Stop Giving Away Your Control

22:05George Kamel:Absolutely. What's going on? Okay, so my question is, me and my husband took on debt about two years ago, the first time in our five-year marriage, and it was all in a mortgage. But that was the first time in our marriage that we felt a lot of weight and heaviness and a stress. And even though it was still within Ramsey's perimeters, it still felt very heavy. Especially after I became a mom, I felt like removed the option of me not being able to just be a mom anymore. I had to continue working because the mortgage was based on both of our incomes. And so we decided to try to put the house on the market, go to a smaller rent.

22:59And our goal in the long run is to never go back in debt, but to instead take that house payment that we were making and put it into investments to hopefully one day buy a house outright. And I just wanted to know in the long run, especially with well-meaning people around us telling us, no, you need to buy a house, you need to buy a house. I just wanted to know in the long run that we were still going to be financially okay.

23:26I will say we teach two methods of buying a house here. And the one that we love is when people have cash to buy a house outright. We don't get a whole lot of those calls, but there are people who do it. And then, of course, the other method is to have a mortgage that's in the proper parameters. And we can talk about that later. For what you're saying, I think it can be good. The tough part about this and the variable here that's kind of the unknown is what will the house cost? It's a moving goalpost, right? So it's what will the house cost 10 years from now? And there's a big difference between five years from now and 10 years from now.

24:06And so I think the question you guys have to be asking is, how do you want your life to feel? Which I think you have asked that question. And I also want to know how old you are because I'm, you know, taking 10 years to buy a house is not a bad thing. It took my husband and I 10 years to buy a house. And as long as you're able to do those things that cause you to build wealth in the process, I don't have a problem with it. But just know that there's a moving goalpost there, George. And that's the unknown that can be really tough is we're depending on the market to give us the returns that we want.

24:41And we're depending on the housing market to be where we want it to be when we're ready to pull that money out.

24:48George Kamel:There's a lot of variables we can't control. So let's focus on the ones we can control. And one of those is saving enough to get the mortgage that's super reasonable, even if it's on his one income. So what is the mortgage payment today? $3 ,000. $3 ,000? Mm-hmm. Okay, and what do you guys bring home currently? Well, with my income, we were bringing in about$200. But like I said, I have some babies in the picture that I want to be with more, so that could drop down some. To what? Let's say it was just his income. If it's just his income, it's going to vary, George, but it could be$150 to$200 because he's taken on more work so that I could work less.

25:34Got it. Now, let me just ask this question because the way you framed it was you didn't feel good because we needed your income for the mortgage. If there was a world where you could have a reasonable mortgage just on his income, would that be enough to relieve the stress while still getting you into the housing market? Potentially, because the biggest thing was when the babies came along, I was like, I want to be with them. but I mean yes potentially I think that would put stress on him but maybe yeah I think the ideal

26:08George Kamel:scenario is can we get his income up sustainably to the point where you guys can just stay in the house that's option one that'll save you the most money because selling your home and buying a new one is going to cost you a whole lot in fees too on top of hassle so the next option is you guys sell and rent for a while, but rent is going to cost you what in your area? $1 ,400. Okay. So what you really can save is the$1 ,600 and put that towards a down payment fund. Yes. So you're not taking your whole mortgage payment and saving it because you still have to pay for rent over here, right? Yeah. So$1 ,600, we'll do the math here.

26:46George Kamel:$1 ,600 for 12 months, you're going to save$19 ,000 a year. So how much are you going to get from the sale of your house if you sold it today? About$6 ,000,$7 ,000. Wow, so you'll be lucky to break even on this thing. Yes. Okay, so we're not making a lot of profit. So basically you're starting from scratch. And what would a house cost you if you bought one in the future? This was only a 1 ,300 square foot home, but probably around the same. the area. I mean, we looked at several homes. They were all upwards$250 to$300. This one was$355. Okay. So to buy, let's say magically the home is still$350 grand years from now.

27:30George Kamel:At that rate, you're still talking about needing to save for 18 years. That$19 grand a year, it's going to take you 18 years to save up$350. What about investing it into the market? Would that help? It would help a little bit, but it's not going to be magic. Your savings rate is going to be the trick here when you're talking about a four to five year time horizon to buy a home. Investing it isn't going to move the needle a ton. If you're super lucky, like we've seen these last few years, you could double your money in about five or six years. So 40 grand could turn to 80. 80 grand can turn to 160.

28:08George Kamel:So you're still a ways away from that number. Had you run that math at all, Haven, or was this kind of, and it's okay if it was, just kind of an idea that you wanted to run by us? Yeah, we did. We did run it some. And we were also thinking, I mean, I've listened to the show several times. I hear you guys say a lot, like, your income could potentially go up. I've seen his income, even just in the five years that we've been married, continue to go up. But he's an electrician, and so it does the more work and the more his name gets out there, the more money he does have come in. Is it his own business that he's running, or does he work for someone?

28:43Yeah, yeah. So, George, did you plug him in? Do you see him there?

28:46George Kamel:Yeah, I'm looking at if you – let's say you invested for five years. You did that$1 ,600 a year. You even started with$6 ,000 from the home sale. You'd have about$133 ,000 in there five years from now. No, George, we would start with about$60 ,000. We had$60 ,000 in the investment. Oh, good. I think you said$6 ,000 or$7 ,000. When we got married, we had no debt and we just started investing. Is it in brokerage funds, not in retirement funds? Yeah, Roth IRAs and traditional. Okay, so if it's in Roth IRAs and traditional IRAs, that's retirement, earmarked for retirement. So we wouldn't include that because that would be to your detriment.

29:22So the money would need to just be invested in a normal brokerage account. Probably I'd just throw it in an index fund. but with the money that you currently have available to you and with a fair rate of return, did you put 10 % in there, George? That's where we're at. And we're not saying that to bust your bubble. And I kind of want to like shift the mood here because I absolutely think that there's a way that you can be in a home, that you can be in a home in a responsible way that's not going to feel detrimental to you as a stay-at-home mom. And do this thing without having to wait 10 years.

29:56I just think that it's going to require you guys to go, okay, the current house we have, maybe it's too much house for you if you're staying home. That's fine. And if you decide to rent for a little while while you save up a better down payment, that honestly just, you know, woman to woman, that feels like a fair trade-off to get you in a house where you're actually, you know, feeling the growth of equity. You're actually participating in the market and building wealth in that way versus waiting 10 years with more unknowns in the equation.

30:23George Kamel:So I would wait and see. I wouldn't rush to sell this house. I would see, do a budget just based on his income on the average. What would it feel like to make a$3 ,000 mortgage payment if he's making 10 grand a month? Because I don't want you to feel like you have to sell it if it's 26 % and Ramsey said 25%. It's not about that. It's, do you have enough margin to invest 15 % for your future? Save up some for your kid's college, put a little extra toward the mortgage. Those are the signs that you're doing well financially and that you didn't make a huge mistake with this home. So I love the heart that You want to stay home.

30:55George Kamel:You don't want to make a bad financial mistake, but I don't want you to feel a paranoid level about this purchase. You guys are doing great.

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32:48George Kamel:If you're working the baby steps, the best and fastest way to do it is by using EveryDollar. It's more than just our budgeting app. The plan is now built into it. You can track your progress, get personalized recommendations and coaching for your situation. So check it out. Start every dollar for free in the App Store or Google Play. Kirsten is in Houston, Texas. What's going on, Kirsten? Hi. Oh my gosh. I'm honored to talk to you guys. You won the lottery today. You got Jade. I did. I did. I love you guys both. So some background on my question is my husband and I are on four, five, and six. Our kids go to private school.

33:25You know, we're living our best lives frankly, and we've been running the numbers with our financial advisor, and we need about$10 million to retire in about 30 years, and that's kind of our surplus number. At 15%, we will be retiring with over$15 million at this rate. Heck yeah. Yeah, I know it's a tough place to be, but my question is, we just don't want to live with a crazy surplus at the end of our lives, So we were thinking about pulling back about 5 % and putting that towards the house so we can pay it off in like seven to eight years instead of about 13. And I wanted to get your opinion on that.

34:06That number that you quoted, what percentage of your income is that you investing? Is that 15 % or? Yeah, 15%.

34:13George Kamel:Okay. What's your household income? 328 on the basis and then we get like 50 to 70 in bonuses. Fantastic. Well, I love all of these numbers. And what was the annual rate of return you guys were using to crunch this to get to that$15 million? Do you remember? 9%, so it was a little low. Cool. Well, I love that. We've never told anyone to stop investing to pay off the house earlier or to, hey, you're going to be funded later on. Because I don't know what the next 30 years holds for you. If I did, I would tell you absolutely do this. But you might want to retire 15 years from now, 20 years. Who knows what's going to happen?

34:51George Kamel:in a health crisis. Maybe it's for a good reason and you want to step away. But I just wouldn't, you know, put it all in that basket of, well, we're definitely going to have this income for the next 30 years. One person could get laid off and not have that income anymore and not be able to get a job that pays that much. I hope that's not the case, but I'm kind of a, I'm a glass half full guy when it comes to what it could be. And I'm also a glass half empty guy when it comes to preparing for what could be. It's just the nature of life. Life be life in. So how long would it take with your current fantastic income outside of your 15 % to pay off the house?

35:2813 years is what we currently have projected, but obviously that may change as our income goes up, hopefully. What do you owe on it? We owe about$600 ,000.

