Financial Pain Creates Real Change

22:31George Kamel:Still fights, but no money fights. Yes. That's a healthy marriage right there. That's good. If there's no fights, I question the marriage. I go, something's weird. You're not being real. Yeah. But money fights I could do without. That's fantastic. So if you want to check out Every Dollar, you can get it in the App Store or Google Play. Download it today if you want to find that margin. Paula is in Boston up next. What's going on, Paula? Hi there. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can Jade and I help? Okay. So I have two daughters. Well, my husband and I have two daughters. They are ages 9 and 12.

23:01And we are in a really neat place where we're about to move from baby step two to baby step seven. Which is the last one, right? Whoa. Yeah. Can I ask what happened? Well, it's kind of a mixed emotion. So we live in a very high cost area. And my husband has a line of duty injury from the military and a line of duty injury from law enforcement here. So he's going to be getting double pension and then military retirement as well. And because of the high cost of living here, we are actually selling what we're looking to sell our home here and then purchase in a lower cost of living area. And the home will be cash.

23:45George Kamel:Wow. That's a blessing. And thank you for his sacrifice and service. Thank you so much. He's right here. I'll pass it along to him. Wow. Okay, so baby step two to baby step seven, just like that. Yeah, a lot of work in between. But yeah, essentially, it'll happen pretty quickly, God willing. But we have two daughters. They're 9 and 11. And because of his veteran status, we're wondering whether to invest in a 529 for our daughters. As a 100 % disabled, as dependents of 100 % disabled veterans, they're eligible for yellow ribbon schools and to use the remainder of his GI Bill. So sometimes it's half and half.

24:25Sometimes it just depends on what the funding is. But it's very likely that many colleges within the United States, they could go to them for free. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. So we just we want to make a wise decision and support them. But we also, you know, want to enjoy our money and not kind of put it away without necessity. Mm hmm. Yeah, I would. This would weigh into my into how I invest for school. I think knowing that this is there. I'm not sure what all would be covered. Does it include just tuition or is it room and board and all those other things? Do you know? I believe it's just tuition.

25:00Okay. I might invest a reasonable, like a smaller amount of money in a 529, knowing that, okay, if they go to a four year, they're going to need books. They're probably going to, you know, maybe they're going to want to live on campus, that sort of thing, a meal plan. I just wouldn't overly fund it. And there's calculators out there that you can use, but just something to keep in mind. the 529, whatever money that's left in there, not all, but up to$35 ,000, I believe, per child can be rolled over into a Roth IRA if they don't use it. So knowing that is kind of helpful. Also knowing that that money could pass to other siblings or other family members is also, I don't know if you would have anybody or if you or your husband has any need to hire your education, but those are good things to kind of keep in mind as you fund that and what amount that you put into that.

25:56Okay. So if there's money left over, that amount can go into the Roth, but then what happens to the rest of it if it's not used?

26:02George Kamel:You can pass it on, change the beneficiary at any time to even grandkids. Or, I mean, there's a worst case scenario where you can just use the money. There's just a 10 % penalty. Yeah. Oh, okay. So it's not like you can't touch it. Just know anything beyond the 35 ,000, uh, yeah, 10%, which is not fun, but at least you're getting to your money. So it's not going to just disappear, but I would do a lot of homework on this because there's still a little bit of a fingers crossed, not knowing, you know, all the ins and outs, the fine print of this, because I, my understanding, the GI bill can only be used at one time for one person or the benefit split, which means it's, you know, half a benefit each.

26:40George Kamel:So that's the part where I go, if you're still on the hook for the other half, Well, now we need to make sure we have some savings to cover that. Yeah, there are certain schools throughout the United States. Like I know Liberty University is 100 – like it has a – so it's a yellow ribbon school, so they pay 100 percent of the tuition. Wow. So anything that's left over for additional – so some schools will say 50 percent for yellow ribbon. The other 50 percent is the GI Bill. So we would just encourage them to go to a yellow ribbon school. Yeah. Understood. Okay. And again, there's a fingers crossed there because you – Can you force your kid?

27:12George Kamel:I hope, but maybe they go, no mom, I want to go across the country to XYZ school because of this program or a boyfriend. And you're like. Listen, okay, I have to speak on this because Paula, if that happens, the answer is no. You're on your own, kid. You're on your own, kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And that's where the conversation's happening early and often to where those kids know exactly where you guys stand. That's right. They know exactly how to go to school debt-free if they so choose. And I hope they choose that. But again, the 529 plan is a great backup plan to have because you can use it for so much more than just that tuition.

27:47George Kamel:And it's not going to hurt. You put, you know, 200 bucks a month in there from, you know, 11 to 18, you're going to have a nice buffer and not be worried about any spillover or gap. Yeah. And just some nerdy things to keep in mind that 529 needs to have been open for at least 15 years before you can start rolling it. and the annual Roth contribution rates still apply. So whether it's 8 ,500 or maybe by those years, it'll be like 11 ,000. Who knows what the amount will be. So if you open them now, the kids will be 24 and 26. Well, that's great. They just have a starter retirement plan right there if you have two 529s for them.

28:25George Kamel:So I love that you guys are thinking about this and it's an unfortunate circumstance in which you guys are leapfrogging the baby steps. But again, we're so grateful for your husband's service. So that 529 rule was part of the SECURE Act. Yeah, 2.0. 2.0. And I got to believe, you know, I feel like$35 ,000 is kind of low, but I got to believe that that might come up over time possibly as Roth limits, contribution limits go up. Do you know what I mean? Because you can only convert up to the amount of the Roth IRA. So this year, you know,$7 ,500. So you can't do it all in one fell swoop. But it goes up every year.

29:00So you got to believe 15 years later, which is when the Roth would be eligible. Yeah. Yeah.

29:04George Kamel:Yeah. That's the hope. You never know with the government what they're going to do. They could revoke the whole thing. You never know. I'm just glad there's an option because for so long people were like, well, I don't want to do it because what if they don't go? Yeah. And I go, we have a student loan crisis upon us with about$1.7 trillion. Yes. I'm more worried they're going to go into crippling student loan debt than the wonderful problem of what if they don't go and I have a pile of money sitting here that I can change to any beneficiary. And what's cool, I mean, this can become a generational college endowment fund when you think about it.

29:34George Kamel:by the time your kids have grandkids. You don't even have to add anything to it. It just grows. It'll just snowball into this massive pile of money. That's not a bad thing. So I like that idea. I'm not like aiming for that, but if it happens, I'm not mad about it. It's not bad. That old Grandpa George started a scholarship fund for all of the kin. Kin. I think that's what you call him. That's very Beverly Hills. What's weird to think about is I'm going to be somebody's ancestor. That's just weird to me. I don't want to think about it. I think that blew my mind a little bit. I don't want to think about it.

30:03George Kamel:But it's a good teaching on the baby steps here, Jade, of when to do this. Because some people, they love their kids so much, they forego investing in their own retirement to try to put away some money for junior. Yeah. So let's talk about that. There's a time to begin investing. You've got to put your own mask on first. I've heard you say that. I think that's a really great analogy for it. Over here, we're going to teach you get your own house in alignment, your personal business first. That's you paying off your debt. We teach a series of baby steps. Baby step one, get$1 ,000 saved. That's pretty quick.

30:32most people do it in 30 days, George. Baby step two, we talked about it earlier in the show. This is where your debt snowballing all of your debt, everything except the house. And then from there, now we're going to start playing a little bit of offense. Is that a good way to say it? We're going to start saving up some money for ourself, three to six months of expenses. It's a barrier between you and life, making sure you no longer go into debt, making sure you're in a really good financial footing so that you can begin baby step four, which is investing. Now we're starting the process of investing baby step four five and six we do simultaneously you know what that means at the same time so baby step five now is the 529 you could do an esa there's limits there i like a 529 we just gave you the details about it yeah i do 529 plans for both of my kids couple hundred

31:19George Kamel:bucks in there from zero to 18 you'll have six figures in there which is by the way what it's going to cost for a normal state school by then you ain't lying god bless let's keep saving

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32:58George Kamel:Alice is up next in San Antonio. Welcome to the show, Alice. Hi, thank you so much. My question was, what is the difference between being generous and enabling poor financial habits with family members? Ooh, love this question. And also, I'm sorry. How close are these family members? They're my husband, siblings, and mom. Oh. Ooh. Well, I think you said the difference in your explanation. I think the difference is poor financial habits. I think that is the difference between helping and enabling. If somebody has really poor financial habits, and let me add this part, they're not interested in changing them, that is the difference.

33:45Because I think all of us started out at a point where we had a lot to learn financially. and when the knowledge came, we were willing to receive it. We were willing to look at ourselves and go, okay, yeah, they're right. I need to change. But if these family members are not willing to do that, that's where it becomes, I believe, enabling because it's no longer helping them.

34:07George Kamel:Yeah, if there's no movement toward independence and the direction is not toward freedom for themselves and autonomy, well, then we're just giving to give. And if they keep asking for more giving, it's not really giving at that point. It's entitlement. So is that where you guys are at? Are they every month going, hey, can we get 500 bucks? No, and it's not even that much. And so like maybe it's just in like my head, but it's, we've been married for seven years now. So I would say over the course of seven years, it's probably been like every three months or so. And it like rotates between them.

34:42And then sometimes his friend also acts as well.

