Stop Trying To Borrow Your Way Into Freedom

23:34Dave Ramsey:Well done. Good job. How old are you? Thank you. I am 21. What do you make? I make about$60 ,000 a year, and then I also have some side work that I do that brings in about$5 ,000 a year extra. Okay. And what do you owe on your car? I have just over$20 ,000 on the loan. What kind of car is it? it is a 2023 bright blue Dodge Charger oh that's sweet oh boy I love it yeah I got it right after I started working full-time um I'm in marketing and sales and my car broke down two weeks like two weeks after I started the job and so I heavily upgraded and you know like I said I kind of if I could do it back over again I'm not sure if I would do it but yeah I was completely irresponsible but it's an awesome car.

24:27Phillip, have you Kelly Blue Book did it all? Do you know what it's worth? Yeah, it's worth now only like$22 ,000,$23 ,000 but I have a few offers on some private sites for about what I paid for it.

24:42Dave Ramsey:Which is? About$28 ,000. Okay. So you can make, okay. You can make money. Yeah, so you could go and then go buy an$8 ,000 car and then move out and live your life without a car payment. Okay, so I'm doing that. Right, but I'm also not, like, dying to move out. Like, I don't want to do it right now. So that's kind of the thing is I just kind of want, like, that flexibility. You know what I mean? So I could pay it off by late next year, but I don't want to tie myself down. Wait a minute. You're making$65 ,000 a year. Where's all your money going? Well, I mean, I'm saving a lot of it. Oh, good. How much is in savings?

25:22I have just over, I think in total, closer to about$14 ,000,$15 ,000.

25:29Dave Ramsey:Okay. And the reason I'm asking this is because I had kind of thought like, you know, I'll pay it off at some point. I'll just play the game. But then I rediscovered your content online and I realized I don't have peace. And your thing is called financial peace. So I don't really know what to do. All right. So here's the thing. You've apparently just discovered it because one of the things we teach is called the baby steps. And it's the process that you work through from where you are today, ready, set, go, to get out of debt so that you have your freed up income to build wealth with. And in your case, have a life outside your mama's basement.

26:09Dave Ramsey:Right. Right. And so build wealth and build generosity. And, of course, baby step one is$1 ,000. Anything above that that's not in retirement goes towards the debt. and baby step two is pay off all your debt except your house, working them off smallest to largest. You probably heard us say that, hadn't you? Oh, yes, definitely. So that plan would dictate that you take 13 of the 14 and put it on the 20 today. That would leave you seven, and I want you debt-free in two months. You make$60 ,000 a year, and you have no overhead. Quit going out every night. Oh, there's that. Okay, so you can do that, Phillip, but let me throw this out there.

26:54You're 21. You've got$14 ,000 in savings. You could sell this car tomorrow, go buy an$8 ,000 car, still have$14 ,000 in savings, go rent an apartment, live your life. You're on baby step three. Then you start investing. I'm like, I'm done with the car. You could pay it off 100%, 100 % if you choose to. But also that drains all of your savings for a charger. Sorry, you and Dave have like a love affair over chargers. But I'm like, no, go get like a great Honda Civic.

27:22Dave Ramsey:We're having a charge of bromance. Leave us alone. I know. And I'm like, no, no, just go get a Honda Civic and live your best life. Philip, don't let this car be the thing that like drains your savings. I don't know. You can't. That is the baby steps. That would not be wrong. Yeah, it would not be wrong. It would not be wrong. The rule we use on cars is can you pay them off and all your debt in under two years? I know. Otherwise, the car has to be sold. And is the car less than half your annual income? It is. And do you love the car? All of it. Yes, you do. But also you meet all the guidelines.

27:52Dave Ramsey:You do. You'll be fine. But also plan B crazy plan would be sell it and you can start investing like in the next couple of months with retirement. Like you could snowball your future so fast, Philip, and then you can save up and go buy another car. I don't know. I think the car is I think it's a great picture of where does Philip want to start his 21 year old life and beyond. If I were in your shoes. Dave's keeping the car. in January either way I know I would do either one I don't care I'm with you there's nothing wrong nothing wrong with your suggestion completely I don't disagree with your suggestion at all it's a it's it's 100 okay it's also 100 okay but by January you need to be in your own apartment and be debt-free if you're not willing to do that you need to sell the car okay if the only way to do that sell the car and it's not the only way to do that mathematically by the way if you do what I told you to be debt free, have the car and be in an apartment by January.

28:48Dave Ramsey:Because when you get out of the house, different gears are going to start hitting in your head. And you're going to go to a different place in your young man development. And you're going to start to see life different. You're going to start to make different money choices, career choices, everything. I predict that five years later, your income will be higher if you do that, what I just told you to do. Okay. Because you're out there on your own and you have to buy your own milk. Right. It makes a difference. It just does. And I watched that with our kids. Rachel left college straight into marriage, so she never passed back through.

29:30Dave Ramsey:But her sister passed back through for a few months and then went out on her own. And I watched her change as she went out on her own. I mean, it really, yeah, it forces you to be 100 % responsible for your whole life. You know, I mean, it does. It's a good thing. The lights get cut off if you don't pay the bill, you know, that kind of stuff. So I'm going to encourage you to get out of the house, not because you got a bad situation or toxic situation, but because it's time to grow up, move on. And I'm going to encourage you to get the car paid off one way or the other, either by selling it and doing Rachel's plan or by working on another plan that is within the guidelines, but not as smart mathematically, but it's also okay.

30:06Dave Ramsey:You love the car. We've all established that. So, by the way, if the car was$35 ,000, we both would be telling you to sell it because it would be more than half your annual income. Okay? In value, even if it was paid for. Because, folks, if you – everything that has wheels and has a motor goes down in value. And if you have more than half your annual income invested in things that are going down in value, you don't have to scratch your head and wonder why you're broke. It's in your driveway. it's the bass boat, it's the Sea-Doo, it's the car. The campers. It's the camper, it's the whatever. If it's got wheels and or a motor, it's going down in value, period.

30:52Dave Ramsey:And when you have too much of your mathematical juice tied up and things going the wrong way, it's almost impossible to pull it off. That's what Rachel's suggestion is coming from. Yeah, and the fact that we get calls, I'd say 9 out of 10 calls we get on cars, they owe more. Than it's worth. The fact that he can make$8 ,000 on it, I'm like, do it. Well, make$8 ,000 from what he owes, but not what he originally bought it for. He actually walks away from the table with money, which is very unusual. Yeah, so I'm like, God, take advantage of that. It's kind of an unusual car. It is? A blue Charger?

31:26Dave Ramsey:Yeah, it's a pretty sweet car. Oh, I'm getting nods from the dudes in the booth. The guys in the booth are all going, eh. And you know what? The booth dudes. Majority of women, Phillip, I have no idea. Yeah. We don't know. And if she did go out with you because of your car, you don't want her. And then you've got to bring her back home. So get out of your parents' house.

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33:38Dave Ramsey:If you like what you hear, help us out by sharing the show. Click the share button or cut a link out and send it to a friend or just tell them that we're here. We appreciate that. Those five-star reviews are very helpful. Thank you for that. Because it moves the show and the algorithm out to the front when people are getting a suggestion on their podcast or their YouTube or whatever it is. Yeah, they get it all there. And we're on all the platforms. So whatever you're listening on or watching on, just tell people we're here. Thank you for doing that. You can watch on YouTube and see that Dave and I are matching today.

34:08Did you see that? You got the black shirt memo. And some buttons. I know.

34:12Dave Ramsey:And the guys in the booth all have on the new Every Dollar t-shirts. Oh, they do. So they all look like they came out of a 1950s gym class with those white shirts. White t-shirts. Very good. They look great. They're snazzy looking. And Joe has his tucked in. So I'm just saying. I'm just saying. We appreciate that, Joe. There we go, Joe. All right. Susan is with us in Maryland. Hey, Susan, how are you? Hi, Dave. I'm well. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Thanks for taking my call. I have a question. So I recently got engaged, and I am trying to figure out with my fiancee, how should we approach merging our finances after we get married when I have a pretty high net worth, and he has really no future investments but has a lump sum of cash.

35:16Okay.

35:18Dave Ramsey:And how much is your net worth? About$2 million. Okay. Way to go. How old are you? 53. Okay. And what is his net worth, do you think? $250 ,000. Oh, not bad. Okay. And how old is he? $55 ,000. And what does he make? About$6 ,000 a month. And what do you make? I just retired, but I made almost$200 ,000 a year. So what are you going to do in retirement at the young age of 55? Sure, I have not figured that out yet It is very recent that I just retired Okay, you're not married yet How are you buying groceries?

