Episode 272: Rob Carrick: Canadian Personal Finance in 2023

22:58You know, the math is working against them. And it works against you if you want to move up the property ladder. I would encourage people to think about buying a 10-year house or property. You know, where can I buy in? I can live here for 10 years. Build up your equity a lot before you move. Don't expect to jump from place to place to place. I mean, that was totally feasible in the past few years when house prices were rising all the time and you could just, every property you bought was a launch to a better property or bigger property. More staying put would be very good for people's personal finances.

23:30Yep. Yeah. We've used that sort of 10-year rough rule of thumb too. I think that makes a lot of sense. So if it's not buying a condo, where do you think people who want to get into the housing market in the next five years should be parking their money? Well, if you're parking your money and you're saving your down payment, then I would say you have to be in something safe. And so for me, I would probably open up an investment account and use a high interest savings ETF, get 5.3%. I would use maybe a trading app like WellSimpleTrade because I'm not paying any commissions. So there's zero friction.

24:01And I would just let that sucker pile up. And if interest rates start to come down, I start to look at what the alternatives are. But the high interest savings account ETFs track the Bank of Canada's overnight rate. And the Bank of Canada isn't in any hurry to lower that rate. So I think you're going to get your five. And then the Bank of Canada is probably going to make a bunch of little quarter point cuts very gingerly to see how things go. So you'll see your returns go down a little bit. I wouldn't want to lock money up in GICs, probably, because I know when people are looking for houses, sometimes it happens quicker than they thought.

24:32And you don't have to go and ask how to cash out of a GIC and find out the penalty is like a pint of blood. So that's why I like high interest savings account details. Also investment savings accounts, those are like savings accounts packaged like mutual funds. The yields on those are four and a half to five percent right now. That's pretty good too. I would use one of those. That's what I would do. Yeah, we agree. How common is it these days for adult kids to live with their parents? It's way common. It's common. When you use the term adult kid, what age do you think you mean? I'm thinking like mid to late 20s.

25:05Yeah, it's happening into the 40s. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm super interested in this. I mean, I have two millennial-age sons, and they both live in Ottawa, work, they live in their own places. But earlier on, they were sort of in and out of the house, sort of the revolving door kind of thing. So I'm really interested in this sort of thing. So I have done surveys in my newsletter to ask what's happening. And yeah, there are adult kids in their 20s, 30s, and early 40s living with their parents. The reasons are all over the place. some it's cultural you know in certain cultures you live at home until you get married and buy a house and that's perfectly normal in fact it's quite sensible in some ways and i expect we'll see more of it happening because there's the affordability side of it too rents are exorbitant and how do you save for a house down payment if you're paying 2500 a month in rent if you have a student loan as well so through sheer practicality there's a little judginess built into these topics It's like, why are these young kids living with their parents?

26:05What's wrong with them? Well, sometimes nothing is wrong with them. They're actually quite astute on personal finance, and they're lucky to have nice parents, and it's a good arrangement, and they can go and get out from under these high rents and build up some home equity, and away they go. And maybe they can also put some money away for retirement, start all the bill investing. They can max out their FHSAs because they're not paying rent, or they're paying minimal rent. I think it's something like about half of parents are charging their kids rent, and usually it's a nominal rent. And many of them aren't actually taking the rent per se.

26:35They're actually putting it in investments for their kids and they'll give it back to them. It's just sort of teaching a little discipline of shelter costs money. And we're going to act that out with this rent. So that's what's happening. It's super common. And I really got onto the topic of kids living at home or young adults living at home back in 2009 after the financial crisis. And it was like, remember the boomerang kids, these losers who were going home to live with their parents? What's wrong with them? The failure to launch. And now it's really normalized. Although people don't go around bragging that my kids are living at home.

27:07They sort of mutter about it with people and commiserate. But it's normal now. And I'm standing back and thinking a lot of these people are doing smart things. You mentioned parents charging their kids rent. Are you seeing any parents sell half of their house to their kids? I've seen it happen once. I actually wrote a call about it, I think in early August. A guy reached out to me and said, we're doing something really interesting with our house. My partner and I have bought half my parents' house and we've turned it into sort of a duplex. We put a lot of rental bucks in and they've basically, the parents live on the ground floor.