34:45George Kamel:So what has been going around that you it's bank of Alice. Are you guys wealthy? No. And we've also gone through like different jobs. Like we have two little kids at home. And so I stay at home and work. I do some like side stuff. But like between us, you know, we probably are on track to make about 70 this year. But, you know, up and down. So it's like it's not even like, you know, we're working six figures, you know, getting six figures. Why do they make the assumption that Alice and friends will be able to fit the bill? Why do you think that is? Because you've given them money before? Yeah, and I'm not sure what he was doing, like, when he was single and stuff.

35:28But it just has been, you know,$25 here,$50 here. I need help covering my phone bill. It's never really been like, we can't put food on the table. It's always been like, hey, this bill is here. So I don't know where it started and whatnot. But I just like know that it just keeps it's still, you know, seven years later, every once in a while it comes up. So I, you know, I feel like I'm in a bad position because it's like we have twenty five dollars we could send them. But I just know it's going to come around again. Yeah. And so and I don't want it to be five hundred or a thousand in the future kind of thing.

36:06Are you guys debt free? Yes. You're debt free. What baby step are you on? um i haven't really been following them um but we just re-rent we don't have any credit card debt we had school loans when we got married but we paid them off within the first year um and then and we had some credit card debt but then we paid it off and do you have any savings um yeah uh we're working towards like three to six months of um you know built up so i think we're about two months ahead on our budget. Okay. What does that equate to dollars wise? I think it's 3 ,800 a month. Okay. You have 3 ,800 saved or that's what you...

36:50So all in total, it sounds like crazy, but between all of our accounts, we probably have about$20 ,000, but I have it like all year marked for months or a car fund or stuff like that. Okay, so the small tweak, and you didn't ask, but I'm just going to say this. The small tweak that I would make is I would make sure to do the math and figure out what would be six months of expenses. With$70 ,000, I like the idea of you having a full six months of expenses. It sounds like only one of you is working, not both of you. Yeah, my husband is working full time and then I do like contractor work every once in a while.

37:25Yeah, I'd love for it to be a full six months of expenses. And I might hold back on the funds, especially if it's not something that's really, really pertinent to the moment. I would hold back on doing the funds and get the six months settled. And then above and beyond, we could do the funds on top of that. So back to the question at hand. Yeah, you just have to say no.

37:47George Kamel:is your husband aligned on this or are you the one who's like hey i don't like this pattern he's like well it's just 25 bucks it's fine or is he just as mad as you are no he sees it as like it's it's only 25 and i see it as it's a pattern we need unification there weird yeah and that's where i feel weird because i'm like i enjoy being generous and but it like if it just are you generous in other areas? Like, do you guys have, are you church people that you do tithe, or do you have foundations that you give to? Are you generous regularly in other ways? Yes, yeah, we do 10 % to our church, and then we set aside another 10 % to just give to random things.

38:27Okay, and is this part of the 10 % that you set aside to give to the random things? No, not typically. It's usually like structured organizations, missionaries. Okay. So that answers that question. That answers that kind of moral dilemma of, am I not a generous person? Clearly you are because you are giving, it sounds like 10 to 20 % of your income, which is very, very generous. So that answers that moral dilemma. Anything beyond that is, is this is the relational part of it, which is somewhere in his mind or upbringing, he kind of feels like, well, this is just what you do. You know, if your buddy asked for 10 bucks, you give it to him.

39:09We're not hurting. So what's the big deal? Now there is, I do want to, I think there's a, there's a difference here. If my, if a friend, if a friend of mine was like, Hey, we're out to dinner. She forgot her wallet. Of course, I'm spotting her the 25, whatever it is. That's very different than, Hey man, you know, I'm just coming on some hard times. Can you, can you spot me? You know, I just got, I need something for my cell phone bill. Right. That it's a different feeling. Cause it's like, well, what's causing this? So what you can do a very amazing way to be generous. If you have not already done this is you and your husband, number one, to George's point, you got to get on the same page.

39:44But when you do, you sit down with the mother-in-law, you sit down with the friend, you sit down with the siblings and say, Hey, here's what separately, not at the same time, here's what we're seeing. it just sounds like you guys we love you guys and it just sounds like you're going through a hard time we'd love to show you the thing that helped us we've been there and we started walking these baby steps we thought it'd be a great idea we'd love to gift you this and you can gift them every dollar you can gift them financial peace university matter of fact before you leave we'll give you the total money makeover put a bow on it and say this is the best gift that we could give you because it's what helped us and we know it can help you too.

40:22And that to me is a subliminal way of saying, stop asking me for money.

40:27George Kamel:They'll get the memo pretty quick. And it's okay to just say, hey, we're not able to do that. Hey, that's not in the budget for us, but we'd love to sit down and help you create a budget and help you avoid needing money for bills next month and the month after, because we're seeing this pattern and we love you. And so it's not out of a place of, you know, you're better than them. It's out of a place of love actually. And if they never feel the consequence, then they're never going to change the behavior. So you're not being cruel by stopping. You're actually letting the reality of their life do the teaching that you can't.

40:57Yeah.

40:58George Kamel:And that's the hard thing to do with family, people that you love. Yeah. And then they feel a certain way about you and they go, wow, that was so stingy. Well, this is the part of money. This is the part of money that is emotional, which is it all has to do with the way we were brought up. If you were brought up in a way that, you know, everybody just kind of, it's a pot of money and you just kind of throughout the family, mom gives to dad, brother gives to mom and dad, grandma, you know, and everybody just kind of reaches in. That's very different from probably the way that you grew up with money emotionally.

41:27And that's why the two of you, you and your husband need to kind of sit down and have a meeting of the minds there because it's not necessarily that one is wrong or right. It's just your values and how you view it. because some people might argue, hey, if the money doesn't bother you and you can do it, do it. Some people might argue that. I would disagree with that, but it's from a value standpoint. Got it. That makes sense. Not to rain on y 'all's parade, but we did buy them budgeting books for Christmas two years ago. Was it every dollar? No, it was a different one, but maybe we'll have to throw it.

42:07Well, it's collecting. That's why it didn't work. I'm just joking. To be fair, I don't even know if they read it. Well, we'll give you every dollar because that's the one that'll actually work. And we'll also give you total money makeover. George, what about breaking free from broke? Let's throw that one in there. Yeah, and I'll give you mine also, what no one tells you about.

42:26George Kamel:Well, there you go. So the key pieces here are guilt-based giving is not generosity and enabling isn't love. And the sooner you can understand that and put the boundary up in love, the better your life is going to be, the better your marriage is going to be.

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44:05George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm George Camel here with Jade Warshaw. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Danny is up next in Orlando, Florida. Danny, how can we help today? Hi, thank you guys for taking my call. Sure. So a little background. Me and my husband have been married for about a year and a half. He immigrated here from Peru. He's been here for about five years now. he has a high possibility of being deported before our family case is approved. So that decision will be made in December. So we still have about$15 ,000 in credit card debt that we were working on paying off.

44:53But my question is, should we just keep to paying minimum payments and try and stack cash in this time? since of the, you know, I don't know. If he is deported, it'll be like two to five years before he'll be able to come back.

45:07George Kamel:Oh, my goodness. So I'll be going with him, of course. Right. That was going to be my ask. And what are the financial implications if this does happen? Like come December, let's say he is deported. You go with him. How much money is this going to cost you guys? And what will your new life be like? It depends. He could be detained for a couple months before he's deported. and then it's kind of up to the government as to where they'll deport him to, then we may have to pay for him for a flight to a new place that's a little safer for him. He's thinking about going to Spain. He has a buddy that lives there that could help him out with starting his life there.

45:44And you're just going to follow him wherever he goes? Absolutely. Okay. What are you guys doing for work? That's my husband. Right now we both manage a kitchen. I make about$26 an hour and he makes$23 an hour. And then we also have a bunch of side jobs. So we're bringing in about$8 ,000 a month. $8 ,000 a month. Okay. And are you renters? Do you have a house? Tell us about any assets you have. We have two paid off vehicles, one that has a loan on it, but it's not upside down. It's a wash if we sell it. So we have three vehicles. We're selling the one with debt on it to get that monthly payment out.

46:27We have monthly bills of about$1 ,000 in lawyer fees. And then the rest of our expenses are about$3 ,000 a month. So we'd be able to save a decent amount of money. But paying off all that credit card debt, I think I'm not sure if it would be wise to do that, given we might need it. Yeah, I'm calling this storm mode for you guys because it's a storm and you know what's coming. And so I would treat it that way, just like we would if there was a baby coming or if you knew you were being laid off, that sort of thing. Did you say that you're renting? Yes. Okay, you are renting. Okay, so if you were to go, let's pick Spain.

47:12If you were to go to Spain, I'm guessing you would sell the remainder two cars. And how much would that give you? About$7 ,500 for both of them. Okay, that'd give you another$7 ,500. And then if you were to stop, just pay minimum payments and stop debt snowballing, how much would you have saved by December to add to the$7 ,500?

47:40To get out of the apartment, it's$3 ,000. We'd be breaking our lease. Okay. And then after that, we could probably save up about$15 ,000. Another$15 ,000? Okay. Okay. What I would start doing is to try to, and I know that you don't know, you mentioned Spain. So I would just start there. I would just start gathering as much information as I can. I'd look at where his buddy lives in Spain. What's the cost of living over there? What's it cost to get a two room apartment or a one room apartment? What type of job opportunities are transferable that you do here that you could do there? and I do the same thing for Peru, whatever area of Peru his family is from, right?

48:24And just start to get as much knowledge and information as you can. I think that's going to give you more peace. Yeah. More money, more information will give more peace. Absolutely. So it is wise to stop paying on the, well, just make minimums on the credit cards.

