My name is not on his checking account for that reason. We share our money. We pay the bills together. Sure. You know, but my name is not on his account because I don't want the IRS to go after his account. Can you get your money back from these folks? That I don't know. How can we help you, Brandy? What do you need from us? Okay, so I contacted one of your people. I used to call them ELPs. Yes, one of our tax-trusted pros, yep. Right, okay. So I contacted one in Alabama. He was the nearest one. And he's just a CPA. And he says, I've heard of this place.

1:08:14They have good reviews on Google. They have a lot of good reviews. My second question, my second part of my question was, He recommended another tax attorney that is local to me. I live in Mississippi, just outside of New Orleans, about 20 minutes outside New Orleans. So he recommended a tax professional, a tax attorney. When I contacted them, they quoted me$5 ,600 to take care of the situation, to handle it from start to finish. Wow. Okay. So I went back to Better Tax Relief, and they knocked my fee down and said for the balance of about$5 ,000, they would finish the case and that they do have tax attorneys on staff.

1:09:05Yeah, but you're still just talking about fees. Have they talked about what settlement they've negotiated on this$96 ,000? They have not yet. Okay. I have all of my trust. I don't know this company, never even heard of them. I have all of my trust. A tax attorney. I would look at incentives. When you hire an attorney, that attorney works for you. Okay. You are working for this other group right now. You're basically paying the middle man. Right. Yeah. And see, my husband's been saying, I've had a bad feeling about this since the beginning because I was pressured. and I was like, oh my God, they're going to come after me and you made$6 ,000.

1:09:46It's a lot of money. Right, right. You were scared. You made a decision out of fear, right? Urgency and yep. I don't know the process but just personally sitting here just as a dumb guy off the street, I'm stunned that after more than what, seven months of working with a company, you don't have a relief number yet. You don't have a negotiated settlement yet. I don't. I don't have anything. That blows my mind. Yes. And how much, you said you've given them half of the$15 ,000? Half of the$15 ,000, yes. And then they said they can do it for$5 ,000, meaning the additional$5 ,000, or are they going to pay you$2 ,000 back so that you have?

1:10:23No, I would still have to pay another$5 ,000 to whichever one I choose to go with. If I choose to stay with Better Tax. Okay, because your original$7 ,000 that you've paid them is just done. I don't know. I can see if I can recoup any of that. I don't know about that. Okay. But I'm looking at$5 ,000 more to get an answer. But I think that, and hearing you two just now just sold me, I'm going to go with the attorney's office. I would call this company, and I want a full accounting of what you have done for me for my$7 ,500 I've given you over the last seven months. I want every phone call logged.

1:11:04I want every message. I want every negotiated settlement you've offered. I want to know what you've done for the last seven months. If you can't provide that, I want my money back. Because I think what they're doing is just trashing your credit. My credit's trashed. I'm not even worried about that. Yeah. And then you don't have what I would see as you don't have to do any moral slipperiness with, well, let's don't do his money. Let's get somebody who can get in with the IRS, get a negotiated settlement, get a dollar amount. And you'll probably put on a payment plan. You can put on a payment plan.

1:11:38We're going to pay it off ASAP. I'm really hoping for innocent spouse, but this company hasn't said that. And the attorney's office is like, we could go for innocent spouse. I don't see why you wouldn't get it. Right. See, this, okay. And Brandy, I mean, honestly, it's like working with an attorney, if you think about it, they've gone to school for this. This is what they do day in and day out. They work for you. This relief company is like a who knows who opened it up. They make so much money. It reminds me not of a payday loan by any means, but it's all in that same bucket. Like, these debt relief companies, they're a cash grab.

1:12:11They grab people in desperate moments. I mean, honestly, I hate to say, I mean, exactly you. I'm like, yes, we are freaking out. You're like, my wages are going to be garnished. The IRS is after me. Help me. And then help debt relief companies right there with their sign. And you're like, that's what I need. There is no recourse for you if they call you back next month and say, well, we tried. Nothing doing. They've kept your money. And you know what? Yeah. And that's just, that's it. That's right. So I think it's just stupid tax that you just knock it up to, if they don't pay you back, the$7 ,000.

1:12:40A great attorney is worth every single penny you pay. Because they, it's like they take up a sword and a shield on your behalf and they say, game on. And that's what you hire them for. Yeah, and even the term they just threw out to you, right? The innocent spouse. You're like, there you go. I can't believe it. I'm trying not to get angry on the phone. I applied for innocent spouse. I applied for innocent spouse. But then the IRS shut down. The government shut down and never heard anything. Right, but then having an attorney on your side, right, that goes forward and tries again and all of it is worth every penny.

1:13:13Just thank y 'all. Just thank y 'all so much. We are doing so good, and y 'all just are proud of you. So proud of you, Brandi. I know this is the big debt you're looking at. How much have you guys paid off? We had$140 ,000, and we're down to$72 ,000 since January of last year. Oh, my gosh. So we paid off about$70 ,000 in a year. Good for you guys. We plan to be debt-free except for the House by the end of this year, with the exception of the IRS. We'll have that settled, hopefully. Okay, but settlement doesn't mean it goes away. Settlement means they're going to come up with a number, right? Right, right.

1:13:49Well, I thought that the$15 ,000 was my settlement, and that was going to be paid off this year, too. I'm learning now that that was just their fee. Wow. Yeah, they swindled you. Yep. so that's a$7 ,000 steep attack that is like having sat with having sat with widows like that makes me so enraged on your behalf that someone would take somebody in that moment of pain they just lost their ride or die and then to find out there was a hundred grand they didn't know about and then to come in and be like oh we got you give me$15 ,000 I'll call you back in seven months, eight months that's so enraging to me Golly.