35:37George Kamel:Okay. And how much can you realistically put towards it? Could you up that from cutting expenses elsewhere in your budget, making this kind of money? yeah i mean we could probably realistically like i said i think we're living a pretty nice life um as is but over 50 of our monthly income goes towards private school for the kids and then our donations and then we've got our mortgage and other things so like realistically outside of giving in private school and investing in the mortgage we're probably living on like 20 % of our income, which is why we need such a low number compared to our actual income.

36:18Yeah. How old are you guys? 30. Okay. So, I mean, you highlighted something which is important to highlight, which is there are seasons of life, obviously, seasons where there's daycare, there's kids in college, those tend to be more expensive years that you really can't get around. But then there's values that you decide that you're going to sink money into, which are my kids are going to go to private school throughout their entire education. And when you make those choices, there's a trade-off involved, which means because I did this, now my margin is maybe significantly less margin that I would have put towards the house or margin that I would have put towards a 529, those sorts of things.

36:55So just realize that you guys are making choices based on your family values. And when you do that, it's not just a choice, it's a trade-off. And I think that's probably what you're feeling saying that, okay, it's going to take us, because of that, it's going to take us 13 years to pay off the mortgage. And because we want to continue to enjoy certain other niceties, it's going to take us 13 years, which 13 years to pay off a mortgage, by the way, that's not small potatoes. That's pretty impressive.

37:23George Kamel:Especially since you'll be 43 years old with a paid for, I'm guessing, million-dollar-plus home? Yes. Yeah. The value is about$900 ,000 right now. So it's going to be way more than that 13 years from now. I don't think that's a bad thing. Yeah, looking at the full picture, I don't have any problem with you guys paying it off in 13 years versus eight years and freeing up that money a little bit sooner. Because cash flow isn't your problem right now. And if you guys said, hey, we have this other thing we really want to do, we don't have the money for, we need to temporarily pause, I can make a case for that.

37:53George Kamel:But long term, just investing less because you don't think you'll need it, I'm going to go, hey, I'd rather you have$5 million extra that you can give to the places and people you want to give to. because you have the option. And so we took a call similar to this the other day, Jade, and Dave had a similar response. Dave could have stopped investing 30 years ago. He still invests to this day as a 65-year-old man who definitely doesn't need another dollar, but it's because he wants to have options. He wants to give even more and have even more impact and leave even bigger inheritance to his children's children.

38:28George Kamel:There's nothing wrong with that. And even if you did have$15 million, you can spend it from$60 to$90 if you want to. Yeah. And it also highlights the nature of the baby steps, how we teach them, which is, you know, steps four through seven really are about intentionality. You don't have to have that same speed and intensity that you had in baby steps one through three. And I think that we get that call a lot because people do. The nature of what we teach, everybody's like Ricky Bobby. They just want to go fast. And there does come a point where you can go, you know what? I can actually enjoy my life.

38:59I can value private school. I can value family vacations. And if that means I pay off my mortgage in 11 years instead of six, that's okay. You're still winning at life if you pay off your mortgage in 11 or 12 years.

39:12George Kamel:If you paid off in under 15, that's a huge win in my book and you're doing better than most of America. Absolutely. Way to go. I like solving good problems. That's a good problem to have right there. All right. Matthew's in Austin, Texas up next. What's going on, Matthew? Hey, thanks for taking my call. Absolutely. Hey, just a quick question on 401k plans. My wife and I have worked at several companies over the last 10 years, and we have 401k plans kind of spread out everywhere, all different apps, things like that, and really wanted to consolidate it. And to be honest, Gemini and Claude have been giving me conflicting stuff, so I really wanted to call and see what are my best options to consolidate everything in a safe way.

39:50George Kamel:I'm curious. What was the general consensus so far if you didn't call it? The general consensus was to do an IRA rollover, but our contributions are split up between pre-tax and 401k Roth, and I'm not sure how to split that up or anything like that. I got you. I actually just did this for my wife not too long ago because she left Ramsey to stay home with our kids after a nine-year career, and because her match portion was in traditional and her investment portion was in Roth, her contributions, what I did was create two different IRAs. So a rollover traditional IRA and a rollover Roth IRA. And so once, you know, I get that check from her old 401k, it goes into Vanguard into one portion and the other one to the other portion.

40:37George Kamel:So you just want to keep them in like kind. So a traditional portion needs to go in traditional rollover and same with the Roth. And if you do it that way, it wasn't all that complicated. I literally took a picture of the check on my phone and it deposited within a day. And just be sure when you say check, the check is not made out to you. You're not cashing out those funds in any way. Yeah, you should be able to do a direct rollover. I, for some reason, because my life is difficult, they had to actually send a check for, you know, in Vanguard's name to that account. In Vanguard's name, yep. And so that's the simplest way to do it.

41:07George Kamel:And you can do all of that into, if you have five old 401ks that are all traditional, you can put that all into one rollover IRA. You don't need five different rollovers. Do they split it up for you? or is that something I have to figure out between what we've already done for 401k Roth versus what hasn't been taxed yet? They should be able to write the checks if you contact them. Then they'll be separate checks because they're separate accounts completely with different account numbers. So once you get that, you should have two checks from every 401k if they had both Roth and traditional in them.

41:40Okay.

41:41George Kamel:And if you need help with this, you can contact the SmartVestor Pro, and they'll walk you through the whole process and handle all those pieces because it can be scary. You're dealing with some big numbers here. You're like, oh, that's$160 ,000. I don't want to hit the wrong button. And so our investment pro can really help. You can jump on to RamseySolutions.com and give that a go. But yes, please, this is a PSA for anyone out there with a bunch of old 401ks sitting around. It is collecting dust and it's dinging you with fees and it's probably not performing very well. So it's time. Contact them, get that money out of there, put it in an IRA that's in your control.

42:15George Kamel:That's your best option. George, there's an estimated 31.9 million of forgotten 401ks left behind. That's wild. Don't forget, my friends. Couldn't it? That's different than 20 bucks in the coat pocket.

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43:43George Kamel:welcome back to the ramsey show in the fairwinds credit union studio i'm george camel here with jade warshaw taking your calls at 888-825-5225 maury is in tampa florida what's going on maury how can we help hey y 'all happy friday um it's been uh it's been a bit of a crazy year for me since January. I just want some help figuring out what the next best step is for me. Yeah, lay out the crazy. What happened? Well, at the top of the year, I was kind of crushing it, man. Top performing portfolio at my job, leaving the account management team. I had baby step one knocked out, which was brutal. And I was working on step two, but then my old accord crapped out on me.

44:29And it would have cost more to fix it than I initially paid for it. So I figured I'd get creative, bought a used electric motorcycle because down here it's sunny all the time and I don't have to worry about the snow. Right. But that was really done to avoid wiping my savings completely and, you know, trying to keep some momentum on step two. So that was really rough. But I actually ended up getting a promotion about two weeks later. So I thought we were looking good, man. And the nature of that business is more so urgent versus important. Make money today type of thing. And the role they put me in was very experimental and more long term stuff.

45:01and unfortunately they ended up laying me off two months later. Oh, man. When was that? Yeah, it's pretty rough. I don't really want to, you know, I have a very strange name in a very known place and I think these people are just kind of listening and, you know, it's some sensitive stuff. How many months ago?

45:17George Kamel:Have you not had a job for months now? Yeah, that was in May and I've been working on getting applications out but, I mean, I even applied for a part-time spot at a gas station and I got shut down the other day, and that's been really rough. Man. Okay, how much debt do you have? So through all that, I've got$27K in two cards, a personal loan, and student loans, and that's what I was working on paying down and stuff too. You got two car loans? Cards. Cards, credit cards. Oh, credit cards. Okay, so no car loan. Is it just you? No car, no car loan either. Is it just you or do you have kids, a wife, anybody else?

46:00Oh, man, that's the rough part. My lady and I are going through a breakup right now. Oh, man, I'm sorry to hear that. Was this a girlfriend? Yes, yes, sir. So there's no real, you know, it's not a divorce proceeding or anything, but, you know, our lease is ending right now, and it's been really rough over the last couple months. And so I've just been down in the dumps, man, to be honest with you. It's been tough. It's been a lot. Yeah, I mean, you're living in a country song right now in the worst way,

46:25George Kamel:So I'm so sorry you're going through it. Yeah, without the dirt roads and the beer, you know? Yeah, none of the fun parts. So what's next? Where are you going to live when this lease is up? I have two scenarios that are playing out of my head right now. Number one, one of my good friends has offered me a place in his guest room for three months. He gave me a solid tenure, and he tried to help me get back on my feet. But I'm looking at a move back to the Northeast to be close to family again, which is what I'm probably going to end up doing is living with an aunt for a while and then jumping back on my feet from there.

47:01But are there more options in the Northeast for what you do? Because I feel like much of where you decide to go needs to be based on the job market for what you are skilled to do. Yeah. I mean, being in account management and sales, it's it's kind of everywhere. and then up in the Northeast as well. I mean, I'm sure I could knock on some doors for somebody selling shoveling services. It's just been tough. So you need, I think there's two sides of this coin. I think there's the change of scenery because of what you've been through. And then there's the actual, where do I have the most opportunity?

47:39And I would spend some time really making sure that one is not, that the emotional side doesn't lead you to do something that maybe may not be best for you work-wise. So I don't know the answer to that question. It's just me putting that out there for you to be thinking through, because I could see how a change of scenery would be nice. But if the truth is there's more opportunity, I don't know, in the Florida area, then maybe you should stay in that area. So think through that, because you will get a change of scenery simply by moving into a new apartment, wherever that is, right?