48:43George Kamel:Yeah. And if this doesn't happen in December, well, now you have a pile of money. just knock out those credit cards instantly. Okay. Okay. But if you can approach this with like 25 grand in your pocket, I think that's going to feel really, really good. And to kind of have a checklist of here, here's what, what we're going to do, we're going to sell the car, and then we're going to do the lease. And then we're going to do this and just kind of literally put down a plan of action, like document it, and document what it would look like going to Spain document what it would look like going to Peru, all of that.

49:14And I think that that's just going to help you feel uber ready for this.

49:18George Kamel:And you can use the EveryDollar app, Danny, and plan all this out. You can make a fake budget of like, here's what our new life could cost us. Here's what our current life costs us. And in the meantime, use that budget to create as much margin as you can. Now is not the time to go YOLO and life's crazy, so let's eat out. Now it's how do we use as little of this money as possible to stack it up so that not only can we pay off the credit card debt, but we have an emergency fund. We have no debt now starting this new life. So that's the end goal is can we, whatever happens, can we restart this process with no debt and an emergency fund?

49:51George Kamel:You guys will operate differently no matter what happens. Yeah. And spend some of the things to add to that list would be if you do go to Spain, you're going to likely need some sort of work visa as well. And what's the cost for that? So make sure you're factoring that in as well. That's a lot. That's a wild one. Wishing you guys the best. All right. Daniel is in New Orleans up next. What's going on, Daniel? Hey, how's it going, guys? Thanks for taking my call. So So I've got a question. So I've always used you guys as some advice for my kids growing up. I lost my father when I was young, and I've used the principles and teachings that you guys have had.

50:25Just getting to now adulthood, my oldest daughter graduated from flight attending school. The same day she graduated from college, debt-free with a bachelor's degree. And she's going to be doing some international travel with her new career. And I'm just trying to figure out how to navigate using a debit card during international travel. And what kind of advice you guys can give me that I can pass along to her? I love that. That sounds like an adventure for her. Well, I mean, I can tell you what I did. My husband and I worked on cruise ships and went to over 92 countries. And I had a debit card.

50:58And a lot of times I would call them ahead of time and let them know, I'll be out of the country. Here's where I'll be visiting. So my card would work in those different locations. I never had an issue with them thinking it was fraud. But also, because I was traveling, they knew to be aware that there could be fraud. And I had all the same protections.

51:20George Kamel:And another key point here is international fees. And you can avoid that. Our friends at Fairwinds, actually, they created a smart bundle for our fans that includes a Fairwinds debit card. And after watching my video that I did on this topic, they said, hey, let's get rid of international transaction fees for all of our users. So she can open up a Fairwinds account and sort of use that as her international spending money and keep her home bank account separate and just sort of fund it with how much she needs each month from that. And that will help protect her OG account as well. So that could be a great move for her.

51:55George Kamel:And on top of that, they will even waive$10 a month in ATM fees if you're international. So a lot of cool features there. Not intentionally a plug for Fairwinds. It happens to be the thing that came to mind of how to solve this. and for online purchases there's a great one called privacy.com that allows you to create virtual debit card numbers so that's another solution if she's making purchases abroad online they even can do a physical card as well but i think fairy ones would do the trick right now for her and uh i'm less worried about fraud now with things like apple pay yes and i try to use the local currency instead of converting because that'll actually cost you more to convert to usd but you know do the research nowadays it's easier with a smartphone that's right there's an app for everything.

52:37George Kamel:That's right.

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54:12George Kamel:Jenna is in Seattle up next. Jenna, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi there. So my question is, quick and to the point, should I allow my very generous boyfriend to pay off some additional debt of mine? Wow. Tell us more. What does additional mean? How much has he paid off so far? I have many questions. He paid off a personal loan that I had taken out to do some home repairs about a year and a half ago. And then about six months ago, he paid off my student loans. How much was the personal loan and how much was the student loans? The personal loan was maybe$15 ,000. And the student loan was probably$35 ,000.

55:01Oh, my.

55:02George Kamel:So he's paid off$50 ,000 worth of debt for you so far. Right. How much more is there to go? Well, all I have is a car and a home loan. That's the only other debt that I have. Do you guys live in your home? We don't live together. Okay.

55:22We maintain separate households. We've been together for about three years. He's widowed. Widowed. Any kids? We both have kids. are all college age. Okay. How old are you guys? In our 50s. Okay. He's retired. He retired young. Okay. He and his late wife did everything right financially. And I'm divorced. And so that kind of messed up my financial situation. But are you going to marry him? I'm just getting cut into the chase we we um we've both decided we don't want to remarry but we've we found you know we we're

56:02George Kamel:committed to each other so you'll continue to live in separate households and hopefully be together forever in separate households i don't know we're we're still figuring that out i'm gonna tell you jenna i think this question is more about you than it is about him because if you said to me this is the one like I think we're getting married I want to be with him and I think it's happening I think he's going to pop the question I would feel less of the way I feel right now which is I don't think you need to be accepting these gifts from somebody that you don't think that you're going to be on the long haul with fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money well I think we're going to be in the long haul we just don't necessarily want to get married I I was in a very abusive marriage.

56:50True that. He had a very long, happy marriage. True that. But you and I both know long haul doesn't exist without a committed, without commitment. And I didn't hear it. It's like, it could be like, I care for him. I love him. But I don't know. It was more like that. Is fair enough? I don't feel that way, but I can see how it comes across that way. That's my only thing. I don't hear me because this is on all the radio and all the YouTubes and all the podcast. I think you're a great person. I don't think that you're in any way trying to like scam this guy or anything like that.

57:27George Kamel:Yeah, you're not doing anything wrong. It's on his volition if he wants to spend his money how he so chooses. He could give 50 grand to a charitable organization or a gamble in Vegas. It's his money. He's choosing to help somebody that he loves, which is a very noble thing. We can all agree on that. I just don't know that I would accept such a gift if there wasn't a full commitment there, because this is the type of thing that could breed resentment later, I think. Right. Couldn't this hang over your head of, hey, I paid off 70 grand of your debt and this is how you – could that happen one day?

58:04I don't see that happening with him because he also pays for a wiggle on a lot of vacations and he pays for everything. He doesn't let me pay for much of anything. He has done well. Is he independently wealthy?

58:18George Kamel:He's obviously retired. He has a huge nest egg. If he's just willy-nilly paying off debts like this, it sounds like he's doing very well. He's a multimillionaire is my guess. Well, yes. We're very open about the financial situation. It's very lopsided. Give me an estimate. What's his net worth versus your net worth? He's in the double digit millions. Okay. And I'm in the less than half a million. Okay.

58:52For you, for you and your placement in this relationship, I love the idea. I'm not saying that you need to go back and pay him back the 50 ,000. I'm not necessarily saying that. but I don't want you to let him pay your car off. I want you to do that. Okay. I want you from this, if you take on debt, because you have said, Hey, we're separate. We live in separate places. We have separate finances and many you're dating. Like you, you guys have maintained your boundaries. I actually love that for you. Since you're doing that, I would do that in this area as well. No, it's my debt. I want to pay it.

59:30I think that allows you to maintain a certain amount of independence. And I think it allows you to keep the, if this were a marriage, it'd be different, but it's not. So it allows you to keep the balance of power right where it should be, which is there, no one can say that this guy is taking care of me, that I'm mooching off of him, that I'm living off of him, that I need him. You're still a very independent woman. And I want that for you. And I think it's a good thing for you. And I think it'll make you feel better in the relationship long-term. What do you think? That's kind of how I, that's how I feel about it.

1:00:05Okay. Okay. And he, um, he just, yeah. He's, he's just a nice guy. I can sense it. Like I really is. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And I think you're a nice lady too. And you're like, this is great. I think it's probably really great. I don't sense anything that's off here. I just, if I were in your shoes, yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not, but I listen, I'll take it a step further. I hope you guys do come in. Like, I hope that you guys find the trust that you need and find the healing that you both need because you both have been through it. I mean, you said he's a widower and you've been through an abusive time.

1:00:42Healing would have to take place in major ways, I think, for both of you to get there. But, man, if you can, it's such a beautiful thing.

1:00:51George Kamel:Yeah, marriage is not the villain here. And I know it feels that way because of your past experience. But being married to this guy is going to be light years difference than your last one, right? Right. I can already see that based on the way he's treating you and his generosity. So it's not that we're like, you better get married or else, Jenna. I just think it adds a different level of commitment. It adds a layer of protection on his part, even though he doesn't really need it financially. But the question to ask yourself is this. Is this help accelerating your own independence or is it replacing it?

1:01:23George Kamel:that's the part that worries us more than anything. Because what if one day you guys break up and now you were kind of needing him for his income and the lifestyle and now you don't have that. You don't have your own retirement. So there's also some protections you don't have in that regard. George makes a good point and I'll go further on that point, which is I love that the separation that you guys have created because that's just what I think is a normal dating separation and I think that that's good. But I think if you tie your finances up too much in the way of, yeah, letting him pay major debts, there could develop, let's say in the future, you're starting to notice some things that you're like, man, I don't know if this guy's the one.

1:02:04When he's done so much for you, it could make you feel like you need to stay with him longer than maybe you would have if these things hadn't been done for you. Does that make sense? It's like it could just create a cloudy vision there that I wouldn't want for you. But I don't see that happening. I think it's going to be all good, but I just want to throw that out there for you.

1:02:26George Kamel:What is your income right now? From my primary job, I make about$150 ,000. And then I get some of my ex-husband's pension, which all goes toward my retirement. And then I have a side gig. Yeah. So you're good. You got money. You've got your own thing over here. You can pay off this car in a couple of months, it sounds like. What's left on the loan? Right now, about$40 ,000. Okay. So if you took, let's say,$4 ,000,$5 ,000 a month, you could be done with this in 8 to 10 months. Potentially, yeah. See, there's my question. She's like, I'm not putting that much on it, George. If this was only on you, there's no urgency here.