1:15:29We'll see you next time. And that's where Delete Me comes in. Delete Me's privacy experts find your personal info on these shady data broker sites. They get it deleted and they keep it gone. It's like having a digital cleanup crew that scrubs your online life. So you get way fewer of those spam calls, creepy texts, and scam emails that make you wonder how they even found you. Guys, the less noise in your digital life, the more time you have for what actually matters. Because when you protect your privacy, you protect your peace and your freedom. So go to joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey to get 20 % off their annual plans and take back control.

1:16:03That's joindeliteme.com slash Ramsey.

1:16:20Today's question of the day is brought to you by Why Refi? Defaulted private student loans don't fix themselves, but they can be fixed. Y-Refi helps you by refinancing defaulted private student loans into a low fixed rate payment that fits your budget so that you can clean up this mess and move forward with a plan. Visit Y-Refi.com slash Ramsey. That's Y-R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey may not be available in all states. All right. Today's question comes from Caitlin in New York. Caitlin writes, my fiance and I recently moved into a house together. I am not on the mortgage, but I live here and he pays the bills.

1:16:59His dad helped him buy the house and my fiance pays his dad instead of a mortgage lender. On top of that, my fiance uses a credit card that's also paid for by his dad. Oh, geez. His dad is a big fan of yours and a very smart businessman. Sounds like a raving fan. loves us but this is one thing he does opposite of what you advise when i bring up getting rid of the credit card or buying a house the right way he gets defensive and upset i don't know who if that's your father-in-law soon to be or your your fiance what should be my first step to fix this problem um i rachel i think this is as simple as you telling your fiance that if we're going to get married, it's going to be our marriage, not I'm not marrying your dad too.

1:17:53Right. Like we have to put some boundaries in place right now. You're getting a very clear picture of what your future may look like if you go through with this, which is marrying a little boy in a grownup man's body who dad still pays his bills. His dad still tells him what to do. his dad still, the shadow of his father leans over your house. And if this is my sister, if this is my daughter, if this is my friend, I would say I would draw some real firm boundaries. Yes, yeah, because if he can't handle it during engagement, he's definitely not going to handle it well getting married. Yeah, wait until you have a kid.

1:18:29Yes. And wait until you get a job in another state and daddy says you can't move. And even if it was a debit card and his dad's paying, you know, funding his checking account, also, so that's the issue. the debt and then also the fact that debt is being inner you know woven through this entire picture and if you're not okay with that you guys have two separate values when it comes to money which is a really big deal I always I feel like a shallow person when I'm always like oh my gosh money can ruin the relationship because it feels like no that shouldn't love should conquer all but the truth is when like rubber meets the road and you guys day in and day out are dealing with your life this is one of the biggest the biggest issues in marriage that can cause so much conflict if you're not on the same page.

1:19:12So can it be done? It can, but it's just an exhausting uphill battle. And sometimes it's like you just fight and fight and fight all day long about it. And it doesn't create peace in the household. In this situation, what churns my stomach is, if you go to a mortgage lender to get a loan for a home, there is regulatory bodies that monitor that. There's agreements, there's contracts. Yes. those things guide your relationship yes in this situation your future father-in-law owns y 'all he tells y 'all what you're gonna do when you're gonna do because he is your bank he is your lender and i'm not having that because there's no regulations to that relationship other than what he feels that day yeah mixing family money and also can i i'll just say this on behalf of the dad in this situation i have a 15 year old you know what i'm gonna tell the story uh josephine and I, my daughter, she's 10.

1:20:09We went on a date the other day. And after we got done eating, she said, dad, there's this cool dress shop. She didn't know this. It's the dress shop. It's anthropology. Back in the old school, back OG anthropology, I used to get my wife gift cards when we had nothing. I would save up and save up and save up. And that would be like a Christmas present for her. Cause I think their clothes are rad. Right. Or they were back in the day. I don't, I don't pay attention. And we went in there and there was a dress that was obnoxiously expensive. and she she lit up and she goes can i try this on and i was like you can try that on and i was a hundred percent gonna buy it i mean i was like i'm buying that for sure i'm totally buying that like there's no reason financially she can't wear it she has a uniform at her school i'm buying my daughter that dress yeah and of course it was like 17 sizes too big i was gonna say a little joke but like yeah yeah i get the sentiment as a parent of wanting to make sure I'm clearing the deck.

1:21:05I'm clearing the path for my kids as much as possible. I don't want them to struggle. I don't want them to have the same heartache I had. I never, my dad wouldn't have had the money because he was a policeman. Like he wouldn't have the money to buy me something, even if he wanted to. And I get the impulse to want to do that. We as parents have to understand that that impulse when taken too far hurts our kids. It's walking into the weight room, taking all the weight off the bar and then wondering why they're not getting stronger. Yes. Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Let me do the lifts for you.

1:21:35Because I read all this and sometimes I blame the parent as much in the situation as the son. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to this dad, you know, I mean, how hard is it or how often do you see married couples and it is like an entanglement of the son or daughter continues to listen to the parents over the spouse? Is that pretty common? Super, super common. And not usually to this degree, whether you're a lender and they're financing your life, but even on things as strange as someone's been married 20 years and we have to go to Thanksgiving and do it this way because my mom said that. And so in a weird way, your mother-in-law is still running your life.