27:41The younger couple lives on the upper floor. They've created like separate heating and cooling units, separate entrances. But it's a nice old house in Toronto that the younger couple could never afford to live in. And now the parents have little support. They're into the retirement years. The young couple thinks, we start a family. We've got built-in daycare. and it was working out pretty well. I wrote a column on it. It seemed to get a fair amount of engagement. I think that's a model, really. I mean, I'm hearing a lot of talk about, you know, I want my kids to inherit my house. Well, why wait till you're dead for that to happen?

28:15You've got a big old city house in Toronto or Ottawa or any Canadian city, and you're not using it all as parents, and you're thinking, should be downsized. I don't want to be doing all the work. What about having your kids come in? Spend some money to remodel, And I kind of think the resale value on those houses will be huge because you're going to have a market of people who want to do the same thing as you when you go to sell. So I don't think it's happening a lot, but I think a lot of people are open to the idea and exploring it. It's complicated. You need a lawyer. To me, it's a problem solver.

28:47I'm conflicted in this next question because I live in suburban Ottawa where there are fields, hundreds, thousands of new homes being built. But are more Canadians giving up on home ownership? Yeah, you know what? They say they are. That's the thing. You know, there's a lot of young people who are really sort of depressed about the economy and affordability and stuff. And they're making big statements like, I'll never own a house. I'll never have kids. I'll never retire. And I think, you know what? You're 20 something. Wait a few years. Life is long. Things happen. You'll feel more optimistic as time goes by.

29:20So a lot of people say they're giving up on homeownership. But I question whether that's, we flash ahead 10, 15 years. I bet they'll be owning houses somewhere. somehow. Maybe it'll be a condo. Maybe it'll be a house in one of those fields near you. The home ownership rate is down a bit. It peaked out about 69%. I think it's backtracked a little bit, but maybe it was a bit artificially high. We've got all this home ownership lust that was so prevalent during the boom. But I think this is Canada, and I don't see a path towards substantially less home ownership anywhere right now. I don't know what would change our minds.

29:53maybe a honking big crash, like something along the lines of what happened in the US, but I would not predict that happening in Canada. I'm actually surprised at how well people are managing to keep their mortgages on side. There's been very few bits of evidence that people are walking away from their houses. I mean, you hear a few anecdotal stories, people putting their houses up for sale because they can't afford their mortgages. But my wife and I bought our first house in Toronto in the early 90s, and I know what a crashed housing market looks like. Every house for sale is on sale for less than it sold the previous time.

30:25That's not happening. Who do you think has been hit worse in the last year or so? Renters, you mentioned rents have been soaring, or new homeowners with soaring mortgage payments? I'm going to go with renters. And I'll tell you why. I mean, the homeowners have been hit hard. We could be talking hundreds and hundreds of dollars more a month. But they've got a house, and it will appreciate in value. And so they've got a solid asset underpinning all this pain. And they can always say, look, if we can weather this and stay in our house 10 years, we can be very confident. Interest rates will probably be lower or for much of those 10 years.

30:58And we're building equity. And we have a place to live and we can do what we want. The renters are getting hammered with higher costs and they've got nothing. There's no positive in all of this. It's just cash being pulled out of their pockets. And in my personal finance world, and I've talked to other people on our Globe personal finance team about this. And I think this might be the number one personal finance problem for young people today. It's like, higher rents, what do we do about it? I mean, you can't tell people, oh, we'll just go rent in some far-flung city. It doesn't work out that way.

31:29You know, it's like the remedies available for getting affordable housing don't all apply to renting. And what we're seeing is just like these double-digit year-over-year increases consistently. It's depressing. I don't really know what to offer people. Yeah. How have Canadian housing returns compared to stock market returns for the last decade? Bevo Economics did a report on this recently. And the stock markets, you know what's interesting is what I took out of this, the Canadian stock market beats housing, but you know what beats the Canadian stock market is the S &P 500. Like there was S &P returns, TSX returns and housing.

32:05And I was thinking, well, the lesson here is have stocks, but also make sure you have a lot of American stocks. Yeah, the stock market did better than housing. and I did a look at myself at this over the past 10 years and I thought housing did a nice job. It doubled the rate of inflation, very nice outcome if you own real estate, but stocks did better. And I know people always throw the tax argument at me, which is 100 % true. You can sell a house, principal residence, tax-free, but stocks offer liquidity and I think you have to put a value on that. House is a terrible asset for using to generate any usable income.