1:03:11George Kamel:You're not changing any behavior that got us here. Well, we went out and bought a, you know,$50 ,000,$60 ,000 car. And that's the part. I want you to be good on your own to where you don't need him. And I think it's going to change Jenna. If she pays off her own car loan, she's going to drive that thing differently than if Jenna's boyfriend swooped in to pay it off. Now she's going car shopping again, going, what other debt can we get in? Let's play this game. This is fun. So I'm wishing you guys the best. I hope you have a long, wonderful life together. And yes, I hope you get married. Selfishly.

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1:05:09George Kamel:See website for full details.

1:05:23George Kamel:Buying or selling your home is a big deal, and you want an expert in your corner fighting for you to find the best deal for the right price. And the Ramsey Trusted program is the only way to find a top agent you can trust who will help make your home a blessing instead of a burden. It's super easy. You compare agent profiles, interview them, and choose the right one to work with. And you can do that at RamseySolutions.com slash agent to connect with a local Ramsey Trusted Real Estate Pro for free or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or podcast. Katie is in Sacramento. Up next, Katie, what's going on?

1:05:54Hi. So I had a question. I am getting a about$75 ,000 workers comp settlement. And my parents want me to save all of it for a down payment on a house. And I was wondering if it's valid to take$5 ,000 or$10 ,000 of that and spend it on my wedding for next year. Oh, okay.

1:06:18George Kamel:What happened with the workers comp situation? I got injured and yeah, I ended up getting an attorney and turned into this. Wow. So yeah. Are you okay now? Are there any kind of ongoing health concerns? I'm getting better. Yeah. I have good private insurance. So yeah, but I'm fully getting better now. I'm just doing a lot of different treatments. And you'll be able to work as you once did? Yes, correct. I start nursing school in the fall, actually. Okay. Cool, cool, cool. So you're getting married. Are your parents helping fund the wedding at all, or it's just you and your fiance fitting the bill?

1:07:00So it's a little bit of both. So his parents are pitching in a little bit, mine are pitching in a little bit, and then we're also going to have to pay a little bit on our own. What's the total budget? I think we're looking at about$15 ,000, and I'm thinking we're going to be splitting it three ways. Okay.

1:07:16George Kamel:$15 ,000, you said? Yes. Okay. So you guys collectively as a couple would owe five grand. Yes. Okay. And you want to take$5 ,000 of the$75 ,000 and that be your cut? Yes, correct. I mean, I don't see why not. Is there anything else to the equation we need to know about? Do you have a bunch of debt laying around anywhere? It doesn't sound like you do. No, we have no debt. We have paid off vehicles. And we currently are living in a trailer on our my future in-laws property to save money. I have my bachelor's degree, but I don't have any student loans. I have all of it paid off. How are you paying for a nursing school?

1:08:00It's only about$5 ,000 because it's through a community college. So my parents are offering to pay for it. They're paying for that. I mean, I think$5 ,000 of the$75 ,000 is a reasonable amount. I think the$15 ,000 wedding in full is a reasonable amount. I'm honestly impressed.

1:08:17George Kamel:You today's America. I agree. Yeah, definitely. And I guess my second part to this question is what to do with the rest of the money to help it grow over time until I'm ready to buy a house. Yeah. How far away is that purchase, you think? Is it a year, two years, five years? About five years. Five years. I'm 21 right now. The magic number. Ding, ding, ding. So the way we look at this is five years is a long-term decision. And so you could invest this money. You could invest it in like a brokerage account, non-retirement, put it in some index funds and let it ride. And hopefully in five years, the reason five years is sort of this magic number is because over five years, you're likely to see some gain in that investment account versus a shorter time period, like two to three years.

1:09:03George Kamel:You could see some market dips and you go to pull out that money and it's a smaller amount than you even put in. That's not the ideal scenario. So if that worries you at all, a high yield savings account is still a great option. You can make over 3%. You can jump onto fairwinds.org slash Ramsey and open one with the smart bundle. And that'll at least help your money grow and not get eaten up by inflation sitting in a checking account. Yeah. What would you do, George? Would you invest it or would you hold it your temperament? If I knew it was five years and I'm not going to get a little, you know, doom scrolling on Zillow and go, oh, really three years, then I would be comfortable investing it.

1:09:39George Kamel:And you can always contact a SmartVestor Pro on our website to help you invest that wisely. But otherwise, a high yield savings account, no one's going to be mad at you if you do that. Nope. Okay. All right. Sounds good. Well, thank you guys so much. Yeah. Good luck with everything. It's a lot of life change. That is a lot. Nursing school, getting married, trying to buy a house, especially at 21. Yeah. So much life left to live. babies, I tell you. Don't you wish you could go back and be 21 and debt-free? If I was 21 and debt-free, I wouldn't know how to act. I don't even think I would know how to function.

1:10:12George Kamel:I don't think I can stay that way at 21 with my prefrontal cortex. I'm itching for some debt. Listen, I think I needed to learn my lesson. Maybe it was good that I had a lot of debt. Some of us need to touch the hot stuff. Yeah, that's right. All right. Mike is in Portland up next. What's going on, Mike? Hi, thank you for taking my call. I've got two questions. One is much more minor than the other one. So I'm going to lay down the sort of groundwork here. So I'm 29 years old. I am a nurse and I make pretty good money. I currently make about$250 a year as a nurse. How? Travel? No, no. So luckily on the West Coast, I'm from Florida, and we make crap money there.

1:11:02George Kamel:And we get paid a whole lot more here on the West Coast. That's one of the reasons I came out here. And I do work a good amount of overtime as well. So this isn't just me working. Is this a specific type of nursing? No, I'm just a nurse in the hospital. Every nurse in my hospital could make that much if they work that much. Holy smokes. I mean, that's like doctor money. I'm just impressed. Way to go. Well, see, that's actually part of the problem. I mean, it's a good problem to have, sure, but this is the reason I'm calling, because I like being a nurse. It's great, but I don't want to do this forever.

1:11:35George Kamel:I do want to do more down the line. So I also have been here for about a year and a half, and I've got just a little bit over$200K invested in my brokerage account. and it's been going well and really I went into nursing because I wanted to do something else down the line initially. It's basically something you can go back to school for and you essentially are you work in anesthesia. Those guys make much more money than even the 250 I make. It's closer like 350, 375. But it's a three-year school to go to. And most of those schools will either make you sign a contract saying you cannot work during that time.

1:12:20George Kamel:And even if they don't make you sign a contract, you really, you can't really work in that time. You're so busy. It's pretty intense. Yeah. You're really not going to be able to work very much. So initially when I worked in Florida, I was going to make about$60K a year. So that was a pretty easy thing to pass up for three years to go to school and make a whole lot more money. But now it's so much more. To give up all this income. What would you be earning if you got the degree after three years? So pretty reasonably, anywhere between$350K and$375K, that would be pretty reasonable. And what's this program cost?

1:13:01George Kamel:um so that's the other thing um the cost of the program usually about one about 130 to 160 depending on the school but you also have to live right so you also most people have to take loans out till it's it's it's very similar to medical school because most people go to medical school they don't have um a significant amount of money to be even right off of well you've got the money invested to pay for the cost of the education, but you're not quite, the problem would be what would you live off of for three years? How much do you need to live for a year if you were just acting like a broke college student while you're in this program?

1:13:39George Kamel:So I pretty much live like that now. I invest my money very, very aggressively. Probably maybe like$3 ,000 a month. So you could live off, let's say, 50 grand a year, you could live. Oh, for sure. So you need$150 ,000. Plus the amount for the program, which is$300 ,000. You currently have$200 ,000. Here's a game plan. I would just work for another 6 to 12 months and save up another$100 ,000. And then you've got a nice little parachute to not work for three years and cash flow this entire program. And you will likely be the only person to graduate from that program completely debt-free. so here's the other option i think that's a that is one of the ones that i is one of the options i was thinking about um but the other option i thought about is why not just keep doing what i'm doing uh and what i mean by that is if i were to keep doing what i'm doing for about another five years um i would reasonably i mean you know assuming the market goes okay i i invest in very very safe.

1:14:41George Kamel:We got five seconds, Mike. Spit it out. You want to retire early? What? No, I don't want to retire early. I would just like to work for five more years and have about a million bucks invested. And then instead of going the anesthesia route, just go be a nurse practitioner. Yeah. My brother does that. That's a great field as well. I think either way, you're good. Follow your heart here. Do what you feel is right.

1:15:30George Kamel:The Ramsey Show Question of the Day is brought to you by Why Refi. Out of control, private student loans can make it feel like you're stuck financially, but Y-Refi helps borrowers explore refinancing with low fixed rates and payments that make sense for their budget. Visit YRefi.com slash Ramsey to learn more. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states. All right. Today's question comes from Travis in Maryland. He says, I'm debt free and I've built a successful career making over$150 ,000 at age 28. I will soon be marrying my fiance who is graduating from medical school with$475 ,000 in student loans.

1:16:11She seems flippant about this amount of debt when I bring it up. While the amount stresses me out, I've never had any debt because I paid for college vehicles and etc. out of pocket. How can I communicate to her the importance of getting this paid off once we're married? Once we're married? Oh. I wouldn't wait till then, bud. I know, because I'd want to show and prove. I'd be like, show me that you agree with this sentiment by starting to pay off some of this debt on your own fiance.

