If You Feel Stuck, It’s Time for a Reset

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22:37George Kamel:The whole thing's free. Ramsey solutions.com slash webinar. Tyler's up in Orlando, Florida. Tyler, how can we help today? Hey guys. Um, one of the things that I've been struggling with, I'm on baby step number four. I just started investing and I have been investing, but one of the things that's kind of hard for me is investing in a Roth IRA or a 401k, any of those retirement funds. and the reason for that is because honestly I don't think I'll live that long and I don't know how to break out of that do you have a terminal illness no no sir so okay I'll bite how old are this isn't a money question you've got some sort of weird psychology thing going on that you probably need to get some help with because you just literally like I just don't know I mean what What age are you right now, and what age are you confident saying, hey, George, I think I'll make it this far?

23:39I'm 24. I don't know. That's part of the thing is I don't know that I won't make it or anything. It's just something kind of blocking me that, like, hey, you know, like 65,

23:53George Kamel:that's a long time away. Tyler, welcome to life. This is really going to freak you out. Can I get personal with you for a second? Can I be personal? Sure. Tyler, I'm 51. And I feel like I got a lot left to give. But I have no idea if I make it through to midnight tonight. Fair? Mm-hmm. Fair. So if I spend time thinking about that all the time, I'm not going to have issues with 401ks. I'm going to have issues with everything, yes? Yeah, that's true. You're 24. I hate to be so harsh. But, Tyler, you are aware that you're going to die, right? I do know that. Yes. And you are aware that you have no idea when that's going to happen.

24:38George Kamel:Right? Yes, I do know that. So I think you're focused on just the – I don't know if this is a stage of your life that you're in. I don't know you all enough to give you some sort of analysis. Like quarter-life crisis? Well, I guess it depends. It could be midlife depending on how long he plans to live. Yeah. We don't know. So are you single, Tyler? Yes, sir. Okay. This might change once you have a family. I don't know. But there's a piece of this where I go, the heart of this is I don't think planning for the future is worth it because I don't know what the future is going to hold. Right. Yeah, that's kind of what I feel.

25:12George Kamel:By the way, by the way, not crazy. I don't think you're nuts, by the way. But let's flip that. We don't plan for the future and then say, boy, that's silly. Why would we plan for something that we have no idea what it is? If you leave it to that, it's pretty good philosophy, right? But that's not what we do. We plan for it so that if we make it, we can actually make it. Correct? Yeah. Like what happens if you go, well, I'm 24. I'm not going to plan for the future. I'm going to live like I'm dying. It's a great Tim McGraw song, you know. And then I make it to my 40s and I make it to my 50s and I make it to my 60s.

25:54George Kamel:And then I wake up one day and I go, I got nothing and I can't work any longer. And now I'm really in trouble. gee whiz, I wish I had a plan for this. That's the flip side. George, what would you say to this? Because I don't think there's anybody better suited to address this neurosis than you. Well, there's a lot of angles here. But the one I keep going back to is there's a much higher likelihood that you retire broke than you dying at a young age. And that's what we're seeing right now is a retirement crisis because people went, well, I'll just save later. Right now I have other things to do.

26:26George Kamel:I got debt to pay. I don't know how to invest. I'm scared. Whatever the reason is, they don't invest and therefore they don't have anything later. And so you reap what you sow. If you plant corn later on, you're going to have some corn when the harvest comes. And if you don't, don't be surprised when you're 61, broke, working a job you hate going, I didn't think I'd live this long. Uh-oh. And so there's a lot of other questions around this that makes me think that maybe you just need some purpose in your work, a vision for the future, and you're just feeling a little bit lost right now. I wonder, are you a person who overanalyzes everything?

27:03Definitely, for sure.

27:04George Kamel:Are you in debt right now? No, I paid off all my debts, yes, sir. Why would you do that if we don't know what the future holds? Why not just get as much debt as you can, because we'll just die one day. Tricky George! You got him! That's a good point. I see. Why did you pay off debt? Why did you pay off your debt? I mean, just because I knew I needed. Like I was living horribly in every way possible. And I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so. Yeah, but why not rack up a ton of credit cards, second mortgages? Let's just go to the hilt because we're living for the moment, man. I don't know what tomorrow holds.

27:40George Kamel:Whee! Why not do that?

27:45I guess because I do, you know, I do want a better future. and so I guess I'm making an assumption that there is a future.

27:55George Kamel:I know. When you go to bed tonight, you're assuming you're going to wake up tomorrow. And I'd rather you wake up with more money than you had the day before. And it's not that you need to hoard wealth. I see, you know, like part of this is, are you worried that you're not going to get to enjoy the money? Yeah, it's, you know, if I put it into something like mutual funds or an index ETF, if I needed that at an earlier time, I'm not going to get all those penalties that I would take if I took it out at 45. I love this. Well, there's a much better solution. The solution is not, well, let me not invest.

28:29George Kamel:The solution is, let me invest in retirement and start to create a bridge account that's in a taxable brokerage that you could use before you're 60. Let's say you wanted to early retire, start a business, pursue some hobbies at 50. You're going, well, I don't want to eat all the penalties. Well, you can use this bridge account to cover those expenses. But you're not going to be able to do that if you don't start investing today. So are you completely debt-free with a fully funded emergency fund? Yes, sir. Great. And how much do you make? Around$4 ,000 a month. What do you do for a living? I work for a rehabilitation center.

29:06George Kamel:What do you want to do long-term? What does 44-year-old Tyler want? Oops, sorry. I actually really like this. are being promoted here pretty soon to run over an intensive outpatient unit. Great. And that's something I absolutely am so excited to do. I can't stand it. Well, that's great news. What's the health history of your family? How long do they live? Fine. The only person in my direct family that's died is my grandfather from skin cancer. How old was he? He was 68. Okay. So again, I really believe, I was not kidding earlier when I said therapy, if this stuff starts to grip you to where you're making nonsensical decisions.

29:54George Kamel:So for one thing, you believe in paying off debt, but you don't know why it makes sense to save money for when you're in your 70s. None of this makes you a freak. Having a little fun with this. And George and I kind of just walked you into some corners so you could see how your logic wasn't really playing out well. But at the same time, if you've got a real fear on this and this is coming from somewhere, talking to somebody is great. You know, let's just get me – what's going on here? Because I can tell you this. There's a fear, and I'm not going to unpack all this on the show, but in five minutes, we could – George and I can figure out pretty quickly, what is this undercurrent of fear?

30:29George Kamel:Where is it coming from? Because that's what's driving the very question that you're asking today. So be okay diving into that. Yeah. See how this affects our money? our fears affect our future. Because if you've got fears and doubts about the future and you're feeling hopeless about it, why would you invest? I agree. There's no reason to. But if you feel like, man, I got a life to live. I could live until I'm 90. I want to make an impact. I want to leave legacy. I want to have a family. I want to leave them inheritance. Then I'm going to get to investing. So what I would do if I were you, Tyler, I would fully fund a Roth IRA for the year.

31:03George Kamel:And then any money beyond that, you can throw into an index fund and a brokerage account and start to build this bridge account. From 24 to 65 or until 50, you're going to have a big old pile of money to enjoy long before your golden years. You know why I want a bunch of money when I'm in my 70s? Because you want a pickleball court in your backyard. I'm going to go, yes, as a matter of fact. And, you know, maybe I take all my geriatric friends on a pickleball cruise. You know what? You're going to be the guy with the boat. I want you to be my friend with the boat because I'm not going to buy one.

31:31George Kamel:But Ken and his little yacht with his little captain's hat, sign me up. You got me pegged wrong. I like all the boat outfits, but I think I'd rent the boat, not buy the boat. He's all about the fashion.

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33:27George Kamel:Hey, how you doing on your baby steps? Are you staying on track? Have you lost a little momentum? Awesome. One of the things I love that we offer is we've got a fun little quiz for you on your baby steps. Just a few minutes, and it's in the show notes. And it's actually, Are You on Track with the Baby Steps is the name of the quiz. And it just takes a few minutes and lets you know where you are and then give you a personalized plan on how to maybe keep the momentum or to get back on that momentum train. So check that out. Zach is up in New York. Zach, how can we help? hey guys i appreciate you taking my call today how you guys doing good how are you sir good good so you know i was just calling in um so my wife she picked up one of dave ramsey's books about four years ago and we started doing the seven baby steps um so we were lucky enough and we did I'm slightly out of order because I have$65 ,000 worth of federal loans for school, but I am in the public service loan forgiveness program, and I've been in there for eight and a half years at this point.

34:38So we sort of skipped around a little bit, and we were lucky enough to pay off our house last week. Whoa, congrats.

34:47George Kamel:I wouldn't call that luck. No one paid it off for you. You didn't want to sweepstakes. I'm dying to know. I think America's dying to know. What order are we in right now? So if we went to Baby Step 6, what have we not done? So I have to list up. We did Step 1. We have all debt paid off. We paid our cars off. We paid off my private student loans, which was about$75 ,000. I paid off both cars. We have about six months of our emergency fund fully funded. You did baby step four, you're investing 15%. So that's where me and my wife are both at about 10 % each. And so far together, she has about 145 saved up in retirement.

35:36And I have$75 ,000 in my 401k and then another$28 ,000 in a pension. So once that pension, if I were to, you know, continue with the pension, I guess when I retire, I would get about$626 a month. And that was one of my questions I was sort of leaning towards. I didn't know because, you know, sometimes pensions, you know, they sort of expire sometimes or sometimes they don't follow through by the time you're that age. So, you know, I invested$28 ,000 into the F, so I didn't know if that would be a good idea to remain in with the pension or if you guys would recommend maybe moving that over to like a Roth IRA, if that's even an option.