32:39You have to borrow against your own house. and stocks you can manage, you can take profits, you can collect dividends. It's like a much more usable asset. So people always forget to put that into their comparison. But yeah, I think there's no doubt stocks have outperformed houses. And I know that doesn't really resonate with people. They don't believe it. They don't care. They really prefer houses. You must find this in your work that people just light up when they talk about real estate investing. Oh yeah. People love it. There's something about it, particularly in Canada, it seems. You know, the phrase income property, how many times have you heard that in the past year compared to the previous 20 years?

33:16People who I know who I would never expect to say, they're saying to me, what about an income property? They want it. They want it bad. And I was reading like this, part of that same report from BMO Economics comparing returns on houses and the stock markets was also noting that it's not a great time to buy an income property. Prices haven't come down all that much. Interest rates are sky high, but people are like, this is what they really want. Yeah. You mentioned the illiquidity of homes. What do you think about the idea that people can rely on their home equity as part of their retirement plan?

33:48My answer to that is how. If you need income to pay the bills, how does your house give you that? The only way to make a house provide a huge chunk of living income is to sell it and rent or downsize, downsize substantially. I mean, probably to something much smaller, much further away. I mean, unless you've got some giant mansion and you're going to go down to a two-bedroom condor or something. But I find that anecdotally, a lot of people are downsized. What they're downsizing to isn't dramatically less money than what they're selling, because a lot of people want to go much more urban into a nicer neighborhood.

34:25And so you're actually, you're downsizing, but you're moving up market in certain ways. So that aspect of it isn't going to help you generate retirement income. And so you've got this asset with appreciating equity, but how do you tap into the equity? So you've got to get a home equity line of credit. You've got to get a reverse mortgage, both expensive, very, very expensive right now. I mean, the interest rates on both of them are high, hefty. The minimum interest payment, if you want to take a couple hundred thousand dollars of equity out, that is a big nut to carry every month. So all of that considered, I say, if you are retiring and you want to supplement your income, your CPP, your OAS, your own savings, maybe you have a company pension, with your house, how do you do that?

35:07You're talking to 65 and you think you're going to live to 90. How do you make 25 years of income out of a house? I have to ask you about reverse mortgages, Rob. I've been doing this a long time. I have yet to meet anyone that's used one. Do you have much experience talking to people about successfully using reverse mortgages? No. It's an interesting point. No, I have not. By the same token, I would say that's a plus and a minus. I haven't heard a lot of complaints. One time, an advisor got in touch with me, and he had a client who had one, and he was aghast at the interest rate. This was back when interest rates were kind of low.

35:40And I, well, that's the cost of a reverse mortgage, you know, take it or leave it. But I haven't had a lot of people get in touch with me and say, I got one, and it was the worst mistake I ever made. It's the kind of product that people don't talk about a lot. This may be controversial, but it's a product that people with the high levels of financial literacy probably aren't going to get one. People who have advisors who have provided good comprehensive advice, so they just probably aren't going to get one. So it's like a mystery clientele, these people. I haven't really heard a lot of anecdotal about them.

36:11But I think that a lot of people are rich in home equity and not much else. Why would you not consider a reverse mortgage? It's very expensive, but that's the tool and that's the rate. And it's a way, I think, of getting yourself out of some financial problems using what you have, home equity. And yes, you'll get less for the house when you sell, but maybe that's not so bad. Maybe your heirs will have to settle for less so that you can pull some equity out of this and live a comfortable life. I mean, some people are just rich at home equity. And this strikes me that's a way to turn it into something useful.

36:44Yeah, and you're shifting risk to another party. So that's going to cost you something. Exactly. And you know what? It highlights this sort of residual conservatism in Canadian regards to their finances and investments. They're wide open to Bitcoin and all this stuff, but somehow they won't take a reverse mortgage out on their house. And so the people in this business, revenues are increasing steadily. The percentages are pretty impressive, but the base remains fairly small. But there are now three or even possibly four players. And the fact that we're getting more players, I think that might raise the floor on this thing, just getting the word out more.

37:20but I think we'll know what's really arrived when some big name financial player decides to get into this if it ever happens. Interesting. Now you must hear from a number of retirees. Can you give us a sense of some of the non-financial challenges that they face entering retirement? Yeah, in my newsletter, I recently put a link to a piece by a retirement expert who was talking about this feeling that retirees get, this realization that I'm not as special as I thought I was. I'm not the hero of the workforce anymore. I'm not like this esteemed colleague. I'm not this respected leader or team member.