1:16:43George Kamel:Yeah, not being aligned on your values around money is one of the biggest red flags. It's a red flag. Big flag. You've got to get that part dialed in before you get married. Yeah, the fact that she seems flippant about it specifically is what would give me a little bit of pause here. Which, can we be honest, most people who went to medical school and went half a million dollars into debt are flippant because either they're in denial or it's monopoly money to them. Maybe so. Because they're like, well, it'll just take me a lifetime to pay this off. Yeah, I have a couple of questions. I wish you'd called in, Travis, because I want to know when is she graduating and I want to know how much time and when you're getting married so I can understand the time frame.

1:17:23what I think needs to happen is as much as she can begin starting to pay these off now while she's working and then once again I don't know the timeline yeah it says she's graduating

1:17:37George Kamel:we don't know when we don't know when she'll have a job what residency looks like all of that so this could be a long journey before she's making real money and so if they're married it's basically it's Travis's problem that's right so he's worried understandably about taking on a half million dollars of debt. And if she's not on board with him going, you know, full force paying off, it's going to be a problem. If she's minimum payments and he's like, we got to clean this up before we get a house. Well, there's going to be a lot of fights. They got to have this conversation. This is a conversation that you're not going to want to have, but you need to have.

1:18:06And you have to have the conversation and not try to manipulate the outcome for it to be what you want simply because you think you want to marry this person. You need to go where the facts lead, my friend.

1:18:18George Kamel:And I would get to the bottom of why she's flipping about it and do it calmly. You don't need to be defensive and instigating and yelling, but just say, hey, I want to know why are you so cavalier and nonchalant about this? Like, this is a lot of money. Yeah. And you might need to help show her that with some math and what a monthly budget would look like trying to pay off half a million dollars in student loans. And she's going to go, oh, I'm making 60 in residency for five years. This is going to be a tight life. Yeah. It's going to delay our ability to buy a home and go on vacations and upgrade the cars and all the things you want to do once you're married.

1:18:49George Kamel:That's true. So if you guys can at least get on the same page of here's the game plan once we're married, here's how we're going to attack this debt, then I would move forward. But I would not wait until you're married to have that discussion. I would not. And I want to – let's talk about this for a tad bit longer because I think this is important. So if you're dating someone and you want to start having conversations about money, the first thing you're just trying to learn is what their philosophy is around debt and spending. And I think the best way to do that is to simply float a question out there and listen for the response.

1:19:20Don't start by saying your point of view, because I think a lot of times if you're out with somebody, you like them, you think there's a future. If you have a sense of what they believe, sometimes you can kind of veer your answer towards theirs.

1:19:32George Kamel:There's a little bit of fake it till you make it. A little bit. Yeah. And you don't, and with this subject, you don't want that. So it would be as simple as me being like, so George, you know, so we've never talked about this before. Like, what's your philosophy on money? Like, what do you think about money? And you just, you're just quiet and you just listen. Really? What do you think about debt? Debt is fascinating to me. What do you think about it? And if he's like, well, you know, if you leverage it the right way, you know, learn. And I would, that night I would just, everything would be like, oh, that's so cool.

1:20:01Huh? you know does he ask you the question back be like these are all she shut down when you bring

1:20:08George Kamel:it up now it's something we got to dig into yes what's behind that what's behind that and it might be something from her childhood or how her parents handled money who knows shame guilt baggage but you got to deal with this stuff before you put that ring on it yeah there's got to be like three levels that you got to get to number one is just you learning number two is are they asking you or are they interested in your opinions on the matter? And number three, maybe they shut down the first few times, but if you go in there for a third try, is it still lock and key, or are you able to see a little bit more light every time you ask?

1:20:39Because if you are, that's a good sign.

1:20:41George Kamel:And the bad stuff is just going to be amplified once you're married. Yes, it doesn't get easier. Once you can really let your hair down. Yeah, it doesn't get easier simply because there's a ring on your finger. Yeah. Please. Good luck, Travis. Wish you the best. Terry is in Boise up next. What's going on, Terry? I am calling to get you guys' opinion about what constitutes a valid emergency to go into safety funds. Do you guys disagree on this? Vehemently. Oh, wow. Okay, what do you think constitutes as a financial emergency? um things like uh well so i've i've been on a long-term job search and so that's adding to my wife's stress about money um so that in and of itself is kind of an emergency which i've tried to include in the conversation um her take-home pay is about thirty eight hundred dollars a month And we have been using every dollar and been living on a very declared budget.

1:21:56And so when things like, you know, holes in the shoes or prescription contacts for our kids or a dentist or car repair, more like kind of preventative maintenance, car care a lot of times. She thinks that's an emergency. They put us over the$3 ,800. And I actually even know pretty much the exact amount that we should be supplementing the monthly income by about$300-ish because of how responsible we're being. But she is just very fearful of the savings going away because the job search has taken so long.

1:22:45George Kamel:Are you guys living off of savings because of you not having income? No, no. No, we're living off of her income. So, okay. The take-home pay. How much is in savings? $40 ,000. Oh, wow. This is about— Yeah. And you guys don't have any debt? None. No, we just finished—we went back to Financial Peace University through our church last year to get rid of medical bills and tax issues that I had from my company that has closed. Okay. Way to go. Well, you guys are in a better financial position than you think, especially once you get some income in the door. How long have you been going without income on your side?

1:23:34Almost a year.

1:23:36George Kamel:Okay. What? That feels too long. Zero income, zero work, zero side gigs? um i have been applied to everything so i'm a sales engineer in industrial automation um there's not a lot of that here um a lot of the a lot of the jobs that i've applied for like at the nurseries or just kind of like retail jobs they kind of don't understand what i'm doing there. They've actually made comments about like the jobs for high schoolers kind of thing. Sure. That's okay. That's okay if they make those comments. I told them I'm in the middle of a career change. It's fine. It's been confusing. It's been a little rough.

1:24:24George Kamel:Because you're saying 300 bucks would solve this per month. Yes. Yeah. And we have the budget history to show that. So$4 ,100 is really what it should be. If she's taking home$38, she needs to be taking home$41, or you guys need to be creating that level to cover all the bills. And so I'll say this. Here's what constitutes an emergency. Is it unexpected? Is it urgent? Is it necessary? If it's not those things, then we know, all right, this really was just poor planning. Let's add a sinking fund line item in the budget for car maintenance, for contact lenses, because we know that's going to come up every few months.

1:25:00George Kamel:That will solve a lot of these problems. But Terry, you got to get a job. Because you haven't had a job in a year. Any job. Any job. All the jobs. Make a job.

1:25:23George Kamel:Welcome back to The Ramsey Show and the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm George Camel, joined by Jade Warshaw. We've got open phones at 888-825-5225. You jump in, join the conversation about your life and your money. Doug is in Charleston, South Carolina up next. What's happening, Doug?

1:25:45George Kamel:Doug, are you with us? Did we lose you? Yeah. No, I got you. Good. How can we help? Well, I'm 50 years old. You said 50? Currently, yes, 50. Okay. That's right. and I'm retiring early. I'm debt-free. I've got$2.2 million saved up, and I'm spending hard on a 72T. Sorry, what was that last part? Your phone's breaking up on us. Try speaking directly into it. So you're$2.2 million, and then what? I want to do a 72T retirement plan. Okay. And what's your expenses every year? I'm okay to do that. I don't have any bills, everything I got paid for. I'm sorry, what? It'd be like much. Everything I have is paid for.

1:26:36George Kamel:You don't have any bills? No, sir. How does that work? Property tax and insurance. I mean, a cell phone and light bill and stuff like that, but not bills, bills. You know what I mean? No car payments, no house payments. Sure, but I'm talking about your life. I mean, you don't eat? Well, other than that, obviously, but other than that, no bills. Okay, because I'm thinking like health insurance, life insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance, property taxes, groceries, eating out, subscriptions. You got none of that? Well, yes, we have that. I haven't figured that up exactly. I'm guessing around$4 ,000 a month.

1:27:15George Kamel:Okay. Maybe$5 ,000. So to run your house,$5 ,000 a month,$60 ,000 take-home pay would cover you every year? Yes, I would think so. Okay. Who else is involved in this picture? Just my wife. Okay. And is she working or is she retired? No, she's a stay-at-home mom. Okay. How old are the kids? They're grown and gone. Oh. So she's no longer, she's a stay-at-home wife now? That's correct. Okay. Okay, cool. I was like, wait, man, there's no kids here. This is a sweet gig. All right. So you both want to retire? Are you both good with this goal? or is there sort of an encore career on the horizon for you that you want to pursue?

1:27:59Well, I do some pressure washing on the side now that I would probably continue to pursue. And I guess one of the reasons why I'm calling is to kind of help clarify it for her and me where she's not nervous and I'm not nervous about doing it.

1:28:16George Kamel:Have you guys ever worked with a financial advisor? We do, yes, sir. Okay. Have you run these numbers by them to see the projections and all of the what-if scenarios? I have a team's meeting with my financial advisor Monday. Okay. But I wanted to get your opinion as well. I appreciate that. I just figured the more opinions I get, the better. I've listened to you all for years. I mean, you're in a great spot. If you're completely debt-free at$50 ,000 with$2.2 million and you have$60 ,000 in expenses every year, that tells me you're in good shape to do this. That's why I was asking about those caveats.