36:23George Kamel:Yeah, I mean, you'll do much better investing on your own outside of that pension because the returns are horrible because of how conservative they have to be, and you have no control. So it dies with you versus a Roth IRA, a 401k. That can actually continue down the family line. So there's a few things on the pension. But your question today, is it revolving around the remaining student loan debt? Yeah, so part of it is that, and then the other question is, what do we do moving forward? Like I said, since we worked hard, we got the house paid off. I wanted to hear from your guys' perspective, I guess, about the student loan debt, because I know...

36:59What is the question?

37:01George Kamel:We got enough information. What is your direct question? Okay. The direct question is, should I continue with my current payments of$308 a month until I hit the 10-year mark in hopes that it will be forgiven as I have my 10 years of 120 payments? How much hope you got? Well, I mean, as of recently, I've had about five or six colleagues that have gotten most forgiven who I work with. So that's the most hope I've got in a little while. Prior to that, I haven't heard too many people get forgiven. Exactly. And you're eight and a half years in out of 10. So you're like, hey, man, I've already, this is a sunk cost fallacy.

37:41George Kamel:I'm already this deep into it. Do I just ride it out and see what happens? Yeah. Do you have 65 grand sitting in a savings account right now you could pay it off with? Not right now, I don't know. I mean, we got, like I said, the emergency fund and then maybe another 15K combined in checking and savings. What was the original balance of the federal student loans? they were it's been about 65 it hasn't moved can i tell you something hilarious you have paid 31 000 plus toward your student loans and the balance hasn't moved yeah so this was not a free ride from the get-go that 308 for eight and a half years it costs you and so you can ride it out for another year and a half and hope that it's there i would personally if you're going to do that you would better have that 65 grand sitting there ready to pay it off in case something falls through in case you didn't dot the I and cross the T, and they go, nope, rejected.

38:37George Kamel:So I'm not mad if you hold on to this point for a year and a half, but I also think you guys have a high income that you could just knock them out at this stage of the game, especially with no mortgage payment. What are you guys making? Yeah, so I make$143 ,000 and my wife makes$123 ,000. So we're at about$266 ,000 total. This is the hilarious part. You guys could pay this off in less than a year, But instead, we've hung on to it for a decade for a false promise while paying$31 ,000 toward it and making no progress. That's the part that breaks my heart for you guys. Yeah, like I said, I was the first one to go to college with my family.

39:16So I didn't really understand taking out loans, exactly what that means in the long term. And I sort of found out the hard way there. And like I said, unfortunately, I'm eight and a half years in now. So I was trying to sort of figure out, you know, for the next year and a half, what do we do? And then, you know, what can we do for our kids moving forward so they don't have to deal with student loans?

39:38George Kamel:Well, that's all in the baby steps. If you guys had just followed it from day one, as it is stated, you got baby step five there. Once you get rid of all the debt, we're investing into 529 plans. That's what I just had another kid already opening up the 529 to start investing. Because you invest a few hundred bucks a month into that thing. It's going to be six figures by the time they turn 18. okay thanks to compound growth 529 so you guys are definitely pro 529 yes 100 there's also the education savings account but it has more limitations as far as income and contribution limits and 529 plans have come a long way and so they're they're a great opportunity to invest for college with tax-free withdrawals for education so i would do that but i first before you do that let's put our own mask on first and get rid of this debt and if it were me i would just knock them out.

40:26George Kamel:I know you're going to be mad either way. You're going to be mad you waited a decade to knock this out, making a quarter million dollars a year. And you're going to be mad if you just save up and knock it out in the next eight months, making$2.66. So you're going to be okay. You guys have done great. Yeah, you've shown discipline. Even if you've done it out of order. You don't get an A on the Ramsey baby steps, but you're doing great compared to the rest of America. And so I'm rooting for you. I hope you knock this debt out one way or the other. I hope the forgiveness works out because you've put so much into it at this point.

40:56George Kamel:It's just anger-inducing if the government decides at the final hour, nah, don't let them through. Oh, it's induced some anger in me. This situation for Zach has really steamed my broccoli. Uh-oh, and Ken hates steamed broccoli. I do. You should only grill broccoli, incidentally. I'll do roasted. A little olive oil, lemon. I don't mind roasted broccoli, but we digress. But can I just say that this is what really upsets me about the federal student loan program. And if I could just say to anybody who is considering it, if there's any way for you to avoid it, avoid it. The federal government should not be in the banking business.

41:34George Kamel:And this is banking. Zach's story. You've estimated he's paid$31 ,000 in interest. The principal hasn't even been touched. And the federal government did this as a favor. This was a good idea in the late 50s and 60s when this whole thing started. And the federal government is simply playing banker to millions of Americans, a lot of young Americans who've been told for decades by the culture, the parents we've bought into it. I haven't. You all have heard me rant about this before. The college is the only way. And what is happening here is this kind of situation. And fortunately, in Zach's case, he's not one that's been broken by it.

42:15George Kamel:But it does stick in the old crawl for me on behalf of Zach to go, when I heard you say it that way, it just really upset me. Math can be very upsetting. Yeah. And it's all in the guise of, well, get your degree and we'll help you. We'll give you a low interest thing. And it's just. And a lot of people stay in jobs they don't want to be in, in the public sector. and they could move to the, but they think, well, I got to do this for 10 years and ride it out. That's a big portion of your adult life. We ought to remove the federal student loan program. It ought to go away. Congress ought to get rid of it.

42:45George Kamel:Completely delete it and get rid of it. I'm with you on that. It's just, it's sinking so many people. And check out our Bar of Future documentary. It's free on YouTube. It will change your mind about the entire further education system we've got. By the way, on the whole broccoli thing, a little olive oil on it. I mentioned that. If you go back, listen to the tape. Did you say that? Yes. Wow, I took it like it was my own.

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44:43George Kamel:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studios. I'm Ken Coleman, the Natalie Attired. My name's George. George Camel joins me. I was just going to say something about the baby, and I couldn't get anything. That's all right. It's a slow news day. That's exactly right. Joe is up in Massachusetts. Joe, how can we help? Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my call. How are you doing today? We're doing well. What's going on? So my wife and I have about$240 ,000 worth of debt, and we are struggling paying it off while balancing raising our young family in our current home where the mortgage is taking up about 50 % of our income now that my wife is going to be staying home at home with the kids.

45:28George Kamel:Oof. How soon is that happening? Or has it already happened where she's coming home and now the paycheck's going away? It's going to be in June. Okay, so we have a little bit of runway. That's why I interrupted you there. Go ahead with your question. Okay. The question is, should we sell our dream home where we want to raise our family? Or should we sell it to try to get out of debt faster? That's the main question. What kind of debt is the$240 ,000? We have 150 of student loans, 40 of personal loans, and another 40 of two cars that we drive. If we take both cars, what are the combined car payments?

46:16Combined car payments are probably about$1 ,000 a month. We go 40 on them. They're probably worth about 45.

46:23George Kamel:But do you see what I'm saying? Like, I'd attack that. That's my first option. That's one solvable problem. That's$1 ,000 a month,$12 ,000 a year. So the mortgage is still too much, and it's about to be way too much now that you're going to lose your wife's income. What is she making? She makes about$20 ,000 part-time right now. Okay. So we're not losing the lion's share of the household income, but things are only going to get tighter at this point. Yes. What are you doing for work, and what do you make? I'm a PA, a physician assistant. I make about$150 ,000 at base salary, and I can make up to another$100 or so if I really grind my butt off.

47:04Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

47:06George Kamel:I'm thinking we really grind our butt off. I was thinking about the butt grinding as well. I really was. I thought this is what you should do. You should do that. If you did that, I mean, it'd be for a season. Like, I don't want you to be doing this forever, and hopefully your income goes up over time as a PA. Would that change the numbers on the mortgage? because I don't want to run to selling the house as like, yep, just go do that tomorrow. But if there's no end in sight, no light at the end of this tunnel, then it might be time. Okay. Would you start with the cars, George, if you could? The cars are the easiest thing.

47:39George Kamel:That's something you can control today. You can't sell your degree. You can't sell the personal loan, but you can sell these cars and make out with five grand and save some up over the next couple of paychecks and get yourself some used cars. And now add$1 ,000 to the debt snowball to get rid of the rest of this stuff. Because if$150 ,000, trying to pay off$240 ,000 with a crushing mortgage, it's going to take you a decade. But if we can make$250 ,000 and pay off$200 ,000, this is a solvable problem. George, run those numbers for him. Let's assume that you're getting after it and you're going to make that additional$100 ,000.

48:13George Kamel:Would that get him in alignment on our 25 %? That would probably be a take-home of about$14 ,000 or so grand a month, maybe close to that. And so then you can throw$7 ,000 or$8 ,000. It's$4 ,000 a month. Okay. So the goal here with that mortgage, if you can't begin to make$15 ,000 or$16 ,000 a month take-home, that$4 ,000 a month mortgage will eventually sink you guys or at least really delay any progress financially. So that would be my thing for you guys. Let's see what the next 12 months holds. And if we can get the household income up to about 15, 16 take home a month, while paying stuff down, right?