48:08George Kamel:Yeah, I'm not mad about the fresh start. I think that's great. We just to be a little strategic about it because right now we're moving out of weakness and desperation and not out of a place of strength. And so I would be applying for jobs in the Northeast, around where your aunt is, and going, okay, what are the opportunities there? Who do I know there? Who does my aunt know there? And kind of using that to, you know, once you land the job, now you know. There's income there and it's the place I'm going to be. So you know your next step. Right now you're sort of floundering because you don't even know what day it is.

48:36Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, And, you know, I like to think I got my bearings, you know, but yeah, you're 100 % spot on with that, man. And you mentioned a phrase in there, fresh start, which is something that I wanted to ask for some counsel about. It was recommended to me because my severance ran out and I currently have no monthly income to explore a potential Chapter 7 bankruptcy. But I don't know what to even start looking into. Well, how much severance did you have? They gave me a month. Okay, one month. It was like$5K worth. And that was, I mean, yeah, I don't think you're anywhere near bankruptcy.

49:11I think you've just fallen on a hard time. And I think it's hard in multiple ways. Like we said, it's emotionally, it's a blow to your confidence. Losing a job in some ways is akin to grief of a loved one. It can really feel that way, especially when you were really counting on it. And then when it came out of the blue. So I think, I mean, I do not want to minimize what you're feeling on an emotional level. but I think that there are some practical things that you can do today that'll give you a little bit of hope. First off, we're gonna send you Ken Coleman's Find the Work You're Wired to Do because you do have a set of skills and they've given you a level of success and chances are those same skills can be translated into other career fields that you're just not thinking of right now because you're not in the clearest state of mind, right?

49:53So that's gonna help you do that. And then tonight, just a personal bit of homework that I'd love for you to do is I would take the time and I would write down everyone you know who knows someone else that might can lead to a job. So let your goal be to write down the names of 10 people and over this weekend, you're gonna call up 10 people and be like, hey, I'm really looking. These are my skills. Do you know of anybody? Is grandma looking? Is auntie looking? Do you have, you know, your buddy Will, like whoever it is, just call these people up and put your name out there because you will be surprised at how things like that travel.

50:28and that's really the way that you find opportunities is through the people that you know in the network that you have so that might feel like jade that's not going to do anything but trust me just do that bit of homework and write down those names and call up those people because it will make if if nothing less it will make you feel better that you're putting in a

50:47George Kamel:different type of effort yeah right and sending 100 texts is going to go way further than applying for a hundred digital resumes in another pile somewhere. Yeah. And to George's point, don't text them, call them. Call them on the phone and say, hey, I'm looking right now. I'm casting my net out. Here's what I've done. I know that you do X, Y, Z. Can you think of anything? And really press in and see what's out there. I think that'll help you out. That's what I would do tonight. But this is one step at a time. Right now, you're just trying to cover the four walls and get through the end of the lease and put food on the table.

51:22George Kamel:So I'd be doing gig work. I'd be signing up for every app under the sun, walking dogs, you name it, house sitting, pet sitting, find out who in your community needs anything and you go do it and treat them well. And all of a sudden you get to survive the next day and the next and the next. And hopefully you can find a part-time job that leads to the full-time job. And then we can make this move. But right now, man, I don't know how you're going to bike, e-bike your way all the way to your aunt's house in the Northeast. We don't have money to do that. so we got to figure out just the next right step so hang on the line we're going to send you find the work you're wired to do to help on the job side

52:21Thank you.

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53:44George Kamel:Elizabeth is up next in Nashville, just down the road. What's going on, Elizabeth? Hi, I am. My husband and I are 100K in debt and we just found out we're pregnant. Whoa. I feel like we need to make some radical decisions in order to make this work. We also have a four-month-old. You have a what? Four-month-old? A four-month-old. Okay. And we live in Nashville, but we're from Minnesota. And we originally planned to move back to Minnesota after we got our debt paid off because Nashville doesn't have state taxes, but Minnesota does. But now with two under one. So is literally the only reason just to avoid state tax?

54:37Yeah, the taxes, they have the state income tax. Uh-huh.

54:43George Kamel:So that's why you moved here? You said you're trying to move back? We've been in Nashville for five years, but obviously being closer to family. Okay, so being closer to family. So now that you have another one on the way, you're like, hey, it'd be easier to be closer to family. Yes. Okay. What do you guys make? It's so hard. $120 ,000. All right. And you said you have$180 ,000 in consumer debt? Yeah. Tell us about that$180 ,000. What is that? It's 150 student loans and then two, my son's medical bill is my medical bill, and then a car for$7 ,000, and then another medical bill for$3 ,000. Wow.

55:31George Kamel:What are all these medical bills for? Birth. Birth. Birth. Birth. and the insurance didn't cover it? Yeah, they didn't cover that little bit. They covered everything else, though. Okay. The student loans, is that all one person, or is that both of you combined? It's minus$49 ,100, and his is the rest. Okay. Are you guys using those degrees? I have paused. I have paused continuing my education until we get out of debt because we don't want to take out any more. and then he was going to be using his degree, but we couldn't afford him to transfer to where he would lose his health insurance. Oh boy.

56:16So what are you guys doing for work? Not if you're not in your high school. He's a high school teacher. He was going to be going to the college atmosphere for recruitment, but he's staying in the high school for now. And then I work in accounting. And what were you going to do? I was going to actually get my accounting degree. Oh, boy. Okay. Okay. Paused it for now because I don't want to take out any more debt. Got it. And the good news is there's an upside there for both of you career-wise that we could probably get to pretty easily once we get this cleaned up. Okay.

56:52George Kamel:So have you guys made progress thus far on the debt? We started this June 12th. we started on our journey and we've paid off$5 ,100 so far. Good. And how much do you guys have in savings right now? Just the baby step. You got$1 ,000, start an emergency fund. Good, baby step one. And then debt snowballing this, what's the next smallest debt you have to pay off? $300 student loan. Good. Okay, so we got some little ones, some ankle biters we can start knocking out. When you guys do your margin, when you do your every dollar budget every month, how much margin do you see there? It's going up. Right now it is$747.39.

57:42I've been on this. Look at this. Way to go. See, America, that is the type of answer we're looking for. This is a person who's on top of their numbers.

57:49George Kamel:You get down to the decimal, I know you're getting out of debt. I know, that's right. Okay, so that's on top of minimum payments and all of your living expenses. You got an extra$750. And that's just with our income. I'm sorry. We've been doing the lift and I've been doing like 15 to 20 hours of lift. And then I started house cleaning. Wow. Good for you. And it's just, I thought there was a light and now I'm like, sorry. That's okay. It's okay. You're doing a lot and then you, it sounds like this pregnancy was unexpected. Am I right? Yeah. Out of the blue. And it's kind of thrown, I mean, as wonderful it is for a baby to come into this world, it's also a little bit of a wrench in your plans.

58:34So totally, we're with you. We get it. Okay. Okay. And we're going to help you go through it. Because you've still got time, right? How far along are you?

58:48Five weeks. Okay. So this baby's got time to cook. You still have time to make a big impact here, right?

58:55George Kamel:And if it slows down the debt path by a little bit, that's okay. The baby's still a blessing. And if it takes you five years instead of 4.6, we're going to still call that a win. Okay. Yeah. It's like you and like however many people are listening know, but nobody else knows. Well, I won't tell anybody if you don't. Secret safe here. You guys are on the right track with the 747. That's margin just from your normal jobs. and then with you doing all this extra side work. And I'm guessing your husband's doing some side work too, right? Yeah, we don't see each other. It's one's in with the baby and he's out to go do something.

59:35And what do those side hustles combined bring in? Last month we brought in$1 ,900. See, and again, I point to this call again, Elizabeth, because you guys are doing exactly what we tell people to do, which is you can increase your income. $2 ,000 is fabulous. And if you add that to the 747, this is how it's done. And so now it's all about taking the number that you're out and running it backwards and saying, okay, if we continue to chunk this at the next series of debts, and then once those are freed up, that money adds to the snowball. Before you know it, your snowball is going to be at like$4 ,000 or$5 ,000.

1:00:14Am I wrong or am I right? No, you're right. Yeah.

1:00:18George Kamel:And it's okay. If you pause the debt snowball for a little bit to stack up cash until the baby is here and healthy and safe, that's okay. I know it hurts because you're seeing the interest go up after you've been trying to knock it all down. But right now you're in a, you're in just that sort of storm stork mode. Yeah. And you want to learn from last time, because it sounds like last time you guys didn't have that emergency fund there, that stork mode fund, and you got hit with some medical bills. So this time I would be stacking up at least your deductible, your out-of-pocket max is what I would shoot for, it might be a thousand bucks a month for the next eight months and we're not going to do extra payments on the debts.

1:00:52George Kamel:But at least then you've got, you know, nine, 10 grand right there to protect you until you guys are home safe. And then if everything's great, just hit play and apply that nine extra grand towards your debts. Okay. So it's a temporary setback as far as your debt payoff journey. And then are you guys going to move anyways so that family can help take care of the kids and you continue working? Our original plan was to move once we were completely out of debt and I was hoping to have that done in three years and four years and I'm thinking if we move now well not now we can't afford it now that's insane well and you need jobs right or are your jobs remote he's at high in high school so yeah no we would need jobs so there's a couple of the game plan for child care what are you thinking um he would the baby would have to go to daycare because we can't afford not to both work, but it's just figuring out what to do because daycare is going to be$16 ,000 to$2 ,000.

1:01:53Yeah. For both kids?