1:28:53George Kamel:Are there any upcoming expenses? Do the kids need to save for college? You've got a paid-for house, all of that. Where is this$2.2 million sitting? Yeah, is it Roth or is it traditional funds? Most of it's in a 401k. but about seven years ago they opened up a portion in our 401k to put it in Roth and then I have some I also have a Roth for me and for my wife outside of my 401k plan with my financial advisor. How much do you guys have in cash? Two point. Readily available cash probably about 50. Okay. Has your financial advisor talked about having some cash reserves or bonds or a bond tent something like that to help preserve your nest egg?

1:29:39George Kamel:No, sir, they haven't. Okay. That would be something I would ask about. Those are the kinds of things where I want to know every scenario. Let's say the market was down for three years. How would you guys make it without depleting the nest egg at the worst time? Those kinds of scenarios. And if you can, you know, dot the I and cross the T seven different ways, then I'm going, all right, green lights, go for it. Okay. And you can also try it for a year and if you're like hey the portfolio can sustain this we've enjoyed this then you kind of know and if not you're only 51 by then and you're a smart guy you can always go back to work and make some money right well yeah where i'm at is is a rather large steel mill and it's i could probably end up getting a job back there eventually but it's it's very hard on the body in this deep South in a steel mill in the summertime.

1:30:32So I don't know that I'd be wanting to go back there. And I get what you're going to say next. You're going to say, you don't have to go back to a steel mill. You could find other things to do. And I understand that, but I'm just trying to travel, do some fun stuff now instead of work all the time.

1:30:48George Kamel:Sure. I mean, at the rate you're talking about to take out enough money, now you're going to pay taxes if it's on the traditional side. So the other pieces of homework I would talk to your advisor about is Roth conversions. And then also the other pile of money outside of your retirement, which is locked up. And again, you mentioned that there are 72T, which can be a tool to access that retirement fund early. But I would try to let that money grow and keep compounding before you access it. So if you have other money you could use, and that might mean you work for a little bit longer, stack up some cash, maybe get a year of expenses under your belt and let that money grow for another year.

1:31:25George Kamel:But I think sitting with that financial advisor and going, hey, I need a final gut check. Show me every projection possible to make me feel really good about this. But you're talking about maybe a three, three and a half percent withdrawal rate, which if you look at every financial planner would say, you're good. You're never going to run out of money if you do it that way. But the question is long-term care, the crazy health stuff that could come up, big expenses that come up. That's the kind of stuff I want you to be ready for in case you go, man, I'd love to buy a car, but it feels like I shouldn't.

1:31:59George Kamel:I don't want you to have a sort of a limited retirement because you're scared to spend money because you're not sure if you're going to run out. And that's why I would have a lot of confidence going in. Okay. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. You've done really well, man. As long as your lifestyle doesn't inflate like crazy, you got a green light for me. Let us know how it goes. I wouldn't want to be in that steel mill for a single day, Jade. I don't think I'd make it. No. No. I wouldn't make it through the audition. They'd be like, hey, pick up that Pete. No, he's done. They would just look at a photo of me and go, she's not.

1:32:31She can't do it.

1:32:32George Kamel:Well, you know, especially in the trades, it is when a job is hard on your body, it's like you're in the NFL. You can't do this for 30 years. And so I totally understand. I also just go, I've seen a lot of people follow the FIRE movement, which is financial independence, retire early. and this is not a similar situation but they stack up a lot of money aggressively over a shorter period of time and they basically burn themselves out to the point of exhaustion panic attacks in order to retire early to do what to do what and so i always tell them what are you retiring to instead of from i think it's and dave and i had this conversation the other day on the air I think the word retire when you're that young, I think what you really want is work optional.

1:33:20Much better phrase. Do you know what I mean? And that way it's like I may not want to go to my nine to five job Monday through Friday, but if it's the right type of work and it's the right hours and it's on my terms, yeah, I'd be willing to do the thing I love and still make money from it. And I think that's probably what most people are after. I don't think most people just want to sit and do nothing.

1:33:40George Kamel:Yeah, retire feels like Price is Right reruns and bingo at the VFW hall. Yes. And I think that will lead to an early death if that's all you do. And trust me, I love bingo and Price is Right more than anybody. Options are what people want. They want the option to say not today. Flexibility, freedom. That's what you're after.

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1:34:55George Kamel:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. Before the break, we were talking to Doug and he was asking, can I retire early at 50 years old? I got$2.2 million in retirement accounts. I got$50K in cash. and he said he was going to use the 72T rule to do it. So we just want to take a moment to help our listening audience understand what that is because they're probably going, is this a life hack? Is this a loophole? What's going on? They're trying to bridge time because they've got time before they reach 59 and a half or maybe some people are trying to bridge time before they receive social security, all of that.

1:35:26And so it's how can I get at this money without being penalized for not being retirement age?

1:35:31George Kamel:Because the IRS normally will charge you a 10 % penalty if you pull money from that 401k or IRA before age 59 and a half. So section 72T of the tax code is the exception and lets you avoid that penalty. But there's some fine print red tape and stipulations, if you will. Oh, you love that, George. You love fine print, George. I love the fine print. So you can only do this if you agree to take what is called substantially equal periodic payments, S-E-P-P, from the account. So think of it like you're making a deal with the IRS. They're saying, hey, you can have your money early, but you have to take a fixed amount on our schedule, not yours.

1:36:07George Kamel:And you're locked in for five years to that schedule. Yeah. It's five years or to 59 and a half, whichever is longer. So in Doug's case, you're talking nine and a half years of making sure that you can live off of this exact payment. And so that's part of the risk I was talking about where you got to make sure your I's are dotted, T's are crossed before you just go, oh, cool. There's a loophole. I can do it. Well, where people get hung up sometimes is they know, okay, I won't be charged the 10 % early withdrawal, but they forget that they're still going to have to pay income taxes on the money.

1:36:36George Kamel:Yeah, because it's traditional. And here's the crazy part. If you miss a payment, take extra, change the amount, modify the plan before the lock-in period ends, the 10 % penalty applies retroactively to every single payment you've already taken, plus interest on all of it. The IRS does not forgive honest mistakes here. There's no, oh, my bad. Yeah. And so that's why I'm not a fan of this. It's kind of a last resort option, I would say. Yeah. And this is, so if you're wondering, okay, well, George, how can I access money earlier? How do I retire before 59 and a half if I so choose? And the much better way is to create what's called a bridge account.

1:37:12George Kamel:Yes. So this is where you just open a non-retirement brokerage account. You can still invest in index funds and mutual funds within that. And there's no penalties. That's right. You'll pay taxes on the gains of that, either long-term or short-term. hopefully long-term, because that'll be a whole lot cheaper. And that way you can access that money until you can access the retirement account. So think about if he had a million in a bridge account on top of his two million, well, now he's not even touching that retirement account. He's completely in control. It is just growing for 10 more years. And he has this million dollar bridge account to live off of in the meantime, and he'll pay some capital gains on that.

1:37:48George Kamel:But there's some really cool tax planning you can do to basically pay no taxes. If you're married filing jointly, get the standard deduction, you can basically take out$130 ,000 tax-free. I love that. So a lot of cool things there. Again, this is why you want to have a good financial advisor in your corner. And if you want to get connected to one, jump onto ramsysolutions.com, click on SmartVestor Pro, and they will nerd out 10x what I could do on this show. That was a good time. I hope you enjoyed that. If you didn't fall asleep at the wheel by now, hopefully. All right, Jade, Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that was built and trained on proven Ramsey principles.

1:38:24George Kamel:And we're going to break down some of the most asked questions of the week. We had a lot of questions. Look at this around saving for retirement, paying off credit card debt. But the most asked question was around zero based budgeting. My favorite, the main question, how do I create my very first zero based budget, George? How do I do it? This is great. So the core idea with the zero based budget is that every dollar gets a job before the month begins. So if you brought in $5 ,000, we need to allocate every dollar of that$5 ,000. So even if you have$3 ,000 in bills, well, if you don't make a plan for that other$2 ,000, it will disappear into DoorDash and entertainment and whatever else is going on in your life.

1:39:04George Kamel:So you start by writing down your monthly take-home pay. You can enter this into every dollar in the income section, each paycheck, and start with what hits your bank account after taxes. Yeah. And we like to say after that, once you go through and start your expenses, let the first line item of the budget be giving. It just puts your heart in the right place. Set aside 10 % for church, charity, general giving, whatever it is. That's the first thing on your budget. And then from there, go on to the most important four walls is what we call them. Your food, your utilities, your shelter, your transportation.

1:39:35And I'd say in a close fourth and fifth, it's probably insurance and daycare.

1:39:39George Kamel:Yes. And then of course, debt. If you've got some consumer debt, we're going to list that as the minimum payments. And it will actually break out the debt snowball for you inside of every dollar. It will break it out by smallest balance to largest balance. And then you're going to subtract until you hit zero. So if there's money left over, let's throw it at the debt if you got debt. If you're trying to save up the emergency fund, any leftover money goes to the emergency fund. Love that. And some people might go, well, Jade, I'm in the red. That's okay. My expenses are 3 ,500, but I'm only taking in three grand.

1:40:07Yeah, that's a learning experience there. And that's when it's time to start cutting back.

1:40:11George Kamel:You should say, glad I did a budget to figure this out, that I'm 500 bucks in the hole every month. Yeah, and you can look for areas to cut back. For most of us, it's areas of subscriptions, going out to eat, self-care. Those types of areas are the areas that we can cut back. And if you look and you go, there's no place for me to cut back. I am, then now we know we need to add a side hustle to the mix, which you can do. But just know it takes about three months to really get in the flow of budgeting and to really create a budget that's going to work for you and your family. That's right. So check out Ask Ramsey.