48:54George Kamel:We want to create a little more margin, a lot more margin, actually. Do you think that's feasible? I feel like all you're saying is like, I'm going to be working a lot. Yeah. Like future. I'm already doing that for the past two years or so, but I'm ready to keep on going. Because if your wife's going to stay home, I mean, that's, that's a big decision. it's one that's born out of family values it's emotional it's more than just financial it's more than math but you're saying this is what she's called to do she's going to do it now what must be true for us to because you said dream home and right now this home is turning quickly into a nightmare when you guys can't breathe trying to make all the bills is it worth two to three years of really hustling to make that extra income so that you can stay in this house for you not your wife.

49:42George Kamel:I want you to answer that question on your behalf, not her behalf. Yeah, I think it's definitely worth it for my family's stability and happiness. We really enjoy where we're at. Great. You know what's going to be great coming out of this beyond being debt-free is you're going to go, I'm never doing this again because you're going to work so stinking hard. You're going to teach yourself a very valuable lesson, yes? Yes. And do you both know that your lifestyle is about to change drastically to where you're not spending nearly as much as you have been in the past. I think the alarm bell just kind of went off.

50:19So we need to sit down and have a good talk about that.

50:21George Kamel:And you know, part of that talk is just laying out the numbers because right now it's going to feel all emotions. And so just lay out an every dollar budget, make it very logical, unemotional, say, hey, I just want to make a budget with you to show you what our finances currently look like, what they will look like. And maybe you guys find, hey, we can actually get our expenses down to$6 ,500 a month. And if I can make$1 ,200 or$1 ,300 take home, well, now that's another$6 ,000 we can throw with the debt. Because let me give you some hope. If you can throw$6 ,600 a month for this debt, you're done in two and a half years if you sold these cars.

50:54George Kamel:Okay. And a half year later, six months after that, you've got the fully funded emergency fund. Now we're completely debt-free. We've got the mortgage under control if we can get our income come up sustainably and we have no debt. And so now we have all this extra margin we can use to start making some real progress and not feel like, well, if you didn't stay home, we wouldn't be in the, it's just going to become arguing and stress for the next several years. But if you guys both agree, this is what the next three years looks like. Are you in? It changes the game. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's feasible.

51:26George Kamel:And is she going to be on board with this? um i think uh she'll be willing to do whatever it takes to uh stay where we are right now yeah and do whatever it takes for her to be able to come home yes yeah and that's you guys have a great why right now that baby is one of the best whys to get you through this season and the good news is the baby won't remember what the heck happened no it's just gonna go cool i have a pretty sweet life i got mom i got dad they're not stressed out they're present and versus what normally happens with PAs and docs and anyone in the medical field, they just, lifestyle creep takes over.

52:03George Kamel:They're stressed out, but man, it looks good on the outside. You got two luxury cars in the driveway, big, beautiful luxury home. That's a great point. Real quick, a little bit more hope. Joe, how old are you? I am 30. See, you're young. So you've got a lot of runway in front of you from an income standpoint, don't you? Yes. So, so, Hey, you're 30. The next two or three years, really tough as far as a lot of work, but man, as it sets you up for the future. Yeah. Yeah. All right. That's the mindset. And listen, I'm not trying to give you a pep talk, but we are trying to inject you with a little bit of hope so that you go, Oh, okay.

52:40George Kamel:Tough medicine today, but a longterm, man, I'm going to be sitting pretty. Make that every dollar budget, create that vision and go, man, by the time I'm 33, we're going to be in a different place financially. We are changing our family tree and it's going to be a good life from 33 on. We got this. We're rooting for you, man.

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55:04George Kamel:All right, to Michigan is where we're going to go, and Renee is there. Renee, how can we help? Hi, thanks for taking my call. How are you? We are having a blast. What's going on with you? Good. So I'm just wondering how I can convince my husband that we're financially stable enough to move out of our parents' house, even though we're still on babysit too and don't have enough saved for a house down payment. How long have we been staying with his parents? No, no, your parents. How long have you guys been living with them? My parents, yes. It's been four years. Since you've been married, you've been living with your parents?

55:40No, we've been married since 2017.

55:44George Kamel:So what happened that caused you guys to go, hey, we can't rent anymore. We've got to move in with mom and dad. So what happened was we lived in northern Michigan, and our rent was super cheap. Everything was great. And then my parents, they were the people who watched my kids, and they moved downstate, and there was no way that we could financially make it living up there without their help with the children. Because you couldn't afford child care, so you went, well, we'll just move in with them, and they can just watch them all day while you two go off to work? Right. Okay. What do you guys make?

56:19So our financial situation has changed now since then. So we're bringing home about$9 ,000 a month.

56:29George Kamel:For crying out loud. I mean, what is really going on here? What is his deal? What's really going on is, I don't know. he's he's scared um and i totally understand why because when we lived at north we were living paycheck to paycheck and we were you know getting help from my parents and now that we've lived down here we're making at least triple what we were making up north yeah and by the way we're not going to play armchair quarterback but you guys could have made it work before and so this pattern is repeating itself it does us no good to go back and run the numbers from when you lived up there but I can tell you there was a way.

57:06George Kamel:But you're right. He's not only scared. I think this guy has gotten real comfortable. And what strikes me is it sounds to me like you're on your last nerve, and they're your parents. I am on my last nerve, and I don't want to, you know, because we do help with the expenses of living in the house. It's not like we live here rent-free. I give my parents money every month. We help with everything. And that's worked into our budget, you know, what we contribute to my parents. And really living on our own, we'll only be probably$800 more a month. Have you sat down with him and showed him an actual budget to say, hey, here's what rent would be.

57:49George Kamel:I've got three different apartment complexes or whatever you're thinking. Here's place A, place B, place C. And with all of those numbers together, we're only talking about an increase of$800 a month for us to live on our own. Have you laid that out for him? The thing is, is he doesn't, I'm the one that manages all our finances. I manage all the credit card payments, all the car payments, the contribution, any trips that we take. Like, I manage it all, and he doesn't know what's going on. He doesn't know what to do in. So show him. So wait a second. Do you remember the question I just asked you?

58:23George Kamel:Have I sat down with him? What's the answer to my question? The answer is, I've tried and he's not interested. What do you mean he's not interested? He's the one that says we can't make it financially. You go, let me show you how we can. And he goes, no, thanks. He literally goes, no, I don't want to look at it. He says, no, I don't want to look at it. You handle the finances. Right. Okay, listen. All right. So instead of when a guy is this stubborn, he has his head up as you know what. All right. That's all this boils down to. So if he says to you, I don't want to look at it, you handle it, then guess what?

58:58George Kamel:Go put a deposit down on an apartment today. Say, got us a lease. Hey, babe. It's$1 ,500 a month to rent. I got great news. Got us an apartment. It's only, and by the way, he doesn't know the numbers. So go, so just say, and by the way, this is not me telling you to be dishonest with him or cover anything up. I'm not suggesting that at all. But this is a guy who you've attempted to show him and he's, he has literally checked out of the situation. He's not an adult when it comes to the money. And so I don't know why you got to convince a guy, nor I don't know how you convince a guy who refuses to have a conversation about it.

59:36George Kamel:I don't have a tip for that. Well, he doesn't care about the money. No, he's just so stuck on we're still in debt and I want to go straight from my parents' house into a house. Are we what? Are you still big time in debt? I mean, we have like$46 ,000 in debt. Can I hear the numbers? When you guys moved in, what did you start with? What was your total debt balance when you guys moved in?

1:00:06Probably$10 ,000.

1:00:07George Kamel:So you were$10 ,000 in debt when you moved in. Now you're$43 ,000 in debt years later? Mm-hmm. So this whole plan that we're going to move in with my parents to pay off debt has backfired spectacularly. Oh, yes. Has he been a part of acquiring the additional$36 ,000 in debt? Yes. Oh, he was on board for that. What did he go into debt for?

1:00:31So he's an avid hobbyist when it comes to his guns and his bows.

1:00:40George Kamel:And, you know, we needed to get a new truck. So he's going to lose his toys if you guys go rent somewhere. He's going to lose the lifestyle he's created for himself. That's it. He's afraid of that. That's what's going on. He's a child. but honestly you've been an accomplice to these crimes absolutely so you've allowed it to happen this is not like well it's all on him you both have been very lackadaisical in this process making zero progress and here's the thing it has stunted your y 'all's growth financially and relationally and so moving out is not to punish him it's to go i married you to leave and cleave yeah not to move back in with my parents while we continually go into debt while you're telling me this is better for us financially.

1:01:27George Kamel:So you need to have a serious conversation sharing your feelings because sharing the numbers ain't working. And use I statements. You do this and just say, here's how I'm feeling based on everything that's been happening. What was that reaction? When George said what you need to do, by the way, George is right. You kind of did the, it was a little exhale giggle. It was an exhale giggle combo. What was making you, what's going on there? um because uh there it is now we went from we have that conversation that gets turned around on me and it's and it's you know rather than us collectively taking the blame for this because it's not just me that's right you know and it's not just him it's both of us yeah he deflects um it it gets deflected back on me and it's my problem and it's my job to fix it and wish we You could get him on the phone right now.

1:02:22George Kamel:Yeah, you guys are going to need some counseling, some marriage counseling. I actually think that's the case. And I think, how would you rate your marriage right now on a scale of 1 to 10? 1 being suck, 10 being amazing.

1:02:40Probably like a 5.5.

1:02:42George Kamel:What would he rate it?

1:02:47Depends on the day. Probably a little bit higher. maybe like a seven.