1:22:13So that happens all over the place. We probably have mutual friends that still have been married. They have three kids and they still hide the wine when mom comes over. And so there comes a point when you have to say, I'm an adult. If I'm old enough to ask the question, will you marry me? Then I have to, it is dad holds the blame here. But now that this guy said, I want you to marry me. He has to stand up, take responsibility and look at his father and say, thank you for bringing me here. I have to develop the skills and muscle and grit and resilience and responsibility to take it from here. and if his dad throws a temper tantrum then he's going to have a hard grown up decision to make but that's the call of a new husband yeah and weirdly if I'm her and he does that and even if the dad throws the temper tantrum temper tantrum I can't say that word there's something about if the fiance continues to push through though and continues to choose her that shows even bigger of who he is right so like it is a little bit of this like yes yes Yes.

1:23:20In it all. But when you ask somebody, will you marry me? They go to number one on your list. Yep. Above your parents, above everything. That person anchoring into that person becomes priority. Yeah. Okay. We got about two minutes, John. What'd you say from a relational standpoint, we're talking about like parents, child relationship, sort of, I mean, adult child, but child. But when it comes to marriage, when we're talking about them as a couple, what do you see on your show and other places, probably like one or two of the biggest issues that continue to like drive a wedge financially in a marriage?

1:23:56I mean, the biggest one, number one is people have my money and your money. So you're 40 ,000. This is my 60 ,000, right? Like it's a billion dollars, right? But they, they, they try to, they're driving two cars down the highway right next to each other, trying to pretend that they're in the same car and they're, they're not. Right. So that's the first one. The second one, without a doubt, is financial infidelity, secrets. I bought this and didn't tell them I'm going to buy this. Don't you tell your dad. Everything from a cup of coffee all the way to the new car, the new guitar. Or like we took a call earlier about the I'm trying to day trade with borrowed money and I got myself.

1:24:35So it's secrets. It's lies. It's deception. Yep. Of continuing to hide. And what's so interesting, too, about that dynamic, because I've heard people say that. It's like, oh, just, yeah, don't, yeah, put the shopping bags away before dad gets home so that he doesn't see it. Because that means dad isn't looking at the bank statement or the credit card statement. That's the other side of it, right? Like, that's wild to me. Whenever people say that, I'm always like, but that's so, unless they have a hidden account, right, which is one thing. But the whole shopping, because, I mean, this is, it's like a joke, I feel like among women, it's like, okay, if you go to Target, hide the Target bags kind of thing.

1:25:05Which whenever I hear that, I'm always like, yes, but doesn't that show up? And isn't someone looking at the checking account, right? And if just one person is, I give that a red flag of like, you both need to be involved in seeing what's going on. That's one reason I do love every dollar with all the transactions that come in. Because once and I. Because it pops up on each other's phone. And sometimes it comes up a weird name. I did this yesterday. I was trying. And I screenshot and I text. I'm like, what is this? They go, that's insurance. And I was like, oh, shoot. OK, there we go. I wasn't sure what that was.

1:25:31But it just keeps you in this rhythm and on the same page. So married couples out there, there are so many things with money that can drive a wedge. and it can be one of the reasons of divorce in America today, one of the top reasons, but it doesn't have to take your marriage, right? There are things you can do. You can work together, be on the same team, do a budget together, have a plan together, have goals together and be in one car, like what John was saying, versus driving in two cars down the streets. Be a team.

1:26:23welcome back to the ramsey show in the fairwinds credit union studio i am rachel cruz hosting it today with dr john deloney you can give us a call at 888-825-5225 we are taking your questions about life and money. All right, let's go to Salt Lake City and we have Austin on the line. Hi, Austin. Hey, Rachel. Hey, John. How's it going? Hi, we're doing great. How can we help today? Hey, so I got married just this last summer and just enjoying married life and we've combined our lives, combined our finances. But I'm kind of having a hard time. I feel like my wife isn't super involved with the finances.

1:27:05I feel like it's kind of all on me, which is fine. I feel like we're in a good, healthy, responsible spot. I'm just wondering if I should strive harder to get her more involved. How could I do that? And then I also kind of have a fear that if something were to ever happen to me, she would be in a good spot, but not really know what to do with as far as finances go. So I'll answer this question backwards. words. I have sat with multiple wives who have said the words, I don't know what to do. I don't know where the money is. I don't know where the accounts are. I don't know who holds any of our anything.

1:27:41And so your fear on that, I've experienced that secondhand sitting with somebody. So your fear is a hundred percent right. But I would say that's not the chief reason why I would want your wife involved.

1:27:56But I want to ask you a question first. Is that cool? Sure. Is she not involved because all you do is throw spreadsheets around and talk about this and like you're kind of annoying to be around? Or, and I'm saying that laughingly, by the way, or does she just like... Not care. Not care. Laughingly, probably the first one, but also the second one. Okay. I feel like I am that way, but also I feel like she just doesn't care. Well, and sometimes people don't care because they really just, I just don't care. Like my mom didn't do it. My grandma didn't do it. So I guess I'm not going to do it. And then sometimes people just take their stuff and they go home because they realize my voice doesn't count here at this table.

1:28:36I don't get a vote. I don't know how you're using all these Excel formulas and Claude and Anthropic. So I'm just going to, whatever. Right. And so I think for you as a new husband, establishing in your relationship, like telling her, I'm sorry I set this up this way your voice matters here I want you at the table here and we're going to co-make decisions and one of you is going to like in my in my marriage my wife pushes the buttons I don't send the bills to the electric company or whatever but we talk about it right so one of y 'all is going to do the the nuts and bolts of it but y 'all being together is critical man yeah so the the opposites attract thing is real Austin she probably will never be someone that's like so excited to see her Excel sheets.