36:10How are we buying groceries? How are you buying groceries? You have money saved I mean, she has a$2 million net worth Yeah, I know Oh, how am I? I have money I have a pension I have a pension coming in

36:24Dave Ramsey:Oh, okay. Great. Great. All right. What is the$2 million invested in? um so the two million is um my 401k is about 1.1 i have a loss ira i have money market i have a savings account um so all that in total is um about 1.6 and then uh the value or the net value of my home is about$400 ,000. Okay, cool. On a home or a 401k account, when you get married, there's nothing to do. You can't add someone to your 401k account. You could add someone to a deed, but it's probably not necessary. Then what you've got to determine is, is this a large enough difference that you want to make sure you're covered in the event of a divorce.

37:29Dave Ramsey:Okay? And if you do, obviously there's two things you can do on that. One is prenup. And two is, and there's a pretty large difference. The only time we ever would say the word prenup is if there's a huge difference between the two. Okay? And generally it's not to protect you from each other. It's more to protect you two from your weird relatives. When you have a prenup, you just go, ah, I can't help you. I got a prenup. So can't open a pizza parlor with her money. Sorry. Sorry, crazy cousin Eddie. You know, so and that's the kind of thing that helps. It helps a lot with that. The other thing it forces you to do is it forces you to talk through this.

38:04Dave Ramsey:Now, some states and I do not know the law in Maryland and I'm not a lawyer anyway, so you can't trust me on this. But some states would protect your 401k that you came into the marriage with and would protect the real estate that you came into the marriage with. And probably the Roth, too. And the Roth. The Roth is definitely protected. Um, but I, you know, and so if you didn't name him the beneficiary in the event of your death, or if you got divorced, the 401k would be protected in most States. I don't know the law in Maryland. You can ask somebody on that to find out and not Google a lawyer.

38:39Dave Ramsey:Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure that we're going to stay here. Um, just because, you know, I, I, now that I'm not working, I don't need to stay here. He works remotely. I guess my bottom question is what am I missing? he's got a lump sum that he's not doing anything with. It's$250 ,000. He's got a lump sum and no debt. But I guess my question is, should we, when we merge everything, should that lump sum be invested and we're kind of just living on our, my pension and his salary? Yes. I just don't know what to do. And you sell your house if you leave Maryland and you take that money to buy the house in the next place.

39:25Yeah, so we have our own individual houses, but when we get married, we'll merge and we'll move to a different state. Health of living will be less.

39:33Dave Ramsey:I think if you sold both houses and used the equity from both houses to buy the next house, then you've got to think about that as well. Paying cash? Oh, definitely. Definitely. Your house is paid for, right? No, I have$400 ,000 left over on a$700 ,000 mortgage. Oh, I thought it was a$400 ,000 house. Oh, okay, cool. So you have$300 ,000 equity, and how much equity does he have? He just sold his house, so that's where he walked away with the net. Oh, the$250 ,000 was that. Okay, so you have$550 ,000 to buy a house in the new state, and that probably will do it. Yeah, Susan, does it worry you at all that he's in his 50s and has no money saved?

40:15the only money he has to his name was from his house? Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. I was worried. I didn't know about that at first, but after we started getting serious, it made total sense to me. He had his own business and he just kept on believing in it and pouring money into it. And he liquidated his retirement to keep the business going and then finally just gave up. Okay. So there was some mistakes that he's aware of, of why he's in the position he's in.

40:50Dave Ramsey:Yeah, some of it was post-COVID. Yeah. It feels like you're fairly new to Ramsey. So let me give you two principles that are in conflict with each other in this discussion that we believe in both of. Okay. Principle number one is where I told you earlier. I used to tell people never, if you like your money more than the person, just don't get married. If you've got to have a prenup, you don't need to be married because you like your money more than you like them. and then over the years of decades of doing what i do not here only here on the air but sitting in person i found that where there's a huge differential between like two million versus 250 is a huge differential then it does help the relationship in many cases and it does help uh the the crazy cousin eddies that are out there in the in the family tree somewhere uh to have a prenup and so that that's principle number one and that's standard teaching from this microphone that you would have heard over the last decade to two decades.

41:44Dave Ramsey:Okay. The second principle that seems to be in conflict with that and kind of causes your call to happen is we know that couples that combine their finances, combine their earnings and work together to create a future together succeed vastly in the quality of their marriage and succeed vastly in their wealth building capability. We've got tons of data on this to prove it. And so encouraging the two of you to combine your pension, his income, to create your future together, 100 % have to do that. And 100%, whatever money your$2 million makes, if it comes into the checking account, we're going to combine it, and we're going to live our life with it.

42:28Dave Ramsey:Whatever money he makes from whatever, we're going to combine it. And if we're going to both throw in about$200 ,000 or$300 ,000 on this house, we're just going to call the house our house, and that's it. the new house in the new place. Then, you know, so really work to be unified and combined. As a household. But if you wanted to protect a few individual items like these 401ks and stuff prior to marriage, then the prenup would be in order. And it's not in conflict with that, but it feels like it is. And I probably would do that in your case.

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44:51Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, Rachel Cruz, number one bestselling author, Ramsey Personality, host of the Rachel Cruz Show, and my daughter is my co-host today. Joe is in Colorado. Hi, Joe. How are you? Hi. I'm so honored to speak with you guys. You guys are amazing. Well, thank you. How can we help today? Yeah. Okay. We're, my husband and I have been married three years. We're a little overwhelmed. um we worked the first two years to pay down 135 000 debt um on his student loans we don't have any other debt but we still have 235 and it's growing um because we have not been able to pay anything in the last year we're actually paying for some attorney fees for my um daughter uh her bio dad is um now in the picture after eight years it's a long story but um basically we've been doing that for the last year.

45:50Um, I want to get on the same page with my husband and I feel like he feels, I know he feels very guilty about, um, how he hadn't been paying it. Um, he's a recovering alcoholic and, um, you know, he's on the right page now. Both of us are, and, um, we're just, we're expecting a baby. We're going to move. We're just really overwhelmed. We have no furniture. We've been renting from family. And, Joe, y 'all got a lot going on. We do have a lot going on.

46:20Dave Ramsey:So your current husband is a recovering alcoholic? Correct. And how long has he been clean? How long has he been sober? He's been sober eight years. Way to go. Good. And the bio-deb was from eight years ago, right? Correct. I was not married to him. Making sure I got my – sometimes I get confused. Yeah, and what's the degree in? Because it's like a$300 ,000 – Yeah, who's the lawyer? He is. He's not actually making as much as he could be. I think as soon as we are able to move, he'll be able to make more. This location is just completely untenable. He's only making$100 ,000, and I know he could be making a lot more elsewhere.

47:03Dave Ramsey:And what do you do? I'm a graphic designer, and I actually make almost as much as he does, but I've been in this job for a long time. Okay. So you're thinking about moving to a more metropolitan area to further his career? Yes. Yes. And when would you be doing that? The baby's due in December. We're thinking February or March if he can get his bar transferred to another state. That sounds pretty good. Okay. Yeah, it does sound pretty good, especially because cost of living will be a lot better. Yeah. And the income will go way up. Right. Yeah, what would he be expected to make, Joe? $200,$250?

47:41I don't know. Since, you know, he really has only been working the last four years. Yeah, I know.

47:49Dave Ramsey:But if you're talking about moving in February, he needs to be on the job hunt. Yes, and he is. He's got to transfer his bar. I know, but I mean, so he ought to have a clue what he's going to be making. Well, that's true. I think he just wants to get through the first step first of getting that transferred and then start looking. I don't want to do all of this and make 105, so I need to know. I know. I agree. So I need to know. We don't need to worry about transferring the bar if I'm going to make 105. Well, that's true. I mean, my thing would be half right. Okay. I think you're making assumptions here.

48:26Dave Ramsey:We need to ask the question, what can a lawyer make in that city doing the type of law that he's been practicing that he can get a job doing? Can he make 150 or 250? We need to know that. That's a key part of this story, okay? Yeah. But if you're going to come out of there making, you know,$150 to$250, somewhere in there, and you make this move, that all sounds wise. It sounds like your job is portable, so you can take it with you to the city, right? Yes. Okay. Yes, that's true. So very cool. I like all that. Okay. So then we got a baby, and we got a big old pile of student loans, and we've hit a hiccup by an anemic career, his, and we had a hiccup by paying lawyer fees, oddly enough, to beat back the bio dad, right?

49:07Right.

49:08Dave Ramsey:Okay, so both of those things are behind us starting in February. Ready, set, go. Am I missing something? I sure hope so. We might have more attorney fees. This is an ongoing battle. Yeah. Yeah, we don't have even basic things like, you know, furniture to eat on, sit on. Yeah, but that should stop. You make$250 ,000, you ought to go buy some furniture. Okay. When you make the move. I mean, you don't need to buy until you move, but when you move in February, you ought to Have a budget. Yeah, look through. You ought to be able to handle these attorney's fees and eat and put some basic furniture in.