1:01:55George Kamel:Or one? Because you've got a four-month-old too, right? That'd be, you know, his daycare, I am very blessed. His daycare is only$800. Good. Okay, wonderful. But then due to some complications, formula is$400 a month. Oh, wow. Wow. When will that budget line item end? When he's a year. Okay. So what you could do, if you were to move, let me just get the facts here. If you were to move, would you have a family member that would watch them instead? Or that's still not an option? I think so, but I don't have that 100 % nail down. I know in the past that our friends have, not friends, our family had said that they would babysit if we moved back.

1:02:40I would check into that. I would check in to see if that offer is still good because if it is, then that might motivate me to start the job hunt back in Minnesota and see what's good over there. Either way, I think you guys, this is an emotional time, but I think if you just take it one day at a time and take it one baby step at a time, I think that you guys are going to work your way through this. And it sounds like a lot right now, but each day that pressure is going to relieve just a little bit every time you take a step in the next right direction. Thank you.

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1:04:48George Kamel:I can't believe it. The 2027 Ramsey Gold Planner is here and now available at the lowest price. We'll offer$35.97. Wow. Not even$36. For a limited time only. For a limited time. time only, George. Well, they up it as time goes on, as we get closer to the new year. So this planner is more practical than ever before. We got brand new content from Jade Warshaw, right here next to me, Rachel Cruz, Dr. John Deloney, plus goal-setting guidance and clear action steps to keep your momentum going all year long. I'm excited. And you did some new content for this as well. I did. Every year we do new content in it, so it's really good.

1:05:20And like George said, don't wait. You want to grab it by August 23rd, because that's when the$35.97 price goes away.

1:05:27George Kamel:So don't be mad on the August 24th. Don't come at me. Yeah, and if you think, oh, just wait for Black Friday, don't wait, because no price is going to beat the price today. $35.97, a very precise price. So get yours today at ramsysolutions.com slash store, or if you're watching on YouTube or podcast, just click that link in the description. I need a copy of that. Can you sneak me one, or do I got to pay two? I have one. They're hard to get your hands on. I know. They don't just give them out willy-nilly around here. I'm not giving you mine, George. I got to pony up the cash. Matt is in Chicago up next.

1:05:57George Kamel:What's going on, Matt? uh hi guys i'm just curious for the last six months i've been working about seven days a week 12 hours a day um to pay off about 72 000 in debt wow how far have you gotten i'm done i uh i got my debt paid off i got my emergency fund and i got a costa rica trip planned for next year that's already paid off that's what i'm talking about hold on a second i just i gotta bust in and say this really quick because this again matt you're doing the thing i matt just let me take a quick second to say this uh i saw some people on social media who were bashing some of our content saying you can't do it you can't pay off debt you can't buy a house you can't save up and look at matt He just worked really hard for, you know, 12-hour days, and he paid off$72 ,000 of debt.

1:06:54Stop telling me folks can't do this. People do it every day. Way to go, Matt. Keep going. All right. So, basically, well, about the house part, that's, I guess, part of my question. So, my fiance is an amazing woman. She's been supportive of me through all of this. I mean, she also works, too. so um basically i want to kind of keep going and pay off my house early by the time i'm 40 i'm 37 almost 30 38 right now and uh i kind of made a deal with it that i'd take saturdays off but i'd still be working an insane amount of hours um but i i really want to get my house paid off by the time i'm 40 i want to be 100 percent okay and this is still 12 hour days 12 hour days just taking one day off.

1:07:40George Kamel:Yeah, but I mean... You slacker. Come on, Matt. Well, right now, too, is like the overtime's here. I don't know 100 % if the overtime's going to stay around. Who knows if another COVID happens or anything like that. I mean, do you really think you can sustain that, though? 12-hour days, six days a week for three years? Is that sustainable? I'm a beast. Yeah, I could do it. When are you guys getting married? So, actually, we're coming to Tennessee and it's supposed to be uh january supposed to be well like do you have a date or are you just gonna roll up to the it's gonna be it's gonna be the end of january we just haven't finalized everything with like the venue what exact date it's gonna be yet but it's like the last week of january okay wonderful because i'm just thinking through this then you're gonna have two incomes right which is gonna speed up the process which might mean you can then slow down that's what i'm thinking too you guys are gonna hate that part of it anyways because she lives with me we already do that we So that part you guys don't like.

1:08:37George Kamel:So she's helping you pay off your mortgage. She is. Yes, she's paying bills. So, yeah, I know. She makes about$2 ,800 a month take home. That's what she brings home. So she's pretty much paying the mortgage. I'm paying everything else. I bring home about$95 base. But with all this overtime, I'm projected to hit around$200 ,000 this year. And I want to kind of keep it going. Let me just throw this out here. Let me just throw this out here because it has to be said. So I will say this. I mean, obviously, if you ask us Ramsey opinion, we're going to say, hey, if you guys are not married yet, you should not combine your monies in this way.

1:09:18It's just an invitation for disaster. But if you are, like if you're going to just be like, hey, that's just not my way of thinking. I am going to move in with this person and we are going to combine money. At the very least, can you at least just sign a cohabitation agreement and something that's going to protect both of you in case something were to happen? Please just do something like that so that there's some legality to this and so that nobody gets burned if for some reason something should happen and you should go your separate ways. I'm just going to throw that out there for anybody listening.

1:09:49It's important to protect yourself if you're going to do something that is somewhat financially reckless. Fair enough? Yeah, I understand that part, too. and like the house is only in my name. So, I mean, I guess that part's kind of... I know, but if you were to go separate ways and she's put all of this money onto your mortgage that's in your name, that's at a detriment to her. So she needs to have something in writing that would say, hey, I get this money back or whatever that case. Protect yourselves if you guys are going to do this outside of the law. Put some law around you is what I'm saying.

1:10:23Yeah, agreed. I guess her part of that is$28 ,000 of that debt I paid off was hers. So it's like kind of a trade-off. But for both, that's what I'm saying, for both of you, because you guys are doing this in such a crazy fashion, you're making headway. Like, I don't want to take away from the fact that you're paying off debt, but the way that you're doing it is in a reckless fashion. No, 100%. I know how you guys feel about that.

1:10:46George Kamel:Yeah. So here's what we teach, and here's the way I live my life. Once you get out of baby step three, you're moving from intensity to intentionality. And I'm like you, Matt. I paid off my house. We did it in 26 months. The goal was four years. We were crazy. My wife and I both were like, let's just go for it. And we had both a very aligned vision for that. But it was a pretty small mortgage at the time. We put like almost 50 percent down. And so there wasn't much to go. And it didn't crush our life. I was not working 80 hours a week. I don't even know if I was doing side hustles at the time. So it was a pretty low stakes way to live.

1:11:20George Kamel:I'm worried that you're going to burn out or at least she's going to get burnt out on you never being home. And so I think there is a happy medium here of you working a reasonable amount going, all right, my goal is three years. If it takes four or five, it's going to be okay. I don't need to work Saturdays and Sundays and work till 9 p.m. every day. Like I know you're capable of that. It's not a sustainable thing to do for the next three years on top of what you've already done. Yeah, it is going to cost you something. Whether it's your physical health, mental health, your relationship. Yeah, she's on the same page as you.

1:11:54She wants to spend more time and stuff. That's why I was trying to take the Saturdays off and everything. And we still do trips and vacations and everything like that. I just really wanted to get this done. Now, I do think that you should be really intentional about putting extra towards a mortgage. I don't think any of us are saying by any means not to have that as a very clear goal. But we're just saying the speed can slow down a little bit because you will have a new marriage. And that requires a lot of time and intentionality as well.

1:12:22George Kamel:And you guys will both make more money over time. so you might end up hitting the goal even if you slow down. That's what I found happens. If you guys are aligned from the get-go with this marriage, you're going to hit the goal if you set it. And so I would definitely slow down if I were in your shoes because we care about you, she cares about you. And you've got time. Yeah, this is a self-imposed goal. They're like, I'm just, man, I want to do it. It's okay if it happens at 41. No one's mad at you. Yeah, I guess that's a comparison is a thief-of-joey type deal. I hear some of these people that are younger than me having all this stuff done.

1:12:53George Kamel:And so I just really want to be done. And there's people older than you that wish they were where you're at. And so it's always a good reminder. There's an old Craig Groeschel quote. Pastor Craig says this, Jade. It's something to the—and I'm going to butcher it, so I apologize. I know what you're going for. Comparison will either make you feel inferior or superior, and neither honors God. Something to that effect. I think that you're pretty—I think that's right. Like either, well, I'm better than them because I compared, or I'm not as good as because I compared. And, you know, whether you're a person or faith or not, it's just unhealthy.

1:13:23Yeah, I think that's right.

1:13:24George Kamel:And so it's a good reminder that no one is setting this goal but you. And it's great to be better than you were yesterday and beat your personal best. But don't do it in a way that causes you to become a workaholic or unhealthy and unbalanced. Yeah. And it's the same. I mean, we've we've hit on this a couple of times already. This this show about making sure to make that shift from intentional from intensity to intense. Boy, say it for me. from intensity to intention. Thank you. My goodness gracious. But you know, there are some times where people call in and they've just, they've never been in debt or they never really had to go through baby step two.

1:14:01And those people, if they want to crush it through their house, that doesn't really bother me because they didn't have that time period where they spent, you know, months or years in a slog. And so if you want to do that, that doesn't really bother me too much.