1:29:19Like that's just not going to probably be her. And I can say that because that's me. I am not. That's not me. Winston is that he loves all the details and does all this like projecting out on things. And I'm like, that's great. But I'm not like super excited about it. But we sit down every month. And now I mean, it's been 17 years. So now it's like, you know, quick 17, 16. I'm jumping ahead. But yeah, 16 years. but I mean it's quick conversations but we do a budget we have every dollar transactions come in I usually track them like we are still on the same page but to John's point you know I he's the one that presses the buttons in our life of like yeah here I'm gonna pay these bills and everything but I'm still involved and so I think that's the balance is you have to understand opposites attract and what she brings to the table Austin's gonna be really good for you like you may need to loosen up a little bit too right so she's a gift to you in that but then what she needs to understand is that she's an adult.

1:30:13She's a grown woman. She's married, which means you have to do adult things. Even though you don't like it, even though it's not your strength and it's not exciting to you, you have to do adult things. And adult things is learning how to manage a household financially. And again, she may not be pumped about it, but that is part of growing up. And so for you guys to sit down together and look at the numbers and do a budget together, have her change two or three things on the budget, like whether it's amounts or she needs to add a category, like you do need her involved. And then you guys can kind of start working out of that.

1:30:51So that's what I would say. You probably need to like chill a little bit with her and not be so detailed. But then also on her end, she has to pull her weight to say, yeah, I may not want to do this, but I need to because I'm an adult and we have to do things we don't always like. does that make sense okay yeah that's helpful yeah how old are you guys uh oh she probably wouldn't like me saying this i'm 31 and she's in her early 30s she wouldn't like you say i thought you were saying she's like 18 and you're i thought you were gonna say she's 51 she wouldn't like you saying your age a little bit older than me yeah okay yeah i do there's something magic, especially in a new relationship with somebody saying, you know what?

1:31:36I have screwed this up out of the gate and I'm sorry. I really want your voice at the table here. And I can be really annoying with my spreadsheets. I'm going to commit to not doing that or, and vice versa. Hey, I've been really annoying with just being like, whatever. Um, I'm never going to be in a spreadsheets, but I want to be a part of the money. Like wherever you fall on that of saying, I have set this dynamic up in a bad way and I want to be a part of changing it. So good move on your part, brother. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks. All right. Let's go to Debbie in Dayton, Ohio. Hi, Debbie. Welcome to the show.

1:32:07Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. Absolutely. How can we help? When my husband retired from his first job, he received a pension and we took the pension and purchased a 10-year deferred annuity. We realized how bad this decision was later. And we're wondering now if we should take the 10 % surrender charge hit and just remove our principal and invest it with our other retirement money, hopefully making that back. Yes. I mean, that's usually it. How much is in there? Right now there's$366 ,000. Oh my gosh. Yes. Because it would clear your debt, right? We don't have any. Oh, even better.

1:32:51Oh my gosh. Okay. We just have a little bit on our mortgage. Yeah. When did he get this? We purchased it in 2023. Okay, so it's fairly new. Yeah. And we realized you can with no surrender charge take 10 % a year, but that's just a slow. Well, I was going to say that, yeah. And it probably hasn't earned it a lot because you may have to pay on the gains of it too, but I don't think there's not going to be a lot because it's so new. The interest it supposedly earns versus the fees they're charging us. The fees are more than the interest. Yes, I know. That's the thing about annuities that are so tough is the fees are so high.

1:33:32And the person that's selling them gets a pretty good deal. Yeah, Debbie, I would. You're going to have to freaking plug your nose when you do it, though. It's going to hurt. But in the long run, putting that in an investment somewhere, even an index fund or something, oh, my gosh. That's going to grow. How old are you guys? I'm 60, 59. Okay. Okay. So you guys are at that point. Well, we have other retirement investment. We are about$1.2 million without this money. Okay. Is it a fixed or variable? And we'll carry a health up next year. This is flexible premium. Okay. I don't know if that answers your question.

1:34:15Okay. Do you have a SmartVestor Pro? no but we do have a financial advisor that we've been working with not the one that sold you this is it no different person okay yeah i would talk to them and run the numbers because you guys are at retirement age and seeing you know what the because what you would pay in penalties versus if you just slowly took this out um over time because you're at that age i i would run the numbers, but man, more than likely just for your kid's sake, from a, from a legacy perspective, if you were to leave your kid something, I think I'd rather it be in an account that's, that's earning more interest than what you guys are doing.

1:35:09it's that time again folks tax season is here i know some of you would rather bury your head in the sand until april 15th than face your taxes but here's a better idea if your tax situation is complicated, get in touch with a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro today. That way they can take the stress off your shoulders once those tax forms come in and teach you how to keep your tax bill as low as possible. But don't wait. Ramsey Trusted Pros can book up fast. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash tax pro to find one who serves your area with excellence. That's RamseySolutions.com slash tax pro.

1:36:07If you have kicked debt to the curve and curb, curve, curb. I've always said curb. What do you think it is? Kick to the curb, kick to the curve. It's not the curve. Okay, that's what my sheet says. So as I was reading it, I was like, I don't know if that's right. Kick to the curve? That's what it says. It's like Ron Burgundy and reading my sheet. Oh, my gosh. Okay, listen. If you are debt-free and you have a fully funded emergency fund, do you know where you need to be? Not this March, but March of 2027. Not in the curve because you've kicked it. You kicked that curve. On the live like no one else.