37:59And it's a hard adjustment for hard work and boomers. And it's sort of like you walk out of this action-packed work life to crickets. And it's hard to make the adjustment. It's hard to fill your time with meaningful activities. And there's a number of people out there who can't wait to leave and they just embrace it and they play golf and all that stuff. But if you're not a golfer, or even if you like just a bit of golf, but you're used to that work induced adrenaline, and I can relate to that, then it can be a hard adjustment. And I think the advice is to think about building a number of components in your life that will help you fill your time productively.

38:35So things like physical activity and getting together with friends and finding new hobbies or things to learn about. And let's not forget what I think a lot of boomers are going to try to do. I don't know how successful it will be, is like a phased retirement. Work two or three days a week, be a consultant in your industry. I think that really resonates with a lot of people. It's great for your retirement finances too, because you're drawing down less, you're contributing a bit more, you keep your brain active. With people living to 90 and 95, I could easily see a lot of people retiring in their mid-60s and having sort of a five-year runway to full retirement.

39:11How much do you think retirees should be budgeting for dental and medical expenses? Well, I asked around about this. I asked around on LinkedIn. More and more, I'm sort of putting questions out to planners and advisors on LinkedIn. And sometimes I get a lot of good feedback. And on this, there was a little sort of mini consensus about$5 ,000 to$6 ,000 would probably do it. And there was a lot of sort of smart ways of thinking about it. Like if you have a plan, figure out what the cost of everything that you, the value of the plan, talk about a health plan through work, and then mark it up by 10 % because you're getting older.

39:45That was one way to do it. Another was factoring your own personal health. A small minority of employers offer retirement health plans to keep them on the health plan. So there's that option as well. But by and large, I think$5 ,000 or$6 ,000 would cover it. If you've got like problems with your teeth, a couple of implants could probably use up that amount in a year. So that might be want to be more, but it's a good reminder that when you are working and if you are part of a company health plan, make sure you get maximum dental usage out of it. So that when you retire, your teeth are in really good shape because that can be a big money sock in retirement.

40:19Yeah. Those are big numbers. Big numbers. And when you're doing sort of a little retirement planning, I've done this in the last couple of years, you know, what am I spending now? What will I be spending in retirement? You just basically put this ledger down. So obviously the big one that comes off is in retirement, I'm not saving for retirement. But that's a big expense for me right now. What is new? Health. But who reminds you about that? If you've had a company health plan for decades, you're just used to paying the co-pay amount. Oh, okay,$5 on my prescription,$30 on my dental visit. You think dental visits cost$30.

40:52And in fact, it's hard to even engage with what the underlying numbers are. The dentist I go to, it could be$300,$400 for a comprehensive checkup and cleaning. And that's a big expense just to come out of the blue twice a year when you're retired. Speaking of surveys you do, do you have any sense of how many parents are actually helping their kids financially, their adult kids? Oh, 90%. 90? 90 % are providing, well, 92 actually, if I'm going from memory, are providing some sort of financial help. Now, it could even be they were still on the family cell phone plan for when they were younger and the parents just kept the plan going.

41:28It could be that the parents are paying their car insurance. It could be because they're on some family plan. It could be they're giving them cash every now and then to buy groceries. It could be they're helping with rent. It could be they're helping with home down payments. It could be that they're providing shelter for them. This is the new normal of parenting. One of the most interesting personal finance stories that I follow is how the cost of being a parent keeps rising and rising and rising. And so the latest entry in my notes on this is the Taylor Swift phenomenon. And how many parents are thinking, I have to get my kids tickets to Taylor Swift.

42:01How much is this going to cost? Well, you try to get the tickets online and you can't get them. And you're thinking, my kid really wants it. And parents feel they have to deliver. I read a story on the CBC website about some woman who got scammed in Toronto out of thousands of dollars that she felt she had to get her kid tickets now we can say oh that's what is wrong with these parents but they feel it and to me that is a phenomenon now parents feel desperate to help their kids get to a certain level of affluence and success and they're paying out of pocket money to make it happen so it's like concert tickets for their teens and houses for their 20-somethings.

42:39And it's even more basic support, like hoping to cover rent and groceries and stuff. I mean, I think there's a lot of parental anxiety about how their kids are doing and how well they're managing the cost of living. Do you have a sense of how that's affecting parents' retirement savings? I don't. I don't. And I'm really curious about that. I'm really curious to see the home down payment money that's been handed out. Where did that come from. CIBC Economics did a report about two years ago, and it was so interesting. I mean, phenomenal amounts of money. Billions in aggregate have been transferred from parents to young people.