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1:16:12George Kamel:Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that is built and trained on proven Ramsey principles. And today we're going to break down one of the questions we received this week. Here it is. I'm debt free, have a fully funded emergency fund, and I'm saving for a down payment on a house. I do need to purchase a new car. Can I use my emergency fund for that? Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, we would advise you against using your emergency fund to pay for a brand new car. And we would say to just start a sinking fund instead. you can set aside a monthly amount until you have enough to pay cash for that car because you never want to raid your emergency fund for a planned purchase because then you're unprotected when a real emergency hits yeah here's the three questions to ask is this urgent is this necessary is it unexpected and the truth is this is none of those things so don't use your emergency fund use money outside of that and get the car you can afford and then upgrade with cash over time so check out Ask Ramsey.

1:17:07George Kamel:It'll walk you through your financial goals based on your specific situation. You can input all of your numbers and it's going to give you somehow better advice than you would get on this show. I know that you may not think it's possible, but it will do it. So get your question answered today, RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're on podcast or YouTube. Diane is in Cleveland up next. Diane, welcome to the show. Thank you. I have a bit of a conundrum. My husband, after 23 years of marriage, is divorcing me, and I need to know how to start over. He was always the breadwinner, and now I'm left in my 50s starting over financially and don't really know what that's going to look like.

1:17:55So I just am calling in for help about, you know we've we don't have any debt our cars are paid off and um and we have a big nest egg but now the the attorneys are fighting over this and so i don't know i'm so sorry diane

1:18:13George Kamel:so we're already at that stage we're at the attorney's fighting stage of this thing yes and it just started in april and he filed and i don't even know for what though so yeah So you don't know what happened? It was just random? Well, there's, you know, people that aren't in the marriage, and I confronted it, and, you know, and now we started counseling at a Christian counselor, and that didn't go anywhere. And so now he filed, and so 23 years later, here we are, you know, and I have to think, what am I going to do with my life? I have a master's degree, but I wasn't using it. What was your master's in?

1:18:57It's in design. I'm an art educator. And so, you know, now I've always been supporting his corporate job, him climbing the ladder and, you know, with bonuses and everything else. So now, you know, way over six figures. So here we are. Well, the good news is there's no debt, which is a good thing. and you said there's a big nest egg. How much is the nest egg? $160 ,000.

1:19:26George Kamel:Okay. Do you guys have kids? No, we never, you know, he didn't want that. So, you know. $160 ,000 is in retirement? No, it's just in, it's just there. Retirement is well over, you know, millions. Okay. So$160 ,000 liquid. And tell us how much is in retirement. Do you know? I don't. He put it in an affidavit and I didn't know that was even what I didn't even know that we had that. So now it's a matter of like everybody's like discovery. And I'm like, what is that? You know, putting all the cards on the table. Yeah. So everybody, by the time this is finished, you're going to know every dime of what's out there, which is a good thing.

1:20:11And you're probably going to be shocked by a lot. But it sounds like I mean, it's it's a little different for every state. But like I said, the good news is there's no debt. And hopefully you're entitled to half of everything that's going on here. At least that's what I'd be fighting for.

1:20:25George Kamel:And potentially some alimony. Yeah, but I want to move. He's not saying much. And that's what I called in. I was like, my attorney's like saying, you know, you owe me this, but I haven't heard anything. I don't know what, I don't know the process. I don't know the steps. I've never been married before. I've never been divorced. Sure. Did your attorney come recommended or is it just somebody that you selected? Yeah, it's just somebody I selected. Okay. It might be time to start talking with friends and family and people in your community about a good divorce attorney. And if you don't like the one you have, you can fire them and move on to someone else because it sounds like you want more of an understanding of what's taking place.

1:21:10And I could understand that. and that's I feel very in the dark and they just say I forwarded an email here's another I want another five thousand dollars yeah I mean yeah you're gonna pay for every phone call every text every email and so if you don't feel like you're getting the information just a basic level of communication then you don't have to continue on with that person they work for you and so you want to make sure that you know what's going on at all times I'm getting bullied a little bit and it's

1:21:40George Kamel:Is he still living at the house? No, I'm the only one living there. I don't even know where he is at this point. He's disappeared in April. Okay, and are you making payments for all the bills? That's what the attorney agreed to, but I don't have a job. Do you have a bank account or access to one? We have a joint, and I moved so that I could have retirement money because I want to move to Florida because I need to get away from that situation. Okay. So I think the fair thing for you to do right now is I wouldn't make any major moves, right? Now's not the time to move to Florida. Now's not the time to buy another house, right?

1:22:26This still needs to be sorted out. Wait till the dust settles. Yeah. Wait till the dust settles on this. And I think that the two pieces, based on you, based off what I hear and the way you sound, I think you need two things. I think, number one, you need to find somebody who's a good friend who can help you advocate for yourself in this situation. Somebody, if it's somebody from church, if it's someone who's been through this, you just need someone in your corner who can help calm you down, who can be in the meetings with you or help you interpret an email. That goes a really, really long way.

1:23:00And number two, based off what I hear, I don't know, and a good friend or advocate could help you, but I don't know that this lawyer is what you're looking for in terms of you ought to know what's going on in your own case. And if you don't, one of two things is happening. Either they're not communicating well or you're just not in a place where you can hear it and receive it. Yeah. And I'm not sure which is true, to be honest with you. I don't either because I've never had to hire an attorney. So I'm really just kind of at a loss. And, you know, I've always gone with Dave Ramsey people because I know that they always educate you.

1:23:41Well, use the resources you have. If you receive a letter from your attorney, run it through Claude, run it through ChatGBT and say, help me understand this. What does this mean? What's likely coming next? Like, there's a lot of resources out there that can help you understand. And I think that you're just in an emotional state. And it can be hard to just interpret things in your normal way, like the way you used to before all of this happened. Yeah.

1:24:07George Kamel:And if you have this in a mental fog. Yeah. And so do that tonight. Take every single email that you've had, drop it in there and say, what does this mean? Put it in layman's terms. Tell me what's next. What's what are my options? And I think that's going to also give you some peace just to help you sort through this. And you said you've contacted some Ramsey pros. So if you have a SmartVestor pro in your life or a Ramsey trusted agent, I would ask them, say, hey, do you have any attorneys you would recommend in the area who can help me with XYZ? And they have an amazing Rolodex of people they've worked with that they trust that they can recommend.

1:24:40George Kamel:And that's going to be a big help. But we always say that divorce turns a marriage into a business transaction. And so now it becomes, all right, what are all the assets? Who's getting what? And then you guys, the lawyers, the judge is going to decide what's fair. So just know that you're not destitute. You will be okay. And your job now is to figure out what this next chapter for Diane looks like. And maybe it's, wow, I haven't worked in 20 years and now I'm going to go get licensed and be an art educator at a local school in Florida. Who knows what that looks like, but I hope there's some silver lining here and you actually find some newfound freedom because it sounds like this marriage wasn't great for a while.

1:25:16George Kamel:This wasn't super sudden. Yeah, absolutely. And for anybody listening, I mean, it's a cautionary tale, right? We tell folks all the time that in a healthy marriage, there's that transparency. You should know what's going on with the money, what the assets are, what the debt is, what people are earning, all of those numbers. It's so important to be involved and to take a seat at the table so that if the worst happens, you're not left out in the cold and certainly in the dark. Yeah. Being close fisted like that is a huge red flag for any marriage. You want to know exactly what's going on.

1:26:07George Kamel:welcome back to the ramsay show in the fairwinds credit union studio i'm george camel joined by jade warshaw taking your calls at 888-825-5225 andrew is in fort wayne indiana what's going on andrew how can we help hey hey friends so grateful to take your time here i do appreciate it. So I am kind of in a pickle here. I have no money and I have a vehicle that has 278 ,000 miles on it. I've been the one that puts miles on it. I have about$20 ,000 in debt and I'm going to need a new vehicle sooner than later, especially as we start getting to the winter season here. I really don't want to have to go into any more debt.

1:26:52Unfortunately, I just don't have any liquid cash or anything to buy a new vehicle. Is it broken down? Has it stopped on you? So, no. I think the motor in this vehicle is going to outlast the frame, but it is certainly going to be at some point where it is going to jump out of a highway. It is a 2011 Ford Escape. I bought it 10 years ago. I was young and dumb. I just showed up on a car lot. Next thing you knew, I was signing papers, and I bought a way overpriced vehicle, and so I have at least drove the wheels off of it. It's getting pretty close, so. Yeah. I mean, but I mean, what's wrong with it today?

1:27:36Is it just the fact that it's got a lot of miles, and you see the writing on the wall, or is there an actual issue with it other than the miles today? I mean, it's still roadworthy at the moment. uh there's quite a bit of rust in the in some spots where it's like okay you know like i'd lose a tire anytime i hit a bad pothole around here right so you're more just thinking i need to start a sinking fund for a new car sooner than later correct and unfortunately i financially like i just a lot of life has happened over the last year i don't have an emergency fund like i've

1:28:09George Kamel:been unfortunately living paycheck to paycheck what happened over the last 10 years oh so the last 10 years, I had some debt and then I paid it off. In 2020, I bought an affordable house. It's less than a quarter of my take-home pay. And I bought it in 2020 where the interest rates were still good. So that at the moment is probably my best asset. Again, I just don't have anything liquid from that. What's your 20K in debt? uh so some of it is i i just a lot of stupid so i got a home equity line of credit to pay off a medical debt and the only reason i got the extra money was to negotiate with the uh the hospital or excuse me with the the medical stuff and it turns out that they don't charge your interest on that stuff so now i'm paying interest and uh variable interest and it's tied to your house And the whole$20 ,000 is the HELOC?