1:36:45Cruz, that's right, people. We are back. We did this last year and it was so fun. It was a boat full of people that are doing the Ramsey plan and who are debt free and doing all the things we are. And we loved it. It was such a great time. So it's Dave Ramsey, all the Ramsey personalities. We're all going to be there on March 14th through the 21st, 2027. We're going to the Bahamas, Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Cozumel and cabins are limited. So save up to$300 off when you book by February 7th. It's coming up, you guys. So, again, cabins are limited, so make sure to purchase one if you go to RamseySolutions.com slash events.

1:37:25And I think it's – I saw the numbers two days ago. I think it's right at 50 % sold. So, half the boat. All those people kicking their debt to the curve. Debt to the curve. I was like, I don't know if that's right. All right. Let's go to Salt Lake City, and we have Grace, who is on the line. Hi, Grace. Hi, guys. How are you guys today? Hi, we're doing great. How can we help? So I'm going to try to make this like not long. It's really hard with the situation. But basically, me and my partner, we're both still technically married. He has two kids. Mom is gone. We're raising the two kids with us too.

1:38:02We decided to combine our finances last summer. And we're in$91 ,000 of debt accumulated. okay and our monthly income is like 5 700 after taxes and we just don't know what to do and we have other expenses too last week we found out i was pregnant and then um we also grace i'm so sorry did you say you're married to him we are both married to different people okay so we live together and we've combined our finances are you guys both in the middle of divorces yeah so mine's finished in february so mine's done almost okay we haven't even started because of the custody and all that you know i would not i would if you were my sister if you were my daughter if you were my close friend i would tell you do not combine your finances to that mess until it is cleared okay please please please don't because it can get so tangled when like our rent, all these things are already accumulated.

1:39:13Just Venmo each other if you need to. But don't put your names on each other's stuff. Don't be combining accounts. Don't be doing any of that. Oh, okay. I see. Yeah, I don't think we've really done that. We have separate accounts and everything like that, but we, like, I'll pay his bills. He'll pay my bills. No, no, no, no, no, no. Like, y 'all are college roommates right now. Because here's the deal, Grace. He hasn't even gone through a divorce when they go through and do all the mediation and they do, you know, they they they take all the assets and all of it. If you're paying on his on his debt, like you're you're, you know, in that situation, I don't know.

1:39:50It gets all it gets all muddled so quickly. Yeah, I guess the problem is, is that we both don't have any assets besides our cars with car payments. We don't own houses. There's no money in the banks for either of us. it's like we are living week to week. Like we live off his paycheck one week. We live off my paycheck one week. That's how we're living our life. Okay. He's on the phone. So I just want to talk to you. Is that cool? He's not on the phone. I'm saying like I, right now I want you to focus on what you can control. Okay. Okay. How much money do you make? I make, so what makes it complicated too, is I'm on commission based salary.

1:40:33So I make my baseline is about$2 ,500 a month. And then more like$2 ,400 because I get paid like$1 ,200 biweekly. And then sometimes I take in$700 and a bonus in a month, and then sometimes it's$3 ,000. Sometimes it's$4 ,000. Sometimes it's$2 ,500. Or if I don't make gold, like last month, I didn't get a bonus at all. Okay, so that feels like you are very economically insecure. Right. What was your W-2 last year? Or what did you report on your taxes last year? $48 ,000. Okay. Okay. So in a situation like this, Grace, what I would do is we call it the hills and valleys fund, if you will. So I would be so diligent.

1:41:25And again, this gets really complicated because you guys are sharing bills and all of it. Now you're sharing a human, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So as much as you can to go through and draw a line and say, okay, here's what I would owe, right? Whatever the utility is, I owe half. Like if you can function like roommates financially, I think that's going to be really important because I want you to get your money in order. So what John was getting at is, hey, Grace, how much do you make? How much do you make? and you have to learn to live on your salary and your commission, right? And so how do we create a budget for you, Grace?

1:42:02Not for him, for you. And so what that means is, yeah, when you have a great month, that means you're probably gonna put, you know, a thousand bucks or so into this other account so that when you have a month that's just$2 ,500 and you don't earn a commission, you can pull some money out to pay your part of the bills. So it needs to have a really, really black and white situation financially with him. Okay. That's, that's the cleanest way to do it. And then when, when he gets through all of his divorce stuff and you guys, I mean, I'm assuming you guys get married eventually. Yeah, that's the goal.

1:42:37Like, I guess where it's complicated is that like this $5 ,000 retainer is what's holding us up because like the way that we, cause I've been listening to you guys on the show and basically we were, you know, thinking we should combine everything and do everything like that. Not until you're married. We want to be married. We want, if we could be married, we would have already gone to the courthouse. Yes, I hear you. But it's not an emotional, it's a legal issue, right? So like, it's not, oh gosh, we want to be married, so we should combine finances. No, no, no, you're not legally married. You have no protection.

1:43:10So no, we're not combining finances. And is his the$5 ,000 retainer that he needs to figure out? Right. So I... For the kids. I mean, these kids are probably mom. I'm like, it's a whole. I know, but Grace, listen to me, and I know you don't want to hear this. We're just telling you because we do this. We take these calls all day, every day. The chances of you working extra shifts, paying$4 ,000 of this$5 ,000 retainer, you paying the bills while he goes through his divorce, and then suddenly they reconcile, or suddenly he doesn't love you anymore, or suddenly whatever. And the reason I know that you have a psychology for that is because it's happened to you in your marriage.