1:40:41George Kamel:You can get started based on your specific income and expenses. It'll walk you through it just like we would on the show. Go to RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're on podcast or YouTube. Kiana is in Seattle up next. Kiana, did I get that right? Yes, sir. Crisis averted. How can I help today? Thanks for the call. Thanks for answering. So my boyfriend and I are trying to figure out a plan for finances so we both can be on the same page in the future. What can we do right now to set up for success, and what would the alternative be to building up credit? Great questions.

1:41:18George Kamel:How old are you two? I'm 18. He's 19. I'm almost 19. How long have you guys been together? Officially six months, but we've known each other for a while. Okay. And what have the money conversations been like thus far? It sounds like you guys have talked about this a little bit. Yeah. We're both a little over planners. so um okay we're just thinking and talking and trying to figure out um just like how we would do things if we're going to be using credit cards or not because i was raised without like no credit cards are a bad thing my parents and i my parents are both debt-free except for the house i still remember when they cut up the credit card i love that so is there some tension because he's like what that's crazy like you got to have a credit card actually there's no tension which is great So he's good.

1:42:04George Kamel:He's like, cool. Yeah, I think credit cards are not a healthy tool either. Yeah, he's not. He thinks that they could possibly be used smart, but we both don't have enough information to figure it out together. Well, I think there's two paths that we need to cover on this. And one is, do you even need credit? Like, is credit necessary to your life? And then the other side of this is, and I'll probably start here and work backwards with George, which is. Okay. Please, please, please. At no point. If you guys, even if you decide we don't care, we don't agree with what Ramsey says about not needing credit.

1:42:48Please never co-sign together. You're dating. Who knows if you'll get married one day. But if he's thinking debt could be used in a good way sometimes, like maybe getting a car note. I cannot tell you how many times people call in here and they've co-signed a loan with somebody that they were once dating.

1:43:06George Kamel:Because they wanted to help them. Because they wanted to help. They wanted to build credit. They wanted to start their life together. And then it goes south. And he's looking for her to pay her into this car that they've co-signed on, right? So the first part of the conversation is whatever you do, please don't co-sign. If there's a co-signer needed, it's because that person would not be approved for debt on their own because they're clearly broke. and you co-sign with somebody. You know this. I'm saying it for those listening. If you co-sign with somebody, it goes the opposite way. You're on the hook for the entire balance.

1:43:39And then never do it.

1:43:40George Kamel:The other piece of this, you're talking about how do we build credit without a credit card. Well, then I go, well, what are you trying to build credit for? For a car loan? Well, I thought we agreed. We're not going into debt for a car. We're going to save up and pay cash. So all the things that you think I need credit for that, I would question it and go, do you though? And I walk you through this in my book, Breaking Free from Broke. So I'm going to send this to you as a gift. Because if you guys read this together, you're going to be reading off the same sheet of music. You'll be totally aligned.

1:44:04George Kamel:You'll know how to communicate about it, how to navigate life without a credit card, without credit. And I walk you through every piece of it in the book in the credit score chapter. So hang on the line. We're going to send you Breaking Free from Broke. If you want the audio book, just let our phone screener know. They'll get you that as well. I wish you guys the best. Green flag so far with this relationship. You guys are on the right track.

1:44:46George Kamel:Hey, George Camel here. We often talk about how being normal sucks when it comes to your money. But guess what? Normal isn't so great when it comes to your job either. Normal is staying in a job you hate, dreading Mondays, and working for people you don't even like. Sound familiar? Well, the good news is you can break free from normal because Ramsey Solutions is hiring, and we refuse to settle for the ordinary. In fact, we are anything but normal, and we are proud of it. And right now, we're hiring for technology, sales, marketing, writing, copy editing, and creative roles. So head over to RamseySolutions.com slash careers and apply today.

1:45:38George Kamel:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. We talk a lot about offense on this show, how to build wealth, but you also have to protect it as you build it. That's the defense side, and that's where insurance comes in. The right insurance acts as a shield around your loved ones and your wealth if disaster strikes, and our free insurance coverage checkup helps you figure out if you have the right coverage by giving you a personalized action plan with clear next steps. So you can take it at RamseySolutions.com slash checkup for free. Get that covered checkup. Find out if you've got the protection you need. Mary is in Cincinnati up next.

1:46:10George Kamel:Mary, welcome to the show. Hey, George and Jade. I'm so excited to talk to you guys. We're excited to talk to you. What's going on? So my question is, my husband and I would like some advice on what to do in our situation, specifically about paying off our mortgage. So we are in the process of adopting a baby and we would love to be completely debt-free before the baby comes. We have no debt except $16 ,000 that's left on our mortgage. And we're wondering if when we, yes, we've been working so hard and listening to your show and just so inspired by all the callers, it's really motivated us to get to this place and we're excited where we're at.

1:46:53But we're wondering if when we get down down to the last$8 ,000 on the mortgage, if we can just use part of our emergency fund to pay it off because we're just itching. Would it be taking it from six months to three months? It would. So we have$18 ,000 in an emergency fund currently. We have$36 ,000 in an adoption fund, which we think would cover the adoption plus time of me being off work. But we're thinking going to throw in a little bit extra towards that. We make about$75 ,000 a year combined, and our house is worth$275 ,000. Awesome.

1:47:34George Kamel:What's the mortgage payment, the principal and interest part? So we owe about$1 ,000,$1 ,063 a month, and we're down to less than, I think it's like$39 in interest. Wow. $300 towards escrow, and then the rest is on the mortgage. So you would free up just about$1 ,100 a month. It would, which is why we're so ready. Yeah, I feel that. Yeah, I would look at what will... We don't want to cut our savings too short. Yeah, what will your budget look like without a mortgage payment? I would calculate that out for a month and then go minimum three months and knowing you're going to stack it right back up.

1:48:15George Kamel:So that free up mortgage payment is just going to move to the emergency fund until you're back to six months, which is probably the better move as you adopt this sweet child. Yes. Okay. How sure are you that the$36 ,000 will cover everything? That's my only question mark because I know these can always be more expensive than you intended them to be and kind of drag out longer. Yes. We've already paid some towards the adoption. or towards the adoption. So it would just be, if it would be extra, it would be cutting into like my time off of work, would be cut maybe a little bit shorter. But we are pretty confident that we'd have maybe like 10 to 12 still for me to have time off.

1:49:06Okay.

1:49:06George Kamel:So that's covering the gap in income without dipping into the emergency fund is what you're saying? correct oh i love this you guys are such planners way to go so great thanks my husband is oh we lost you she was about to say my i'm guessing she was going to say my husband's so excited yeah they've done such a good job just know i didn't hang up on you mary that was on your own volition on 75 000 a year to save 36 000 for an adoption 18 000 for an emergency fund knock the mortgage knock the mortgage down rock star that is impressive don't tell me you can't do it because Mary just proved you wrong.

1:49:42Yeah, I'm inspired.

1:49:42George Kamel:She's making us all look bad out here. And what a noble, you know what it is? They have a big why. Yeah, they do. They want to adopt that baby. And that will, if you can put the blinders on and focus, you're like, I don't need all these other expenses and subscriptions and the vacations. I just want to bring that baby home. And man, if we can bring this baby into the world debt free, even better. That's a great why. But yeah, for the teaching on that, we always say you want three to six months in the emergency fund and people go, well, can I scale down the emergency fund temporarily? So my gut is always, if you can at least keep three months in there, knowing you've got a new budget, you don't have a mortgage payment.

1:50:19George Kamel:So that also changes the numbers, how much you need in that emergency fund. Then I go, all right, go for it. Just know you want to make sure that you don't have an emergency as soon as that house is paid off. Right. And on the bigger scheme of things, when people are deciding whether I should have three months or six months, is there a wrong or right? You do want to look at certain factors that can help you determine that. Are there two incomes coming in or are there one? If you're a one income family, in my opinion, you got to have six months. Like there's just a little bit more risk there. Therefore, you want a little bit more of a cushion there.

1:50:49What's the health situation of everybody? Are you guys healthy or are there ongoing health concerns? That's another one. If everybody's healthy and there's two incomes, three months might be all right. But if, do you see what I'm saying? So factoring that in.

1:51:02George Kamel:the jobs and income. If you're a teacher and a UPS employee, well, that's pretty stable. If you're in commission sales and you're not sure what the income is going to be, I would lean towards six months. I got to tell you, ever since COVID-19, I almost am always on board with six months, no matter what. It just makes me feel good to tell other people, hey, if you can get six months, just do it. Yeah. And here's the thing. Usually one spouse wants it to be more than the other. And I'm not going to stereotype, but generally the women have this security gland flaring up going, hey, we need a little more security.

1:51:35George Kamel:And the guy's like, no, we're fine. We got 10 bucks in the account. I can make that work for another week. And so I always lean on the spouse that wants the bigger one, go with that answer. You're never going to regret having six months instead of three, having more peace, more security. And the honest truth is that baby step three is one of the hardest baby steps. It is a sleeper. People sleep on how difficult because you've come out of baby step two and you think that you're about to have like this major relief of life is gonna get easy and then you're like oh holy crap it's this is this has got a level of challenge to it as well you don't get the excitement of knocking out a debt freeing up a payment that's what it is gazelle intensity like you still need the gazelle intensity without all of the fanfare well it's what you described earlier which is the why kind of gets hidden.

1:52:26When you're paying off the debt, the why is right in front of your face. You're like, I see you, Sallie Mae, and I hate your face. And so you're ready to make the debt payment. When you're saving money, you feel good about the fact that you're paying yourself, but it just doesn't have the same... You got to manufacture the tenacity.