49:44Dave Ramsey:Now, you don't need to spend$200 ,000 with a decorator doing this house up or something. But yeah, go rent you a place and buy a dadgum couch. and then you can start to take some of these things that are on your plate off your plate. And if we're down to fighting BioDad and Sally Mae, now we've defined our fight and we've narrowed our scope. Okay, that makes great sense. And so you would pause the student loans until maybe we're out there? Yeah, for sure. You've got a baby on the way and you don't have furniture. Yeah, payment on payments. but don't put extra on it yeah i wouldn't worry about i wouldn't worry about working your total money makeover baby steps right now to push pause but i would be on a tight budget and pile cash up to make this move we make the move buy a couch settle in have the baby life is good everybody's home and safe all the medical bills from the delivery or if there are any out of pocket are covered all this is done boom now we're set ready set go and we have two goals beat bio dad and sally may okay that that makes great sense and um i think the other part of my question if you have time um my my husband feels so guilty about his student loans i of course feel guilty about the whole bio debt situation i know that we can rally and and fight this together did you know the student loans were there when you got married yes i did yeah why would you feel guilty you signed up for the trip.

51:15I know I tell him this, but I think he, I think he also brings that up whenever I bring up budgeting or money and it always ends in a fight. And I don't know that that's his default per se, but it, you know, he kind of clams up.

51:28Dave Ramsey:What's the fight about? Just that I want to have a budget and I'm probably too aggressive and frugal and he's more, and we haven't spent any money in the last three years, but we're just, I think it's usually that he just doesn't want to talk about it it's not something he likes to talk about yeah well that needs to change that's part of him growing up here part of his sobriety part of his continued sobriety is to face the demons and knock them out yep that's like grown man stuff grown girl stuff so I don't know how I can't be Dave because I'm me what would you suggest I say or how should I approach it?

52:12Dave Ramsey:Look, we both brought things into this marriage, and we both knew about them. And our vows said in sickness and in health, for better or for worse. And we've pretty much got some of the worst covered, so now we get to lean in on the better. Right. You know, we got some of the worst in the rearview mirror pretty early, so now we can lean in on the better. And the better is let's tear these student loans up and let's beat the crap out of, metaphorically, bio dad. Yeah, and it's not who he is, right? From an identity standpoint, I think so much like our net worth becomes our self-worth. And it's like his self-worth, he feels so crappy with his decisions.

52:48But the two are separate, right? You make stupid decisions with money. It's not who you are. It's just what you've done.

52:54Dave Ramsey:Yeah, I filed bankruptcy. And to tap into that part of him and his sobriety and the plan that he worked, I'm sure through AA and different things, Like getting to that level of identity of who I am, that I'm not my addiction, I'm not my debt, that's not who I am. But now I need a plan to get out of it to actually see hope on the other side, which is what you're trying to do with the budget and all of it. I think you keep talking about it and pushing it through. And the encouragement, yeah. And if you need to sit down with a counselor to get some common lingo, there's no shame in that. Jump in, call the people at BetterHelp or something and get some help.

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54:34Dave Ramsey:Today's question of the day is brought to you by Y-Refi. If your private student loans are in default, it can feel like nobody will work with you. But Y-Refi was built for this. They'll help you explore a fresh start. Go to Y-Refi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey. Not available in all states. All right. Today's question comes from Dennis in Florida. During a recent show, you told parents that their children are not morally or ethically obligated to take care of the parents. How do you reconcile that with 1 Timothy 5.8? Anyone who does not provide for their relatives and especially for their own household has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

55:18As a Christian, shouldn't we teach financial responsibility from a stewardship with love and compassion in that perspective?

55:26Dave Ramsey:Okay, a question that is not a question but that is actually a statement is called passive-aggressive. But I'll answer it anyway, okay? So you're trying to teach me the Bible. I appreciate that. So to start with, it says your own household and your relatives. Okay, your own household is not your parents. Your household is the children that live under your roof and your spouse. That's your household. Your parents are not your household. Okay? So who does not provide for their relatives? Now, we would never suggest that you not provide for your relatives food or some basic care as long as there is reasonable behavior involved.

56:11Dave Ramsey:But the same writer as 1 Timothy, which is Paul, also said those that don't work shouldn't eat. And Jesus said, if you're faithful with the little things, you'll be given more to manage. And Proverbs says, the diligent prosper, and, and, and, and, and. So Scripture, when it comes to this issue, this type of issue, is full of cause and effect. If you sow sparingly, you will reap sparingly. So if you plant three grains of corn, please don't expect a bumper crop. Okay? In other words, our actions have consequences. So in what condition would you need to take care of your parents? It would be if they had not done the things that the Bible teaches them to do with money, and so they have none.

57:12Dave Ramsey:That would be the condition. Okay? Okay, so for instance, there is no moral or ethical obligation for Rachel and Winston to take care of Dave and Sharon, nor will there be a mathematical need for her to take care of us. And by the way, there's not a mathematical need for me to take care of her and Winston either because they've done a great job with their own life and have been responsible with the cause and effect world that the Bible outlines and that we all live in. So it is not compassion to say that carte blanche, you should always take care of your parents. That's not compassion at all. Now, so I disagree.

57:52Dave Ramsey:That is not a compassion perspective, love or compassion, either one. Love has mixed in it truth. And the truth is you should save for retirement so that your children don't have to take care of you. The truth is you should live on less than you make. The truth is you should get up and go to work. Work. These are all truthful things. Now, if I've got an 80-year-old lady that calls in here or a guy calls in here and his 80-year-old mom has zero money because they didn't do a good job with their money and dad has died and she's trying to live on Social Security and he says, I want to give her a few thousand dollars a month and I've got$2 million to make sure she's got food.

58:34Dave Ramsey:I never tell them not to do that. I've never in the history of the show told him not to do that. That is an act of compassion, an act of love, and I would do that myself in that situation. But the idea that carte blanche across the board, that the Bible teaches we're supposed to feed our parents in retirement, regardless of how contrary and lazy and slothful and drug-induced they've been, is not a biblical teaching. Dennis. so um that that's just not what the bible is talking about here uh so yeah we do and by the way we do teach first thing you do with money is you take care of your household we teach that and if you've ever read the book i wrote there's a bestseller called the legacy journey the first thing we teach is to take care of your own household not mastercard not the suit like you feed and make sure your household has food shelter utilities yes exactly and so that all of that lines up with this particular scripture.

59:37And honestly, too, I think some of the, I mean, we get a great situation like what you just outlined of like you got two million bucks, your mom has nothing, the dad is that. And yes, you have the ability to take care of her. But also the truth is 40 % of Americans can't even cover a$400 emergency in cash. So the real truth is most people can't even take care of their own household, let alone someone else's. And then they feel this horrible obligation of, oh my gosh, everyone around me, for some reason, I have to be the hero in everyone's story when you can barely take care of your own household.

1:00:06So getting your own household in order is priority. And if you're able then financially not to sink your ship in order to help someone else, absolutely. And we talk about that all the time. Generosity is, we tell you to freaking give at the top of everything. So there is that level of generosity, but you have to be wise about it and in these relational situations. And I think some people feel um yeah like they have to and they can't even take care of their own household yesterday

1:00:33Dave Ramsey:and her 80 year old mom the kitchen was uh her kitchen was messed up the 80 year old mom and the lady said i need to borrow ten thousand dollars to buy my mom a kitchen because the lady was broke yeah and no you can't do that can't do that well you're not compassionate yes i am compassionate we have to figure out some other way and i came up with some other ways to fix the ladies kitchen okay but um but this idea that that if you live your life on the basis of the way this guy is interpreting this scripture it means that you don't have to plan for the future because your kids will take care of you because the bible demands it and that is false the bible does not demand that that's what i'm saying when you say carte blanche i don't have to save for retirement my kids will take care of me have you heard people say that i've heard people say that That is not a biblical statement.

1:01:25Dave Ramsey:And that's the way this is reading out in this email. Yeah. So, no, sorry, Jenice, wrong answer. Wrong question, whatever it was that you did here. It's a good question. I mean, it's a fair. It's a good discussion to have because there's always this angst between I want to care for the people I love. Yes. And how far do I go giving a drunk a drink? Yeah. You know, I mean, okay. You know, they would demand to stay in an$800 ,000 house that's paid for, but they're trying to live on Social Security and they can't buy food. So is it Christian love to support that ridiculous? No. You sell the$800 ,000 house, you buy a$400 ,000 condo, and you buy some groceries.

1:02:15Dave Ramsey:That's what you'd do if your kids weren't there to prop you up. and in that case I would say you're not morally or ethically obligated to take care of your parents in the middle of their stupidity no they're making dumb decisions and I'm not going to support that and the bible does not call for you to do that God does not call for you to do that but it does call for us to be kind in the process to be gentle and to be a generous people when you you know what I mean when you have the ability to yes real generosity changes the situation it doesn't put a mask over the problem. Yes, bad behavior. It's not a band-aid.