1:43:54What you'll find yourself with is a brand new baby and you'll have nothing. Yeah. And so I care about the woman on the phone that I'm talking to. I care about him too, but I'm not talking to him. He needs to come up with his money for his divorce. And by the way, you don't have enough money to even be helping with that. I feel like there's two people who are F math students trying to work together to get an A on an exam yes and so I want you to work on your math skills and it may be I gotta get a different job it may be I've gotta figure out some new things but I want you to start getting concrete under your feet because your life right now is a seesaw and that's exhausting right and he can play on the seesaw all day long but i want you to stand on the sidewalk and this is going to be hard because this is not only a mathematical financial issue it's a relational issue big time when you like like if you do this i will be surprised like it would be easier to get off the phone and just keep doing what you've been doing and then you look up in two years and sadly a reality hits that's not what not the picture you painted or you do what we say what we recommend i mean honestly and and you do this and then he goes through all of his stuff and my prayer is that sure at the end of all of it you guys are still in love you have a baby and then you've had a you have a strong financial foundation under you he does as well you guys get married you combine it all and then you you go from there and you're actually building on something strong not something that is so shaky like it is now but the the way to do it the smart way to build is separately.

1:45:34Financially, you need to be separate. You are roommates financially. You have to think about it that way.

1:45:56Welcome to 2026. Last year is officially in the rear view and you're fired up to finally make some changes with your money. New year, new goals. We love it. But let's be honest, old you said the exact same thing last January and the January before that. And before you know it, those money goals fizzle out faster than the fleeting flavor of LaCroix. So here's the truth. New year motivation only gets you so far. You need an actual plan. And the good news is you don't have to figure it out on your own. Every dollar builds a personalized plan based on your goals and your real life. and it actually coaches you to stick with it.

1:46:29Plus, the EveryDollar app will help you find extra money hiding in your budget. And trust me, there's always something hiding. The average person finds$3 ,015 in the first 15 minutes. That's basically like giving yourself a raise and a much happier new year. So don't let future you down. Make them proud. Go download the EveryDollar budget app and start for free right now.

1:47:06Well, here in Nashville, Tennessee, we do the show live every day from one to four here on the glass. We have always a wonderful audience that comes out. And over to the side, we have the debt-free stage. And whenever we see someone on it, we know what it is. And so we have Matthew and Bree from Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome, you guys. Thank you. Thank you. We're very excited to be here. Oh my gosh. Okay, so you're obviously on the stage. Yep. You guys are debt-free. That's correct. How much debt did you pay off? $110 ,000. Oh my gosh, what did that consist of? Two car notes, a little bit of student loans, and some personal loans.

1:47:45Oh my gosh, all personal debt, all consumer debt. Yeah, consumer debt. We didn't have any credit card debt, thankfully. Yes. But we just decided to get after it and just paid it off. I love it. How long did it take you? About 10 months. Oh my gosh. What were you guys making during that time? Roughly about 115 a year, give or take. I work in healthcare and so it can kind of fluctuate. I'm just on the overtime. I'm a CT tech. And so we decided last year to go on an adventure. and instead of travel nursing, think of travel CT. And so we rented out our house originally in Las Vegas. That's where I'm from.

1:48:30And I'm from North Carolina. Okay. So moved to Las Vegas. Which is where we met. Yep. And we got married and then we wanted to downsize everything and then we did tiny house living. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so it was pretty gnarly. Oh, my gosh. How long have y 'all been married? Three and a half years. Yeah, okay, okay. So, um, but literally last year, it was about a year ago today, we just looked at each other and we're like, we, we make too much money to be this darn broke as Dave says. And, um, we knew that we didn't necessarily want to go into any more debt, um, planning this move or moving or anything.

1:49:05Yeah. And so, um, we kind of drew out a plan and, um, both of us had always talked about moving to Nashville. She went to college in East Tennessee. Okay. And so, and I worked for a healthcare corporation that's pretty big out here. And then I got the job for Vanderbilt. But just, we feel really, really blessed and really. Oh my gosh. Yeah, a lot of prayer was over this. And so we're excited to be here in Tennessee after a lot of years of praying and figuring out like where God was calling us to go. So, yeah. Amazing. And so we did sell our house. So that was a big, a big thing that just kind of just.

1:49:40Helped it. Okay, that's what I was going to ask, because you guys basically, you basically paid off the amount of debt you make in a year. So I was like, so something must have happened. So we paid off roughly about 20 grand during the time of the whole travel thing, because we've been out here since mid-July. And so it was when we made the move out. But we knew that we didn't want to go into any more debt with that move, because it was halfway across the country. And so it was really kind of an experience just eating, you know, homemade pizza and just kind of, you know. That was beautiful. We just went on so many walks and like the mountains and the nature and just like the stillness.

1:50:16And that's really, yeah, what we just soaked in. So amazing, you guys. So whose idea was it? So 10 months ago, who was the one that like brought the conversation to the table that you were like? So I had actually taken Dave's class like almost like 15, 16 years ago. Oh, yeah. And so I think it was like a 13-week course back then. Oh, yes. That was the oldest in year. That's right. When I was like 19. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to start investing. I have to start doing all this type of stuff. And so I was able to go to college debt-free, just working multiple jobs. And then we got married kind of.