1:52:43George Kamel:Well, it's like paying into an insurance plan. You're like, great. I'm glad this is helping to cover me in case of something happens, but this is not exciting to pay for. I don't love this. Nobody's stoked to pay for their auto insurance for the year, but you're real happy you have it. Right. And once you do see that six months sitting in the account, you're like, this is, you become, what's the guy Smeagol from Lord of the Rings? Oh, yeah. What's his name? Spiegel? Gollum. Isn't it like with an S? Smeagol? Gollum and Smeagol. Okay. Nobody knows. My precious is what I'm getting at. My precious.

1:53:16Yeah, it's funny. It becomes your precious.

1:53:17George Kamel:Once you build it, you're like. What's the man's name? You guys know what it is in the audience. Is it Smeagol? Is it Smeagol? Is it both? it's like pre and post Smeagol versus Gollum okay we got there it's the same person let's let's forget this conversation ever happened that I referenced Lord of the Rings this out because the nerds are going to come after you in the comments and flame you as the kids say you're gonna get roasted but it is true once you build the emergency fund it's like you built that sandcastle and it took you forever and you're like nobody touched this thing yeah nobody touch it and even a real emergency you're like no it's not an emergency and you'll do everything you can plan to keep it.

1:53:53George Kamel:Well, what's funny is once you build it, you stop having the same level of emergencies. I agree with that. Because they don't feel like emergencies. The flat tire is now just an inconvenience instead of a, ah! Yeah, because at that point, I also think your money management skills have reached an all-time high. And so you've become such a better planner. You can look at life and go, I see this coming and I'm going to plan for it. I know it, right? And I think that all of that just comes with time and financial literacy. And you get better at maintaining the things you do have, which causes less emergencies.

1:54:24Yeah.

1:54:24George Kamel:So it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. And most people go, I could cash flow this in my budget this month. I don't need to tap into it. All right, George, inquiring minds want to know. Uh-oh. Do you ever just have times where you're like, I feel good about keeping a little more than six months? Oh, 100%. Okay, me too. And my wife is that way. Me too. Like whatever my number is, she's like, double it. I'm like, okay, fine. And you know what? It's sort of like a life fund. Yes. If we want to buy something, a bigger purchase or an opportunity comes away or a generosity opportunity. You have the money.

1:54:55George Kamel:We have the money. So it's like you have an emergency fund for your emergency fund. I love the feeling of that. Can't beat it.

1:55:20you

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1:56:00George Kamel:Our scripture of the day, Galatians 1.10. Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. Amen to that. P.T. Barnum said, money in some respects is like fire. It is a very excellent servant, but a terrible master. said the circus guy a lot of fire in the circus he knows a lot about that Erica is up next in Dallas what's going on Erica hey guys thank you so much for taking my call ok so I'll get right into it my husband and I we're both 31 and we've been married for 3 years we're currently in baby step 2 and we're about$10 ,000 away from becoming debt free so I know we're not quite ready to purchase our first home We currently are living in my mother-in-law's house, and we only pay like the household bills.

1:56:57And last month, she told us that she will be selling her current house and moving back here, and she wants us to stay. And I know that over the years, she has said that she wants to leave this house to my husband upon her passing. So I guess my question is, is it financially wise to stay in the house, although it's legally not ours? or would it be better for us to just save up and buy our own home once we're ready? I totally, I understand the allure of thinking, oh, we could just stay in this house. It's going to be his one day anyway. But the reality is you'd be living with the mother-in-law.

1:57:40And I just think that something like that would drive a person crazy after a while. And the truth is that was never your goal. You never sat down with your husband and said, you know, it would be great. Let's live with your mother-in-law for, you know, maybe another 20 years until she passes and then we'll get the house. Like that wasn't the goal. The goal is let's save up and buy a house of our own. So I think that you should continue down the path of your original goal. And if circumstances change and she moves back in, that just means you've got to move out sooner and maybe you rent for a while someplace else.

1:58:16but don't let that affect what you initially set out to do. Okay. Yeah, we, I'm currently in nursing school and I should be graduating next May and now I already have a job lined up. So I know that we'll be able to start saving at least a year and a half after I graduate for us to buy our own house. So do you think while I'm still in school, we should just go ahead and move out because she'll be moving in by like the end of the summer. I mean, go ahead, George.

1:58:49George Kamel:I'm just curious. So she's moving back into her house that you guys are living in, correct? Yes. Yes. Okay. What would rent cost you if you moved to a reasonable place nearby? Yeah. So we do have two dogs and they're coming with us. So with the yard, I'm looking at anywhere between 21 to 25. $2 ,500 a month? So like, yes. Okay. And what's the current household income with you in nursing school? My husband, he works two jobs and he brings in$65 a year. And I only work like three days out of the month, so I only bring in like$1 ,000. Okay. $65 a year. So is he taking home like$4K a month or so? With overtime, he can bring in$5.

1:59:37George Kamel:Okay. So definitely not renting a$2 ,500 house. That's out of the picture. That's 50 % of your take-home pay. So the truth is we might need to sacrifice for a little while longer and live with mother-in-law unless there's some real issues here. Are there things where you're like, I cannot do this? We need to figure something else out? No, she's like a second mom to me. I love her to death, and her being here doesn't bother me at all. It's just my husband, he doesn't want us to stay for a house. Like he likes the idea of being able to live here and this home becoming his one day. So I guess that's like really where we're not seeing eye to eye, whereas I don't mind living here for the next five years if we need to save up or whatever.

2:00:28George Kamel:But if you want to stay there because you love it, that's one thing. But if you're staying there with the promise of one day, this will be mine. I don't love that because there's so much life that can happen in between. And we've heard all those stories. mom takes out a reverse mortgage because she ends up broke in retirement and has a health crisis and now this house is not what you thought now there's a giant loan attached to it you know and so that's where i go i wouldn't count my my uh my chickens before the what is it don't count the eggs before the chicken hatches something like that count your chickens before they're hatched there we go i i don't like this idea either um and i'll i'll say this and i'll i'll let it ride but I understand that sometimes culturally people have different ways of living and they're like family generational living is more um more than norm and I understand that however just from a marriage point of view I I tend to believe that marriages need their space to grow and become what they're going to be and it's just very hard to do that in a contained environment with mom there especially when it's long term.

2:01:34I just think you guys are so, you're young, but you're old to be living with a parent, right? You're young in your marriage, but you're also 31. It's not like you're 21. So there's part of me that's like, hey, be 31 and use your income and understand that, hey, if we want to be able to have this type of an apartment, we're going to have to improve our income in this way and allow yourself to stand on your own two feet. I think that would be my advice, barring the cultural statement that I made earlier, if that's part of this, and you're like, hey, this is just how we do it in my culture, then I'm not going to fight you on that.

2:02:12George Kamel:If you're going to stay, I would have an end goal in sight and make it stated among the group that we are gone by this time. And that helps add some clarity to the situation. John is in San Antonio up next. What's going on, John? Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my call. So I am finishing my internal medicine residency here in a year. So I'm thinking about, you know, where to move for my first real physician job. I have some family in the Bay Area, and I'm thinking about going there. And I was just, you know, wondering if that would be a bad move financially because it's pretty much the most expensive part of the country to go to.

2:02:58George Kamel:Well, do you want to go there? If you took the money off the table of taxes and all that, are you like, man, I would love to live in the Bay Area? Or is it, well, I could make more in the Bay Area, but it's going to cost me more to live? Yeah, I would say so that I do, you know, want to go there. Okay. Because nothing is set in stone. You could go there, try it out for two years, decide it's not for you, and then peace out. Yeah. And so I like the idea, if this is really where you want to go, and you're going, hey, I'm going to make, I don't know, I'm going to throw it at$300 ,000. Yeah, it's going to cost me a lot in rent.

2:03:34George Kamel:It's going to cost me a lot to live. But if anybody can make it work out there, it's a guy making$300 ,000. Yeah. Okay. So if you were like, hey, I'm going to make$40 ,000, I want to go live in the Bay Area, I'd go, hey, man, that's going to be a really tough life. Yeah. But with your income, do you know what it may be in the Bay Area? Yeah. The jobs, the base rate pays like$320 ,000. Okay. So we'll just half that because Bay Area. And now you're bringing home$160 ,000. And then you have to ask yourself, yeah. Look at groceries, where you want to live, what that's really going to cost. And that will give you some clarity versus just vibes.

2:04:10Yeah. Yeah, you have to think about your values and what it is that you're trying to accomplish financially. Are you going to want to be a homeowner one day? Are you going to want to have a wife one day that stays home? Like, what are the things that you believe that you want out of your life for the next 10 years? And would you be able to accomplish it living at that cost of living? Or would you be able to accomplish a level of that? And would you be happy with the level of life that it gives you? And then you have your answer.

2:04:39George Kamel:Right, right. How old are you? I'm on the older end. I'm 35. I'll be 36 when I... You're on the older end. What's it mean for me? What's this mean for me, John? I feel like... I'm done. I guess compared to my colleagues. You know, everyone... I'm basically seven years off. But I mean, to become a doctor, it's like a 17-year journey. So you've got to be in your 30s by the time you finish it. So you're doing great, man. And I would, if you want to pull the trigger on this, I would go for it after doing some homework. I would obviously go visit the area. That's a good start and get a feel for like, all right, this is what my life would be like.

2:05:19George Kamel:Kind of pretend like you're living like a local and this is where my apartment would be. Here's the lifestyle. And then you can go for it. Because at 35, as a single guy, you can always change your mind at 37 and nobody's mad at you. You're not uprooting too much. Best of luck. All right, that puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.