1:29:09So right now, I pulled out$20 ,000 from the home equity line of credit. $10 ,000 of that was going to be for a vehicle. But having that$10 ,000 that I was paying interest on my own money, even though I was borrowing it on the bank, I just put that all right back onto the debt on the HELOC. And then the other$10 ,000 went for it. I'm confused.

1:29:35George Kamel:Where did it go? What magic trick did you do? So wait, you took$20 ,000. What did you use the$10 ,000 on? So, yeah, I went to my bank. I pulled out a home equity line of credit to pay for a vehicle for when that time came. And then I took the$10 ,000 extra grand to negotiate with the hospital bill. So that$10 ,000 is gone. Where did the other$10 ,000 go? I put it back towards the HELOC. So now what do you owe? That currently, I only owe about$3 ,000 left. Oh, okay, good. Well, you told me you had$20 ,000 in debt. So$3 ,000 in debt. Yes, no, no, that was just the first one. Got it. Time is of the essence, so break it down just quick.

1:30:19Yeah, just tell us what you have today. Don't tell us the backstory just yet. Yeah, no, so I owe my aunt$8 ,000, and then another one is, like, I'm$600 behind in my gas bill, and then another$800 on my water bill. Okay. $800 behind on water,$600 behind on gas. Okay. Tell us about your income because something is happening there with your income that's causing these problems. So what kind of work do you do and what do you earn? I have a niche industry job, so I'm a professional silkscreen printer. I will be making probably about$46 ,000 this year. You have your own setup? Nope. I work for a shop.

1:31:04Okay. How many hours a week do you work? So I have unlimited overtime technically that I can get, but I've been doing about 43 to 44 hours, so not a whole lot of overtime. And with the overtime, that puts you at 46? No, that's base pay.

1:31:24George Kamel:Okay. So 46 plus you can make overtime. And are you living alone? Yep. What's your mortgage payment? So my mortgage right now is at$515. $515 or$515? That's it? Yes, sorry,$515. Okay, that's great. And what do you take home from the 46 plus overtime? What's an average month look like for you? So average weekly, I take up about$2 ,800. Okay,$2 ,800. We know$515 is going to rent. What's your other major expense? because you don't have a car payment and it's just you eating. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Are you making payments to the aunt or is this just sitting out there? No, that's unfortunately just sitting out there.

1:32:13Like, I have so many, like, with the gas and the water, it's just been... Yeah, why haven't you been able to keep up with those bills? Yeah, what caused you to get behind something? So I was unemployed for a few months last year. then I had a leak with the water and all that stuff just kind of went to the wayside. Let me go back to today. So if I take your$2 ,800 and I subtract$515, now I've got$2 ,285. And let's say, what do you spend on groceries? Let's say you're going bare bones. Let's say you do$400 on groceries. You don't have a car payment. Can you reach over today and get current on the gas?

1:32:56Yes, I certainly could. But then the problem is like, my concern is like, because next week, I will like, I'm not behind on my mortgage, but like, I still have to pay my mortgage at this. No, no, no, I already I already could. Let's let's pretend a clean month. Let's say you make$2 ,800 a month. And if I make$2 ,800 a month, I pay my rent, that's 515. Now I have$2 ,285. I'm going to go ahead and pay. Let's pretend can we pay$400 for groceries? Now I've got$1 ,885. Now let's say, you know what, I'm going to pay the minimum that I can to keep my water on. Let's find out how much that is. How much can you pay minimum to keep the water on?

1:33:37Probably about$130. Okay, so I'll pay$130 there. And then I'll say, I really want to get the gas current. So that's$600. And now I've still got $1 ,155 to go. You don't have a car payment. You don't have kids in daycare. Maybe you have a cell phone. I hope it's Boost Mobile and you're only paying like 30 bucks a month. Do you see what I'm saying? So what else is there that we're forgetting about? What I think is that you don't have a budget and I think that you're doing some reckless spending and living for the moment. That's what I think. I am guilty as charged.

1:34:10George Kamel:Okay. Well, you open the call, Andrew, saying, hey, I've been doing stupid things. It's fine to do that and then learn from it, but it's been a decade of stupid. So you got to decide, Andrew, two years from now, where does he want to be? financing a car, keeping up the cycle of payments or finally breaking free going, you know what? I got to go make some money. I got to go do some overtime, get rid of this debt, never go into debt again, get an emergency fund, pay cash for a car and build some serious wealth. You got to decide, man. It's up to you.

1:34:55Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now, you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com.

1:35:44George Kamel:we want to hear from you guys so jump in the comments on youtube or spotify and tell us what you're connecting uh with on today's show maybe you have thoughts maybe you would have told the call or something different we want to hear about it in the comments our team enjoys seeing all of those. Appreciate that. All right, Jade, one of the biggest mistakes people make is they think they can just skip having a will because, well, I'm too young. I'm healthy. I don't own enough. I'll never die. Whatever it is, you're wrong. A will helps protect your family and every single person needs one. It gives clear instructions and keeps your loved ones from having to guess what you wanted during a difficult time or even worse, having the government decide for you.

1:36:21George Kamel:So if you're ready to create a will and you are, go to mamabearlegalforums.com. That's It's mamabearlegal.com. I apologize. And if you're not sure where to start, you can text the word quiz to this number, 33789, and we will help you figure out which option fits your situation. Chris is in Sacramento up next. Chris, welcome to the show. Hey, how y 'all doing? We're doing great. How can we help today? All right. So we got a situation. I want to buy a boat and my wife does not want to buy a boat. Oh, no. Okay. What a conundrum. A little background, right? So no debt other than the mortgage. Okay.

1:37:02George Kamel:We're making extra mortgage payment every month. So our mortgage is$3 ,900 a month. We pay$5 ,200 a month. Good. We bought a year and a half ago after we got out of all our credit card debt and everything. And, yeah, it's just a grind. So we do house projects, save up, right, and all that. So, you know, I see that we could buy a used boat, you know, not a new one. How much money do you guys have saved for this? Well, none yet. It's in the conversations, right? So we're finishing up a backyard project that, you know, is about like$25 ,000, right? Okay. With not too many projects in the future. So the backyard project, was that a project that you both wanted to do, the$25 ,000 on the backyard, or was that more her bag?

1:37:55George Kamel:no no we it needed it drainage was bad all that right water into the house so i mean it's definitely and you know we ripping up the yard we said hey let's make it nice right so we're okay what about the boat is that something that you'll both get enjoyment out of or is it just something that's really something you want is it more of a wants thing or is it a money thing uh well so i definitely want one uh it would be a bass boat a fishing boat she enjoys being out in the water with me and goes fishing from time to time but uh it would definitely be more like my thing you know okay and how much would it cost uh we're looking at like 10 to 12 000 you know a decent used boat to get us through you know five, 10 years, and then look at a real nice dreamboat later on, you know?

1:38:47And in her mind, spending that 10, 12, like what's the opportunity cost? What does she feel like you guys are giving up on by spending that 10 to 12 grand or saving that up over time? I think ultimately we're being pretty aggressive towards the mortgage, and she wants to pay off the house.

1:39:02George Kamel:So I think, you know, I don't want to speak for it, but I think at the end of the day, most of it is she thinks and feels that that money could go towards the mortgage. Okay. I would, if I were in your shoes, I would double check that and make sure that that's how she feels instead of guessing. I'd want to know, hey, where do you see us spending this money instead? Is it a vacation that you wish we were taking? Is it going to the house? Like really get clarity on what the issue is with her on that? Because that's the only way you guys are going to arrive at how this money is actually being spent.

1:39:32I mean, for my two cents, I think it's great that you guys are making an extra payment on the house. I think that's a really fair place to be in baby step six is, you know, doubling the payment. I mean, I think that's pretty fabulous.

1:39:45George Kamel:Yeah. So 10 to 12 for the boat. She just feels like that's a waste of money from what I gather that could be going towards the mortgage. What's the ongoing cost of this? The ongoing cost of a boat, like maintenance and whatnot? Yeah. Do you have something to haul it? Because that's where I go. Well, now I need a truck, babe. but I got to haul the boat. And now I need to have the gas and all that. So what's your, do you have a full plan for how this is all going to shake down? So I still got to get a quote for insurance. The boat insurance is the number I don't have, but you know, maintenance is relatively easy, especially since I do a lot of it myself.

1:40:20George Kamel:We have a Toyota Tacoma with 280 ,000 miles on it. Right. So that thing will, I think I'll run forever. Ideally, you know, so we do need to factor into the budget a little bit more. I would start a sinking fund for that truck while I'm at it. As much as it'll keep going, there'll be a day where it doesn't. And you're going to be like, oh, I got to finance a truck now. So as long as you guys are saying no to debt, then the total value of all the things with motors and wheels is no more than half your annual income. You're in good shape as far as the checkboxes here. So the alignment with the spouse is the final piece.

1:40:52George Kamel:What is your household income? We're around$200. Awesome. What's the total value of the vehicles? Uh, it's just that Toyota Tacoma. So eight, eight or 10 ,000. Oh, it's your only vehicle. Uh, we are both very lucky, uh, with our jobs, uh, and company vehicles. Um, so we literally only have that Toyota Tacoma under our name. So you drive other cars, but you don't have it. Yeah. Yeah. I just sold my, my Toyota RAV4 because we just weren't using it. You know what I mean? So. I mean, unless she's looking at the upkeep of this and thinking, I don't like how this is going to affect our month to month budget.