1:50:50Got married kind of, sorry. We did. We got legally married first and then we had our... Oh, okay. That makes sense. Okay. And so we kind of lived the, I hate to say this, but like the Dave-ish, we kind of just fell into that. Yeah. Monotony. Totally. and then like I said last year we really looked at each other like this is ridiculous and I didn't really know much about um Dave Ramsey or anything and so he introduced me to it and what the baby steps were and just like getting after it and I love traveling and so whenever I was looking at different jobs and traveling jobs and saw that his job could travel um I was like oh the best of both worlds and so yeah that's kind of how we went with that route yeah and so and then we knew we wanted to get out here eventually but we knew that we didn't want to go into any more debt for that yes if that you know totally so you stopped that so you're like no more debt so we got to save we got to be thinking about this move right exactly in a wise way while still thinking about all this other debt you have that you're like we want to start paying it off exactly and so when we just you know downsized everything we could fit into our subaru and then we had a trailer um that we also had some stuff on it and we sold that in colorado and then that's what we brought Yeah, with us.

1:52:03Yeah. And then when we got here about seven months ago to Tennessee, then we got some stuff. And we're in our apartment right now. Okay. And so, yeah, we're excited for you guys. Yeah. And so we... What an adventure. It's been crazy. It's been so much change, but we're just excited now to, like, settle down, hopefully have kids, and really, yeah, just see what's next. How does it feel being debt-free? It feels really good. Like a big relief. Like, it's just like a brick has been taken off our chest. because we knew that it was coming, but it's just such relief, and we're never going back. Yeah, no, definitely not.

1:52:37So I want to throw this example out. You guys are in Nashville right now? Yes. Yeah, we're around the Gulch area. And you all went through this wild storm last week. Yes. And my wife and I were talking. Imagine being in that moment, and we have to get out of here. We need to go get a hotel or something, and we can't. and y 'all are debt free y 'all go through this first big storm and what y 'all got to do is what y 'all wanted to do because you've worked for this all this time sold everything but we put ourselves in a position to not if but when life happens we get to decide what happens next yeah it's just I've heard both of you say it's not an emergency it's just an inconvenience and it's kind of just like it's like weather or you gotta travel for a family thing, like whatever it is.

1:53:30You're like, okay, we can do this. Like we're good. Definitely experienced that since we moved here because things happen, car crashes, all these random things. And, or like a hospital bill from like way back when, two years ago shows up and you're like, what? And then you just paid off and you're like, whoa. Like that was a really cool feeling. And we just know that it was all through God and him helping us the whole time. And so it was kind of, we took care of, you know, we were obviously chopping away at that tree on baby step two, but then we, with the sale of the house, we just took care of Baby Step 3 as well.

1:54:00Good. How much did y 'all get for the house when you sold? We got over six figures. Oh, good. Okay. It was a big chunk of change. That is. That's great. So we were able to put a little bit away, and now it's just kind of sitting in an account, and we want to buy a home out here, hopefully. But we're in no rush, and we get to kind of just take a breather. We do, yes. And just kind of just relax. You're patient. Nothing is urgent. Nothing is urgent. And there's some great restaurants in the Gulf, so y 'all can just go when you want. Exactly. It is nice. It's been a little bit. So what would you say, besides selling a really nice house, what would you say the key of getting out of debt is?

1:54:34What was one of the things that was so helpful? Obviously, we've been together for, you know, three, three and a half years, and communication. Yeah. It's teamwork. I think definitely, like, it has to be both of everybody's idea, like, coming together and, like, what that looks like. And so kind of, like, finding that compromise of what that would be. And so for us, it was traveling. But for other people, it could look different. and so finding something that um just inspires you to get to that point so yeah and i'm the free spirit and she's the definitely budget-minded now i am but i used to be the free spirit so we've we've uh yes i'm kind of like you yeah i'm such a free spirit but i'm the one that tracks all the transactions and every dollar and that's what my mom always did just in the household and just like now just being married a little bit it's not been that long but just seeing like um parent roles and like what they did and like how to be a wife and what I'm supposed to be, you know, in charge of.

1:55:26And so I'm just trying to gather all that. It's great. Well, you guys are awesome. And how you are, you know, personally wise, you lean into that, which is amazing. And I see that in you guys. You create such a great team, which is so fun. And just the diligence and the adventure, which I love that it's a part of your story. I've never heard somebody say that, but every couple has to pick their sacrifice. And for y 'all, it's selling the house. For y 'all, it was, we're going to travel or we're not going to travel. For me and my wife, it might be something different. But every couple has to get together and choose their sacrifices.

1:55:56I love that. That's awesome. All right. You guys ready? Yeah. I think we're all ready. We've got a whole hands. Okay. So we have Matthew and Bree from Colorado, now live in Nashville, Tennessee. They've paid off$110 ,000 of debt. That's cars, student loans, and personal loans in 10 months, making$115 ,000 of income with the sale of a house. All right, you guys, count it down. Let's hear it. 3, 2, 1, we're debt free!

1:56:29Amazing. Oh my gosh, the joy. That's how it's done, people. That is how it's done. Dude, they're smiling and dancing.

1:56:54Hey, guys. Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:57:46Our scripture of the day comes from Jeremiah 29 11. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jim Collins said, It is better to understand who you are than where you are going, for where you are going will almost surely change. I love that quote. That's good. Do you think we change, though, who you are? Yes. So both. Both ands, right, Jim? Understand who you are more than where you're going, because where you're going is going to change, but also who you are may change, too. You need to kick that to the curve.

1:58:26I don't know. What? That attitude. What? No, no, you said we could change too. I don't know. I like it all. I kind of like these quotes are always great. We've done them for the entire beginning of the show. There's always a scripture and always a quote. But sometimes these quotes, I like to kind of pick them apart, see what I would say differently. All right. Not that I would correct Jim Collins. Sorry, Jim. No. Much wiser than me. I'm going to stick with your quote, Jim. All right. Let's go to April in St. Louis. Hi, April. Hi, how are you? Hi, we're doing great. How can we help today? So I'm in a great situation.