1:02:51George Kamel:Yeah. So we're both in denial. Okay. That's good. We're on the same page on one thing at least. Yeah. I, I think if he, do you think he cares about your marriage? No, absolutely. Yes. Okay. No, absolutely. What? Yeah. That threw me. Cause boy, you said, he cares. Okay. And what way does he care? Yeah. Like, like as far as actions go. as far as action i mean um we have a very like open and honest relationship in terms of like you know obviously we love each other and we love our kids and well we're on the same page in terms of we're willing to do whatever it makes whatever it takes to make it work except rent and look at a budget and stop buying toys and going to you see how absurd other than that crushing it so So the reason that we're poking around on this issue is because is he going to respond when you say, hey, this is not good.

1:03:43George Kamel:We we we've got to go see a therapist and we've got to get on the same page with this. We can't be we can't be on the same page about everything else and not on the same page about money. I'm dying here. I don't want to live with my parents. And every time I bring it up to you. And it's not just like I don't want to live with it. It's more like my parents deserve to not have us be here. You deserve not to be with your parents. Don't put it on your parents. You're still clouded a little bit. I'd say, hey, I got a place to rent. You're welcome to join me when you're ready to be an adult. How old are you two?

1:04:1733.

1:04:18George Kamel:If you watched a movie about a 33-year-old couple who'd been living with the wife's parents for four years, it'd be a comedy. Jesus saved the world by the time he was 33. You guys can go rent an apartment. You'll be okay. Wow, you can't drop the deity card on her. Who can live up to that? It's called the Jesus Jew, Ken. It works every time. Wow, that heated up quickly. Whew. Gonna have to get George and Alka-Seltzer.

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1:05:53All right.

1:05:54George Kamel:Our question of the day is sponsored by Y-Refi. Private student loans in default can feel like a dead end, but Y-Refi works with borrows when other lenders won't, creating fixed rate plans tailored to your ability to pay. Go to Y-Refi.com slash Ramsey today. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey. It may not be available in all states. Today's question comes from Liam in Washington. He says, I'm 39 years old and I own 26 cars that I rent out on Turo. About 60 % of them are paid off, but I have about$200 ,000 worth of business car debt. Oof. I understand your view of debt, but my cars are generating income for me.

1:06:34George Kamel:A car that I have a loan on costs me$300 to$400 a month, but I'm generating$900 to$1 ,000 per month on that car. Is it still a good idea to pay off all my car loans and have my business operating debt-free? I am balancing between paying off my cars, saving for my company reserves, and paying myself each month. Is this the right way to manage my business? I feel like we have a young Dave Ramsey, except it's cars. Instead of real estate. This is exactly what this is. But here's the problem. The houses at least keep their value and appreciate. These cars are going down in value. It scares me to death.

1:07:08George Kamel:So my fear is, he goes, I have$200 ,000 worth of business car debt. Guess what? The cars might only be worth$100 ,000 at this point. Completely. As they get destroyed by the people renting them out. That's right. That is correct. Oh, yikes. Not a good idea. You're saying, is it the right way to manage my business? So from an entree leadership standpoint, the way that Dave Ramsey teaches business, you're trying to pay down debt. You're saving for company reserves. You're trying to pay yourself each month. Yes, all of those things must happen. You've got to have the money to do the maintenance and repairs and oil changes and new tires.

1:07:42George Kamel:You've got to be paying down the cars, and you have to eat. So what I would be doing is paying myself as little as I can to survive, throwing as much to the debt as I can while keeping up a sinking fund for the repairs. Personally, what I would do in your shoes, I would liquidate all the cars that I'm not underwater on to do this slower. And if that reduces some income temporarily, that's fine, because you're going to get your butt handed to you when you're stuck with a bunch of cars that you're underwater on, and the income dries up, and all of a sudden you're going, dude, I have 26 cars, and they're getting repoed left and right.

1:08:14George Kamel:I'd be unloading those cars. Man, some stuff, George, looks so good on paper. Well, I've seen the TikToks where they go, okay, so if you don't know, Turo is actually a great app where you can rent someone's car. Yeah, I've used it, by the way. So instead of going to a rental car company, Ken Coleman has a great car. Say I want to get a Jeep for the day. You can go on the app and rent a Jeep, and you can do it with a debit card, which I love. No hassle. I like the Turo. But people who are using it as a business opportunity, I've heard the horror stories, and I'm scared Liam is next up. Yeah. So if you're going to do this, I would be very cautious and only do it with cash so that you're never underwater and not going into debt.

1:08:51George Kamel:Because any business that is run with debt is at risk. Yeah. And if you do it with cash, it just reduces your risk and increases your peace and hopefully allows you to survive and grow. So that's our take. I can't go back in time, but I would offload as many cars as I can and do this the right way. So good, George. I can't add anything to that. We nailed it. I won't. Trinity is up in Columbus, Ohio. Trinity, how can we help? hi it's great to speak to you guys good to speak with you what's going on so i am 24 going on 25 years old and i have no debt i've paid it all off for college um way to go it's and working thank you i'm really proud of it you should be and i've come across a huge income increase this year.

1:09:38George Kamel:Nice. From what to what? And I'm trying to navigate from 36K to 75K. Trinity, let's go. Don't just roll by that. We got to celebrate that. Way to go, girl. That's fantastic. Thank you. Tell us, just so we have context, what did you go from what to what? Not an income, but what was the position? What world are you in? Yeah, so I'm in the world of like marketing and digital content creation. So I started at a news station straight out of college. They don't pay anything. They basically pay pebbles and sand. Exactly. But I knew that if I did my time there, I would have so many opportunities going forward.

1:10:18George Kamel:Good for you. So I went from doing almost two years there to a corporate social media strategist position where my income increased to 55K. And then I just launched a social media freelance business to add an extra$1 ,000 a month. Come on, Trinity. Just with one client right now. Come on. And then I got approached, kind of poached, essentially, from that position recently to be the social media person for a CEO who is a multimillionaire here in Columbus and his sales company. Nice. Way to go. Okay. Okay, so I guess you're calling to ask us how to invest all this new money. Am I right, or are we at something else?

1:11:02Well, actually, it's more about because I have all of this, Ray, I do have a financial advisor who's helping me with the investment portfolio, but I want to be smart, and I don't want to get myself into debt that's not necessary, but I want to travel the world so bad. I wanted to ever since I was little, had my passport, never been out of the country. I do have a plan to save up money for travel, But is a travel credit card worth it? Or am I just going to put myself into a bad situation?

1:11:31George Kamel:Let me just repeat what you said to yourself. I don't want to go into any unnecessary debt. And so all of a sudden you're calling us going, I really want to travel the world. So it might be necessary for me to get a credit card so I can get them travel miles. Is that what I'm guessing this is about? Yeah, because that's what everybody tells you, right? I know. Like my JP Morgan advisor and everybody. Have you met everybody? They're broke. What if everybody told you it was great to sniff glue? Would you have done that? No. All right. Let me tell you what I've heard and what you probably are about to say.

1:12:09George Kamel:I pay my balance off every month. I've never paid a dime in interest, and I fly for free. Have you heard those things? Yeah. And that's your plan? And that's your game plan. It's like, well, I'm not going to go into debt. I'm not going to carry a balance. I'll just pay off the statement every month and I'll accumulate all these travel miles. I'll get 100 ,000 miles that gets me to Ankeny, Iowa. I don't know where these miles actually get you. Ankeny, Iowa? That's where people want to go these days. I love that hot spot. I'm so in. I love that reference. I didn't even know that existed. I like to go with Sheboygan, but you know, that was.

1:12:43George Kamel:I think the people of Ankeny deserve some shout out. I think they don't get enough love. So, George, tell Trinity why this is a bad idea. because it makes a lot of sense on paper. Yeah. So tell us about this travel card. What is so alluring about it? It's this idea that you could get basically those discounts because I'm always one to thrift instead of go to the, you know. You are talking to Captain Thrifty. Yeah, tell us what card it is. Tell us exactly what card it is. It would be like the Sapphire card with Chase. Chase Sapphire Reserve costs$800 a year. Wow. And you get like an Uber credit and like fine dining credit.

1:13:26George Kamel:So things that are like entertainment and luxury versus necessity. I've seen all the... You know. I've seen that they've sent... The people have sent me these videos. So it's going to cost you$800 a year. So you at least, just to break even on the card, with all the fees that they're charging, you have to at least make$800 in rewards. Oh. Right? Fine print. And now you've got to spend enough to get the miles, which are not actual travel miles. It's not like you're going 100 miles and you need 100 miles. It's this random number they make up, which they can devalue at any time. Be gentle, George.

1:13:59George Kamel:Right? I'm making sure I understand it. You tell me if it's not correct. So is it like a dollar gets you a mile, or what's the tradeoff? About that, essentially. Okay. So let's say 50 grand. And so my financial advisor, yeah. 50 grand gets you 50 ,000 miles? thereabouts yeah i think it might be one or one and a half times but yeah right on the money okay so that essentially gets you would that be like a round trip flight maybe two or hotel yeah or hotel eventually okay so if you actually looked at the um the value of that flight if you had just booked it yourself you went on google flights and just found an affordable flight on a decent airline.

1:14:40George Kamel:Could you find one that's 700 bucks total round trip? Might be kind of hard if I'm going out of the country. Well, if you're going out of the country, you need like a million miles. So here's what I'm trying to get at is it is not worth playing this game when you are already so successful. Only broke people have to play this game to try to make videos about how they travel for free. George, how do you travel the world without a miles credit card? I just use a debit card and there's rewards programs. Oh yeah, but how do you accumulate the money to travel? How work, I guess. I just show up at work and they pay me.

1:15:12George Kamel:And so I encourage you to try that. Just do a budget, have a travel fund, make it a thousand bucks a month if you want, and then book your travel at the best price you can find instead of being stuck with what the credit card companies allow you to book. And you're Captain Thrifty. I am Captain Thrifty. Thank you for that. I'll take that honor.