43:15There's all this talk about the great wealth transfer. Well, I wonder how much of it's been drained out already by parents giving down payment help. I think the average was something like$80 ,000. So where does that come from? I mean, there's a lot of high net worth families where they can reallocate money. But I suspect that some of it is line of credit money, and some of it is money pulled out of TFSA and RRSP. So how will that affect retirement? Well, it's hard to say. It's a very abstract thing. Some people could say, well, I'll take one trip a year instead of two, and that will account for this block of capital I took out to give my kids.

43:48I think we won't really know. Retirement saving, it's in a state of flux right now because there's expensive housing. There's this changing mindset of young people that, although they're pretty astute about personal finances, this idea of sacrificing and saving for retirement, they're not feeling it. And they're more in tune with short-term needs. So there's that. I'll be very interested to see how well people retire in the next 50, 60 years. I don't think I'll be around to watch it, but it will be interesting. Are people going to sock away like the boomers got it like they knew they had to do it plus they had all this home equity and they had rising stock markets but today people are very in tune with living in the here and now and i don't want to fault them for that because there's a lot of reasons why that's so but it does make me wonder about their retirement of course what's the impact of their parents of having to help their kids i know a lot of parents have to be thinking i don't see how my kid's ever going to get a house?

44:45What can we do to help with that? And they will help to their utmost. And I think a lot of families are going to be having these conversations because when you look at what incomes are and what houses are, we've had all this economic disruption in the past year or two, and it hasn't helped a bit. Now, what about the flip side, adult kids supporting their parents? Yeah, that's happening too. I said a minute ago that I think young people are actually pretty astute financially. A lot of them are thinking, my parents, I don't have a high confidence level that they know what they're doing. And so I'm going to open up a line of conversation with them and ask and see what's what.

45:20So in some cultures, as I was mentioning earlier, families live together until the young people move out. But I also in these cultures, it's expected that young people will step in to help their parents if required, and they may live together, they may provide financial support. So I think there are millennials and Gen Xers now who are realizing their parents maybe aren't quite that well set for retirement. And they're grappling with what can be done about that. And you asked me what people are emailing about. Way, way down the list are emails about, I'm worried about my parents. Just had an email from someone saying that their parents came to Canada in the early 2000s.

46:02They're not entitled to full OAS and GIS. they have a very small CPP and it's not enough. So what else? So that's an extreme one, but that's one to keep an eye on because I think that you can live a pretty fun life and then all of a sudden cut to retirement and the money isn't there to keep it going. And then your kids are looking at you saying, what's happening here? And families will have to solve this. You know, this sandwich phenomenon of supporting your elderly parents and your kids in some way, That's a thing. That is big. The phrase was coined about 10 years ago, but I think it's really coming into its own now.

46:40So do you have a sense of what adult kids are actually helping their parents with financially? Well, I think some are helping them with cover rent or it's almost the reciprocal of parents helping their kids. You know, it's like, what are the big costs? How much do you have? What can you not afford? Let me give you some cash. I think a lot of times it's just cash. Here, let me help you with the rent this month. You need a plumber? I'll cover that cost. your car broke down i'll pay the cost to the mechanic that sort of thing it's on an ad hoc basis sort of stepping in and parents helping kids is sort of we all know it's there i mentioned earlier it's not talked a lot about but kids helping their parents that's a really quiet topic i put a survey into my newsletter on it and the newsletter that i do has a pretty big circulation and i can get between one and six thousand replies on it so i'm using it more and more to ask questions that i'm not seeing being answered in other polling and i put it out in our globe universe.

47:33It's a fairly affluent universe, but a lot of the newsletter subscribers aren't globe subscribers. They just read it. And so I'm getting a broader selection of people and it's really helping me understand what's going on. And there's some really interesting things that are happening that aren't really getting a broader attention yet, because I guess they haven't really created waves that are showing up in the big economic indicators. Do you think there's conversations that should be happening between those two groups, like adults to parents, regardless of which way the support might be going? That's a really good point, Cameron.

48:02I do think so. It's almost like you could do a support group. It's like we're not out there to find fault or to find who's vulnerable and didn't do what they should have. It's like, how are you doing? Here's how I'm doing. And like, what are your thoughts on retirement? What are your thoughts on saving for a house? Maybe it's just exchanging intel on what you're seeing and what successes you're having. And maybe it's on you're asking for help. Like, I see that where we are now and I don't see it all working out. and what could you do to give me a lift, you know, even if it's advice. Because, you know, parents have, even if they're not great money managers, they've been through the wars, they've seen everything.