1:02:51That's not the point of generosity.

1:02:52Dave Ramsey:That is not real generosity. That is fake generosity. That's shaming. And Dennis, the reason I'm kind of leaning in on this, I think this is what you were saying, but I may be giving you too much flack here. I'll back off a little. It does say today's question. So he had to make it in the form of a question. Our statement says today's question. But no, he's making a statement. But the thing I don't want people to buy off on is this idea that you do not have to be responsible because your children will take care of you. That's not correct. Okay. And that is not compassion and that is not love. By anyone involved in the conversation, real love would say, no, you have to be responsible.

1:03:40Dave Ramsey:Real love would say, I choose to be responsible so that I'm not a burden on my kiddos. That's real love and real compassion and real maturity instead of a cop out. And so, yeah, that's why we say that, Dennis. Hope that helps you.

1:04:13Bye.

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1:05:47Dave Ramsey:Tom is with us in New York. Hey, Tom, how are you? Good. How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? So I've got a question. My wife and I, we just bought a house in March and we owe like$440 on the mortgage. And we don't have any other debt besides that, but we have a brokerage account that we have some money in. She wants to use probably half or the majority of it on a bathroom in the basement that's finished. I would rather either put it towards the mortgage principal or look into refinancing or recasting the mortgage. We don't know which one's the best route to go. What's wrong with the mortgage?

1:06:27Dave Ramsey:Rates have dropped since then to get a better deal? We're at 7 % right now. Okay, so you could get 5.7. So you could save 1.3 if you want a 15-year right now. Okay. Okay, all 440. Okay, and how much is in the brokerage account? About 85. And why did you not put that down on the house in the first place? It was kind of like a timing issue. We sold our old house, and we used equity in there as a down payment to get the 20%. So we avoided the PMI. Then we just threw that in the brokerage account. So we're on a timing issue. It was a decision to not put it all down on the house instead of put it in the brokerage account.

1:07:11Yeah, I guess so.

1:07:12Dave Ramsey:Yeah. Okay.

1:07:17her reasoning for the bathroom in the basement is we have a young child a year and a half and one on the way and as they get older you know the plan is to have them kind of be down there but that's Tom that'll be in like four to five years what's your what's your household income

1:07:39Dave Ramsey:about$260 ,000. Okay. How much would the bathroom reno cost? I'm going to estimate like$50 ,000. Okay. That's a nice bathroom. Yeah. Okay. But you've not really actually gotten a bid, right? We haven't gotten any contractors or anything to give us actual quotes yet, just from what we've looked at. Do you have an emergency fund in addition to the brokerage account? Yes. Okay. All right.

1:08:15All right.

1:08:16Dave Ramsey:Well, if you had – this would not be a question if you had put it all down on the house. Because then if you had done that, you'd have a lesser mortgage. And then the only question would be whether it makes sense from an interest rate perspective to refinance your mortgage. and you say oh we don't have any money so if we want to do a bathroom we have to save up money out of our$260 ,000 income right so I'm trying to back into that and go okay what does that tell me about where I should go now yeah I mean I throw the I throw the 85 Tom at the house you guys cash flow the bathroom and again you're you guys have you're gonna have a newborn I mean I just know this from experience I have a 10 8 and 6 year old so I'm like I mean for the first I mean you don't really leave them alone playing by themselves until like, you know, four ish down in a basement, you know what I mean?

1:09:05Where they can play and they're going to be okay. And they can get, I mean, so you guys are a few, you know, two years or so out of even needing that bathroom down there because the kids quote unquote need it. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm like, it's not urgent to me.

1:09:18Dave Ramsey:So out of 260, you ought to be able to pay for the bathroom in one year. I would do it. In one year. But yeah, I would, I would give yourself a beat. In one year. And I kind of do hate too. There's a level of like the contentment side, Tom, of you guys just bought this house. You're in a brand new house since April and it's been, what, six months and you guys are already like, OK, what else can we do? What else? And a part of me is like, just be just be for a year. Y 'all are OK. You know, there's no there's no urgency in it. Actually, both things could sit for a year. Neither one would. Because one point three savings on your interest rate is good, but it's not huge.

1:09:52Dave Ramsey:So. So you think rates are going to come down further to that question? Yeah, probably. I think it seems to be indicating that all the pressure is that way with the Fed direction and everything else. So probably. But, you know, you understand that weather forecasters and economists are the only ones that can be wrong most of the time and still keep their job. So we don't know is the bottom line. But yeah, so I, okay, what would I do? All right, number one, I think that she doesn't think she's ever going to get a bathroom if we don't use this method. Because you all are probably not on a good detailed written budget.

1:10:39Dave Ramsey:And she can't see how$260 ,000 leads to a$50 ,000 bathroom. I can see that. But the way you all are handling money is not signaling her that that's going to happen. So I think you're going to have to get a detailed written plan that the two of you together say, all right, we're going to save$4 ,000 a month. And in 11 months, we'll have the money. 12 months, we'll have. And in the meantime, we're going to get actual bids from contractors and figure out what we're going to do. We're going to pick everything out. And as soon as we have the money saved over the next 12 months or so, and we have the budget and we have everything dialed in, a detail about what we're going to do, what we're not going to do.

1:11:17Dave Ramsey:We're in agreement on all of that. By then, we'll have the money saved, and together we're going to accomplish that by not eating out as much and maybe not doing that trip and doing a few other things. And then I am going to take the$85 ,000, and I'm going to refinance the mortgage, reduce the mortgage balance by$85 ,000, and get a lower interest rate, get in touch with Churchill Mortgage. And all that next year. You're saying wait a little bit. No, I'd go ahead and do it now. You would do it all now. I'd refinance the mortgage now. You would. You wouldn't wait to see if? No. I mean, if you want to wait two months or something, that's fine.

1:11:51Dave Ramsey:But I'm not going to wait a long time. Because they should have put down the 85 in the first place. Yeah. And so I'm going to undo that. And if I had done that in the first place, what would be the way I do the bath the way I just described? So the way I backed into the answer, Tom, is what we would have told you to do if you'd have called and asked us in the first place. We would have said put the whole amount down and do the bathroom later. Or buy a different house that you don't need a bathroom down there. I would have told you one of those two things if we'd have been involved in the conversation early.

1:12:23Dave Ramsey:And so all I can do is go back to the last time that we were standing on solid ground and go from there forward. And that's the way I'm analyzing this. And that's how Sharon and I would make the decision. And Sharon would be perfectly fine. And Sharon loves to do upgrades, like decorating upgrades or like her love language. Okay. So if that is an actual spiritual love language. But yeah, if there is one, she's got it. And so, and she doesn't mind if we tap the brakes on that, as long as I'm not over here spending the same amount of money on something else that she doesn't agree with. No, wait a minute, you chose that over me.

1:13:03Dave Ramsey:No, we're not doing that. But on the other hand, if we were in this case and we said, okay, we're going to buckle down the budget, we're going to save up the money, we're going to do the bathroom, we've done that a bazillion times in the Ramsey household. and she would not be complaining about that. But if she didn't see how we were going to get there, It's a great point. then she would have a problem. Yeah, because if she has hope that, yes, I will be able to get a bathroom in a year, then we're going to be okay. And, I mean, you guys know this, Tom, I'm sure, but those renovations can swing dollar amounts so far, depending on...

1:13:37Dave Ramsey:Scope creep. Yes, depending on materials you pick, finishes, all of it. So just be aware. Bathroom becomes a sunroom. And if it's the bathroom where two kids are going to be, don't make it nice. I'll just say that much. Bathroom off of our playroom. Nasty. Nasty. Nasty. We clean it, but it's... It's hazmat. Because they'll be learning to, yeah. It's hazmat. They'll potty train in that bathroom, Tom, so just... Hazmat. Just... For sure, hazmat. Especially if you got boys. Did I say hazmat? It's crazy. You know, this could be a different podcast, but I'm like, I don't get that. should be how did that happen charles how did that i don't how did that get there y 'all can we we got we got like 30 seconds i probably shouldn't tell it no no okay okay don't tell it anyways it's a funny this stuff this stuff gets he peed in a candle on our porch last weekend i was like charles what are you doing he's like putting out the candle he said I don't know.

1:14:41It kind of looked fun. And I was like, gross. Gross. So anyways, that's potty training for you boys. I don't get it.

1:15:13Thank you.

1:15:42Dave Ramsey:Hey, don't just set goals in 2026. Learn how to reach them. The 2026 Ramsey Gold Planner is here. We've got just a few of them left. They're packed with monthly content from Jade or Rachel or Deloney each month to help you stay on track with your money, your faith, and your relationships and follow through on your goals. We sell them out every year. Did I mention that? So don't wait. You get yours for$49.97. These things are beautiful. They're well-designed at RamseySolutions.com. Or if you're watching, of course, on YouTube or podcasts, just click the link in the show notes. Chris is in Washington, D.C.