1:16:00George Kamel:All right. When you are tackling debt or trying to build wealth, one of the things we can tend to do is forget about one important step to reaching those goals, And that's insurance, coverage, protection, right? And sometimes you have too little, sometimes too much. And either one of those can impact your goals, your progress. And skimping on insurance might seem like you're saving a buck or two, but when life actually hits you, you don't want to fall back into debt or at least be tempted to do so. So the right insurance, think of it as a shield around your family and your bank account. So how do you know if you have the right coverage?

1:16:37George Kamel:We've got the answer. It's called the Coverage Checkup. It's a free online resource. It creates a personalized insurance action plan that's unique to you and your situation. Go to RamseySolutions.com slash checkup, RamseySolutions.com slash checkup, and you can take the checkup, or you can click the link in the description of our show notes if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. Speaking of protecting yourself, Ken, this is big news I want to hit. Uh-oh, we got some breaking news? Well, it was a big data breach, and I want to give people some practical steps here. One of the nation's top three credit bureaus, TransUnion, exposed more than 4.4 million Americans' personal info when a third-party vendor got hacked.

1:17:17George Kamel:So there's names, addresses, social security numbers. So I'm not here to alarm you, but I want to give you some practical steps, and there are things that I have done. So first, freeze your credit with all three bureaus so that no one can open fake accounts in your name or go into debt using your name. Second, watch your bank accounts like a hawk. If you see something that looks off, call your bank immediately. And lastly, get identity theft protection. It's not technically an insurance product, but it's something that gets paired right along with that to protect your wealth because this won't be the last breach.

1:17:46George Kamel:So head to RamseySolutions.com slash ID theft if you want to learn more and the folks that we trust or click the link in the description if you're on YouTube or podcast. Wow. It feels like we get more and more of those alerts. It never stops. Yeah. Evil never takes a day off. Yeah. That's what I always say. I'm Batman. Man, got to love those cybersecurity folks. Everyday heroes. All right, let's go to Canada. And Andy is waiting for us. Andy, how can we help today? Hi, guys. So my wife and I, about two years ago, started a chocolate shop. And the build cost way more than we expected. So the business took on about$150 ,000 of debt.

1:18:27and sort of as a part of that, we have profit this past year of about$99 ,000 and I'm trying to figure out how best to spend the money in terms of like growing the business and paying off our debt. Debt service of that$99 ,000 is about$48 ,000. It's quite a bit. And then growing the business, which what we want to do is buy some chocolatiering equipment because right now we have nothing and it's all done by hand. And that's backbreaking. It's literally killing us, and I don't think we can keep it up for more than one year.

1:19:06George Kamel:You and your wife are making all the chocolate by hand? That's correct. It's all by hand. And did I hear you say— We have one other employee with us. Wow. And the profit, was it$99 ,000 in profit? Did I write that down right? Yeah, that's correct. Is that gross or net? I suppose that's gross. So what are you guys paying yourselves? Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get at here. So we're getting about$60 ,000. And that includes your employee, the one other person? No, they're getting about$40 ,000. Wow. So we're actually, if it's gross,$99 ,000, and you're paying$100 ,000, you're not profitable. Oh, sorry.

1:19:55I guess it's not.

1:19:56George Kamel:Okay. So you're saying after you pay$60 ,000 to your house, so this is after all expenses, including the debt service, plus paying you, your wife, the one other person, then we have$99 ,000 left over. That's right. Is that sitting in like a savings account right now? So right now we've spent most of that because we had a pretty rough year. Chocolate prices have increased like crazy. They've gone up about 300%. We're doing our best not to pass that on to customers. Where's that coming from? What's driving the cost of chocolate up 300 %? I'm curious. Oh, it's a few things, really. So there's been crop failures in different parts of the world.

1:20:40There's been disease blights and stuff like that. Chocolate, ever more popular. So there's supply and demand problems. And then, you know, with failing crops, people are looking at using disease-resistant strains.

1:20:55George Kamel:Gotcha. And, yeah, like those sort of impact the quality of the chocolate we get, and we use the best in the world. Okay, so$99 ,000. Do we have that sitting in an account? Because George asked you that. You said you spent it all. Then you said you spent it, but you started off the call saying, how do I spend that money? I want to be wise with it. Well, this is sort of like the next year that's coming, sort of projected. We've spent most of that. We have about$40 ,000 in the bank right now, and that's just sitting as cash. Some of it is going to be coming back to us because our AC went out, and so we were closed for about a month.

1:21:34So our insurance is covering some of that. So we're going to get around$30 ,000,$40 ,000 from that.

1:21:40George Kamel:All right, let's talk about the equipment because there's a temptation to scale. obviously and that's i'm glad you guys are doing well and you're talking about the chocolate am i saying this right chocolatiering equipment yeah yeah so i'm gonna go home and tell my wife today that i talked to a chocolatier it makes me sound i think pretty pretty fancy so what equipment do i think so uh what what's the base amount like what's the smallest amount of equipment that you would need, and it would help you generate more profit? Have you run the numbers on, we could spend this, and we could spend... You see what I'm saying?

1:22:23George Kamel:There's a temptation to go all in. It's a little tricky. We can buy a couple of smaller items that would just kind of help us out with some of the sages to make it a little less labor-intensive. Great. But the main steps to actually, you know, temper chocolate and have it like on hand, each of those machines is between like 20 and 60K. And we temper around, you know, 12 different types of chocolate. Okay, I get it. I get it. That would be. I get it. And I don't know anything about the business, so please forgive my ignorance. But I'm trying to help you think through the impulse here. Because the number one challenge of entrepreneurs is the impulse to grow.

1:23:05George Kamel:and you can really make a compelling case like you just did to George and I. Usually they say, we could triple our profits if we got a$60 ,000 machine. But let's go to that first step before you went to, but we want to temper. All right? And I'm so out of my league here. Okay, so what would that amount be for that small amount of equipment that would help with manpower and less hours, which is good for you? Probably around$70 ,000. I thought that was a small amount, so it's not a small amount. You needed 12 of these machines that cost$20 ,000 to$60 ,000. That's the ideal scenario. Yeah, the ideal scenario is 12 machines that cost probably the$60 ,000 and then a few other superfluous machines that cost like$20 ,000 each.

1:23:51George Kamel:What can you spend in the$10 ,000 to$15 ,000 range? I'm making this up, but I'm also trying to help you think. What can you spend in the$10 ,000 to$15 ,000 range,$20 ,000 max? Max. I'm thinking$10 ,000 to$15 ,000 that would make your life easier. there's there's one machine that we could get that's about in that price range it doesn't temper i don't care about that that pipes the the ganaches and stuff into the chocolate and that saves a few hours of labor okay so is that we could cash flow that we could pay cash for that correct yeah that's right and it would save time and that would make life better and you're it's It's not like you guys are doing well now.

1:24:31George Kamel:It's not like your audience is, excuse me, your customers are yelling for more tempering and we'd like more machines. You're winning right now, yes or no? Yeah, I'd say we're doing really well. The business has been a huge success since we opened about 11 months ago. So it's doing really well. So Andy, I guess what I'm preaching here is patience. Yeah, I feel you. You called us, and we're going to tell you not to go into debt. We're going to tell you. I'm going to give it to George really quick. George, what does he do with that money that's coming in extra, those retainer? You're going to have to figure out how to live on less and use all the profits you can, which you need to increase, by also increasing your costs.

1:25:12George Kamel:That's part of it. You need to explain to customers, hey, chocolate went up. Cocoa beans are up 300%. We are trying our best to keep our prices down, but we had to increase by this much in order to stay in business. I'm the customer. I appreciate the honesty, I understand, and I'm willing to pay for your best chocolate in the world. Pay the debt off. But let's attack that debt, man, before we go scale this thing up with cash. You guys are going to win big, but be patient. Send us some chocolate if you could. Please. That'd be nice. Chocolate turtle.

1:25:45We've all done dumb things with money. I've done them with zeros on the end. One of the biggest mistakes I see people make with money is not having a plan for it. You got to have a plan. You got to be intentional and you need to get a budget. You have to tell your money where to go so you're not wondering where it went. Our budgeting app, EveryDollar, helps you do just that. It's the easiest and fastest way to make a monthly plan for every dollar you've got coming in and going out. Now's the best time to get started before the ridiculous holiday spending season gets here and sucks you in because you didn't have a plan.

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1:26:38George Kamel:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. I'm Ken Coleman, George Camel, alongside. Excited to be here for you all. Carolyn is going to be up next in Atlanta, Georgia. Carolyn, how can we help today? Yeah. Hey, guys. How are you? We're having too much fun, I think, today. How are you? There you go. I'm doing well. So my question is a little back story. So I went through a divorce about three and a half years ago. I am 56 years old, and I basically had to start over. So nothing saves retirement. There's a reason. So at any rate, I'm starting over. And I do have about$65 ,000 in investments, about$25 ,000 in a traditional IRA, and I do have$3 ,000 in a savings in the bank.

1:27:35So my question, and then I am contributing to my 401k at work, 6%. So I've started doing that. But my question is, the only debt I have is a car payment and my mortgage. I have absolutely no other debt. So I owe about$20 ,000, a little over$20 ,000 on my car.