1:59:06I've paid off all my debt and I'm investing. However, I want to know how you define the line of being generous without becoming the family bailout. Oh, good question. What's the situation? Why would you be the family bailout? Like, what's the family? What's the family need bailing out of? A lot of things, actually. So I have a sister who's on the brink of bankruptcy, and she's got two kids. I've been helping her with car situations. So I bought her a car, actually, ironically, in April, and it just took a itch. The engine just went on that. So I'm giving her my car and buying myself a new car.

1:59:48And then my parents did not plan for their retirement. They are living on Social Security and drowning because they've also taken on more debt that they can actually pay. So my dad does DoorDash, but they are drowning and they can't really pay their bills. So they come to me quite often to help out. Gosh, okay. So your situation, you obviously have done well. What's your net worth? Right now, well, I guess I'm married now. So our net worth is just about$3 million. Okay. And you guys are debt-free, everything. Yeah, you guys are doing great. Completely debt-free. Go ahead. I went through my own journey of realizing how much I was paying to interest.

2:00:41I had credit cards and auto loans and student debt. And I took on second jobs to get myself to a position between 25 and 32 of being debt-free. and then starting to invest. And then my husband, he had a really great example. So he bought a home when he was 25 and was able to pay that off quickly. Oh, wow. Yeah, you guys were just wise. We're in a really fortunate situation. Well, fortunate, but you worked for it. You made smart decisions too, so give yourself that credit. Yeah. Thank you. So I like to think of generosity as a – it's like an approach, right? It's like a spirit of. And so everybody has to decide what that means for themselves.

2:01:26Some people's generosity, they look at it like an ROI. I want to give to something. I want to give to things that I want to see multiply. Some people like to give just because I want to be a part of what you're doing. Some people want to give because I don't like it, but it's the right thing. I have deemed it to be the right thing, right? Right. But none of that comes from a spirit of guilt. That's where I'm at. And here's the other thing. None of it comes from a spirit of somebody's going to be worse off because I kept doing this. Because then my guilt ends up putting somebody in a worse position.

2:02:11it's never the guilt of them being in a bad position but it's the guilt of them not learning from their mistakes is is the problem that i grapple with yeah but the challenge is they're not interested in learning right now correct right and so i think it's having that kind of conversation um and i it sounds to me in my head there would be a difference between my parents situation and my sister right but but again everybody's different like meaning of just like taken care of like you yeah like I mean it's it's cool to say like they didn't plan so they're on their own but also I'm not going to let my parents be homeless right right especially if I'm in a position where I can help out and so but I might sit down and say hey if you take on any more debt I can't contribute to this right yeah or I need you to make have you had have you had hard conversations in general April with them yeah yeah um I have and I've even sat down and like worked budgets with them.

2:03:11And then they, you know, the next month, they just blow that up and they do whatever they want and they buy whatever they want. So we've gone through several conversations of how can they do better and what can we do to set them on the right path. They went through their own foreclosure and bankruptcy six years ago. I mean, nothing's waking them up, it sounds like. No, they've had two bankruptcies, actually. So you go through financial literacy training with bankruptcy so it really boggles my mind that yeah they're just not learning how old are they 70 they're yeah yeah they're just 70 so and what would happen if you didn't i'm just curious if you did not give them any money what would what would happen to them would they not be able to pay their mortgage like like logistically what happens i think that they would fall into a position where they couldn't pay their rent and they would eventually have some eviction process.

2:04:11And then what? I don't know because physically, financially, they're not capable. like we're actually looking at my mom going into an assisted living because of how bad things are and uh so it's more than just financial but it's uh you know i i love to dedicate my time to help them with their problem and i do dedicate my money but you know there's a there's a give and take yeah well i i personally if i if somebody comes to me if a buddy of mine from back in the day comes to me and says, Hey, I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z. I need some help. I'm much more likely to say, I will help with this car repair, or I will pay the landlord directly, or I, me and two of my siblings will contribute to, you know, the long-term care.

2:05:07I'm not going to write you a check and hand you cash. Right, right, right. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to do this because you are prove, have proven over and over you can't handle this stuff. I think you and your husband need to get in a room together and just decide what are our boundaries going to be. What's your husband say about it? So this is where we break all the Ramsey rules because we've been together 13, 14 years, married three of those, and we never completely merged our checking. Okay. So does he know you're giving them money? He knows. Yeah, he knows. And it's always a conversation every time I do it because, you know, it's our future.

2:05:55We do have planning together. This is a recipe for simmering resentment over time. Yeah, yeah. So I think this is the moment, April, honestly, that you guys combine everything and you say we are a team, which means we're going to tackle one of the hardest issues. Probably we're going to have to in a while. and that's what is being generous with my parents look like and we're going to agree together on that with our money and there's something about that spirit that kind of like it's almost like you're adding a conflict to a really hard thing but there's a part of me that's like it kind of forces it all out there for you guys and and and it forces you to face the music together and for you to maybe to hear some things you may not want to hear or need to hear vice versa with him I don't know there's something about it that I'm like you guys need to go all in together and this is kind of like one of the springboard moments to allow it yeah yeah and you have to like i would just metabolize nothing you can say or do is going to change how your parents act yeah that ship has sailed you have to decide what are you going to contribute out of a spirit of generosity and um i've i'm gonna do x y or z but we're done trying to teach as for your sister maybe you say This is the last time I bail you out unless you want to do a budget with me.

2:07:12Thanks for the call, April. Thanks to everyone in the booth. John, thank you as always. And remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.