1:16:17Dave Ramsey:Hey, Chris. Hey, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can we help? Well, I'm in a bit of a unique situation. I'll be retiring at the end of the month at the age of 50 from the federal law enforcement retirement system. I am getting a second job, so I'll be working a job and collecting my pension from that. Wow. I have, yeah, I have$1.4 million in my TSP. Wow. And, yeah, started Wise Advice when I first got on the job, put as much money into it as I possibly could. So it's grown quite a bit. So based on the rules within the federal retirement system, I can withdraw on that penalty-free upon retirement.

1:17:02So we're thinking, myself and my wife, about withdrawing$300 ,000 from it to purchase a late property, which we've been interested in doing for a while now. We would then cash flow the development of it over maybe the next five years and maybe eventually build a house at the end of that five years. But we'd probably sell the one we're in to do that or make another decision, finish paying off this mortgage before we decided to build a second house. I just was wondering if it's a good position. It's just a lot of money, right? And I know I'm going to have to pay tax on it. So just wondering what your thoughts on that were.

1:17:45Dave Ramsey:You have other money other than the million. What's your home worth? uh my home's worth about 950 000 and you owe how much on it 270

1:18:02you got them chris with the lake property i'm just i'm just well i'm just thinking

1:18:07Dave Ramsey:the problem is this the the downside is that the uh the the upside is you've done a or the The positive is you've done an incredible job saving money, and you're in a very, very good position. You're a millionaire, and you retired at 55 years old. Way to go. I'm proud of you. Absolute rock star. Very cool. Now, then I start to think about, okay, if I'm going to buy a second property with 30, more than 30 percent, because I've got to pull more than that out to pay the taxes, unless you could cash flow the taxes. But if I'm going to pull 30 % of my nest egg out to buy a second home for enjoyment, but what's bothering me is I don't get the enjoyment because there's not a house.

1:18:50Dave Ramsey:It's just dirt, and it's going to be developed, and the house is not going to appear for another five or six years in what you outlined. True. So I'm not getting anything except some dirt right now. If I got a lake house and I got enjoyment today, hey, you found a little lake cabin for$300 ,000 and you did it. It would feel different to me because you could actually go do it. But this is like you've done such a good job delaying pleasure to get it to a right result. Now you're doing it again. But, you know, we can only kick pleasure down the road so far. We need to eventually have it. And, gosh, that's the only thing that's bothering me about it.

1:19:32Was there something specific about this one property, Chris, and like a specific lake, a specific area of the lake? Was there, I don't know, ties to it or you just saw it and thought, oh, this would be a good spot? No, we've been thinking for a while. So definitely the specific lake. And we've, of course, seen prices go up exponentially. And my concern would be they continue to go up over the next five years. They will. Instead of getting there. Yeah, I know.

1:19:58Dave Ramsey:They will. Or they'll go down dramatically because I own a lake house And the worst category of real estate and the best category of real estate for price is resort property. So beach, mountain, lake, those are the ones that go through the roof when times are good, faster than single-family regular houses do. And they go through the floor as soon as things turn sour. And so they follow the luxury jet market. And so it's way up or way down. It's very volatile. And so, I mean, there's been years that my lake house was kind of sad, and then there's been years it was one of the biggest things I owned, you know, because it just shot people crazy all of a sudden.

1:20:50Dave Ramsey:And it comes and goes in waves. It's very emotional buying public for that. The overall answer is I probably would do it. The only thing, is there acreage involved? Like you're going to sell off lots? You said development. I mean, it's lakefront. It's in a, you know, it's an undeveloped lot on the lake. What does develop mean? I mean, how big a lot is it? Clear it, two acres. Oh, you've just got to clear it. So it's not really, you've just got to get it ready to build on this all. Yeah. But you could do that, and you don't have to do that over three years. You could do that in 10 minutes. Well, probably.

1:21:26Dave Ramsey:A dozer and a chainsaw. The docking, you know, I'd probably put the money towards a dock before I built the house. Okay, I would do that. But I'm going to continue to contribute to another 401k, my post-retirement job as well, until I fully retire. Yeah, so what will your household income be with the new job, the old pension, and your wife? $350 ,000. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You can build it back up pretty quick, right? If you took the 300 out. And you don't move to the lake until you all just quit, right? Yeah. That's what you meant about selling your house. Correct. Yeah. Hmm. I think you do.

1:22:16Dave Ramsey:I like it. I'm catching up. It took me a minute. But, yeah, let's clear it, put the dock on it. But let's move towards building sooner rather than later. But even if you don't move down there, even if you just go there for two weeks in the summer or three weeks in the summer, plus weekends and that kind of stuff. And, yeah, sooner rather than later. So, but, yeah, I think the numbers are going to work out fabulously for you. And you guys have been so responsible in the other areas that it leads me to believe this is all going to work out. Probably you're I think you're being conservative on how fast you're going to do this.

1:22:53Dave Ramsey:because you got you just really y 'all done an excellent excellent job yeah that's um so um federal government employee ladies and gentlemen 55 years old retired full pension he said even what i think he said 50 oh 50 50 years old that's right fully retired with over a million dollars in tsp the thrift savings plan okay starting from nothing and has a 900 000 house that's only got$200 ,000 owed on it. So he's got a million and a half net worth, $1 ,700 ,000 net worth at 50 years old. That's a classic model of a Baby Steps Millionaire. That's the classic model. Now, somewhere in there too, I've got to get this other house paid for.

1:23:37Dave Ramsey:Got to get that mortgage paid off. That's the other thing scratching my head in the back of this. So there we go. But that's good. That's living like no one else so that later you can live and give like no one else but at no point do you get to live and give like no one else without using wisdom so to his credit he's asking for wisdom on how to best do this and he's a late guy i mean if you heard him earlier in the call he said you know people told me early to put as much in the tsp and i you know there's a diligence about him that makes you say on the other side of this decision he's he's gonna follow through he doesn't his character follows through yeah this This is not a guy who jumps from thing to thing.

1:24:15Dave Ramsey:No, no. There's a consistency. Because within, because you can take out, what is it, within your 401k. No, this is. Not the growth. No, I know, I know. But you can without penalty of what you put in, not the growth of it. No, only if it's Roth. The Roth IRA, you can. Okay, TSP, is there anything that you can take out without penalty? So the whole thing will be. There's no penalty on this. It's only tax. It'll only be taxes. Because if he, TSP is Thrift Savings Plans for Federal Government Employees Only. And once you reach retirement age. If they retire, like he's probably got in his 20 years.

1:24:47Yes.

1:24:48Dave Ramsey:Or his 30 years or whatever. When you retire, you no longer work there. The TSP, the penalty is taken off of it. Okay. So it's just the tax. But it's unique only to that. It doesn't apply to 401k.

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1:26:09Dave Ramsey:Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author. My daughter is my co-host. Alexander is with us in Idaho. Hi, Alexander. How are you? I'm better than I deserve. Cool. How can we help? I'm just trying to figure out how much of a step back it would be to my life if I were to purchase a 2025 Harley-Davidson Ryder S. sweet bike thank you you actually know what that one is what's the tag on that what's the price on that MSRP is about$24 ,000 but I'm going to put some upgrades on it pipe and kitty grips and all that good stuff probably about$30 ,000 out the door so what do you make right now I'm making about$65 ,000 a year and then my wife makes about$15 ,000 she works about 10 hours a week.

1:27:07Dave Ramsey:I assume you each have a car. Yes. Uh, I have a truck and she has a, she has a, you know, a crossover. Yeah. What kind of debt do you guys have? Uh, currently no debt. We are actually on baby step six, um, and 35 with, with two little kids. There, there's a, there's a couple kickers about, about that though. Uh, I guess the first one would be that right now we're spending more than we make because, you know, how would you pay for the Harley? Oh, just just extra money. So about about two years ago, we were gifted about$200 ,000 from Sarah's grandmother when she passed away. And you have how much debt?

1:27:57No debt. How are you living above your mean? You're spending more than you make. Why? We saved a lot of money prior to having children. And we are only going to... You're pulling out of savings every month. Pulling out of savings every month. Roughly about$1 ,000 a month.

1:28:15Dave Ramsey:Why? Why can you not live on$85 ,000? You know, tithing and 15 % for retirement and... And restaurants. and restaurants and travel and vacations and restaurants. No, we're not doing a whole lot of that. Yeah, you are. You're doing something because the tithing does not cause you to not be able to make your budget. That sounded real holy, but I'm not buying it. Yeah, our mortgage is about$1 ,400 a month. That's not killing you. Okay, well, anyway. So here's the thing. I love almost anything that has a motor in it. which is kind of why I don't like Teslas because I like almost anything that has a motor in it and so that bike is very cool my Tesla will be his bike and your car in a race I'll just say that, go ahead oh yeah, well, that's not a anyway, it's a very cool bike and so what I'm trying to say is I completely understand why your adrenaline is up when you think about it and I can get that way about a myriad of different things with motors in them.