1:28:00George Kamel:Okay. And unfortunately, my father had passed away a couple years ago, and I was left with a, well, his IRA, which is now a beneficiary. IRA. So I had eight years to withdraw that money. So I'm wondering, should I withdraw the money, start slowly withdrawing the money and put it in a Roth IRA to help me in retirement and keep, you know, picking away at paying off my car? Or should I take a chunk out of that and pay my car off and be done with it? What is your income? My income, I bring in about$4 ,500 a month. Net? Yes, that's what's getting into my bank account. Coming home. Okay, gotcha. And that's after your 6 % investing and taxes and healthcare and all that?

1:28:56George Kamel:Yes, sir. Okay. And what's in that beneficiary IRA? How much is left in there? There's about$98 ,000. Oh, sweet deal. That is nice. That's good news. So pay it off today. Yep. That still leaves you with like$80 ,000 in there. Right. And then you can use that. You're freeing up your car payment as well. What's the car payment? The car payment is right at like$490. Oh, my gosh. Did you hear what George just said? I think that flew right by you a little too quickly. Pay off the car today. Okay. Because that's robbing your ability to invest. I'm getting more interest. I was like, I'm getting more interest.

1:29:36So I just wasn't sure. Maybe. I think I want to be done with the debt.

1:29:38George Kamel:Well, here's the thing. We don't know what the market's going to do tomorrow, but we do know that paying off your car has a forced interest rate. And a big raise. Yes. And I would also withdraw enough to cover your savings account because right now you're one HVAC dying away from going into debt again. I love that. What would three to six months – would you, George, in her case, knowing her numbers, you want to see three, four, five, six or leave it up to her? Well, you're single now, and so that puts you more at risk than having two incomes. So I would lean towards six, especially at your age.

1:30:11George Kamel:Yeah. I like that, too. I feel more comfortable with six. That was kind of my goal, to try and get up to six. So what is six months of your expenses? Well, I mean, four times six, 24. I mean, I think I would be comfortable with$25 ,000 just to... So out of the 98, let's pull out 20. Okay, go ahead. Just pull out 20 to pay off the car. Pull out another 25 to get your emergency phone. we're at least 22 because you already have 3 ,000 in savings. And that will still leave you with 56K that you need to withdraw over the next eight years. And so I would withdraw that equal amount so that it kind of runs out over time and move that over to that Roth IRA.

1:30:53Okay.

1:30:54George Kamel:Because now think about it. You were investing 6 % and you had a car payment. Now with a fully funded emergency fund and no debt, we can jack up our investing to 15 % of your income. Correct. And now we can make up for some lost time. And once the house is paid off, you can invest even more. So what's left on the mortgage? About$122 ,000. Oh, wow. Amazing. This is actually, for someone who had to start all over, Carolyn, I just want you to know, we think you're sitting really pretty. Because don't make me get George to get his investment calculator out. I'll do it. Because you're 56 years young is the way I see it.

1:31:29George Kamel:Well, thank you. Yeah. So imagine you put, let's say,$20 ,000 toward the house a year. Well, by the time you're 62, this house has paid off completely while you've been investing 15 % on top of what you have now. Yeah, and I did just buy the house two years ago. Okay, great. Well, you didn't buy too much house, it sounds like. Everything was very reasonable after you went through a lot of life. I was. I mean, I just took what we made on the house when we sold it, and I put a lot chunk down. Nice. What's your house worth on the market right now? $500. Come on. Way to go. Fantastic. So now you're going to have a half a million dollar house.

1:32:10George Kamel:It's going to be worth more than that by the time you're 62. You're going to be in good shape. All right, George, what about her catching up on her investing? That will happen over time. As you get rid of all this debt and pay off the mortgage, you'll go from that 15 % to 25%, 30%. And hopefully your income goes up over time as well. And so I'm not worried about you catching up on all this, especially once you have a paid for house. Your investments will double about every seven years based on what the market's been doing. So if you have$100 ,000 invested now, which you're pretty close to that based on what you've laid out, if not more, then you'd have$200 if you did nothing, if you invested$0 more.

1:32:46George Kamel:And then seven years from there, you'd have$400. And so you'll likely get close to that million-dollar mark by the time you're 67. Okay. Or 70. And I do have – I only have one kid on the payroll. I have one in college. But she graduates this year. Come on, mama. That's a big deal. That's kind of nice. That's another pay raise. Yes, I'm hoping. I'm hoping. What do you mean, hope? You get to determine that. Hey, fly, fly. Well, that's true. That's the hard thing. But, yeah, so I've got, yeah, two that are on their own, and I have one. The last one's a senior, so if I can get her off the payroll.

1:33:21What is your gross income per year?

1:33:23George Kamel:What's your salary? Well, I, okay, one thing I didn't. So I just got a raise. I only make$53 ,000 a year, but I also have a, I have a, what is it called? A side business? Yeah, I think of what it's called. No, a. Give us a clue. Give us a clue. This is kind of fun. I need to write it down. Where my dad had put in investments for charity, a charity trust, a charitable trust. And since he passed, his wife, so I, my sisters, we kind of split his portion of it. So that's approximately, that's approximately$700 a month. That adds to your income. Correct. So that's where that$4 ,500, that's part of that income until it's gone.

1:34:15I mean, one day it will be gone. I don't know, you know.

1:34:18George Kamel:Right. So. I was just trying to crunch some numbers for you to give you some hope that you will catch up. Because you're, you said you are 56. yes okay and what what age would you like to be able to retire not soon enough oh you're ready well let's say that's not a reality if you're catching up you're going to you know let's say 68 69 that'll still give you about 660 grand if you're just investing 700 bucks a month consistently plus remember you're going to be investing even more and that doesn't include the paid for house which is going to be worth over half a million so you will be a baby steps millionaire retiring with dignity if I have anything to do with it.

1:34:55George Kamel:And you haven't sworn love off, have you, the rest of your life? No. Go find you a debt-free man, and this picture gets even better. It does. It will. One day, I hope. It will. We believe. We believe.

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1:36:14George Kamel:Hey folks, buying or selling a house is a massive financial transaction. And you don't want to just do that willy-nilly without any kind of expertise in your corner. The Ramsey Trusted Program is the only way to find a top agent you can trust who will help you make your home a blessing, not a burden. You can find a local Ramsey Trusted Real Estate Pro for free at RamseySolutions.com slash agent. That's RamseySolutions.com slash agent. Caitlin is up in North Carolina. Caitlin, how can we help? Hi. I am 28. I have almost no debt. I have no credit card debt. I have six more payments left on my car.

1:36:55George Kamel:Okay. So that's about to be paid off. I bought land about two years ago. I owe$60 ,000 on that, and that is the only debt that I'm in. How much dirt? It is 19 acres. 19 acres. Okay. You plan to build on that, live on that? What's the story? Yes. Yes. I plan to pay it down. I'm not in a rush right now, so I'm throwing all the money at it, pay it off, and then get a loan and put a home on it. Okay. What is your income? I'm sorry, you can say that one more time? What is your income? I make about$80 ,000 a year. Okay. All right. Okay. So over time, I have built up an emergency savings, and I have about$45 ,000 in cash.

1:37:50And I feel like I'm doing well financially at this point, but I don't really know how to spend that cash.

1:37:59George Kamel:Well, when you say cash, is this in the bank, or are we saying cash like laying around somewhere? No, like it's in a gun safe. Okay. I started with an emergency fund, and then I just kept adding to it. Why is it not in a savings account? No, because I've always been told I needed to have cash on hand and then some in the bank. That's how I grew up. But now I've got... They just didn't tell you how much, so you just went overboard. Yeah. Okay. $45 ,000 in a gun safe. I mean, there's cash on hand, and that's like, I don't even know how you describe that. Are there also guns in there? I'm going to say yes.

1:38:43George Kamel:Okay. I'm just, is this like a paranoia? Hey, if it all goes down, I'm going to be ready with a suitcase of cash in my gut. Like that's, I'm trying to figure out where this is coming from. Yeah. If it's from a place of legitimate fear, you know, illegitimate fear, because I would be taking most of that and parking it in a high yield savings account. Yes. Because there is much more risk that your money is eaten away by inflation than there is of a bank collapse. Do you have a rule of thumb, George, on actual cash in your home? You know, someone asked me this yesterday, and I said, hey, I think$1 ,000 cash is plenty.

1:39:14George Kamel:That's what I was thinking. Now, if you have a good reason to have more than that,$2 ,000,$3 ,000, but$45 ,000, I think we can all agree, is a wild amount to have in cash at your house. We should at least be burying that in the backyard, maybe. We've taken that call. $120 ,000 buried in tin cans in the backyard. We actually took that call. A gentleman in Texas. I'll never forget it. Yeah. I'm joking, by the way, for anybody who doesn't understand sarcasm. Don't bury your money in the backyard. But with a high-yield savings account, at least you're keeping up with inflation because$45 ,000 20 years from now won't buy you$45 ,000 worth of goods.

1:39:48George Kamel:And so I would at least try to keep up with inflation in a high-yield savings account with, let's say,$40 ,000. Maybe you start there and you start to put a little bit more in over time. But there's really no good reason unless you can tell me why you need that much cash on hand at all times because you can go to the bank and get a cashier's check today. You can transfer money. And you've got FDIC insurance in the bank. So there are more protections you have in the bank than you do with a gun safe at home. It's your word against anyone else's that that money was there. Okay. Yeah, I really don't have a good reason why it's there.

1:40:21I've just always heard you have a safety net in both places. What's left on the car loan?

1:40:27George Kamel:I'm sorry? What's the balance left on the car loan? It's under$3 ,000. Oh, my gosh. Why don't you just go take three grand in cash and go down and pay off the loan? Why even stick with six more payments to deal with that? Well, I figured it was helping me with my credit. Oh, no! Okay, well, we'll get you a book for that. Why do you need credit at this point in the game? In preparation to buy a house. But you have a land loan that you're making payments on, right? Yes. That'll keep up your credit score just fine. That's going to get you all you need. Keeping the car loan is not going to do you any favors.