1:41:32And again, I would run out those numbers and make sure you're talking about that. But other than that, I mean, financially, I don't see why you can't save up and do this, especially if you're doing a reasonable amount.

1:41:42George Kamel:If this is your hobby, this is where you want to spend your time and some money and it's in the budget. I would make a fake budget saying, hey, here's what life looks like when we have a boat and then see and try to get alignment on what's what's the root of this? Why doesn't she want this to happen versus just trying to convince her? I think that's where we need to start talking to each other instead of missing each other. But good luck, man. Brett is in Cleveland up next. What's going on, Brett? Hey, Jaden George. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can we help? Yeah, I just had a question.

1:42:13So Lord willing, next month, my wife and I will be debt free and we'll move into baby steps four, five and six. Love that. We're really excited. We're excited about that. My question for you today is a couple of years ago, a relative, when they passed, gave us three gold coins, one ounce each. And so we've had those, of course, gold going up in price. Should we sell the coins, which would basically give us our three month emergency fund? Or would you hang on to the gold since, you know, it could go up? I know it could go down, too. So just want to get your thoughts on that.

1:42:49George Kamel:Well, we are not fans of precious metals around here as an investment. So when you say, well, it could go up, that tells me we're sort of hoping and speculating it could go up. And gold, out of all the things you could have, it's not crypto, right? We know that gold is going to hold some value. It will always be there. But I personally would be selling that thing instead of sacrificing for three more months or six more months or however long it would take you to get through Baby Step 3. Could you get what? I don't know what an ounce of gold is going for today. How much could you get for all three?

1:43:20It's at like$4 ,200 a day.

1:43:22George Kamel:Okay. So at the beginning, we get that$4 ,000, then it's at$4 ,200 a day, which I think is great. Yeah. That'd be amazing. I mean, if you were like, hey, dude, I'll write you a check for$12 ,000 that could fund an emergency fund today instead of you having to continue to sacrifice, I'm personally taking it, and I'm not going to miss out on what could have been. I would just don't check gold prices after you sell it. That's what most people do. They go, oh, man, it's$4 ,500 now. Now you're driving yourself crazy looking at what could have been. Right, right. Okay, well, that's, yeah. Yeah, and I thought we'd just put it in the Fairwinds account with the 3 % interest.

1:43:56Then you're always kind of gaining money.

1:43:58George Kamel:Yeah, you're at least keeping up with inflation. And I don't use gold as an investment. I just invest into the stock market. And over time, the stock market is at a higher return than gold. Gold has averaged about 7.8 % a year since 1971, where it stopped being tied to the dollar, which is not a bad return. But you can do better with less stress in the stock market, and there's a little less risk since it's not a physical thing you're trying to keep safe. Okay, good. That's what we were going to do. I just wanted to make sure I was thinking about it right. So thank you guys very much. Absolutely.

1:44:30George Kamel:And there'll be egg on my face if there's an apocalypse where we only barter in gold one day, Jade. Who knows? I'm thinking like spoons and forks will probably be more. Yeah, I'm thinking ammo, fuel. Water. Yeah, weapons, water. That's going to be useful. Shelter. Yeah, I've seen enough post-apocalyptic movies. I've never seen them go, Well, bro, I got some gold. Listen, a fighting style. You better start brushing up on your... I do need to go to... Jiu-jitsu. Is that what's hot right now? Jiu-jitsu? Yeah. I think if you're into like MMA... Yeah, you lost me there. If I get kicked in the face, this is the money maker.

1:45:04George Kamel:All right, I can't afford that. Can't risk it.

1:45:36George Kamel:Hey guys, George Camel here. You ever feel like you make good money and still have nothing to show for it? You run into Target for one thing and somehow walk out$87 later with toothpaste and emotional support candles? Just me? Okay. Well, that's the problem. Most people don't pay attention to how they spend their money, so it does whatever it wants. And that's why we created EveryDollar. It's a budgeting app that helps you create a simple plan for your money. EveryDollar is simple, it's clear, and it helps track where your money's actually going. Plus, you get daily lessons, to-dos, and reminders along the way.

1:46:05George Kamel:It's like having a money coach in your pocket. Your money's been freelancing long enough. It's time to give EveryDollar a full-time job. Go download EveryDollar for free on the App Store or Google Play.

1:46:28George Kamel:If your private student loans are in default, when you've fallen so far behind the loan is considered unpaid, Y-Refi may be able to help. Y-Refi helps borrowers in tough situations explore low fixed rate refinancing options that fit your budget. Go to YRefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. May not be available in all states. All right. Today's question comes from Glenn in Pennsylvania. He says, what are your thoughts on cell phone plans where big companies lure you in for years to pay off? My wife and I never really thought about the monthly cost of paying off our cell phones.

1:47:05We just paid the monthly amount. This month we got our monthly bill and we're surprised at the new amount due to our phones being paid off. It's drastically lower than our normal monthly bill. Should we start saving now to purchase our phones outright the next time around? Short answer is yes. And Glenn, I love this question because this happened to me. I didn't even realize.

1:47:27George Kamel:They're sneaky these days. They're sneaky. I didn't even realize that our phones were not paid off. We had been out of debt and I'm like, woohoo, debt free. And then one day, you know, randomly I see the bill and it's a lot less. I'm like, what happened? and then I realized we were paying, still paying for our phones. I didn't even know that. So you're not alone on that. And yes, from now on, just whenever you go to upgrade your phone, hopefully it's not an Android, but whenever you go to upgrade your iPhone, you just pay cash for it and let that be that on that. But I did hear something, George, you'd probably be in the know on this.

1:48:00I feel like I heard that Apple is about to do away with that and you're just always like leasing your phone. You lease the phone.

1:48:07George Kamel:Literally, they're calling it a lease. And so you have to make the payments and then if you want at the end you have to pay the remaining balance that's left for that device whether it's a laptop a phone whatever it is or you can hand it back to apple and restart the process man i've seen everything at this point so it is brutal so yes if you got a payment plan on a depreciating asset it is a type of debt because you have to pay that otherwise it's not your phone until it's paid off yes so to me that is a form of debt you can get sent to collections for these kinds of things so i would definitely set up a sinking fund and pay cash for your new phones.

1:48:38George Kamel:And just like a car, just try to get something that's going to last you a couple of years at least. And don't upgrade every year. Because listen, the 16 is really no better than the 15. It's really not. I couldn't even tell you what phone I have. And I agree with you so much, George, especially if you're in Baby Step 2. Just get whatever you can that makes the phone calls, that sends the text message. And on your service, go as cheaply as you can because there's a lot of money to be had there. I meet people in the lobby and it's my favorite when I see a single lens on the back of that iPhone. I'm like, oh, they're a real one.

1:49:08George Kamel:I know that's right. Hanging on to that iPhone 4. Let's go. You know what? I could really go back to a flip phone. I really could. I could be the person who has a flip phone that all it does is send phone calls and text messages. You know, Rachel Cruz's husband, Winston, did that. He's got a dumb phone. He likes it? The man is at peace. You know what? Sign me up. Like birds flock to him. You know what I mean? Like owls land on his shoulder. He is like one with nature now. I'm going to try it. Without a smartphone. phone. I don't know if I could survive it. I need to be Googling at all times, so I wouldn't survive long in the wilderness.

1:49:41I think I take offense that people are calling them dumb phones.

1:49:44George Kamel:Well, smartphones. Because isn't it really the smarter way, George? Yeah, but it's the opposite of smart, and it's a funny name. So just go with it, Jade. Don't ruin it. All right, Jennifer's in Phoenix up next. What's going on, Jennifer? Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. I have a question regarding my 16 year old who's going to be 17 in about a month. So he is in his junior year of high school. He's a huge Dave Ramsey fan. He took financial literacy. They all have to take financial literacy their sophomore year and their curriculum is based off of Ramsey. And so he has become a huge fan of investing and compound interest.

1:50:30And now we listen to it in the car all the time. And you're super annoyed or? Yeah, I mean, I'm learning a lot. So everybody's a huge fan. They love my husband and my boys both love when Dave laughs at his own jokes or flips out on people for their bad decisions. So it's a good time. We love it too. That's so funny. So what's the conundrum? Great road trips. So he's been playing baseball since about eight years old. He just had his best season yet. He plays club year round and high school ball in the spring. And since he's done financial literacy, he's thinking that he's not confident that he's going to play baseball in college.

1:51:20so he's thinking that he should quit baseball and start a part-time job and start earning money and investing and getting that compound interest to set himself up for the future.

1:51:38George Kamel:Okay, so if you sat down with him and said, why do you want to quit? He would say, I don't think I'm going to finish doing this in college and I'd rather be working to start investing. Right. Okay. And you want him to finish. Why? Why do you want him to stick through it through the end of high school? So, I mean, you only get this much time in childhood, right? And then you're an adult and you have all the responsibilities. So it's not that we're not supporting him. Like he has some really great points. He was a little he talked to me before he talked to his dad because he was a little nervous about dad.

1:52:11And I said, I love all of your points. And I said, now let's just really think about it. So we support him either way. We just are curious if we should squash the idea and say, enjoy your childhood, play baseball. It's only going to be here for a few years and then think about investing. Or if we should support him in his idea to quit and start investing now.

1:52:39George Kamel:Are you guys doing well financially? grow up um yeah we're we're we're ramseying it but yes we are like are do you have any debt yeah we do okay i'm just wondering if there's a if he's all about investing is there a way you can help him with that and go hey you know what we're gonna match whatever you put in or hey we're gonna put in a thousand bucks this summer for you to get started investing but we want you to keep playing baseball what would he say i think he would consider it he also has told us like it feels a little bit more like a chore now well that's what i'm saying you're because you're positing it as man his childhood i'm like baseball at 17 is work i mean you're showing up to practice you're showing up to every game is he good at baseball or is he not good he's good i don't know if he's college level good, but he's good.