1:29:29Dave Ramsey:Everything from a skid steer to a ski boat, right? So I get it. But I will also tell you that as a young man with two children and hasn't figured out a way to live on$85 ,000 a year, to invest$30 ,000 in a motorcycle that's going to be worth$15 ,000 and about an eye blink is not a good investment. You're not in a position to afford this. But I guess a little bit more with our finances. I mean, we owe about$250 ,000 in the house. The house is worth about$450 ,000. We have a little over$210 ,000 combined in the work retirement accounts. And right now we've got about$150 ,000 in a separate mutual fund with about$80 ,000 in an emergency fund.

1:30:15Dave Ramsey:You have too much in an emergency fund, and you should pay off your mortgage. You're sitting on$200 ,000 worth of inheritance,$150 ,000 in a mutual fund,$80 ,000. That's enough to pay off your mortgage. Why do you still have a mortgage? I think that's kind of one thing my wife and I, I guess, disagree on. I'm kind of on the plane of mortgaging. You know, we pay off the mortgage, but when we first received the money, and she was kind of along the lines of just to be safe, to put it in mutual funds. Nothing safer than a paid-off mortgage. Sure. It's much safer than a stock market investment. I know, but I guess that was out of here.

1:31:00Dave Ramsey:Okay, I don't think we're going to be able to help you, honey. No, I would not buy the motorcycle. You're too broke to do it, and you haven't learned to live on less than you make. No, I would not do it. Holly is with us. Holly's in North Carolina. Hey, Holly, how are you? I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I'm calling because I have a situation with my eldest daughter where she made an agreement with my husband and myself, along with her two sisters, to pay her student loans after graduation that we took out for them. They are parent loans, but the agreement was that they would pay them when they graduated, just as we had paid for our education.

1:31:43My husband and I are both nurses, and we put ourselves through school. and they disagreed with how the money would be spent for college. We wanted them to stay home and commute, possibly to save money, but they really wanted to go away and we said the debt is on you. We did help them through college with other expenses. Along the way, it wasn't like we just abandoned them and we continued to provide for my younger daughters here and there. My oldest daughter now is refusing to pay her loans and do good on her agreement with us. It was a verbal agreement. Her sisters are paying their loans. They know that it's their responsibility, but my oldest is refusing to pay her loans.

1:32:31What is she saying? She's saying that she doesn't care, that it's our problem. And she has cut off communication with us. so we have been told that we have no recourse.

1:32:45Dave Ramsey:You do not have any recourse. Right. You borrowed the money. She didn't borrow the money. Right, right. I know, and I've accepted that. It's upsetting, though, because it's almost a moral issue. Yeah, it is. You shouldn't have done this to your daughter. You put her in debt to you. Yeah, no. And you called it a blessing and acted like you did something righteous. No, not really. No, I mean, this was a really, really, really bad idea. It was a bad idea. And it's cost you guys a relationship. It's horrible. I know, the relationship part, so that's so heartbreaking. Well, what you're discovering is that math is not independent of relationships, that the borrower is slave to the lender, and she didn't like being your slave anymore.

1:33:34Well, she wanted to go to college, and it was the only way to pay for it.

1:33:38Dave Ramsey:No, no, it wasn't. No, she wanted to go to a certain college, and it was the only way to pay for it. And you endorsed her doing something you didn't believe in by borrowing the money in your name to do it. Oh, no, I think you misunderstand me. You said she could go to a community college and pay for it, and she chose to go to a fancy college and borrow the money in your name. It wasn't really a fancy college. It actually was a seven-year medical school program that is the cheapest probably in the country to get into, and she got into it, and she was very fortunate to do that. If I were in your shoes, I would call her up and say, honey, I made a mistake.

1:34:13Dave Ramsey:I shouldn't have done this. I call up your other two daughters and say, honey, I made a mistake. I shouldn't have done this. We're going to pay all these loans. They're in our name. We hope you children have a great life, and we'll never make the mistake of borrowing money for someone else ever again. It was our fault.

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1:36:00Dave Ramsey:So we have a very popular and award-winning documentary that is now free to watch on YouTube that we did a couple of years ago called Borrowed Future. We spent a lot of time delving into the student loan epic failure that is in America today. Now$1.8 trillion worth of student loan debt. Where does that come from? Whose fault is that? Well, it's Congress's fault for starting the program. It's Congress's fault for not stopping the program once it was considered an abject failure. And they still have not stopped it, number one. number two we tried to get to the mathematical source of why people keep going into student loans why it was normalized to take out a student loan and you can blame that on higher education because they've run the cost up through the roof the the inflation rate of higher education is about 3x the normal inflation rate but they're building lazy rivers for college freshmen to really are a couple of campuses have this now they can ride an inner tube through the lazy river under the dorm i mean it's un-freaking-believable what they're spending money on and then they're charging it back to your children in the form of ridiculous tuition and ridiculous housing costs so it's higher education's fault it's congress's fault um it's the 18 year old's fault because no one ever told this 18 year old no ever in their whole freaking life for anything and so they expect to go do anything they want to do wherever they want to do it.

1:37:35Dave Ramsey:So there's, you know, it's their fault. And then Rachel Cruz comes in and goes, you know, at the core of it though, is a parenting problem. It's not a student loan problem, the parenting problem. And the reason you said that. Well, because in my head, I'm like, you know, they're 18. So yes, you are a legal adult and you're signing up for something. It's your signature on it, but also you're 18 and the adults in your life should be the ones stepping in and guiding and giving you wisdom that's actually going to help you and not hurt you. And so, yeah, I mean, for parents to just sit back is negligence to me.

1:38:10I'm like, you know, step into your kids' lives and talk to them about the repercussions of this because we get calls all day of six-figure student loan debt and it's not working in people's favor. And the truth is, too, there's still other options. You know, you can go to community college in a lot of states now. There's free community college, you know, a lot of places. And so you can go get your associate's degree and then transfer to a university if you want to get the bachelor's for the last two years. But save, just be wise about it. And instead, it's kind of this like, well, it's so expensive.

1:38:39No one can afford it. So just go wherever you want to go. And that's the message out there.

1:38:44Dave Ramsey:I remember the first time I got that call. And I just realized that your mother and I are dinosaur parents. We're from a whole different world than some people. a guy called me from Michigan. He said, my son told me he is going to this college that we can't afford. And I thought to myself, you know, that's different because when it comes to my money, the 18-year-old doesn't tell me anything. I tell them things, but they don't tell me stuff. That was my first reaction is the parents are wusses. They're enabling wusses instead of actually having a backbone and going, how about no is a complete sentence?

1:39:27Dave Ramsey:You know, no. And like integrity, I meant it, you know, no. And then we can explain why maybe if I have to, but so, but like, you know. Probably good parenting, yes. So I mean, here's an example, okay? One of our children, which won't be named, almost left the family because that child decided they were going to apply for colleges other than the University of Tennessee. And so they got accepted into a SEC school, Mississippi. No, Auburn. Was it Auburn? Okay, Auburn. Almost as bad. And so another SEC school, but it's slightly across the state lines, like 50 miles. And at that time, it was triple the tuition.

1:40:10It was double.

1:40:12Dave Ramsey:For apparently about the same degree. so you're going to pay double because you want to go across the state line 50 miles for basically the same degree and basically about the same level of football i mean it's really it's you're going to pay double for apparently nothing and so the discussion was no well or you got to figure out a way to pay for it and then that person couldn't figure out a way to pay for it and so she decided to graduate from the university of tennessee where her parents were willing to pay for in-state tuition. Go Vols. Go Vols. Okay. And now I'm an alum. It's great. And now you're famous alum.

1:40:50No, I was going to go to UT. It was a little bit of a rebellious.

1:40:52Dave Ramsey:Yeah, but it's a little bit of a flex there. A little bit of a flex by the middle child. But yeah. So I mean, we have these discussions in our house, right? But here's the thing. If your child comes in and says, I want to go to a school that we cannot afford, and you say, I don't think you should, you don't go take out a Parent PLUS loan and pay for with your signature a decision that you think is unwise and unhealthy for them. And then be shocked eight years later that everybody in the whole story is pissed at you. You caused this because you endorsed this stupidity. And that's the problem you get into.