48:39And I think younger people can really benefit from that. It's not in my day, this was happening. It's here's how I got through this difficulty. We had our mortgage payments surge like in 1980. I couldn't believe we were paying 20 % and, you know, our mortgage payments surge. Here's how we got through it. And here's how quickly we renewed into a lower mortgage. Kind of experience is valuable. So yeah, no, I think intra-familial discussions about money, maybe at all ages, just to sort of compare notes and have a state of the union discussion. I'm curious what you would do in this situation. So I had a 20-year-old plus or minus family member who showed some interest in financial planning.

49:13So I recommended and gave her a couple of books and recommended a couple of podcasts. What would you do to try to engage the younger generation in learning about not necessarily investments, but the whole financial planning process and the benefits of that? That's interesting. People ask me that a lot, and I'm kind of stuck for an answer because nobody's sort of done like the TikTok version of the basics of financial planning, turned it into something that's easy to digest, fun, delivered it in an engaging sort of way. And so why open field? But I think podcasts are the way to go because I find that young people really resonate with this way of taking in information.

49:51It just works for them. And we do a podcast with a colleague and I, and it's called Stress Test. It's aimed at millennials and Gen Zs. And it's not about financial planning per se, but it is about finance, personal finance, investing, houses, all the costs and all the challenges and all the questions and a mix of priorities. and we've had a really, really good pickup on it. And there are other ones too, other podcasts as well. In fact, if you look at the business podcasts on Spotify or Apple, there's a number of good personal finance ones in there. Some of them are a bit too tilted towards investing and what's hot and real estate and Bitcoin and all that stuff.

50:30I would avoid those, but there's a lot on what are people worried about with respect to money? How are they getting past it? What's working for them? What are the big challenges? what are the pitfalls and that sort of thing. And I find that people who've never read the Globe and Mail stop and say, I listen to your podcast. And they're all young and it seems to resonate with them. And I'm a bit surprised to the extent that's happening. So that would be my recommendation podcasts. I think that's a good recommendation. It's interesting how quickly the discussions often go to stock picking or Bitcoin or something in some app without even the basic knowledge of what is a TFSA?

51:04What is a 100 savings account? What is an RRSP? What is an FHSA? Just the account types. My theory on that is that young people are hungry for financial home runs. They feel like, I need wealth and I need it quick. So what's going to do that for me? Oh, Bitcoin, that's going up like 200%. Get me some Bitcoin. Is it GameStop shares that are doing that? I'm piling right into that. Their radar is pinging all the time for something that will give them a jumpstart. and they don't care about the niceties and whether it should be in their TFSA and all that stuff. They want the money and they want it now.

51:39And that's why they're wide open to all this stuff. And that's why some of the content providers are right on that. And how do I get years? I'm going to talk about real estate investing and flipping. And this is a great time to get in on it. And Bitcoin had its moment still out there, but I mean, crypto wasn't quite as compelling as it was. But there will always be that sort of thing for young people. And I think they feel pressured that I need a house down payment. How do I get it? Well, maybe if I strike it rich investing, I'll get that. And so the other things will fall into line. I mean, they'll learn by doing.

52:08But I do think, by and large, young people are pretty good at knowing the basics. Like they understand TFSAs. I was just looking at some TFSA contribution data, and I was surprised at the amount. Like even 19 and 20-year-olds had in their TFSAs. You know, there's a lot of money flowing into these accounts. The usage of them is pretty good. I think a lot of them have set themselves up with regular plans because you look at 20 and 30-somethings, they're all making 20 TFSA contributions a year. That means I'm putting little bits in when I can. Really smart. If I said to you, can you afford$5 ,000 for a TFSA?

52:44You'd say, no way, man. But if I said, what if you did a bunch of little contributions? You'd think, yeah, that's doable. They're doing that. So I think they're doing some really smart things, but there is a hunger for something that will make them a lot of money quick. That's what we see too. Makes a ton of sense. I think that's the last of our questions, Rob. We're calling this episode, The State of Canadian Personal Finance with Rob Carrick. I think that's exactly what we got from you. Awesome. It was a great chat, guys. Yeah. Great to have you back on. So much fun. Thanks, Rob. Thanks, guys.