1:53:32But I mean, he plays in the game. He's not just sitting on the bench. He plays. Yeah, he was in the top three stats of every single stat his coach shared. And was he complaining about baseball before he started learning all of this? And so this was coming either way? Or do you really feel like, do you really feel like this kind of came out of the blue just because he learned about the compounding interest? I know. he's always kind of had a love-hate relationship with it, but more love. He loves the social aspect of baseball. He loves the, like, camaraderie that it builds, but it's always been kind of a love-hate relationship, probably because we live in Arizona and it's really hot.

1:54:19Yeah.

1:54:20George Kamel:I mean, he can get camaraderie at work with coworkers at the old ice cream shop. So here's my take. I'm going to just say it. You can take it or leave it. I don't want him to resent you for making him play. I'd rather him, on his own volition, regret turning baseball down to go work. And the truth is, I don't think he's going to regret it. I think he's going to go get a job and go, wow, I feel like I'm stepping into adulthood and there's responsibility here. There's discipline. You've got to show up and it's going to prepare him for the future more than baseball, Will, at this point. I think I disagree.

1:54:51I think I have a conflicting view.

1:54:54George Kamel:Jade's forcing him to get out there on the field. If he's played, if he's played all of these years and you don't feel like this was coming down the road, I actually think that I would say, I think there's a world where he can do both, where he can play the season of baseball and finish out with his team. And then I think there's a world where when he's not, you know, in baseball training or in the season that he can work. And I think that there's something that comes from team sports that's very different than what he would get, you know, working at the grocery store or working at wherever he's working.

1:55:26And I think if he can get the best of both worlds, I think that really can create some well-roundedness. Team sports are really important, not because of going pro or because of getting a college scholarship, but just what they build on the inside of you. And part of that is, you know, sticking to a task. So I think that there's something there. I don't think either is the wrong choice I just think that you got two different views this time

1:55:50George Kamel:I like letting him own the decision either way to let him feel like alright I'm an adult I gotta make peace with the decision I made good and bad

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1:57:10George Kamel:Our scripture of the day, Psalm 1-3. They are like trees planted along the riverbank, bearing fruit each season. Their leaves never wither, and they prosper in all they do. Peter Marshall said, When we long for life without difficulties, remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary winds, and diamonds are made under pressure. boom under pressure Thomas is in San Antonio California I didn't know there was I'm learning a lot today what's going on Thomas good thank you happy to be here how are y 'all doing we're doing great how can we help today yeah so my wife is I'm very blessed she put her life on hold her CrossFit athlete career on hold to put me through law school debt free awesome Yes.

1:58:01And I'm graduating here soon with a great offer. And, but we have a net worth pretty much of zero right now. And so she's, I want her to go back and pursue that CrossFit career that I think she can attain. But she is a big fan of Ramsey and she wants us to get to, you know, step five at a down payment. And so am I being irresponsible?

1:58:29George Kamel:You guys don't have an emergency fund yet? No, we do not. And you're not investing and you are renting? We skimped it with in-laws during law school. Okay, but you're renting on your own now? As soon as I graduate, we will be renting. Got it. Okay. And so you are trying to get her to chase these dreams, but that would require her to not work? for a season? Yes. Okay, what does that look like? I don't know the CrossFit world. I don't know if that's a shock looking at me. So explain to me what this track looks like. You know, she's already top 2 ,000 in the world, and that's like top 1%. But, you know, to get within the top 0.01%, that's a full-time job working out all day.

1:59:20So she's training as an athlete, not as a coach. Yes, as an athlete.

1:59:25George Kamel:And she would enter into competitions and potentially get money from that and sponsorships? How does the income stream work? Yes, exactly. I don't even care if it's an income stream for us. I have a good offer that we will live off of just fine. I just wanted to pay her back for sacrificing. So you're saying we can live on my income, and she's saying, well, I'd like to live in a house first instead of the in-laws. So let's get there before we start this dream. What is she doing now for work? She's a PT tech technician. How much of it is, how much of this is your personal guilt for her sacrificing versus what she even wants to do at this point?

2:00:14Because if you're telling me she's saying, no, I don't want to pursue that right now. I want to focus on, you know, whatever the next couple baby steps are. if that's what she's saying she wants to do, that might be what she wants to do? Or are you just worried that she's going to have resentment later on in life? Yeah, that's a good point. I'd say probably a little bit of both. We're both young and this is like her prime time. This sounds like a date night conversation where you guys sit down and you unpack what you're feeling and you ask her about what she's truly feeling and you guys really get a sense of where each other is at today um based instead of where it was in the past and you know making sure you're making up for lost time and all that i think this is just a conversation you guys have to have yes and that's that's gonna you know point to okay yes we can continue to do some of these baby steps the speed at which we do it might change if she decides, you know what, I do want to start pursuing this competition.

2:01:22You might be going slower, but it doesn't mean you have to stop in that you can't do any of the steps going forward until she's done.

2:01:29George Kamel:Yes. What does she make as a PT tech? Like$35. Okay. And what will you be making with this offer? $200. Okay. Fantastic. Fantastic. So you would just live off your income? Because here's what I'm thinking. She wants you guys to have the emergency fund, have the down payment. And if she stopped, it would slow down your goal by a little bit, but the lion's share of the income will be yours. Yes. So it's not like a make or break. If she pursues CrossFit and quits her job, it's not like I'll never own a house now. So I'm just trying to not make it this like huge A or B scenario. There's an option C, which is it takes us six months longer to save for the house.

2:02:13George Kamel:and we're going to make other sacrifices in other areas to make this happen. So I would sit down, make a budget for what this is going to look like, making$200 ,000 and then factor in taxes and factor in, we've got to save the emergency fund. That's going to take this many months. Then we're going to save a down payment. That's going to take this many years. And then start to go, okay, here's what we're really giving up. Here's the opportunity cost of you pursuing this. And if you find that it's a couple of months, she might then go, oh, you know, I didn't think about it like that. I'm good to do this sooner rather than later.

2:02:44that's that's helpful thank you i think just using logic and facts because everything right

2:02:48George Kamel:now is just like emotion on both sides and i like the idea of the date night to just get some clarity get all the emotion out and then let's look at the facts yeah and i just want to say something because he he used some phrasing that i'm like oh gosh i don't like that you know when you're building a life together with your spouse each person is sacrificing to get to a shared vision a shared outcome him becoming a lawyer is not just beneficial to him. It's beneficial to the family unit. So his feeling of I've got to pay her back for her sacrifice. And it's like, I get what he's saying, but does that make sense?

2:03:21It's like making sure that everybody, it's not about paying people back in a marriage. It's about both people sacrificing and both people doing things to, for the greater good. So just throw that out there.

2:03:31George Kamel:And dreams change too. I mean, she could have a kid and decide, you know what, I don't want to pursue this anymore. And she might stay home and that's fine too. But I like having the options through healthy budgeting and knowing what the numbers are. All right, May is in Phoenix up next. May, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking my call today. Sure. So my question is, I am thinking of going back to school for about 11 to 13 years, and I'm thinking, like, how should I prepare financially? I am 33 years old and still in$69 ,000 of debt. So I'm thinking, do I take that off completely before even thinking of this as an option?

2:04:15What are you going to go back to school to do? So I'm thinking of a forensic pathologist, which will require medical school and basically be a doctor.

2:04:26George Kamel:Wow. That's pretty intense. That's very cool. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Are you single? No, I'm married. Okay. What does your spouse think about this plan? um of course she thinks i can do anything so she's like pushing me to do it of course we want to get into like a little bit less of like have a little less debt before doing this but is that the combined debt the 69 000 or is that just you combined 69 okay because i'm i'm worried that you're not going to be able to work for 11 years it sounds like um yes and no so i'm thinking of taking it slow but yeah i feel like when i get further down in the process you know that's going to be i'm thinking i'll do whatever i can like if i have to work nights and you know what does your spouse earn during the day um she makes um about four to four thousand forty four to forty five hundred a month so forty five hundred a month okay and can Can you run your household just off of the$4 ,500 a month?

2:05:32Have you budgeted that out? We can if we're out of a lot more debt. Okay, so that's a prerequisite.

2:05:40George Kamel:No matter what happens, we're getting out of debt no matter what's next. What is the 11 years of school going to cost? That's another thing that I'm currently looking into. I don't know specifically, but roughly about$14 ,000 a year. So we are, that's the thing, we're wanting to pay out of pocket, obviously not get into any more debt. So we're thinking, do we completely clear out our 69K before even trying to attempt this? You have to. Maybe. I think there's two things that have to be true. First, hear me say, I think this is a really cool goal. I love the fact that you're wanting to reinvent yourself and you're like, I'm willing to put in the time and effort to do it.

2:06:20That's number one. I think that George is exactly right. You got to pay off the$70 ,000 of debt first. And I think that's worth both of you hunkering down and doing whatever it takes to knock that out, full baby step style to get that done. And then from there, it's about saying, OK, during that time, there's also got to be an increase of income along the way so that we can start to save up the$14 ,000 a year or at least get ahead of it so that we can cash flow it. And your spouse is probably going to be bearing the brunt of that weight while you're in school.

2:06:50George Kamel:That puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the books. Remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.