1:41:36Dave Ramsey:So there's zero chance that any of you should ever take a Parent PLUS loan, and there's zero chance that you should give a child who's going to take out student loan debt a dime of your money of any kind, zero support. If you leave home and go to a college on a student loan, you should tell your kid you are 100 % food and everything on your own because you are stepping outside of my wisdom. I am telling you the best thing you can do is go to a school that we together can pool our money and pay cash for. And you need to study and get a degree that actually has use, not left-handed puppetry. And so you're going to study something and you're actually going to go to class and pass the class.

1:42:21Dave Ramsey:And together you're going to take a job and you're going to get we're going to go to in-state tuition. we're going to go to a school we have the money to pay for and that we are in agreement on what is good for you. It does not affect me personally where my kid goes to school. I mean, what degree they get. It doesn't affect me personally. And so any guidance I force upon them or persuade upon them is an act of love. so this idea that you're going to borrow money in your name on a parent plus loan to cause your kid to go to a school that you don't think they ought to be going to there's so many dumb things in that sentence yeah and not to keep extending the point but the last caller which i was a little shocked that i mean you were you were you were you laid down the law with her do you is there any moral though obligation of the daughter at all that they shook hands and had a deal Absolutely.

1:43:18Dave Ramsey:She promised she called us. We told her to pay it because she said she'd pay it. Yeah. She should keep her word. Yeah. You know, you can't claim victim. You were there at the party. Right. Right. Yeah. And so if you promised your parents you would pay the parent plus loan, you should do it. But as a parent, you set up a 100 percent guarantee that there was going to be a relationship problem. because they are strained because you got involved and caused them to make a bad decision. Yeah. By allowing it with a you borrowing the money to do that and then expecting them to pay for the mistake that you knew they were making and you financed their mistake.

1:44:00Dave Ramsey:Of course, they're going to be resentful of that later. There's a hundred percent chance they're going to be resentful of that later. Well, and what sucks is you're 18. And again, your frontal cortex like isn't even formed. You know what I mean? I'm like, you're a kid. You're like, you're 18. You're a child, you know, and that's what's hard. Yeah. Is they're making these massive financial decisions as a teenager. And you're like, oh my gosh. You can't buy a gun and you can't buy beer, but you can borrow 150 grand. Borrow a mortgage of 200. I mean, it's just so freaking stupid. It's just stupid.

1:44:36Dave Ramsey:It's all it is. It's the only thing you can call it. And so to participate in that system as parents is not an act of love. Instead, you go, hey, you're going to a school we can all pay cash for and study something we can all agree on is good for you. And if we can't agree on all that, you're going to make 100 % of the decisions on your own. You can't keep an 18-year-old from leaving home and going$150 ,000 in student loan debt. But you can say, I'm not giving you any emotional or financial support for your stupidity because I love you. And I'm not going to endorse you bringing harm to yourself.

1:45:12Dave Ramsey:You can have the backbone as a parent to say that. Instead of going, well, they're making unwise choices and I think I'll finance it. Of course they're going to be resentful later. Of course. And then don't be shocked that they are.

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1:46:36Dave Ramsey:In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Brad and Amanda are with us. Hey, guys, how are you? Hi, Dave. Hey, Rachel. How are you guys? Good to have you. Where do you guys live? Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Oh, fun. Well, welcome to Nashville. And all the way here to do a debt-free scream. How much have you paid off? $130 ,000. I love it. Nice. And how long did that take you? 20 months. Good for you guys. And your range of income during that two years? $170 ,000 down to$120 ,000. Okay, cool. What do y 'all do for a living? I work in construction and I'm a nurse. Okay, cool. So why the 50 drop?

1:47:13Dave Ramsey:That's interesting. We had a baby. So I'm mainly a stay-at-home mom now. Oh, okay. So you've kind of gone to part-time or no time? PRN. Yes. I love it. Good for you. How old's the baby? He's almost 10 months. 10 months. Okay. So right in the middle of this journey. 10 months. Yeah. The majority of it. Yep. That's great. What kind of debt was the 130 ,000? Most of it was student loans. We also had a HELOC personal loan and a little bit of everything else sprinkled in there. We were very normal. Ah, how long y 'all been married? Almost. Almost five years. Okay, so just long enough to get in a big mess.

1:47:48Dave Ramsey:Okay, so what happened 20 months ago? What was the wake-up call, the inspiration, the, what was it that's jogged you into this? This started out like every success story. I was doom scrolling on Instagram and I saw a, about a 10 second clip of your show and it was very drama filled and I had to know the ending. So the next morning I looked up the episode and what started out as just curiosity ended up eight hours of your show. Oh my gosh. Yes. Eight hours straight. Yes. And I had never heard anybody talk about money the way that you guys do. And I was amazed. And whenever he came home from work, I was like, have you ever heard of Dave Ramsey?

1:48:27And he said? Yeah, I had heard of you before this, but didn't really understand your principles or didn't really implement any of them. All right.

1:48:37Dave Ramsey:I'm unbelievably curious. What was the show? What was the drama that hooked you? It was a woman who had called in and she was in a very bad situation with her partner. There were kids involved. There was, it sounded like financial abuse and potentially some other abuse. and you were walking through it with her until you realized you're in danger now. Oh, yes. I remember that call. It was me and Rachel. Yep. Yes. I do. Then it like cut off and I was like, I have to know what happened. Give me the rest of the story. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That's crazy. And then you went, watched eight episodes. Yeah.

1:49:11And then poor Brad comes in the door and you're like. And I bombarded him. Yeah, I bet you did. Well, your eyes are red.

1:49:17Dave Ramsey:You've been watching eight hours of YouTube. She's like, listen, listen. This is what we're going to do. He's like, we're going to pay off all the debt. We're going to go do a debt-free scream and I'm going to get a debt-free shirt. And he's like, I'm not going back to work again. Brad, what did you think when she kind of had this whole new plan of how to do money? Well, that's very much like Amanda to do that. And I was like, okay. And I'm one that like, I react slowly. So I was like thinking about it. It's like, well, we could definitely do that. Yes. Yes. Okay. So what was the first step you guys did as a couple?

1:49:51Did you sit down and do a budget? Did you map out your debt? Like, what was the first step? Because there's going to be some people maybe watching this clip, you know, on social media and see it. But what would you tell them? I think it really started with just like adding all of the debt together. And it's like, oh. Yeah, we didn't realize it. Yes. It was just sitting there the whole time. And I was like, oh, it's bad.

1:50:13Dave Ramsey:It's$130 ,000. Lots of little stuff. Yep, just add it up. And it was a, you know, light bulb movement. It's an oh crap moment. We really do have to do this now. Oh my gosh. And so then what happened? Well, we knew that we wanted to start a family and this was like a large step in just getting secure before having a child. And definitely after getting it paid off, you are a lot more comfortable and flexible. And whenever I got pregnant, it was like, we got to go full send. So I was working six or seven days a week as a nurse on the floor, working two jobs up until four days before I had my baby.

1:50:58I got cleared by my OB. I wasn't doing anything dangerous, but you were, yeah, but workhorse. I'm like, you're like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this. My coworkers thought I was crazy. Yes. Yes. I got a lot of bad feedback, good feedback, sure feedback but now after having a baby you realize oh yeah all day before the baby like i we have the time we can do this because life just changes completely right when you when you enter in a new little family member um okay so for the 20 months what would you say it was the hardest part of that journey for you guys for me was not seeing each other i was gonna say time away from each other okay yeah yes all the work we were passing ships in the night because i was doing hours upon hours upon hours upon hours yeah and of the 20 months nine of it you were pregnant yes yeah wow yeah that is so hard okay so now from the marriage perspective because relationally you know you don't see each other I'm like that is that's a sacrifice for sure would you say your marriage is stronger today because of it and because of you guys going through this journey together than it was even you know two years ago uh definitely because of like the communication that's involved in it.

1:52:03And we were very transparent with finances before it. But this definitely just reinforced all of it. Yeah. Wow. We know we can really lean on each other.

1:52:13Dave Ramsey:So this idea that because we get the call, you hear it if you listen, that, you know, I don't want the work-life balance and I don't want my spouse to feel abandoned. And y 'all didn't, you just went, you just went to work all the time. And you said, we're going to communicate and communicate and communicate and work all the time. And we're going to get out so that we can live like no one else, so that later we can live. And it didn't kill you. As a matter of fact, it made you stronger. Absolutely. We chose to be comfortable over being convenient. So we feel very comfortable now, but we had to put convenience aside.

1:52:43Oh, that's good. Yes, during that process. Good phrase. So good. That's a good phrase. Did anyone make fun of you? Did people think y 'all were crazy? Absolutely. Yes. I got so many bad, so much bad feedback at work. So funny because you were working so much. Was that the bad feedback? Or was it the paying off debt?