1:41:05George Kamel:I would get rid of it. It's one less thing living in your head rent free. You're doing so well. There's really no reason to carry this. And then on top of that, you could be using some of this cash to even pay down the land loan. Yeah, I don't think you need$45. What are your monthly expenses right now to run everything in your house, pay all your bills?

1:41:25Probably about$700.

1:41:27George Kamel:You can live off$700 a month. Your land loan is more than that. no it's not my land loan is only 520 a month do you have utilities and that's part of it food um insurance what's your rent phone internet i will say i am currently living with my boyfriend and we have an agreement that if my name is not on the house or anything where i could get equity if something were to happen, but I don't pay a bill. And so I don't have any expenses in that. You're just living with the boyfriend rent-free. Yes. Well, how long is that supposed to last? Well, until he decides it's time to get married. And then I don't mind sharing some of the roads.

1:42:20How long have you all been living together? About six months. Okay.

1:42:26George Kamel:How long have you guys been together as a couple? Under a year. Okay. This is very new. You just jumped on in. Yeah, hello. You said, hey, rent free. I'll take it. Why wouldn't she? This guy gave her such a deal. It's hard to refuse that one. So you're paying for groceries and insurance and the land loan and a car payment. Your expenses are more than$700. Let's be honest.

1:42:49George Kamel:Even with him paying the rent. Okay. I would keep an emergency fund of$15 ,000. now i know this is his gun safe you got your money in his gun safe that's that's his house you got that money parked i moved in oh you moved your gun safe in why not boy i tell you you are in charge you're not paying a nickel of rent until he puts a ring on there's one reason to put in a bank because right now it's on his property that he legally owns and if i don't know i'm just i makes me nervous i don't i gotta tell you the i i the big brother role i'm very uncomfortable with this situation you you need yeah so first of all let's get back to the thing that's most pertinent you 45 000 needs to go in the bank number one number two uh george what what do we think she's probably a thousand dollars pay off the car loan so six thousand is six months emergency fund for you and i would keep but that ain't a real situation yeah if your life changes at all if he dumps if he dumps you you and your cash are moving out right or if you dump him I feel like it's probably more of that than the other way around, right?

1:43:55George Kamel:Let's be honest. If anybody's dumping somebody, it's you dumping him. Isn't that right? We'll see. Does he have$45 ,000 saved? No, he does not. There we go. Does this guy have debt? Yes, he does. Oh, boy. Does he know the code to the safe? No. He has his own safe. I have my own safe. His and hers. That's romantic. That's how we like it. That's fun. All right. We're cheering you on, Kevin. We are. I would get rid of the debt. Get rid of it. I would park the money in a high-yield savings, keep enough for an emergency fund. Any money beyond that now becomes let's pay down this land loan while trying to save up for the house.

1:44:36George Kamel:I would probably just attack the land loan once that's done, then take out the loan and make sure it's no more than 25 % of your take-home pay. That would be the wise way to do it so that you don't buy too much house because you can get a little carried away with a land loan going, Well, the bank said they'll give me$500 ,000 for a mortgage. It doesn't mean you should take that. And you didn't call for relationship advice, but it's your lucky day because I'm giving it. You've been together for a year, living together six months. If this guy doesn't show some type of desire to put a ring on it and start talking about marrying you, I wouldn't keep living with him.

1:45:11George Kamel:Anecdotally. Because this will turn into two years and all this. It's just a weird situation. When people move in together before marriage, it's, well, we've been together for nine years now, and he still hasn't put a ring on it. Right. I got newsflash for you, ladies. He ain't going to. He's not going to. He's got a good situation without the commitment. So I don't like it. Make him commit. That's Uncle Ken for you. He's going to Uncle Ken. That's what he does. I'm going to do it.

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1:46:53George Kamel:hey if you're enjoying the program you can help us grow and we are growing and we're so grateful but hey here's how you do it like subscribe and share share share on whatever platform you're doing that helps us grow you guys are the greatest marketing program of all time so If it's helping you, we'd love for you to help us get in front of more people so we can help more people. Haley is up right here in our backyard, Nashville, Tennessee. Haley, how can we help? So my question is, how do you break out of the working, essentially, hustle cycle once you get to a place of comfort, I guess is the best way to say it.

1:47:29George Kamel:That's a great question. So am I to understand, like, you've done the baby steps. you've won big time and now it's like how do I get out of that gazelle intensity and actually smell the coffee a bit huh yeah kind of I can give you a little more background yeah give us a little bit so I'm a single 30 year old female a couple years ago I started realizing that I needed to do more for my future to like get ahead so I came to the conclusion that I needed to up my income okay um so I moved jobs and the job where I'm at currently my regular hours I gross about 80k a year um but i have the ability to work lots of overtime okay and so the last couple years i've been able to make between 200 to 250k come on working way to go hayley yeah working though 90 to 100 hours oh you got to stop and seriously yeah have you been at this pace for how long?

1:48:31Probably about three years.

1:48:33George Kamel:But that was to get through the baby steps? Honestly, so I didn't graduate with any student loan debt or anything. I really didn't have any debt. I just really wanted to pay off my house and build my retirement. Good for you. With the hope of being able to retire, you know, in the future sooner than 65 or whatever. Okay. So tell us where you are. Did you pay the house off? Yep. I've paid off my$300 ,000 house. Way to go. How much you got in retirement? I built up my investment accounts totaling around$250 ,000. Fantastic. I have a really good emergency fund. How much? I tracked probably like$60 ,000.

1:49:20George Kamel:Yeah. This is screaming. There's another reason why you're working those hours. Yeah. What is the real real? Come on. You called us. I don't know. No judgment. I don't know. Yeah, you do. I think there's just like, like I grew up in a home where there was no money. There we go. Come on. It's safe, Haley. You're safe here. Yeah. So it's just a lot of anxiety with that. Yeah. There it is. And that's okay. And I think today's call might be a big step in the right direction just to say it in front of a lot of people, say it to us, these two strange dudes. I grew up in a home where there was nothing and it was painful to watch.

1:50:05George Kamel:It wasn't just painful to watch for your parents. It probably was painful for you. And somewhere along the way, young Haley made a decision. You may not even remember it. Maybe you do remember the day. But whether you remember doing it or not, you said, this is never going to be my life. And it became a statement of conviction because it takes conviction. I mean, soul, deep passion to work 90 to 100 hours a week. Am I right, George? Like that's not grit. There's something deeper. And you just shared it with us. Well, at that point, you were running from trauma instead of running towards peace and freedom.

1:50:49George Kamel:And I think it's time to make that shift to go, we're okay now. We're going to be fine. You're only 30 years old and you are light years ahead of probably anybody in your family or even in your circles. Okay, real fun, real quick. I want George to do this. George is the master. George, would you pull up your investment calculator here? Oh, this is fun. She's got 200 grand in her retirement accounts or in her investment accounts at the age of 30. uh this may be a moot point Haley because part of me thinks you've run this exercise but George yeah she's like I've done the math I halfway through I realized like I forgot who I was talking to right now Haley knows so you actually know without putting him on the spot then you know how much money that's going to turn into over the next 20 30 years yes yeah oh yeah is that enough no no let me let me rephrase let me rephrase is it enough to never be in the situation that you saw your parents in i i feel like yes but then a part of me is like well what if something happens okay play that out then it just kind of what would be that what would be a thing that would do that to you?

1:52:01George Kamel:Do you think the stock market goes to zero? Like, I know logically that it doesn't because, you know, we've seen the returns. It's, you know, think about what that would mean. It would mean every company in America goes bankrupt. At which point we have bigger problems than reliving childhood trauma. Yeah. That's probably when there's nobody alive but the cockroaches. So what are we worried about? Like, we all have bigger problems at that point than, well, I'm back to It was a situation that I grew up in. Does that make sense? Yeah. And logically, I can understand that. It's just like. It was real for you.

1:52:42Yeah. It's hard because it's like they'll offer you the work. And so it's hard to say no because I know how much a value of one of those shifts is.

1:52:53George Kamel:Right. And so it's just, it's hard to. What are the chances, Haley, that you do something bone jarringly stupid with money? What are the chances on a scale of zero to 100 that you would do something stupid with money? Probably zero. It's like, yeah. Negative zero. Have you sat with a professional to talk about all that trauma around money and probably a lot of other junk? Probably not as much as I should have. Can you? Yeah. Can I tell you something? Mm-hmm. I had danced around therapy, done a little bit here and there for years, and I was masking stuff. I was literally trying to just hold it all in.

1:53:33George Kamel:And I finally got to a point over a year ago where I realized that I was turning into an angry person due to several factors. And I realized that I was unable to handle it. I couldn't manage it anymore. And it's really, really hard to admit that. But can I tell you, because I want you to hear me, that I think that you can get freedom from this. I really do. I actually think a professional will help you go back into the past, see it all from every angle, understand what happened to you. And out of that, you get the tools to be able to go, oh, I won't be victim to this fear around money anymore, which will then allow me to live a normal life and work 40 hours and go on vacation and do something fun.

1:54:20George Kamel:And give some of that money away. Because I'm talking to somebody who's got a huge heart. Do you hear that heart on her, Joy? Absolutely. Yeah, what I'm hearing too is you just got a flat tire. You are so good at saving and hoarding and investing. And we need to increase the spending. We need to increase the generosity. And it's going to unlock so much. And I think take the pressure out of this like, well, I could be saving that. I could be taking that shift. Instead, it's going to turn into, that'll be a fun experience. Let me invite some friends to that trip. I'll cover it. hey let me go give to this thing i'm passionate about let me go volunteer for fun in the free time instead of taking that extra shift and if you force yourself to do that with a budget over time you'll create those new habits and you'll drop the old ones and you'll drop the mentality of everything needs to be about a dollar amount and what it could be what it could turn into so good have you heard of the fire movement yeah okay oh yeah she probably carries a membership card yeah maybe intentionally or unintentionally and here's what i found they get there and the post shifts.

1:55:17George Kamel:And instead of, well, I have 3 million, but I don't know if it's enough. I think I need five now. And then 10 years from now it goes, well, I think I need 10 now because what if? And the other thing that happens is when you stop working and doing something that you enjoy, it turns into boredom after the fun wears off. That boredom turns into depression and then you're going to seek purpose for fulfillment. So I would leapfrog all of that and just go to the seek purpose for fulfillment part. And through relationship. Working 90 to 100 hours, you don't spend a lot of time with friends or anybody, do you?

1:55:46Not, not tons.

1:55:48George Kamel:Okay. I want you to answer this really quickly. Okay. If I was paying for it and I said, you get to take three or four girlfriends for a fun weekend, what would you do? Give me, give me an answer. Well, I'm, I am taking a trip. I'm going to Maine with my college roommates. Okay, great. My point is that's, that's your new homework assignment. One thing a month within a budget so that we, Until you get that therapy and start to learn how to not be afraid of money, I think you need to learn to do something fun. Buy somebody's food in the drive-thru behind you. Little acts of giving, little acts of fun that are very intentional.

1:56:26George Kamel:You're going to feel safe doing it. You invested in your 401k. Time to invest in yourself, Haley. You got this.

1:56:57George Kamel:our scripture of the day comes from jeremiah 26 verse 14 as for me i am in your hands do with me whatever you think is good and right and our quote today from george bernard shaw both optimists and pessimists contribute to society. The optimist invents the aeroplane. The pessimist, the parachute. Oh, I like that. It's a, dare I say, overly simplistic philosophy there. I could pull that one apart. I'm not sure I completely agree with that quote. Just let it be a tweet. Just be, you know. Well, I thought it was safe because he's no longer with us. He's not going to reach out to me on social media.

1:57:32George Kamel:I see the truth in what he's saying. Yeah. But a little overly simplistic. Ken is anti-pessimist. I'll tell you that much. That is a fact. Don't like to hang out with pessimists. Dustin is in Nevada. Nevada, Nevada. I know it's Nevada, but my heart says Nevada. My brain says Nevada. I'm going to correct it to Nevada because I recently met somebody and they really poignantly told me, Ken, it's Nevada. So there we go. It just sounds too Midwestern. I know. And it's not in the Midwest. I feel like I'm screwing it up too. From Nevada. Yeah. Dustin, how can we help? uh hi and you're right it is nevada you say that out here you're bound to get stoned i know i know i caught a little heat from somebody here that came to our offices and told me you're saying it all wrong ken uh but it really damaged my ego for a while but i got over it how can we help you uh yeah um so i've been listening to to your guys's show for uh three months it's been uh very eye-opening and I'm eager to get on the debt-free bandwagon.

1:58:36I do have a ways to go. So what's going on is that I'm contemplating selling my house and downsizing to pay off some of my debts. My parents are kind of saying, you know, stay where you are. You won't be able to get another house like this or build on our place. We've got plenty of land or buy a duper. complex.

1:59:00George Kamel:And I, I'll tell you what, why don't you run the numbers? Cause we know what you're considering. Should I sell my house to pay off debt? Walk us through your debt. So I have a credit card debt, which I've tackled is$3 ,000. Let me see a student loan debt, $20 ,000. Medical debt, it's kind of been on the rise of$5 ,000. Let me see, what else? My yearly income is$50 ,000. I do have a side hustle that I'm doing to pay off some of those debts. How much does your side hustle generate? rate? Not that much, but I think about like seven,$10 ,000 a year, maybe. Okay. Is that all the debt? Yeah, that's all the debt.

1:59:58And the income you gave us, that's not take home, that's gross?

2:00:03George Kamel:50K, is that gross or net bringing home? I would say that it's, sorry, I feel so stupid. No, no, it's totally okay. Before taxes or after taxes? I apologize. Yes, what are you bringing home? After taxes, what are you putting in the bank account? Oh, after taxes, I think it's about$40 ,000. Okay, gotcha. So$40 ,000 take home. What's your mortgage and the mortgage payment? Mortgage payment is$1 ,623. $23. The mortgage amount on the house is$196 ,000. What's it worth? I got it recently appraised. It's worth between$348 ,000 to$370 ,000. All right, George, what do you think? $350 ,000. What do you think, George?

2:00:56George Kamel:Well, here's what's happening. Your mortgage is about almost half your take-home pay, and so you're feeling the crunch. Yeah, it's like 40%, yeah. So the question is always, is the mortgage the problem or is the debt the problem? And looking at this, you could clean up the debt and you might still be stressed out trying to make this mortgage payment every month. Exactly. So the question I have is, is there room for your income to grow in the foreseeable future? And will you get married one day? Will you go back to school? Not again, no. I'm a single parent, so yeah. It's not in the picture. No, I got hurt and burned pretty badly.

2:01:34George Kamel:I'm so sorry about that. Well, at least not while I'm raising my kid. My goal is to just raise my kid to 18, then I'll go back to the dating game. How old are you? 31. How old is your kid? He's 8 years old. Okay. He has autism, and so a lot of my time is, you know, blessed. Is that why you feel somewhat limited on the income professional ladder question that George posed? Because you immediately went to, no, I can't really make more money because I'd have to go back to school. And I do want to lean into that for just a moment to see if that's in fact true or a limiting belief. So what do you do for a living?

2:02:21Well, I'm a procurement specialist for an industrial supply company.

2:02:26George Kamel:Okay. And what does a move up the ladder look like? Are there a couple rungs of a ladder above your position in your current company? Next level would probably be like a supervisor, but all other positions would require me to relocate to the East Coast, and I can't do that. I totally get that. So what would it take to get the supervisor role, and how much would that pay? it would require me to probably get a bachelor's degree in business I doubt that I would challenge that you should at least look into that you're probably right here's my point Dustin the fact that you're and listen it sounded even when I say that I know sometimes I feel like well that was a little bold Ken but I mean you got to look into it and when you go I think it would require a bachelor's like, I don't know, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

2:03:21George Kamel:But you owe it to yourself and your child to look into it. Because where we are, if we've got a rung on the ladder that we can get to through good work and raising our hands saying, hey, I'd like to do this, and it doesn't require additional schooling, and let's say it pays you an additional 15, 20, 30 grand, I mean, you owe it to yourself and your kid to look into it. Yes. Yeah. And I have, and, uh, and, uh, my company actually does offer a tuition reimbursement plan. And I thought, yes, this is finally my ticket. And, you know, I went to my parents with it and said, Hey, you know, I can do this.

2:03:58If you can just, you know, help me out with childcare, you know, I can get this knocked out and like maybe fat four or five years. And, uh, we'll be, you know, me and my kiddo will be set. And And their reaction was like, no, your child needs you. You know, you can't go this route.

2:04:14George Kamel:Okay. And I hate that for you. I feel like a deflated balloon. I'm sure that there's ways that I can reinflate myself. I just need to figure out what it is. Well, for one thing, getting healthy because you've been hurt and there's nothing wrong with you. Somebody did a number on your heart and that's tough. And you sound like that, by the way. And I'm not picking on you. I actually feel for you. so in this step here it's like okay whatever it's going to take for you to get healthy sitting down with a therapist and get some healing and overcoming that and beginning to see oh wait there's more opportunity than just the company you're at you know i asked you to look into it you're like well you're probably right but then i looked into this there's still some uncertainty and i think you've got to take control of your life and your situation but i want to get back to the money thing real quick, George.

2:05:03George Kamel:Okay. Because we've got about a minute with you. George, back to, because I think you need to be looking for income. I know you're taking care of your boy, but you've got to be looking for income growth. And I also think you're, I mean, just based on a quick search, I think you're underpaid for the role that you're in. I think it should be closer to 60 and 90. And so you might be looking for other roles. That might mean a local move. It doesn't mean to the East Coast. Maybe it's a different field, but you're still in the procurement world. So I would be looking at that and see what can I do without needing to go back to school right now?

2:05:34George Kamel:Because right now we just need to clean up this debt at the very least and get an emergency fund. And I don't think the house is a thing that's like on fire right now where you need to go sell it tomorrow. It's$1 ,600. You're going to pay that in rent in your area, I assume. Correct? Yeah, pretty much. And so that's not going to solve a lot other than taking some equity to knock out the debt, which will knock out a few payments. But you can debt snowball your way out of this with a good side hustle and be out of debt. You've got$28 ,000 in debt. You're making$60 ,000. You can be done in 18 months.

2:06:02George Kamel:That's right. So we want you to stay in the house for now. I think that's good for you long term, but you've got to increase your income. That's the issue here. It's not the house. It's an income problem, and we're rooting for you, man. Yeah, sorry, Dustin. But again, part of this is you do what you've got to do to be able to afford to sit with a good counselor, man, and get healing on the other side of this heartbreak. And you'll be a different man, and life will be better, too. Thank you. remember there's only one way to financial peace and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace Christ Jesus