1:53:01Dave Ramsey:Working so much while she's pregnant. And also, we had an eight-passenger Subaru that was paid off at that time. And we sold it and we got a 20-year-old van. And on the back of it, it says, Dave Ramsey makes me drive this. Oh, great. Thank you. Now it's my fault. And so people are like, what are you doing? Like, you're crazy. Why are you doing this? Have you joined a cult? Yes. And I was like, yes, we did. We got Xander. We got every dollar. We just went full cent. you're all in it all in it yes oh my gosh all right now that you're free was it worth it 100 definitely yeah i'm proud of y 'all very proud of you get to stay home yes it's wonderful yes and you get to like make these decisions without the stress of feeling like we have bills to pay oh and all those people who thought they had a vote are still at work oh look at that i was just telling him i said it's so weird because we don't really get any mail anymore like bills don't come in the mail.

1:53:57It's just the newspaper.

1:54:00Dave Ramsey:When I first started this stuff 35 years ago, I met a guy who said, I want more mutual fund statements in my mailbox than bills. That's a good trade. I like that. Very cool. Good for you guys. It's awesome. You're all so proud. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? Adding friction to financial transactions, so making it less convenient to spend the money. And I really like the home-cooked meals. Give me an example of the friction you did that made it hard to spend money. Well, obviously the credit card makes it too easy to spend money. Removing Amazon Prime and not shopping on Amazon as much as you can because it's too easy to click that button and it's sent to your door.

1:54:46It's amazing how much we stopped spending whenever we got rid of credit cards. I know you guys talk about it, but I don't think people realize how impactful that is.

1:54:54Dave Ramsey:It's the truth. Wow. Who knew? because you feel it with your money you're thinking twice about it yes and i would add to that that you have to believe that it's possible i didn't believe it was possible until i started watching your show and i was like we could do this yes oh you guys are amazing congratulations you're you're a power couple man i'm so proud of y 'all you killed it you're gonna be you're doing so well you're gonna be in such a great place in another couple of years and then you've completely changed your family tree for your baby i'm proud of you very very very well done Brad and Amanda from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,$130 ,000 paid off in 20 months, making$170 ,000.

1:55:29Dave Ramsey:Now she's home, making$120 ,000. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one. We're debt-free. Yeah.

1:55:42Dave Ramsey:Wow.

1:55:46Dave Ramsey:Well done, well done, well done. I have to let the social media team know that they changed a couple's life with that clip that they dropped for doom scrolling. Wow.

1:56:23We'll see you next time.

1:56:35Dave Ramsey:The scripture of the day is James 1.12. Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial, because having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. Newt Gingrich said, perseverance is the hard work you do after you get tired of doing the hard work you already did. That's good. Hey, big news. The Fed just cut rates. We all heard about it last week, and 15-year fixed-rate mortgages have dropped to the lowest we've seen in 11 months. Currently, 15s are sitting at 5.71. If you're financially ready, now's a great time to buy a house or put one up for sale.

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1:57:44Dave Ramsey:Don't use Aunt Sally. It's a million-dollar house. That's dumb. Find a trusted local pro for free at Ramsey solutions.com slash agents, or click the link in the show notes. If you're listening on podcast or YouTube, Trevor's in Florida. Hey, Trevor, what's up? Hey, how are you guys doing today? Great, man. How can we help? Please bear with me. I'm nervous. I'm ashamed, disgusted, embarrassed at all. I'm going to answer your question because I really need guidance on this. should I file for bankruptcy? I made a dumb mistake, and now I regret it, and I'm ashamed. So just a little quick backstory.

1:58:30So I purchased a house, and when I purchased a house, I kind of paid more than what I should have. Then fast forward, I basically ended up losing my job. um in the mix of it um i bought when the interest rates and um and the prices were going up and i already had paid over what their house was supposed to be um so when i went to sell it i basically um couldn't sell it because there was a lot of brand new uh properties going up and the sellers were uh giving a lot more insenses so there my house beautiful house um was up for deal, but nobody was really interested because I wasn't offering anything on no incentives.

1:59:17I couldn't compete with the other sellers. And then I ended up, my realtor kind of convinced me to do a sub-two contract, meaning I keep full financial obligation of the payment while I basically have somebody make the payment for me and once the house is paid they uh they take basically the house is theirs um fast forward a year um well not even a year um the person that took over the payment has not been making the payment so i just got served um on august 22nd um that the house is going up for foreclosure so i'm reached out to the gentleman i've been trying to reach out to the gentleman because i I kind of knew that he was in pain, but I was unable to.

2:00:13So I drove there last week and kind of spoke to him, and he has no intention of leaving the property.

2:00:20Dave Ramsey:He has no intent of what? Say that again? Of leaving the property or kind of signing it back over to me to the deed. So he's living there. So he's running a scam, yeah. Yeah, so basically right now I have no means to get another lawyer because I'm going through a custody battle. My mother of my kids moved about three hours away. What do you make of your Trevor? Myself, I make 40, and my wife looks 40, so if in mind we make about 80. Okay, all right. You can afford a lawyer and you need a lawyer. That is correct. Yeah. Because if you file bankruptcy, it's a lawyer, and you have to pay a lawyer.

2:01:08Dave Ramsey:Yeah. So you might as well pay one to evict this scam artist. Yeah. So that's what I was thinking of. But, again, like, my budget right now is super, super tight. Like, I'm paying about$800 for the other lawyer to get this case resolved. Because, like I said, like I mentioned earlier. You don't have the money to file bankruptcy if you don't have the money to hire a lawyer to throw the guy out. Well, I have a PC that I have right now, and I can probably get like$15 for it. You have a what? A PC. It's a gaming computer. Yeah, okay. So sell it and hire a lawyer to evict the guy. You don't think it's going to take too long, though?

2:01:55Dave Ramsey:It might. It might, but we don't file bankruptcy until we've tried everything else. I'm not going to roll over. In Florida, it's going to take them forever to foreclose. How far behind are you on the house because the guy's not paying the bill? What? January. So about$40 ,000. How many months? That's February, March, April, May, June, July, August. About eight. Yeah. So when they sent you a notice, they didn't give you a date. They just said the house is in default and we're going to foreclose if you don't straighten this up. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I already got served. The 20 days for me to respond to the court has passed by.

2:02:34However, I logged in today to see, like, the case disposition because he received his, the person that's living in the house right now received, he got also served. And he basically had 20 days also to respond. But now, I guess he was able to hire a lawyer and basically put, like, oh, they didn't serve all the tenants that are living there correctly. So I guess he's—

2:03:00Dave Ramsey:Well, this guy's really good at scamming, yeah. Yeah. Okay, but the foreclosure date has not been set. Not yet. Yeah, it shouldn't be in Florida after seven months. It'd be unusual if it was. Okay. And it's a little bit more of a grand story to it. So right now, this all happened. We moved to Puerto Rico, and then we just came back. So right now, we're living with in-laws, and we were trying to get an apartment. What were you doing in Puerto Rico? Just basically started a new job. Kind of didn't work out because my 9-year-old's education started drawing back. And we noticed it, and we just told my wife, and I was like, I need to see what's going on.

2:03:42Dave Ramsey:All right, Trevor. Okay, here's the thing. You're not bankrupt until you're bankrupt. You are projecting into the future that this is going to go one certain way. And we don't know what it's going to do yet. It doesn't sound good. There's no question you've been scammed. But it's not costing you a dime today. You're not having to write checks today unless you want to catch this thing up. Yeah. Yeah, so no, but again, since we moved back, we're living with my in-laws. I really want to move out, but I'm unable to. I've got six kids. It's not got anything to do with bankruptcy. I understand that.

2:04:26Dave Ramsey:Bankruptcy doesn't get you a place to live for six kids. No, I understand that, but it's just the fact that it's already hitting my credit. and even if I was to find the money. You don't think bankruptcy dings your credit? No, it does. Okay. You're getting ready to drop an atom bomb on your credit, dude. It's going to be a wasteland for seven years, for 10 years if you follow Chapter 7. And you're not bankrupt because nothing has happened yet to bankrupt you. You just have done a series of bad deals, and you keep jumping from one thing to another. You jumped into the house, you jumped out of the house.

2:05:06Dave Ramsey:You jumped into Puerto Rico, you jumped back. Jump, jump, jump, jump, jump, jump. You need to find something really steady and put your hand to the plow and stay on it. And I do recommend, you keep arguing with me, but you called and asked me what to do. And I recommend you get a lawyer and you throw this guy in the street. And then you start negotiating with a mortgage company on a short sale with a good real estate agent that knows what they're doing. the other real estate agent that you had was an ignoramus at best a con artist at worst no one should have recommended you do that deal it was malpractice now might the law might not call it that i'm morally calling it malpractice it was horrible advice to put you into that deal those deals always end up this way they never end up any other way because who else moves into a house and pays full price for it, plus and pays payments for 30 years, and it's not even in their name.

2:06:04Dave Ramsey:People who are going to scam you, that's who. So that's what I would do if I were in your shoes, huh? That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.